oh wow if we have our kids in school longer they perform better no matter how poorly the teachers are evaluated SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT
Sorry, I was directing that at Hunter. I'm sure if Obama's idea of extending school days goes through, kids will still not know math, but will be bored longer.
Let's do your plan of nothing because work is hard.
Just throw your hands up and enjoy floundering.
That's what I'm saying? Where do you see that? What I've been asking you, the expert, for three pages now is how do you motivate students to even try to learn, much less apply this knowledge to a test? And how do you put this on the teacher whose expertise is chemistry and not parenting?
Isn't motivating kids to learn kind of part of your job? Like shouldn't you know that and chemistry both? Maybe?
No. I mean it is, because people in America expect someone else to solve their problems for them, but it shouldn't be. This mindset is why this nation is fucked. I'm not a teacher anymore, will never step in such a building again until my son is old enough to go, but Jesus are we fucked if we expect strangers to instill our youth with a value for knowledge.
You act as if having unreasonable demands for perfection placed on you is something unique to teachers. It is in fact not.
A teacher is expected to make reasonable efforts toward some hypothetical child who doesn't give two shits and only shows up because the cops make him, not the least of which in this situation is that you are wasting a lot of police time if you don't, apparently.
If a teacher has 25 students who can't do math and ends up with 14 students who can perform at their grade level and 11 who can't, is he a failure?
There are bars for evaluation that are not divine perfection.
How do you measure whether this hypothetical teacher has made "reasonable efforts" toward this waste of space? And what is defined as "reasonable?"
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ZoelI suppose... I'd put it onRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
Did he or she take documented actions to improve the performance of all underperforming students?
How did the student respond to these actions?
What follow up actions were taken?
Were progress reports void of derogatory comments or the personal opinions of the teacher?
Zoel on
A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
Did he or she take documented actions to improve the performance of all underperforming students?
Such as? Called home to report bad grades? This is a requirement already, but still the problem abounds.
How did the student respond to these actions?
This already happens and is in direct relation to whether or not anyone on the other end of the phone cares.
What follow up actions were taken?
Depends on the parent.
Were progress reports void of derogatory comments or the personal opinions of the teacher?
Most comments are standard and are not customizable.
Despite these things, the grades, graduation rates, and other such numbers are, without explanation, held for or against the school. Whether or not the parent cares or even returns the phone call are absent from the report.
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ZoelI suppose... I'd put it onRegistered Userregular
Did he or she take documented actions to improve the performance of all underperforming students?
Such as? Called home to report bad grades? This is a requirement already, but still the problem abounds.
How did the student respond to these actions?
This already happens and is in direct relation to whether or not anyone on the other end of the phone cares.
What follow up actions were taken?
Depends on the parent.
Were progress reports void of derogatory comments or the personal opinions of the teacher?
Most comments are standard and are not customizable.
Despite these things, the grades, graduation rates, and other such numbers are, without explanation, held for or against the school. Whether or not the parent cares or even returns the phone call are absent from the report.
That is clearly a problem with the report you use and not with the idea of reports.
Grades, graduation rates, and stuff like that is held against the school because that's how job performance works. You're evaluated on that because those rates are what people care about.
Salesmen are evaluated on the number of sales. Whether or not they had a good or bad pool of cold calls is similarly omitted from their performance standards.
Zoel on
A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
Did he or she take documented actions to improve the performance of all underperforming students?
Such as? Called home to report bad grades? This is a requirement already, but still the problem abounds.
How did the student respond to these actions?
This already happens and is in direct relation to whether or not anyone on the other end of the phone cares.
What follow up actions were taken?
Depends on the parent.
Were progress reports void of derogatory comments or the personal opinions of the teacher?
Most comments are standard and are not customizable.
Despite these things, the grades, graduation rates, and other such numbers are, without explanation, held for or against the school. Whether or not the parent cares or even returns the phone call are absent from the report.
That is clearly a problem with the report you use and not with the idea of reports.
Grades, graduation rates, and stuff like that is held against the school because that's how job performance works. You're evaluated on that because those rates are what people care about.
Salesmen are evaluated on the number of sales. Whether or not they had a good or bad pool of cold calls is similarly omitted from their performance standards.
Well there ya go. Coffee is for closers.
