Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[The Hobbit] The the Battle of the the Five Armies trailer is out!

1192022242577

Posts

  • RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Brian888 wrote: »
    I've always thought it was fascinating that there's a bit of a Manichean vibe in the LotR, and particularly in the Silmarillion. It's not a perfect mapping by any means, because Eru still makes Arda via the Valar and Maiar, but it's interesting that Arda is pretty much irreparably corrupted by Melkor right at the beginning of things. Middle-Earth is beautiful and wondrous, but inherently flawed (IIRC, Eru will eventually blow the whole thing up and start over, probably with the help of Men). This is quite a bit different than the current bog-standard Christian idea of the quality of Creation.

    Indeed. The bits that are the most similiar to quasi-christian ideas fit with versions of Christianity (or closely related ofshoots) that were deemed Hereticial and quite frimly eradicated once one particular brand of Christians gained the powers of the imperial roman state.

    Mogroth alone is nearly as powerful, in his terms of power (raw strength with which to dominate rather than wisdom), as all the Valar combined. And he could only be banished from the world in a conflict so terrible it destroyed the entire western end of the continent.

    -
    AManFromEarth - yeah I think we do basicially agree on the subject

    RiemannLives on
  • RiemannLivesRiemannLives Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I think overall my objections to any strong / overt links between LOTR and Christianity is this:

    while the cosmology of LOTR contains a God it does not contain a Jesus. And it seems to me pretty hard to have Christianity without a Christ.

    RiemannLives on
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    To say that LoTR didn't have huge swathes of the Christian myth is entirely incorrect. You talk about the need to wash away sins and go to a better place. That happens, it's called The Undying Lands, or Aman. Who could go there? Only Elves who had completed their time in Middle-Earth, or their guests, such as the ring bearers. This is a direct analog to heaven, and needing to be privileged and chosen to enter heaven. It may not deal directly with the sin aspect, but it absolutely parallels the myth of a chosen few being gifted eternal life.

    There is the direct analog to the Lucifer myth, with Melkor. One of the chosen Valar (arch-angels) of Eru falls from grace after attempting to usurp Eru's power. He then wreaks havoc on the other through his evil machinations. Sound familiar?

    There are an incredibly number of parallels easily drawn between Christ and Frodo, outside of the divine conception.

    While he may not have been deliberately attempting to create an easy to read primer to Christianity for children, which Lewis was, you can't deny Tolkien's religion heavily influenced the Lord of the Rings. It's not even a kind of loosey goosey influence, it's very stark and easy to pick up if you pay attention. It isn't egregious though, which is why most people accept it as valid mythology.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • Brian888Brian888 Registered User
    There's also Tolkien's struggle over orcs. He was consequently battling internally over whether orcs were born evil or were pretty much inevitably evil because of how they're raised, the battle being prompted by his serious religious objection to the idea that someone (even a monstrous creature like an orc) can be born evil.

  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    And there is a Christ in LoTR, his name is Frodo. He's not divine, but he is absolutely a messiah figure. Carrying the burdens of the world such that others don't have to suffer under the yoke of evil. That is the messiah myth. The divine conception part was added much later.

    He is even invited to go to Aman with the elves, because of bearing that burden. It had changed him forever, made him unable to live in the twilight lands. He had seen tot much, knew too much.

    Frodo is absolutely a messiah figure.

    GnomeTank on
    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    I don't get why it's so hard to admit that christianity is one of many religions influencing LOTR.

    I think even Tolkien was a little too sensitive on this issue, hell he tried to act like the war didn't influence it at all either.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    I don't get why it's so hard to admit that christianity is one of many religions influencing LOTR.

    I think even Tolkien was a little too sensitive on this issue, hell he tried to act like the war didn't influence it at all either.

    He actually wasn't sensitive about the Christianity part. He was pretty open that his faith influenced the books. The war part, he acknowledged the influence, but didn't want to discuss it. He was spiky about it, and he had every right to be. He saw first hand the horrors of WW1 trench combat. That changes you.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    I don't have my copy of The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien at hand, but in one of the letters he himself calls LOTR "a fundamentally religious and fundamentally Catholic work." He also mentions that the entire Mount Doom sequence was written as a meditation on the Lord's Prayer, particularly the lines "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those that trespass against us; and lead us not into evil, but deliver us from temptation." Frodo is only able to complete his quest because of his showing grace to Gollum, and in the end Frodo does not conquer the temptation of the ring; rather, he is delivered from it in deus ex machina fashion.

  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    Frodo is closer to Jesus, Aragorn is closer to the Jewish messiah.

    steam_sig.png
  • HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    Well, LOTR is more varied than just "the moral is wisdom" because it also has sacrifice, destiny, moving beyond your comfort zone, redemption, good v evil, rebirth, death, etc etc etc

    Narnia is much simpler and does suffer from its dogmatic connections.

    Through our (mostly) western european lens, christianity is how most of us get a lot of those values sent to us, but it can also be found in pretty much every mythology on the planet.

    It's sort of why the term Judeo-Christian values is kind of a red herring.

