Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!
Artists With Jobs as Artists
Linespider5
We Good?Registered User regular
We Good?Registered User regular
Something happened today, and, I wavered on here or AC, but ultimately, I'm looking for advice, so, here goes. It's just bugging me, like a splinter I can almost ignore.
I'm an artist. I graduated with a BFA in Studio Art, and I see my art as inseparable from who I am. I also work a call center job, which has nothing to do with my college degree in the slightest. It's fucking good money, though, within walking distance of my place no less, and suits me very fine.
An art gallery/studio center has opened up in town, some people I know, some I don't. Founded by, substitute art teachers, graphic designers, late-twentysomethings much like me. But they're all doing things in the field of art. One of them, a graphic designer, spent some time complaining of having to fly to Texas in the morning to spend a day being fed free food and drinks while getting paid to do it, and then in almost the same breath, asked me what I do.
So I told her.
And she smiled at me.
And said nothing else.
In my experience, that's the sort of response that means something patronizing, or that you've been sorted, or decided on. As though, "Oh, you're one of those." Mind you, these are people I've just met and the moment lasted an instant, and, I've been trying hard to give up noticing things like this, but, something in my instincts is saying this is what happened, and, in the company of artistic peers, I have been labelled as second class.
I've come to a point in my life where I've decided I do art for me. Pretty much period. I don't want to try to run a classroom while cash-strapped school districts are slashing art out of the curriculum, and I don't have the drive or the competitive edge to enter graphic design-I'm much too freeform for that. In short, I refuse to place myself in a position where what I love becomes something I hate, or what I love becomes a burden and requirement to financial well-being.
I make good money doing my non-art job and I do very well at it, and I like that this affords me the freedom to do whatever the fuck I want with my art, on my own terms, day in, day out. I take very good care of myself, for being a single guy.
But there's this unwritten elephant in the room that says that if I'm not being an artist on a w-2 form somewhere, I'm doing something wrong, or being selfish, or lazy. That I should have an obligation to having an art job, if I'm going to be an adult artist.
I think that's bullshit, but it's got me riled tonight, in a passive, persistent way that's not letting up. So: Does this sound weird? Any artists feel this or are in my position too? It's not simply 'You can do whatever you want if you're taking care of yourself,' because if it was, I don't think I'd care this much.
I'm an artist. I graduated with a BFA in Studio Art, and I see my art as inseparable from who I am. I also work a call center job, which has nothing to do with my college degree in the slightest. It's fucking good money, though, within walking distance of my place no less, and suits me very fine.
An art gallery/studio center has opened up in town, some people I know, some I don't. Founded by, substitute art teachers, graphic designers, late-twentysomethings much like me. But they're all doing things in the field of art. One of them, a graphic designer, spent some time complaining of having to fly to Texas in the morning to spend a day being fed free food and drinks while getting paid to do it, and then in almost the same breath, asked me what I do.
So I told her.
And she smiled at me.
And said nothing else.
In my experience, that's the sort of response that means something patronizing, or that you've been sorted, or decided on. As though, "Oh, you're one of those." Mind you, these are people I've just met and the moment lasted an instant, and, I've been trying hard to give up noticing things like this, but, something in my instincts is saying this is what happened, and, in the company of artistic peers, I have been labelled as second class.
I've come to a point in my life where I've decided I do art for me. Pretty much period. I don't want to try to run a classroom while cash-strapped school districts are slashing art out of the curriculum, and I don't have the drive or the competitive edge to enter graphic design-I'm much too freeform for that. In short, I refuse to place myself in a position where what I love becomes something I hate, or what I love becomes a burden and requirement to financial well-being.
I make good money doing my non-art job and I do very well at it, and I like that this affords me the freedom to do whatever the fuck I want with my art, on my own terms, day in, day out. I take very good care of myself, for being a single guy.
But there's this unwritten elephant in the room that says that if I'm not being an artist on a w-2 form somewhere, I'm doing something wrong, or being selfish, or lazy. That I should have an obligation to having an art job, if I'm going to be an adult artist.
I think that's bullshit, but it's got me riled tonight, in a passive, persistent way that's not letting up. So: Does this sound weird? Any artists feel this or are in my position too? It's not simply 'You can do whatever you want if you're taking care of yourself,' because if it was, I don't think I'd care this much.
Linespider5 on
Posts
And if it's the latter, why do you care what they think?
Theres nothing wrong with keeping art as something you do for yourself. That girl was a judgmental prick.
If it's just a hobby, then that's great. If it's something you want to make money off of, then work really hard and succeed at doing that.
There's nothing wrong with not wanting an art based job. I'm in advertising and it's not exactly a transcendent experience.
What it sounds like to me is that you have a bit of a complex regarding how you feel about yourself. Whether you see yourself as a success or not. If you were really happy with where you were, would that graphic designer's response have bothered you?