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ZoelI suppose... I'd put it onRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
It's true that by changing the metrics that you evaluate people on you may be able to improve performance in the metrics you initially measured and graded people on. It's also true that you can't always hold a teacher personally accountable because one student did poorly or even because their whole class did poorly, but that doesn't mean accountability goes out the window.
On some level, those things have to be baked into the evaluation of a teacher because there's not any way around the objective.
Zoel on
A magician gives you a ring that, when worn, will let you see the world as it truly is.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Did he or she take documented actions to improve the performance of all underperforming students?
Such as? Called home to report bad grades? This is a requirement already, but still the problem abounds.
How did the student respond to these actions?
This already happens and is in direct relation to whether or not anyone on the other end of the phone cares.
What follow up actions were taken?
Depends on the parent.
Were progress reports void of derogatory comments or the personal opinions of the teacher?
Most comments are standard and are not customizable.
Despite these things, the grades, graduation rates, and other such numbers are, without explanation, held for or against the school. Whether or not the parent cares or even returns the phone call are absent from the report.
You're acting like these things can't or won't be taken in consideration and they'll just start firing teachers recklessly.
Did he or she take documented actions to improve the performance of all underperforming students?
Such as? Called home to report bad grades? This is a requirement already, but still the problem abounds.
How did the student respond to these actions?
This already happens and is in direct relation to whether or not anyone on the other end of the phone cares.
What follow up actions were taken?
Depends on the parent.
Were progress reports void of derogatory comments or the personal opinions of the teacher?
Most comments are standard and are not customizable.
Despite these things, the grades, graduation rates, and other such numbers are, without explanation, held for or against the school. Whether or not the parent cares or even returns the phone call are absent from the report.
You're acting like these things can't or won't be taken in consideration and they'll just start firing teachers recklessly.
I am acting that way, because they aren't taken into consideration currently, but they're not currently firing teachers. What I'm wondering is, how do you consider this?
It's true that by changing the metrics that you evaluate people on you may be able to improve performance in the metrics you initially measured and graded people on. It's also true that you can't always hold a teacher personally accountable because one student did poorly or even because their whole class did poorly, but that doesn't mean accountability goes out the window.
On some level, those things have to be baked into the evaluation of a teacher because there's not any way around the objective.
There are tons of paths to the objective, like what's happening now. You teach to the test that the kids have to take, you encourage them not to take the test that they don't, and you fudge the numbers you're in control of.
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ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
Did he or she take documented actions to improve the performance of all underperforming students?
Such as? Called home to report bad grades? This is a requirement already, but still the problem abounds.
How did the student respond to these actions?
This already happens and is in direct relation to whether or not anyone on the other end of the phone cares.
What follow up actions were taken?
Depends on the parent.
Were progress reports void of derogatory comments or the personal opinions of the teacher?
Most comments are standard and are not customizable.
Despite these things, the grades, graduation rates, and other such numbers are, without explanation, held for or against the school. Whether or not the parent cares or even returns the phone call are absent from the report.
You're acting like these things can't or won't be taken in consideration and they'll just start firing teachers recklessly.
I am acting that way, because they aren't taken into consideration currently, but they're not currently firing teachers. What I'm wondering is, how do you consider this?
So you choose to remain incorrigible until the perfect proposal is plopped right in your lap. Jesus! Why even get up in the morning?
Did he or she take documented actions to improve the performance of all underperforming students?
Such as? Called home to report bad grades? This is a requirement already, but still the problem abounds.
How did the student respond to these actions?
This already happens and is in direct relation to whether or not anyone on the other end of the phone cares.
What follow up actions were taken?
Depends on the parent.
Were progress reports void of derogatory comments or the personal opinions of the teacher?
Most comments are standard and are not customizable.
Despite these things, the grades, graduation rates, and other such numbers are, without explanation, held for or against the school. Whether or not the parent cares or even returns the phone call are absent from the report.
You're acting like these things can't or won't be taken in consideration and they'll just start firing teachers recklessly.
I am acting that way, because they aren't taken into consideration currently, but they're not currently firing teachers. What I'm wondering is, how do you consider this?
So you choose to remain incorrigible until the perfect proposal is plopped right in your lap. Jesus! Why even get up in the morning.
I could take the other path, "There's no reason there can't be something." This is a fun intellectual exercise, but I prefer realism. Take your ideas (do you have them? Run down the concrete points we've come up with here) and think about the political and legal elements. "Will this stand up on the ballot/in court?"
