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Pagan rituals BE GONE

bowenbowen Registered User regular
edited November 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
Has anyone else been noticing a lot of schools and places are changing their Halloween festivities to "Harvest Festival" festivities?

This was on the radio today and irked me a bit. It was kind of unsettling how widespread it is this year. It seems a lot of local schools in my area aren't letting kids dress up in "offensive" outfits. Those being things that would celebrate paganism because of fear it might offend someone. Witches, devil outfights, ghosts. Ninja turtles and the cast of Jersey Shore is okay.

Though some are even getting rid of costume altogether. Nothing. What's the point? Is anyone really honestly offended? Kids are going to be kids I very much doubt some kid is going to be upset because Elly-may dressed up like the wicked witch of the west this year. Their parents might be. Why? Christian maybe? Well, Christianity has a long history of pagan rituals in it's background. Christmas, for instance, a conglomeration of Yule, the birth of Jesus, and a few other regions. If anything Christians should be taking a page from their ancestors and celebrate holidays together.

What are your thoughts on this D&D? Have you all been noticing the same thing? Is this political correctness gone too far?

bowen on
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Posts

  • MalyonsusMalyonsus Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I'm pretty okay with it, especially given that you could replace 'Halloween' up there with 'Christmas' and get the evangelical version of the argument.

    School celebrations should err on the side of secular.

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  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Is there really harm done by letting kids dress up as a witch or a ghost for school as long as it's not interfering with class? I can't see it really being too much of an issue. It does seem to be too much PC to be worth it.

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Syncretism ho!

    ... yeah, it's pretty stupid. Holidays like Christmas, Halloween, and Easter have symbolism that while mythological in nature aren't meaningfully tied in any way to any modern religion, so to argue that celebrating them represents establishment of a religion (either in the First Amendment sense, or in the evangelical sense that they teach kids paganism) is to paint a very tenuous link.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • ArchArch HELLO YES THIS IS BUG Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    And amusingly, harvest festivals are MORE "pagan" in origin than halloween....but don't tell the school board that...

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    let's call it Samhain instead

  • ChillyWillyChillyWilly Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Funny. I was actually having this exact same discussion with a friend of mine who is a super conservative Christian. WAY more conservative than me on just about any issue you could come up with.

    She thought that kids dressing up in "evil" outfits was a terrible, sinful thing. To which I replied, "How are the kids being evil, exactly? It's a holiday where kids dress up and get candy, not a cat-sacrificing ritual."

    I have yet to receive a reply on this particular point, but I'll remember to bring her response back to the thread if she gives one. Might be good to get an uber-Christian point of view straight from the source.

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  • Mojo_JojoMojo_Jojo When life gives you lemons... ...eat your delicious lemonsRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    Is there really harm done by letting kids dress up as a witch or a ghost for school as long as it's not interfering with class? I can't see it really being too much of an issue. It does seem to be too much PC to be worth it.

    Kids in America dress up to go to school on Halloween?

    Homogeneous distribution of your varieties of amuse-gueule
  • OctoparrotOctoparrot Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Is there really harm done by letting kids dress up as a witch or a ghost for school as long as it's not interfering with class?

    Fuck no. In fact, even if it interferes with class, it's HALLOWEEN. The most kickass time of the year! Remove New Years and make Halloween a day off from school for the little ones.

    the GOP shouldn't give a rats ass about them since they won't vote for them. If someone won't vote for you they might as well not exist.
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Is there really harm done by letting kids dress up as a witch or a ghost for school as long as it's not interfering with class? I can't see it really being too much of an issue. It does seem to be too much PC to be worth it.

    Kids in America dress up to go to school on Halloween?

    Yeah, it's pretty common for kids to go to class in costume on Halloween day (or on the Friday immediately preceding it, if it falls on a weekend.)

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • HaleskarthHaleskarth Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I'm pretty okay with it, especially given that you could replace 'Halloween' up there with 'Christmas' and get the evangelical version of the argument.

    School celebrations should err on the side of secular.

    When my child dresses up on a day that basically means "free candy" and "be whatever the fuck you please for fun" once a year, I dont think we should have to worry about whether or not that little billies ghost costume is going to offend some nutjob who doesn't want their child exposed to THAT PAGANTRY WITCHCRAFTINGS at school.

