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Freedom of [Chat]

MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
edited November 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
marybethjohntinker.jpg

Back when Vietnam was a thing, some awesome students made law by wearing protest armbands to school. When they were forced to remove them, they sued. This lead directly to the Supreme Court telling us:
Tinker wrote:
First Amendment rights, applied in light of the special characteristics of the school environment, are available to teachers and students. It can hardly be argued that either students or teachers shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate. This has been the unmistakable holding of this Court for almost 50 years.

Unfortunately, this ruling has, in many ways, been eroded over the subsequent decades. For instance, in Fraser v. Bethel School District, a young man gave a rather racy speech in support of his friend's bid for student body president. Check it out:
"'I know a man who is firm -- he's firm in his pants, he's firm in his shirt, his character is firm -- but most . . . of all, his belief in you, the students of Bethel, is firm.

"'Jeff Kuhlman is a man who takes his point and pounds it in. If necessary, he'll take an issue and nail it to the wall. He doesn't attack things in spurts -- he drives hard, pushing and pushing until finally -- he succeeds.

"'Jeff is a man who will go to the very end -- even the climax, for each and every one of you.

"'So vote for Jeff for A. S. B. vice-president -- he'll never come between you and the best our high school can be.'"

Unfortunately, of all the justices, only Brennan really had a sense of humor.
Brennan wrote:
The Court, referring to these remarks as "obscene," "vulgar," "lewd," and "offensively lewd," concludes that school officials properly punished respondent for uttering the speech. Having read the full text of respondent's remarks, I find it difficult to believe that it is the same speech the Court describes. To my mind, the most that can be said about respondent's speech -- and all that need be said -- is that in light of the discretion school officials have to teach high school students how to conduct civil and effective public discourse, and to prevent disruption of school educational activities, it was not unconstitutional for school officials to conclude, under the circumstances of this case, that respondent's remarks exceeded permissible limits. Thus, while I concur in the Court's judgment, I write separately to express my understanding of the breadth of the Court's holding....

And only Stevens is awesome;
Stevens wrote:
"Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn."

So chatters, what do you think about free speech in schools? What about, for instance, hateful or harassing speech? Recently kids in Chicago were prevented from wearing "straight pride" shirts with violent passages from Leviticus on them. What's that all about?

FREE SPEECH!

MrMister on
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Posts

  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I was hoping this chat would reference Jeepguy's sexuality.

    Also
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    The pledge isn't about taking pride in a country. It is about obedience.

    Is the pledge actually about anything, really? I always thought it was just a silly custom you guys have, like British people and the Queen, or Australians and institutionalised racism.

    It's some nonsense about obeying the flag that provides a convenient framework into which assholes can shove egregious bits about god
    Eisenhower wasn't an asshole :?

    h1DI1.jpg
    All my fuckin life I lived a normal fuckin life
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu fiddy too Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    was hoping for [Chat] hates flags

    Sarksus wrote: »
    I'm gonna get a PhD in incest.
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Starship troopers the movie was better then the story it was based on. OH YEAH MOTHER FUCKER I'LL GO THERE!

  • NerdgasmicNerdgasmic __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2010
    was hoping for "it was the 17th century nobody had done [chat] before!"

    @nealcm @faynor
    nerdgasmic.gif1420 6068 6113 - XBL Atomoclassic
  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    edited November 2010
    Apple's iOS is like that beautiful dominatrix. Controlling, manipulative, and demeaning. An almost supernatural beauty though, and looks darned good in a corset, making it hard to resist.

    I like this comparison!

    huntresssig.jpg
  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Okay guys I need to settle an argument.

    Is the direct sunlight in the winter actually warmer because the sun is closer to the earth despite the tilt of the earth?

    steam_sig.png
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    So, MrMister, if gay kids had worn shirts calling for the death of straight kids, that would be okay, too?

    It's relevant that the quotes in question are from the bible. Religious speech is specially protected.

    To some extent. You can't just break the law and say that your religion demands it.