    But, to ignore Tolkein's religious influence is to be a silly goose. The fact that Lewis' was stronger does not negate Tolkein's.

    that's just the thing though. I've heard people try and do a hand-wavy kind of stand-back-and-squint to try and claim that in some way they can never put into specifics there is some Christian things in LOTR.

    I could totally be convinced of that. If they could ever give any specific examples from the actual books.

    There are two concepts of evil competing against each other in LotR, evil as the absence of the good, 'the Shadow', and evil as an opposing force, 'the Dark Power'. The former is fairly standard Catholic theology, while the later is borderline dualistic heresy. However, Tolkien probably found the former to be lacking based on his experiences in WWI and later WWII. The claim that the one hurt most by evil acts is the one performing them begins to ring a little hollow faced with the horrors of either. One could see the LotR as a method of reconciling the two, and also understanding what it means to be moral when faced with evil.

    For a more details see Tom Shippey's "JRR Tolkien: Author of the Century".

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
  • GnomeTankGnomeTank Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote: »
    Frodo is closer to Jesus, Aragorn is closer to the Jewish messiah.

    I'll agree with this. I never really thought of Aragorn as the classic Jewish messiah figure, but you're right. It's curious that the new archetypes are represented by different characters. I wonder if that was intentional, or just a coincidence.

    Sagroth wrote: »
    Oh c'mon FyreWulff, no one's gonna pay to visit Uranus.
    Steam: Brainling, XBL / PSN: GnomeTank, NintendoID: Brainling, FF14: Zillius Rosh
  • lu tzelu tze Registered User
    I mean
    Spoiler:
    Psst.
    Spoiler:

    World's best janitor
  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    lu tze wrote: »
    I mean
    Spoiler:
    Psst.
    Spoiler:

    Psst Psst
    Spoiler:

    Lh96QHG.png
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    I...what? Now I know why I didn't read Narnia.

    steam_sig.png
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    The last book is basically a less fucked up version of revelations.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • AtomikaAtomika Social Justice Mage + 12 charm/-5 lockpickingRegistered User regular
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    I think part of what makes The Hobbit such a good children's story is that the narrator is involved in the story and obviously cannot wait to spoil little tidbits here and there to keep the child interested.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • MetalMagusMetalMagus Too Serious Registered User regular
    Chiming in on the Christian influence on LoTR. If you watch one of the extra features on Tolkien in the EE of FoTR, there's a discussion about Tolkien's concept of applicability. Essentially, it's his subtle approach of applying his beliefs to his work rather than Lewis' heavy-handed allegory (as mentioned earlier, Tolkien has a very public dislike of allegory).

    There's also discussion about the end of the book and the concept of, what I think I remember them describing as "divine catastrophe." Rather than everything going to shit for no reason, divine intervention plays out in the form of a miracle (everything from Gollum inadvertently destroying the ring up to the eagles rescuing Sam and Frodo).

    It's one of my favorite features on the EE, definitely worth watching.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Kotaku seems to think a LEGO Lord of the Rings game is a done deal.

    That would be pretty great. The LEGO games are always fun.

    Lh96QHG.png
  • HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    MetalMagus wrote: »
    Chiming in on the Christian influence on LoTR. If you watch one of the extra features on Tolkien in the EE of FoTR, there's a discussion about Tolkien's concept of applicability. Essentially, it's his subtle approach of applying his beliefs to his work rather than Lewis' heavy-handed allegory (as mentioned earlier, Tolkien has a very public dislike of allegory).

    There's also discussion about the end of the book and the concept of, what I think I remember them describing as "divine catastrophe." Rather than everything going to shit for no reason, divine intervention plays out in the form of a miracle (everything from Gollum inadvertently destroying the ring up to the eagles rescuing Sam and Frodo).

    It's one of my favorite features on the EE, definitely worth watching.

    The Tolkien-coined word you're looking for is 'eucatastrophe.'
    Eucatastrophe is a term coined by J. R. R. Tolkien which refers to the sudden turn of events at the end of a story which ensure that the protagonist does not meet some terrible, impending, and very plausible doom. He formed the word by affixing the Greek prefix eu, meaning good, to catastrophe, the word traditionally used in classically-inspired literary criticism to refer to the "unraveling" or conclusion of a drama's plot. For Tolkien, the term appears to have had a thematic meaning that went beyond its implied meaning in terms of form. In his definition as outlined in his 1947 essay On Fairy-Stories,[1] eucatastrophe is a fundamental part of his conception of mythopoeia. Though Tolkien's interest is in myth, it is also connected to the gospels; Tolkien calls the Incarnation the eucatastrophe of "human history" and the Resurrection the eucatastrophe of the Incarnation.

  • Unco-ordinatedUnco-ordinated Registered User regular
    lu tze wrote: »
    I mean
    Spoiler:
    Psst.
    Spoiler:

    Psst Psst
    Spoiler:

    Yeah that was awful, just took me right out of the story even as a kid. Worst part for me was
    Spoiler:

    Steam ID - LiquidSolid170 | PSN ID - LiquidSolid
  • lu tzelu tze Registered User
    edited May 2012
    Cantido wrote: »
    I...what? Now I know why I didn't read Narnia.
    This is silly, I read them over and over as a kid, they're fucking great.