    Now if the children all wanted to dress as giant dicks or vaginal flying squirrels with swastikas, we might need to ask questions.

    edit:...I was last on the train..

  • MalyonsusMalyonsus Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I guess my biggest problem is that when you're talking about holidays that not every kid celebrates (I grew up in a relatively evangelical area and the number of people who didn't celebrate Halloween was comparatively high), celebrating or marking it in school creates an unnecessary sense of 'otherness' that we should try to avoid, even if it means giving up some of our precious rituals.

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  • NailbunnyPDNailbunnyPD Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Halloween is about dressing up for a good time and candy. There's no reason to twist it into an attack on Christianity. Dressing up as original or mythical characters as opposed to commercial characters should be encouraged.

    Who is seriously offended by a ghost costume?

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  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I guess my biggest problem is that when you're talking about holidays that not every kid celebrates (I grew up in a relatively evangelical area and the number of people who didn't celebrate Halloween was comparatively high), celebrating or marking it in school creates an unnecessary sense of 'otherness' that we should try to avoid, even if it means giving up some of our precious rituals.

    Yeah, I can see this.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Arch wrote: »
    And amusingly, harvest festivals are MORE "pagan" in origin than halloween....but don't tell the school board that...

    That's what utterly confused the shit out of me. Most American Wicca consider halloween the harvest festival.

    It's kind of weird. Would Christians be okay if their kids didn't get to celebrates Christmas, or is this a one-sided thing, only if it offends the Christians?

  • HaleskarthHaleskarth Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I guess my biggest problem is that when you're talking about holidays that not every kid celebrates (I grew up in a relatively evangelical area and the number of people who didn't celebrate Halloween was comparatively high), celebrating or marking it in school creates an unnecessary sense of 'otherness' that we should try to avoid, even if it means giving up some of our precious rituals.

    There is always, and will always be things that one person does and another doesn't. I feel like if you put the kids all in one place and say "Hey check it out you all celebrate the same things the same way" you're empowering the fact that the kids do have differences by trying to mask it, and you're standing up for what is possibly someones elses ignorance or lack of tolerance towards those differences under the idea that you want to be sure they dont "feel" "otherness".

    I think if I've learned anything in life, or feel that anything in life should of been taught in school it's that differences exist, sometimes you're the odd one out, sometimes you're not, you dont need to change the people that arent like you or put a different cloth over them when you're in the same building so that it doesnt hurt your delicate sensibilities.

  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Halloween is about dressing up for a good time and candy. There's no reason to twist it into an attack on Christianity. Dressing up as original or mythical characters as opposed to commercial characters should be encouraged.

    Who is seriously offended by a ghost costume?

    On the radio today it was specifically Witches. This little girl saw a play and was really excited to dress up as a witch for Halloween. The school put in the policy that they'll let people dress up, but not as an offensive thing like a witch, or ghost, or any other pagan image (I think they used pagan in the letter).

    If anything that sends the wrong message to kids. All she wants to do is have fun and dress up, this has less to do with "I'm going to haunt you and curse you" and more to do with "let's have fun and be kids."

    Seriously if anyone links dressing up as a witch as a precursor to Wicca, they're pretty dumb. I don't even care if a kid dresses up like Jesus for Halloween, that won't offend me.

  • HavelockHavelock Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I'm pretty okay with it, especially given that you could replace 'Halloween' up there with 'Christmas' and get the evangelical version of the argument.

    School celebrations should err on the side of secular.

    I agree with the secular bit, but should Halloween even considered to be 'religious' at this point?

    From what I've observed for most people is that it's just an excuse to dress up in a costume, decorate their house, carve pumpkins, and stuff pillow sheets full of candy or get really drunk (depending on the age).

    If there's a deeper meaning behind it than the above, let me know.

  • HaleskarthHaleskarth Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    Arch wrote: »
    And amusingly, harvest festivals are MORE "pagan" in origin than halloween....but don't tell the school board that...

    That's what utterly confused the shit out of me. Most American Wicca consider halloween the harvest festival.

    It's kind of weird. Would Christians be okay if their kids didn't get to celebrates Christmas, or is this a one-sided thing, only if it offends the Christians?

    I think that if you watch the news, you will find that each group has something they dont want another group to do in public on a specific day.

    And its ruining the country.