    It's pretty hard to break the law by speaking your religious beliefs, though. That's kind of the point.

    You're still going to get in trouble if you go around saying "Fags must all die!"

  • MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Preacher wrote: »
    Starship troopers the movie was better then the story it was based on. OH YEAH MOTHER FUCKER I'LL GO THERE!

    Haven't read the book, but that's pretty much what I've heard.
    Senjutsu wrote:
    was hoping for [Chat] hates flags

    Quit yer bellyaching.

  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Preacher wrote: »
    Starship troopers the movie was better then the story it was based on. OH YEAH MOTHER FUCKER I'LL GO THERE!

    OH SHI-

    naw I haven't even read the books and my memories of the movie have been mauled by watching the "sequel"

    sigtk.jpg
  • Silas BrownSilas Brown Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    This is a great [chat] OP. Thanks, Mr*2!

    CmgpQ.jpg
  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    jesus these fire geckos don't fuck around

    Per3th.jpg
  • HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Okay guys I need to settle an argument.

    Is the direct sunlight in the winter actually warmer because the sun is closer to the earth despite the tilt of the earth?

    I, uh, what?

    sigtk.jpg
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Okay guys I need to settle an argument.

    Is the direct sunlight in the winter actually warmer because the sun is closer to the earth despite the tilt of the earth?

    No. Heat depends on the angle between the sun and that particular spot on the earth. If it were a matter of distance, we'd have the same season everywhere on the planet all year long.

  • ThomamelasThomamelas “Three films a day, three books a week and records of great music would be enough to make me happy to the day I die.” Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    The reasonable requirement doesn't mean that the administrator has to believe violence will happen. Simply that it's more likely to happen. Or that he'll end up with a sufficient enough of a screaming match that class will be disrupted. Is it really that unreasonable to believe that those t-shirts wouldn't be seen as aggressively confrontational given the raised emotional levels? Even Tinker leaves that as an out for school administrators. And we're also debating this as if the students in question are "good" students. For all we know they may not be. If they or one has a history of fighting then it's without question the right call to make.

    The administrator cannot simply believe that violence is more likely than it was before--after all, as in Tinker, any controversial opinion could, theoretically, lead to a fight. It has to be that they believe violence, or comparably significant disruption, has become significantly likely. I doubt that belief is reasonable in this situation, especially given that nothing (which is exactly what I would expect) actually happened on the first day.

    And in the case of Tinker they make it clear that it only applies to passive speech that doesn't impact others. In this case, calling for a groups death during a tolerance event removes Tinker from the whole equation. That's why the vast majority of free-speech cases go against students. Want to not say the pledge of allegiance? Tinker protects you as a student. Want to go against the schools curriculum? Tinker doesn't apply.
    There is here no evidence whatever of petitioners' interference, actual or nascent, with the schools' work or of collision with the rights of other students to be secure and to be let alone. Accordingly, this case does not concern speech or action that intrudes upon the work of the schools or the rights of other students.

    Calling for the death of a group of students pretty clearly infringes upon their right to be free from harassment. Again, from Tinker:
    In the present case, the District Court made no such finding, and our independent examination of the record fails to yield evidence that the school authorities had reason to anticipate that the wearing of the armbands would substantially interfere with the work of the school or impinge upon the rights of other students.

  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited November 2010
    Elendil wrote: »
    jesus these fire geckos don't fuck around

    I know, right

  • wazillawazilla Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    So, MrMister, if gay kids had worn shirts calling for the death of straight kids, that would be okay, too?

    It's relevant that the quotes in question are from the bible. Religious speech is specially protected.

    To some extent. You can't just break the law and say that your religion demands it.

    It's pretty hard to break the law by speaking your religious beliefs, though. That's kind of the point.

    You're still going to get in trouble if you go around saying "Fags must all die!"