Right now I work on cruise ships. And to be honest, before I started actually working on the ships, I assumed that ship musicians were washed up artists, or fresh out of college nothings who couldn't survive a land gig if their life depended on it. I wanted a steady gig though, to take a break from freelancing(grueling as fuck), and decided to see about ships. I now know that this gig is a: Actually difficult to play, b: filled with a bunch of professional musicians, though there are the few less-than-stellar people, and c: fun as shit. I still among other artists feel a bit of a tinge of thinking "Oh shit they're going to think less of me", but fuck it. I love the people I work with and I love my job.
I spend 99% of my time playing old pop music. We're talking the most crazy modern party song being Livin' La Vida Loca. My favorite song we play is Son of a Preacher Man. I am, by many of my friends and old colleagues definitions, a sell-out, who is totally ignoring the art as an intellectual pursuit in favor of making money working in my field.
I have many friends who work in call centers or other non-art places to work while pursuing music or writing or art in their free time. Many of them see themselves as more of an artist than I am because while I'm working in my field, I'm working commercial sellout music instead of intellectual academic music.
The thing you have to figure out is how you want to work as an artist. If you want to just do art as a pursuit you follow and get to do what you want with it? Awesome. Fucking sweet, do that crazy stuff. You want a job as an artist only, making money just with art? Go ahead and do that. You want somewhere in between? Great.
There's no obligation to work in your degree.... a million billion people don't. If someone talks down to you, then know that you're doing what you want and are happy. Personally, I've found the more "sellout" I get, the less judgmental people get to me. But what you want is up to you. I have a dream job, and other people who understand that are awesome. Do what makes you happy. Some people are just dicks, don't let it get under your skin.
Khavall's Beginner's Guide to Music Everything(Theory Blog)
I don't know many people who work in call centers who love it (though I actually do know one or two), but they do it because it is a job and jobs are good things to have. It's great to have things you are and things you believe in, but it's also pretty great to be able to support yourself and your hobbies and whatever else comes into your life. When you're done doing that for the day you can go home and do whatever you want.
You can always stay on the lookout for a job doing what you love. In the mean time, be proud of yourself and the fact that you are making ends meet, and try to keep things in perspective. You don't sell drugs to children, you work in a call center. Don't worry about what other people think of it.
That's it right there, really. Above all, I prize stability and security. At the end of the day, I want to know I'm getting paid and making enough to put something away for when I'm reminded of my biology or other concerns. I see lots blogs of professional comic artists and concept designers that can't pay their internet connection bills or get their teeth fixed. I don't want to be there.
But I do hold my art in good regard, too. I know I'm doing more with it than what should be considered for a hobby.
I think my issue is that while my life is financially solid, my art life is somewhat incomplete, in terms of what it could be, in terms of what it could become, and I might see my other achievements as obstacles to getting there.
EDIT: Damn, Khavali, that's a great story, and helped bring me some perspective.
Thanks everyone, I think I'm good now, work-in-progress or whatever I am. Much appreciated.
Is there a stable, commercial, visual arts job? Why aren't you doing that? I'm not trying to say "GOD WHY DON'T YOU DO ART", I'm really interested. Why aren't you focusing on working only in art?
Khavall's Beginner's Guide to Music Everything(Theory Blog)
Hard to explain. Conditional.
I guess I really don't know all that much about the types of positions out there, and it has seemed to be a pretty anomalous, competitive field, generally with nothing stable about the positions offered. And I'd hate to give away what I've got to risk all in a job that won't last, or will burn me out, or will make me hate art. I guess I want a lot of guarantees no one can make. And there's always the nagging feeling that maybe my particular talents aren't suited to professional/commercial art and are too, well, me for anyone else's purposes.
Anyone have suggestions on the best ways just to learn about getting into the art field?
There is a considerable portion of the commercial art/design brain trust that are nothing but pretentious career worshipping douche bags.
It sounds like you have figured out quite quickly what many young frustrated designers figure out when they first get stuck in the corporate wheel which is art is only fun when you can do what you want.
Except you've done it before you got stuck in a horrible underpaying 60 hour per week slave job and have had all your aspirations slowly sucked out.
Do your art, have a presence on the Internet, get noticed, and that will lead to things. You're lucky to have a non-demanding job that sustains you. Take advantage.
I know plenty of graphic designers who complain that they don't have time to make art and plenty of artists who wait tables for steady income.
A job is a job, if you're satisfied with it, then that's what matters.
Well there's good and bad news!
There is no real art job that is 100% stable. Doesn't matter if you're freelancing or working at a studio, most projects are by contract, not hourly income, so it seems you are in good company.
Say you manage to get into the more commercial side of art. The pay will only last till the product is finished, then you're back on the street looking for a new job. It's a constant on-and-off cycle, even for the best artist out there.