  • SaammielSaammiel Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I guess my biggest problem is that when you're talking about holidays that not every kid celebrates (I grew up in a relatively evangelical area and the number of people who didn't celebrate Halloween was comparatively high), celebrating or marking it in school creates an unnecessary sense of 'otherness' that we should try to avoid, even if it means giving up some of our precious rituals.

    The joy most kids get from Halloween is well worth some discomfort from people who for whatever reason don't choose to celebrate. I'd rather have a place where joy and diversity is allowed rather than some sterile place where conformity is enforced in an attempt to mitigate bullying that will occur through other venues in the abscence of halloween. The focus should be on reducing bullying itself, not on trying to tamp down on any possible avenue through which the bullies may choose to pick on children. Those avenues are endless.

  • geckahngeckahn Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Feral wrote: »
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Is there really harm done by letting kids dress up as a witch or a ghost for school as long as it's not interfering with class? I can't see it really being too much of an issue. It does seem to be too much PC to be worth it.

    Kids in America dress up to go to school on Halloween?

    Yeah, it's pretty common for kids to go to class in costume on Halloween day (or on the Friday immediately preceding it, if it falls on a weekend.)

    This applies only to elementary school kids, just so you non americans know.

  • MalyonsusMalyonsus Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Haleskarth wrote: »
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I guess my biggest problem is that when you're talking about holidays that not every kid celebrates (I grew up in a relatively evangelical area and the number of people who didn't celebrate Halloween was comparatively high), celebrating or marking it in school creates an unnecessary sense of 'otherness' that we should try to avoid, even if it means giving up some of our precious rituals.

    There is always, and will always be things that one person does and another doesn't. I feel like if you put the kids all in one place and say "Hey check it out you all celebrate the same things the same way" you're empowering the fact that the kids do have differences by trying to mask it, and you're standing up for what is possibly someones elses ignorance or lack of tolerance towards those differences under the idea that you want to be sure they dont "feel" "otherness".

    I think if I've learned anything in life, or feel that anything in life should of been taught in school it's that differences exist, sometimes you're the odd one out, sometimes you're not, you dont need to change the people that arent like you or put a different cloth over them when you're in the same building so that it doesnt hurt your delicate sensibilities.

    I agree that people sometimes take it way too far, and since people *do* have differences, we should teach kids they exist, but, if everyone is dressed up and celebrating and you're NOT dressed up and celebrating, I mean, I guarantee you that that day is going to be rough for that kid. And to what end?

    Edit: I'd also like to say that I'm pretty sure that the people mentioned above who are for 'banning witches' are ridiculous, and I am not defending them, even if I broadly agree with the outcome.

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  • geckahngeckahn Registered User
    edited October 2010
    Havelock wrote: »
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I'm pretty okay with it, especially given that you could replace 'Halloween' up there with 'Christmas' and get the evangelical version of the argument.

    School celebrations should err on the side of secular.

    I agree with the secular bit, but should Halloween even considered to be 'religious' at this point?

    From what I've observed for most people is that it's just an excuse to dress up in a costume, decorate their house, carve pumpkins, and stuff pillow sheets full of candy or get really drunk (depending on the age).

    If there's a deeper meaning behind it than the above, let me know.

    You forgot dressing like a huge slut.

  • DraculaDracula Registered User
    edited October 2010
    It's not like half the shit involved in every other holiday isn't pagan in origin.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HaleskarthHaleskarth Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    Haleskarth wrote: »
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I guess my biggest problem is that when you're talking about holidays that not every kid celebrates (I grew up in a relatively evangelical area and the number of people who didn't celebrate Halloween was comparatively high), celebrating or marking it in school creates an unnecessary sense of 'otherness' that we should try to avoid, even if it means giving up some of our precious rituals.

    There is always, and will always be things that one person does and another doesn't. I feel like if you put the kids all in one place and say "Hey check it out you all celebrate the same things the same way" you're empowering the fact that the kids do have differences by trying to mask it, and you're standing up for what is possibly someones elses ignorance or lack of tolerance towards those differences under the idea that you want to be sure they dont "feel" "otherness".

    I think if I've learned anything in life, or feel that anything in life should of been taught in school it's that differences exist, sometimes you're the odd one out, sometimes you're not, you dont need to change the people that arent like you or put a different cloth over them when you're in the same building so that it doesnt hurt your delicate sensibilities.