    This is pretty much how Fred Phelps makes a living

    Psn:wazukki
  • GooeyGooey Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    USA [CHAT] USA

    then the video of everyone going nuts after that world cup goal

    would have been better

    919UOwT.png
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu fiddy too Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Ik was pretty good

    the god thing was still an asshole move

    Sarksus wrote: »
    I'm gonna get a PhD in incest.
  • NerdgasmicNerdgasmic __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2010
    Elendil wrote: »
    jesus these fire geckos don't fuck around


    do you think you might be up for more smash this weekend

    @nealcm @faynor
    nerdgasmic.gif1420 6068 6113 - XBL Atomoclassic
  • MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    It's pretty hard to break the law by speaking your religious beliefs, though. That's kind of the point.

    You're still going to get in trouble if you go around saying "Fags must all die!"

    Depends how you do it.

    It's no crime if I say "we should amend the constitution to re-criminalize sodomy, with a punishment of death."

  • ShivahnShivahn Eastern coastal temptressRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Okay guys I need to settle an argument.

    Is the direct sunlight in the winter actually warmer because the sun is closer to the earth despite the tilt of the earth?

    No. Heat depends on the angle between the sun and that particular spot on the earth. If it were a matter of distance, we'd have the same season everywhere on the planet all year long.

    Well, it's a matter of both, but the angle is far far more powerful an effector.

  • SenjutsuSenjutsu fiddy too Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    This is a great [chat] OP. Thanks, Mr*2!

    You are bad at math

    Sarksus wrote: »
    I'm gonna get a PhD in incest.
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    Preacher wrote: »
    Starship troopers the movie was better then the story it was based on. OH YEAH MOTHER FUCKER I'LL GO THERE!

    Haven't read the book, but that's pretty much what I've heard.
    Senjutsu wrote:
    was hoping for [Chat] hates flags

    Quit yer bellyaching.

    I think the issue that people who like the book get into is buying into the movie, forgetting its directed by Verhoven who loves satire.

    People who like Starship Troopers for the jingoistic message are scary though.

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    MrMister wrote: »
    MrMister wrote: »
    It's pretty hard to break the law by speaking your religious beliefs, though. That's kind of the point.

    You're still going to get in trouble if you go around saying "Fags must all die!"

    Depends how you do it.

    It's no crime if I say "we should amend the constitution to re-criminalize sodomy, with a punishment of death."

    And schools can punish students for doing things that are not against the law.

  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Okay guys I need to settle an argument.

    Is the direct sunlight in the winter actually warmer because the sun is closer to the earth despite the tilt of the earth?

    No. Heat depends on the angle between the sun and that particular spot on the earth. If it were a matter of distance, we'd have the same season everywhere on the planet all year long.

    I mean to say the solar radiation at one point would be greater. I know the over all irradiation is definitely higher.

    steam_sig.png
  • CindersCinders You’re either ready to reap this freaky-assed harvest or you’re not. Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBJQIiuhhRk

    The soviet national anthem was so awesome they just changed the lyrics to get rid of the communism.

  • NerdgasmicNerdgasmic __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2010
    Uber 100,000 Aufrufe!

    @nealcm @faynor
    nerdgasmic.gif1420 6068 6113 - XBL Atomoclassic
  • matt has a problemmatt has a problem Six pack on a dick Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    Ik was pretty good

    the god thing was still an asshole move
    Interestingly enough, he'd been raised as a Jehova's Witness, who don't recite the pledge since it's viewed as idolatry.

    h1DI1.jpg
    All my fuckin life I lived a normal fuckin life
  • SarksusSarksus Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    This video isn't playing and I remain unsatisfied.

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Shivahn wrote: »
    Okay guys I need to settle an argument.

    Is the direct sunlight in the winter actually warmer because the sun is closer to the earth despite the tilt of the earth?

    No. Heat depends on the angle between the sun and that particular spot on the earth. If it were a matter of distance, we'd have the same season everywhere on the planet all year long.

    Well, it's a matter of both, but the angle is far far more powerful an effector.

    The additional distance that the light has to travel through vacuum when it comes to seasons is irrelevant because the distance from the earth to the sun is so much greater.