    I can understand you not wanting to read them now, since they're children's books... but ever? That's pretty lame.

    Also who cares what happens at the end, since The Horse and his Boy is arguably the best book anyway... and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise in their stupid mouth.

    lu tze on
    World's best janitor
  • XaquinXaquin Right behind you!Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote: »
    I...what? Now I know why I didn't read Narnia.

    They aren't half bad. However, just like the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy books, it's wise to steer clear of the last one.

    also, yes YESSSSSSSS to the Lego LoTR Game!

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    I don't really want to go back on a CS Lewis tangent but I will admit something that I noticed that is pretty damn funny.

    His children book series is secretly very preachy while seeming to be broadly fantasy while his obvious religious works are very not preachy like the Screwtape Letters.

    Well there is a bit of overt stuff like the best trick the devil ever pulled was to make man not believe in him but honestly? Just a good book on how to not let your personal demons get the best of you.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • AtomikaAtomika Social Justice Mage + 12 charm/-5 lockpickingRegistered User regular
    edited June 2012
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote: »

    Broken link.

    Worked for moi.

    Michael Dorn wants to do a direct to DVD Worf movie. Hmm...

    Oh, and Lego LOTR's= pretty cool if they keep the actors lines in :D

  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Zhu-Li, do the thing! Registered User regular
    Well, Lego games have traditionally been silent (aside from crazy little grunts and such).

    Then again the upcoming DC game will be voiced so who knows.

    3DS: 0344-9335-6762
  • cloudeaglecloudeagle Zhu-Li, do the thing! Registered User regular
    New production blog!



    This time it's on the studio. The logistics are fascinating, plus there's a smattering of shooting, plenty of blurred-out things, a new actor we haven't seen before and plenty of silliness.

    3DS: 0344-9335-6762
  • iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    Don't know if I like the apparent changes to the barrel scenes, with them all not packed in before they get tossed.

    I dunno, I take you seriously on some topics and dick rider is your profession
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Death Groupie Registered User regular
    So it looks like Peter Jackson gained back all the pre-King Kong weight. Must be stressful as hell shooting Tolkien again.

    steam_sig.png
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    That's awesome movie making accumulating in his subcutaneous layer.

    The facial hair is where he stores his slow-motion zoom-in-on-the-face shots.

  • jimb213jimb213 Registered User regular
    cloudeagle wrote: »
    New production blog!



    This time it's on the studio. The logistics are fascinating, plus there's a smattering of shooting, plenty of blurred-out things, a new actor we haven't seen before and plenty of silliness.

    that was freaking awesome!

  • chamberlainchamberlain Registered User regular
    Mini-Legolas is the best Legolas.

    The list never changes: http://www.infinitebacklog.com
    Chamberlain.jpg
  • AtomikaAtomika Social Justice Mage + 12 charm/-5 lockpickingRegistered User regular
    Hobbit news, everyone!

    - There will be a big shin-dig for The Hobbit next week at Comic-Con. No word on what framerate they'll be using. I'm hoping 24fps. McKellan and Freeman will be there with Jackson, possibly premiering a new trailer.

    - Today is the last day of photography! 266 days in total. The entire LOTR trilogy shot for 438 days with a final cut time of 638 minutes. By that math, the two Hobbit films might run around 6+ hours (in a potential Extended Edition).

    - New pics from EW! Gandalf! Bilbo! Thorin! Barrels! Elrond and Galadriel! Orcrist! Gollum! Mirkwood!

  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    6 hours?! That...is a lot of one children's* novel.

    * By children I mean "people not too-cool to read The Hobbit"

    steam_sig.png
  • AtomikaAtomika Social Justice Mage + 12 charm/-5 lockpickingRegistered User regular
    Cantido wrote: »
    6 hours?! That...is a lot of one children's* novel.

    * By children I mean "people not too-cool to read The Hobbit"

    Well, it's going to be fairly heavily embellished.

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    The entire audio book for the hobbit is only around 9 hours if I remember rightly.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote: »
    6 hours?! That...is a lot of one children's* novel.

    * By children I mean "people not too-cool to read The Hobbit"

    Well, it's going to be fairly heavily embellished.

    I guess we're going to see a lot more of every setting. More Hobbiton, the Misty Mountains, etc.

    steam_sig.png
  • AtomikaAtomika Social Justice Mage + 12 charm/-5 lockpickingRegistered User regular
    edited July 2012
    Cantido wrote: »
    Cantido wrote: »
    6 hours?! That...is a lot of one children's* novel.

    * By children I mean "people not too-cool to read The Hobbit"

    Well, it's going to be fairly heavily embellished.

    I guess we're going to see a lot more of every setting. More Hobbiton, the Misty Mountains, etc.

    I've gathered from set reports that we're going to see a lot of Hobbiton, at least as much as we saw in Fellowship. As well, we're going to see a lot of events and places that just weren't in the book at all, like the White Council and the Tomb of the Necromancer and whathaveyou. Plus, the book-ending pieces with Elijah Wood and Ian Holm.

    Atomika on
Sign In or Register to comment.