    I agree that people sometimes take it way too far, and since people *do* have differences, we should teach kids they exist, but, if everyone is dressed up and celebrating and you're NOT dressed up and celebrating, I mean, I guarantee you that that day is going to be rough for that kid. And to what end?

    Yes, the day will be rough for that kid, but that's life. Maybe this kid will learn that hey, being the odd one out because your parents are offended by someones witch outfit doesn't really help you in life in anyway, and then the next generation wont be quite as shitty :P

  • HavelockHavelock Registered User
    edited October 2010
    geckahn wrote: »
    Havelock wrote: »
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I'm pretty okay with it, especially given that you could replace 'Halloween' up there with 'Christmas' and get the evangelical version of the argument.

    School celebrations should err on the side of secular.

    I agree with the secular bit, but should Halloween even considered to be 'religious' at this point?

    From what I've observed for most people is that it's just an excuse to dress up in a costume, decorate their house, carve pumpkins, and stuff pillow sheets full of candy or get really drunk (depending on the age).

    If there's a deeper meaning behind it than the above, let me know.

    You forgot dressing like a huge slut.

    Well it's more or less covered under the 'dress up in a costume' bit.

  • ronzoronzo Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    geckahn wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Is there really harm done by letting kids dress up as a witch or a ghost for school as long as it's not interfering with class? I can't see it really being too much of an issue. It does seem to be too much PC to be worth it.

    Kids in America dress up to go to school on Halloween?

    Yeah, it's pretty common for kids to go to class in costume on Halloween day (or on the Friday immediately preceding it, if it falls on a weekend.)

    This applies only to elementary school kids, just so you non americans know.

    It also happens in middle/high school, but it's far more rare, it's basically a day where you can flaunt the dress code and not catch anything for it

  • MalyonsusMalyonsus Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    I'd also like to say that Halloween presents an interesting reversal, if it's the evangelicals' kids who are the odd ones out.

    I suppose I would be more okay with celebrating these holidays if it were more inclusive than it is. As it is, no school marks Ramadan or Passover or Ganesh Chaturthi, it's always the Christian holidays that are celebrated, and the Christian kids who are included.

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  • HaleskarthHaleskarth Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    ronzo wrote: »
    geckahn wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Is there really harm done by letting kids dress up as a witch or a ghost for school as long as it's not interfering with class? I can't see it really being too much of an issue. It does seem to be too much PC to be worth it.

    Kids in America dress up to go to school on Halloween?

    Yeah, it's pretty common for kids to go to class in costume on Halloween day (or on the Friday immediately preceding it, if it falls on a weekend.)

    This applies only to elementary school kids, just so you non americans know.

    It also happens in middle/high school, but it's far more rare, it's basically a day where you can flaunt the dress code and not catch anything for it

    Middle/high schools have dress code?

  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue Coral Springs, FLRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Yep, better take away Christmas too.

    God, Halloween is really starting to suck for kids. Can't even go out at night.

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  • HaleskarthHaleskarth Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I'd also like to say that Halloween presents an interesting reversal, if it's the evangelicals' kids who are the odd ones out.

    I suppose I would be more okay with celebrating these holidays if it were more inclusive than it is. As it is, no school marks Ramadan or Passover or Ganesh Chaturthi, it's always the Christian holidays that are celebrated, and the Christian kids who are included.

    Yes, and I bet that if you went to.. fuck.. whats a decidedly not christian place.. the moon. You would find that they only celebrate Armstrong Day. And so only astronauts are really included.

    And I say you then celebrate your own shit on the moon as well, and not give a fuck if anyone or everyone celebrates with you.

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Haleskarth wrote: »
    Middle/high schools have dress code?

    Yes?

    They don't have dress codes where you live?

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • cj iwakuracj iwakura The Rhythm Rogue Coral Springs, FLRegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Feral wrote: »
    Haleskarth wrote: »
    Middle/high schools have dress code?

    Yes?

    They don't have dress codes where you live?

    You haven't noticed how girls dress there, have you? Only ones with uniform codes have any kind of standards.

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  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Haleskarth wrote: »
    ronzo wrote: »
    geckahn wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Is there really harm done by letting kids dress up as a witch or a ghost for school as long as it's not interfering with class? I can't see it really being too much of an issue. It does seem to be too much PC to be worth it.