ButtersA glass of some milksRegistered Userregular
edited October 2010
You're not being realistic at all you're just denying the plausibility of everything a handful of people on the internet are suggesting. You're not adding anything to this debate whatsoever. We did provide ideas. You didn't.
Ah well, fuck it. I'm not a teacher anymore, my kid will be educated by hook or by crook if necessary, and I'll hopefully be dead before the next few batches of idiots who've been robbed by a school system dead-set on gaming the system rather than teaching them anything is in charge of anything important. Either that or maybe my Chinese overlord will be kind to me in my old age.
You're not being realistic at all you're just denying the plausibility of everything a handful of people on the internet are suggesting. You're not adding anything to this debate whatsoever. We did provide ideas. You didn't.
Man, I was in there watching it not work. I've seen these ideas rise and fall (or most often, not even be used). I can tell you unequivocally that the system is fucked and any change will be worked around and gamed, just like NCLB has been. The brainstorming session is pointless, believe me. But since you won't, continue on. I'll take my nay-saying out of it.
You're not being realistic at all you're just denying the plausibility of everything a handful of people on the internet are suggesting. You're not adding anything to this debate whatsoever. We did provide ideas. You didn't.
Man, I was in there watching it not work. I've seen these ideas rise and fall (or most often, not even be used). I can tell you unequivocally that the system is fucked and any change will be worked around and gamed, just like NCLB has been. The brainstorming session is pointless, believe me. But since you won't, continue on. I'll take my nay-saying out of it.
Believe me I can understand being jaded by a fucked up field and if you've thrown your hands up and given up I understand. But if you by your own admission refuse to believe there's no answer than you've sort of forfeited your right to debate the subject any further as far as I am concerned.
I don't think we have the right idea yet and won't for quite some time but recognition of the lack of accountability in the field and teachers unions past abilities to protect those that cheapen the profession is one that is long overdue. It's one of those things politicians have willfully ignored for far too long.
Posts
How do you measure whether this hypothetical teacher has made "reasonable efforts" toward this waste of space? And what is defined as "reasonable?"
How did the student respond to these actions?
What follow up actions were taken?
Were progress reports void of derogatory comments or the personal opinions of the teacher?
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
Despite these things, the grades, graduation rates, and other such numbers are, without explanation, held for or against the school. Whether or not the parent cares or even returns the phone call are absent from the report.
That is clearly a problem with the report you use and not with the idea of reports.
Grades, graduation rates, and stuff like that is held against the school because that's how job performance works. You're evaluated on that because those rates are what people care about.
Salesmen are evaluated on the number of sales. Whether or not they had a good or bad pool of cold calls is similarly omitted from their performance standards.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
Well there ya go. Coffee is for closers.
On some level, those things have to be baked into the evaluation of a teacher because there's not any way around the objective.
However, the ring will never leave your finger, and you will be unable to ever describe to another living person what you see.
You're acting like these things can't or won't be taken in consideration and they'll just start firing teachers recklessly.
I am acting that way, because they aren't taken into consideration currently, but they're not currently firing teachers. What I'm wondering is, how do you consider this?
There are tons of paths to the objective, like what's happening now. You teach to the test that the kids have to take, you encourage them not to take the test that they don't, and you fudge the numbers you're in control of.
So you choose to remain incorrigible until the perfect proposal is plopped right in your lap. Jesus! Why even get up in the morning?
I could take the other path, "There's no reason there can't be something." This is a fun intellectual exercise, but I prefer realism. Take your ideas (do you have them? Run down the concrete points we've come up with here) and think about the political and legal elements. "Will this stand up on the ballot/in court?"
So that I can quit the profession, which I did.
Man, I was in there watching it not work. I've seen these ideas rise and fall (or most often, not even be used). I can tell you unequivocally that the system is fucked and any change will be worked around and gamed, just like NCLB has been. The brainstorming session is pointless, believe me. But since you won't, continue on. I'll take my nay-saying out of it.
Believe me I can understand being jaded by a fucked up field and if you've thrown your hands up and given up I understand. But if you by your own admission refuse to believe there's no answer than you've sort of forfeited your right to debate the subject any further as far as I am concerned.
I don't think we have the right idea yet and won't for quite some time but recognition of the lack of accountability in the field and teachers unions past abilities to protect those that cheapen the profession is one that is long overdue. It's one of those things politicians have willfully ignored for far too long.