  • ElendilElendil Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    Elendil wrote: »
    jesus these fire geckos don't fuck around

    I know, right
    I'm a melee fighter

    fuckin' swarmed by these guys and oh jesus I can't punch fast enough

    cost me like 20 stimpacks to get through this damn cave and there wasn't anything good!

    Per3th.jpg
  • Silas BrownSilas Brown Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    This is a great [chat] OP. Thanks, Mr*2!

    You are bad at math

    I do not understand. There are two Misters. THe total value of his name is Mister*2. Or Mister + Mister.

    CmgpQ.jpg
  • SarksusSarksus Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    This is a great [chat] OP. Thanks, Mr*2!

    You are bad at math

    I do not understand. There are two Misters. THe total value of his name is Mister*2. Or Mister + Mister.

    No, it's Mister*Mister, or Mister^2.

  • MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    And in the case of Tinker they make it clear that it only applies to passive speech that doesn't impact others.

    The sense of passivity relevant here is a more literal one. Namely, that they are wearing an armband rather than, say, shouting from atop a lunchtable. Wearing a shirt falls into the exact same category.
    Calling for the death of a group of students pretty clearly infringes upon their right to be free from harassment. Again, from Tinker:
    In the present case, the District Court made no such finding, and our independent examination of the record fails to yield evidence that the school authorities had reason to anticipate that the wearing of the armbands would substantially interfere with the work of the school or impinge upon the rights of other students.

    "The right to be free from harassment?" I mean, if you are just saying that wearing such a shirt legally qualifies as harassment, then yes, the school can interfere with it. But I doubt that it does. And there is no right to be free from harassment in a vague, or broad sense, wherein you are shielded from ideas you find distasteful or repulsive.

  • Aroused BullAroused Bull Registered User
    edited November 2010
    Okay guys I need to settle an argument.

    Is the direct sunlight in the winter actually warmer because the sun is closer to the earth despite the tilt of the earth?

    No. Heat depends on the angle between the sun and that particular spot on the earth. If it were a matter of distance, we'd have the same season everywhere on the planet all year long.

    I mean to say the solar radiation at one point would be greater. I know the over all irradiation is definitely higher.

    ... during winter in both hemispheres?

  • NerdgasmicNerdgasmic __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2010
    sarks is failing to download hentai

    @nealcm @faynor
    nerdgasmic.gif1420 6068 6113 - XBL Atomoclassic
  • SenjutsuSenjutsu fiddy too Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    This is a great [chat] OP. Thanks, Mr*2!

    You are bad at math

    I do not understand. There are two Misters. THe total value of his name is Mister*2. Or Mister + Mister.

    No he is MrMr not Mr + Mr

    Mr + Mr = 2Mr

    MrMr = Mr^2

    Sarksus wrote: »
    I'm gonna get a PhD in incest.
  • Silas BrownSilas Brown Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Sarksus wrote: »
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    This is a great [chat] OP. Thanks, Mr*2!

    You are bad at math

    I do not understand. There are two Misters. THe total value of his name is Mister*2. Or Mister + Mister.

    No, it's Mister*Mister, or Mister^2.

    How is it Mister*Mister? I only see two Misters.

    CmgpQ.jpg
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Senjutsu wrote: »
    This is a great [chat] OP. Thanks, Mr*2!

    You are bad at math

    I do not understand. There are two Misters. THe total value of his name is Mister*2. Or Mister + Mister.
    But the Misters are adjacent. It's Mister times Mister, or Mister^2.

  • JacobkoshJacobkosh Gamble a stamp. I can show you how to be a real man!Moderator mod
    edited November 2010
    Preacher wrote: »
    I think the issue that people who like the book get into is buying into the movie, forgetting its directed by Verhoven who loves satire.

    People who like Starship Troopers for the jingoistic message are scary though.

    The thing is, while I disagree with the book, it made its points forthrightly. I thought Verhoeven's "satire" was really childish, ignorant, and super-hamfisted by comparison. I couldn't believe it was the same guy who directed Robocop, which is an infinitely more confidently-made and better movie.

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