    Kids in America dress up to go to school on Halloween?

    Yeah, it's pretty common for kids to go to class in costume on Halloween day (or on the Friday immediately preceding it, if it falls on a weekend.)

    This applies only to elementary school kids, just so you non americans know.

    It also happens in middle/high school, but it's far more rare, it's basically a day where you can flaunt the dress code and not catch anything for it

    Middle/high schools have dress code?

    An awful lot of middle/high schools now have very strict dress codes that are more like uniforms.

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  • HavelockHavelock Registered User
    edited October 2010
    ronzo wrote: »
    geckahn wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Mojo_Jojo wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Is there really harm done by letting kids dress up as a witch or a ghost for school as long as it's not interfering with class? I can't see it really being too much of an issue. It does seem to be too much PC to be worth it.

    Kids in America dress up to go to school on Halloween?

    Yeah, it's pretty common for kids to go to class in costume on Halloween day (or on the Friday immediately preceding it, if it falls on a weekend.)

    This applies only to elementary school kids, just so you non americans know.

    It also happens in middle/high school, but it's far more rare, it's basically a day where you can flaunt the dress code and not catch anything for it

    Yeah, it was super popular at my HS. Everybody was down for a legitimate reason to give the bird to the dress code. The teachers dressed up for it too, which was cool. And they handed out candy, which was cooler.

  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Yeah our school let us dress up on Halloween. Obviously no offensive things like sexy ninja turtle or naked nurse or something. But witches? Fuck that.

    My boss, who's Indian, loves it when people dress up. We need more people like him, and less people like the crazy wife from wife swap.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar QA Tester -> Game Producer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited October 2010
    This is unfortunate mainly because of why it's being done. National Dress Funny Day should still exist in some form, unless we're going to ban Christmas break (calling it "Winter," while a good move, doesn't eliminate who it's primarily there for).

    It's going to be sad when more people are celebrating Halloween as adults than as children. Most of the places I've worked allow some measure of dressing up. My current job has a costume contest.

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  • Sangheili91Sangheili91 Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    cj iwakura wrote: »
    Feral wrote: »
    Haleskarth wrote: »
    Middle/high schools have dress code?

    Yes?

    They don't have dress codes where you live?

    You haven't noticed how girls dress there, have you? Only ones with uniform codes have any kind of standards.
    This isn't necessarily true, at least in my experience. My high school didn't have a uniform, but there were things they frowned on and weren't allowed; skirts past the knees, low cut shirts, holes in your jeans, no pajamas, etc.

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  • HaleskarthHaleskarth Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Feral wrote: »
    Haleskarth wrote: »
    Middle/high schools have dress code?

    Yes?

    They don't have dress codes where you live?

    No Feral, you see I'm from the antarctic and they don't.

    Obviously dress codes exist here, but when I think "dress code" I think something that explicitly states a standard above casual. Which no, I cant say I've encountered any non-private schools in Nova Scotia that really do.

  • InkSplatInkSplat 100%ed Bad Rats. Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Man, where I lived we dressed up through high school and at community college as well. Every job I've ever had, from warehouse to retail, has also always had costume contests and such.

    Also, the whole idea of limiting kids from dressing as pagan symbols is ridiculous. Especially when I bet they aren't going to limit angels or anything like that.

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  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    edited October 2010
    Haleskarth wrote: »
    Malyonsus wrote: »
    I'd also like to say that Halloween presents an interesting reversal, if it's the evangelicals' kids who are the odd ones out.

    I suppose I would be more okay with celebrating these holidays if it were more inclusive than it is. As it is, no school marks Ramadan or Passover or Ganesh Chaturthi, it's always the Christian holidays that are celebrated, and the Christian kids who are included.

    Yes, and I bet that if you went to.. fuck.. whats a decidedly not christian place.. the moon. You would find that they only celebrate Armstrong Day. And so only astronauts are really included.

    And I say you then celebrate your own shit on the moon as well, and not give a fuck if anyone or everyone celebrates with you.

    As a kid, I would've loved to learn about all the other holidays we don't celebrate. It'd have been fun I think. Unless my mom was the mother from wife-swap who foamed at the mouth about Pagan this and Pagan that.

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