If you're an illustrator, almost your entire income will be freelance-based. Many illustrators have to have a unique style that will be there selling gimmick. There are quite a few successful artist out there in this field who's skill level is somewhat questionable.
An animator, on the other hand, has to be more diligent with their artwork, as it's all about realizing someone else's product. They're not really allowed to have their own style, they have to have everyone else's. That takes a lot of time and patience to get down, and that's why the average working animator is more versatle than an illustrator. You probably won't be making the same big bucks as the more successful illustrators would, but it would definitely be a more stable profession because of the flexibility of your technique.
Concept Artists are a little of column A and B, but those jobs are usually well-sought out for, difficult to obtain, and is a position that you need to work your way up towards. Also you need to not only be fantastic at painting, but be able to come up with winning concepts day in and day out. It's a tough profession, but has the potential to be the most rewarding.
Finally there's studio work, like something you would see in a showcase gallery. I actually have no real idea how to get into that one other than trial-and-error, word of mouth and people connections. I will say that if your name and artwork get recognized, you have the potential to be raking in some serious cash. It's a good idea to pick up an agent to help you out with this plan, but you're gonna hit a lot of duds and loose ends before producing some return. You can't argue with the results however; my background design teacher makes most of his income from this, and it affords him the luxury of both free time and breathing room financially, to the point where he's not too dependent on the more commercial business of art.
I hope that helps out!
Good jobs exist.
Mostly because advertising can be vaguely defined.
Advertising can, in some cases, be about as close to the graphic design/identity end of spectrum and still be on the tier we are talking about... if I read correctly.
I work at an ad agency and know several people in advertising and you are definitely right, NotYou, but I wouldn't call what they do "art".
there is a LOT of cut throat competition in both fields which leads to cattiness and generally childish behaviour.
I have had people on this very forum absolutely tear me down after I got some great successes saying things along the lines of "when people realize that your style is just a gimmick, you're going to stop getting work" (not even along the lines, that's the direct quote)
haters gonna hate, it usually comes down to jealousy and feelings of inadequacy.
if you're happy, they can go fuck themselves.
My Band leader from my last contract said that after he had come back and said that he really learned a lot after his first cruise ship gig one of his colleagues who was not even working in music said "Well, I've heard of musicians doing that for the money, but I've never heard anyone thinking it was good for their playing".
Since sightreading 4-5 hours a day obviously just can't help you.
But yeah, no matter what certain(stupid) other artists will look down on you for some reason. So don't sweat it.
Khavall's Beginner's Guide to Music Everything(Theory Blog)
I started doing this a couple of years ago with my own field instead of just saying "I'm a graduate student" (I am a graduate student, but I had professional experience in the field before I entered the graduate program). I found it did wonders for both my own self-confidence and the way strangers seem to perceive me.
This.
This shit shows up in the engineering industry as well.
You seem pretty head strong about not wanting to compromise your art if that's what you want to do that's cool. But as you know you gotta eat, and if you don't paint what people want to paint you are going to get your money some other way. Which is your job.
At the end of the day if you can look yourself in the mirror and say, I've had a good day then don't worry about it.
If you want to be a huge dick about it Next time some tells you that shit you say, "Oh really you paint things that compromise your artistic integrity for money? Here is fifty bucks, paint me this."
Satans..... hints..... I'm a mo bro!
Like Jasconius said, that's more on the graphic design end of things, and is very loosely based to what he is currently doing. I've met many successful and talented graphic designers who don't know how to draw, because the job doesn't require it too much.
Check out my art! Buy some prints!
Yeah it sure is
Easy too
Living client to client, not really sure if next month you'll have enough work to pay the bills, or if you do, if you'll even see the check within the next year
Working 7 days a week most days late into the night
Being held soley accountable to your clients, having to play the role of your own accountant, hr person and on top of that maintaining skill levels on par with the competition.
No benefits, no pension, and on paper many times freelance doesn't even count as work experience.
Yeah it sure is a fucking walk in the park.
It varies. Certainly graphic design is a large part, but it's not like I don't do illustrations as well. I occasionally do 3d animation. I've designed flash games for promotions, animated the characters and painted the backgrounds. Other ad studios might be heavily into motion graphics, or commercials that require CG characters. It's a big field.
And advertising is hardly the only stable work in the field of "art." It just depends on the company. There are plenty of video game studios where people have worked for over a decade, just as there are those that lay off huge amounts of people every year. Same goes for film.
I never finished college and every time I bump into one of my old high school friends or teachers, I'm forced to deal with a similar exchange. "Oh you never graduated? Pshuh!" is the vibe I get, despite what the person I'm talking to does or went to school for, like I'm some dirty bum living on the street because I don't have a "real" education.
Psh. I work in a comic shop and get to make flyers and signs for a small two-store business. Not many college graduates can say they love their job as much as I do, so who gives a poop what anyone else says? Your life shouldn't be lived to impress everyone else. Live the life that makes you happy (:
Not a single week goes by that I don't hear "You're a bright lad, Ben. When are you going to move on to proper computers?" or "Oh, Macs? You're waiting for a real IT job or something?"
And you know what?
Fuck them. Fuck their condescending bullshit, fuck their snooty elitism, and fuck their complete short-sightedness.
You're doing what you love, and making enough money to survive. Nobody that matters ever said the two things need to be directly connected.
Selling my 16GB Wifi iPad 1. UK people only, £150. PM me.
"A garbage man came into the restaurant today and was singing along with his music player while he was waiting to order. He was obviously exhausted from a long day, but he was happy and carefree enough to sing along with his music. One of the customers, a button down type, was obviously not pleased to see a garbage man frequenting the same restaurant he was in. So both customers came and went, and I thought to myself: why heap judgment on a man who still has enough spirit to sing in public? By silently denouncing the status of the garbage man, you have lowered yourself in the eyes of those that observed you doing it."
It has served my friend and I well when judging people to ask ourselves the question:
"Am I lowlier than the garbage man?"
What did you say? That's everything. Doesn't matter what industry you're in, all that matters is what you're passionate about and what you want to talk about. Did you tell her that you do call centre work or did you talk about your art?
You're in an art gallery, and you're asked what you do...and you're an actual artist (even if not a selling one) that sets you above and beyond the rest of the people who are going to be just like you but without the talent and just the appreciation.
The look you got was probably just the look you gave reflected back, what the hell do you say to someone who you've just met and feel's trapped by their work and unable to achieve their dream? Nothing, you smile and move on. However if you wanted to talk about why you want to do art, then that's inviting conversation and passion is infective.
Admittedly I'm in science, but not really the bit I'd like to be in - however the stuff I think is cool about what I do absolutely wows the pants of most of the other scientists I meet. Think of yourself as being self sufficient to the extent that you can do what you want, you're not beholden to someone else due to some contract you are free to explore your passion.
Don't answer the 'what do you do?' question like that - tell them what art you do, and why you do it. No one actually cares how you make a living, and if they do then you can judge them...they've let their definition of themselves define them to the point where they are working for that rather than the reason they wanted to do it in the first place.
As an artist, you'll hopefully fall into one of two categories: You'll have a job in the art you want to be doing, or you'll have a job that allows you to do your art in your free time. If you fit into either category, I'd say you're in good shape.
Some people just want to know where they fit in relation to the most successful person in the room. It doesn't have anything to do with the art field in particular.
"Oh, I have to be up early tomorrow morning, I have a conference call with Frankfurt"
"Vegas is nice if you're get a suite at the Wynn and are going ironically, but Macau is much better"
"Im not really enjoying the open bar, box wine doesn't agree with me"
I could be wrong, but the individual you were talking to sounds like a "hater". Fuck 'em.
#FreeScheck
#FreeSKFM
There's ups and downs - on the one hand having to do visual/creative work all day DOES make you improve/view yourself more critically. Because if you don't produce work to standard, the clients will never come back. The downside is that most of my work is for clients that aren't interested in creativity or art itself - just having a good-looking finished product, delivered quickly and without error. A lot of it can be tedious, but not being able to pick & choose clients/projects is the flip side of the stability that an in-house position brings. The projects with chances for actual creativity are few and far between.
All I'm saying, is don't focus on/romanticize the concept of working full time in art for your rent money/whatever. It can be pretty cool, but other times it puts me off doing work of my own for months, because of how draining it is. I frequently wonder myself if I'd have been better taking a less draining, unrelated job, and just pushed myself for freelance work on my own time, and other in-house graphic designers I've spoken to have said the same.
Here are my thoughts. After about a month, I realized where I was working that A) my boss didn't care about the design, only the speed at which I could produce it, and B) The work he was proud of and displayed on his wall was completely boring. It's merit to him was in how much cash and how widely circulated the ads were.
I quit. I've interviewed for some positions that sounded kind of fun, but didn't really land anything in the design field.
And right now, I'm pretty happy about that. I'm working in shipping for a major (household name major) company and it's great. A little bit of wisdom my lady told me when I was feeling iffy on myself because of my career choices:
"Are you your job?"
"There is not a man of us who does not at times need a helping hand to be stretched out to him, and then shame upon him who will not stretch out the helping hand to his brother."
If i kept a diary, this post could've walked right out of it. These forums are great to see that a lot of us, good or sucky, are going through similar stuff. I can't really give advice because i'm still busy figuring it all out myself, but i just like to say that stuff like this is why i keep logging on here...
I seem to have struck a deeper chord that has more to do with the jobs we do than anything else...