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Making fun of the world [Lindsay Lohan]

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Posts

  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Langly wrote: »
    Swill wrote: »
    okay

    so i don't fully understand why this would be perceived as a bad thing

    could someone explain to me what is so wrong?

    because diplomacy is based on trust. The entire point of dealing with another country is that you trust them to

    a) keep their word on deals they make with you

    b) act professionally and keep their scuttlebutt confidential

    If a country knows that you can't keep your shit to yourself, why should they deal with you? Certain things need to be secret, because it's not politically smart to air your dirty laundry all the time. It's not really a good idea to announce the fact that you want the U.S. to get militarily involved with your neighbor.

    And the most important thing is this: that is ok. There is no need for that to be released until the government thinks that it should be. People talk about transparency as if keeping things secret is the highest sin an entity can commit. It's not. Some things should stay in the dark, because we live in a real world where real things happen, dealing with real countries who don't have your citizens' best interest at the forefront of their thought.

    Despite our disagreements in the last thread, i completely agree with what you just said here.

    Congratulations wikileaks, you've exposed no major conspiracy but have managed to make the middle east region more politically unstable.

    Spoiler:
  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    It's hilarious that so many of you think U.S. diplomats should be held to a standard of complete honesty and forthrightness. Yeah, as if even our own allies are completely honest and candid with us. They'd be just as pissed off if someone leaked a bunch of confidential diplomatic documents. It's absurd to expect that diplomats are completely honest with each other and that this is somehow airing U.S. dirty laundry that needed to be exposed.

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  • ShabootyShabooty Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    the right decision is all perspective

  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    It should be emphasized that none of this information, so far, has alluded to anything criminal or any kind of wrongdoing. You can make a serious argument that the military records released earlier this year should have been released, because they document crimes that had gone under the radar.

    These cables show none of that. They are simply messages between countries and the political process at work. It's kind of neat to see it, and it actually might have some sort of positive impact in regards to China or Iran, but on the whole it has set back diplomatic relations with the US in a big, big way. There was no need. A lust for information because of some vague "Well, we should just all know, man, information wants to be free, you know?" is naive. Diplomacy involves secrets because that is how the world works, politically.

  • Zen VulgarityZen Vulgarity Ask me about Super Propane and Super Propane accessoriesRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Mysst wrote: »
    Swill wrote: »
    well

    the way i see it

    i don't exactly trust the higher ups to make the right calls on what information should be known

    then how did they get there in the first place?

    Top.

    Men.

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  • Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Most of that stuff would have been released eventually. The reason they just don't throw it out there immediately is because it could effect policy and relations.

    No reason to change the way that stuff is handled unless you want your government and its representatives to be made up solely of dimwits.

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  • HobnailHobnail Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I'm glad wikileaks exists.

  • SwillSwill Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    releasing all the information?

    no way

    but if there is the possibility that the information will be leaked, a couple different things could happen

    1- step up security through either
    a- prosecuting those who leak the information
    b-telling even less people

    or

    2- rather than worry about the information getting out, make it so what does get out doesn't embarrass them. that would either mean falsification, or actually sticking to their word

    plus there is a grand different between information such as codes

    and information that helps people make better informed decisions

    take the iraq war for example. if information didn't get out about it, it wouldn't be nearly as unpopular

    but hey look it is unpopular because information is being spread about it and people are being more well informed

  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Well, obviously states must keep some secrets, at least.

    I think Langly has the right of it though. You have a lot of countries bad mouthing other countries, and in many cases, this would look better for the US if the world knew the opinion of those governments. But those countries are usually looking for regional stability, so on one hand you have a country that's threatening region stability, but on the other hand, you don't want to make it worse.

    I hope this information would have made it out eventually. Some of it is just interesting, like the guy who escaped out of Iran into Turkey on horseback. Other stuff is more touchy, but stuff I think we will want to be able to look back on to be able to determine whether the right thing was done, or the wrong thing.

    if we're too far behind / and really out of time / is there another world they plan to find?
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  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Swill wrote: »
    it is a faulty premise to assume that since someone is in a position of power means they make the right decisions

    At some point, you have to let them, and deal with it later. What would you do? If they can't say, then who? You have to put every message through a committee to see if it should be public or not? Who makes up the committee? Who selects the people who selects the committee?

    What information that was currently released, needed to be? What information is currently so morally damming that the citizens had an overbearing right to know it?

  • CrossBusterCrossBuster Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Swill wrote: »
    nuclear codes are one thing

    but the rest of the stuff

    seems to me like it is good that this information is out

    i think they should be a different standard set for what is better left secret and what people should know

    In any situation where candid discourse is necessary, confidentiality is important. That's why the law is so protective of communications between doctors and patients, attorneys and clients, etc.

    I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that, in diplomacy, candor is kind of a big deal.

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  • LTMLTM Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Langly wrote: »
    Diplomacy involves secrets because that is how the world works, politically

    So we keep it secret that our diplomats are also, in some cases, spying on foreign countries.

    Ostensibly, those foreign countries do the same thing, because "that is how the world works".

    Can we then assume that there's nothing in these documents they didn't already know?

    What problem is there in publishing something that everyone already knows?

  • Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    What Assange is talking about now with releasing stuff on banks could have an even bigger impact than this stuff.

    A lot of shit could go down with it and not all of it good.

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  • Zen VulgarityZen Vulgarity Ask me about Super Propane and Super Propane accessoriesRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Cross knows the law better than us (this is true in a way based on reputation)

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  • SoaLSoaL fantastic Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    i hope south korea comes out ok because my brother is living there and that would be pretty sucky if shit got "western"

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  • Viscount IslandsViscount Islands [INSERT SoKo HERE] Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    It's bout to get Western up in this bitch

    I want to do with you
    What spring does with the cherry trees.
  • DadouwDadouw Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    In a real democracy the government wouldnt hide information to the population, because the population is the government.

    And to think that the United States try to spread their model all around the world, boo

  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    LTM wrote: »
    Langly wrote: »
    Diplomacy involves secrets because that is how the world works, politically

    So we keep it secret that our diplomats are also, in some cases, spying on foreign countries.

    Ostensibly, those foreign countries do the same thing, because "that is how the world works".

    Can we then assume that there's nothing in these documents they didn't already know?

    What problem is there in publishing something that everyone already knows?

    because, once it is public, you have to react to it. You can't say, "oh yeah we knew that because hey we spy on you too, also you probably told us in those meetings we had about X."

    Now your international policy is forced to involve this shit, because it is out in public now and if you don't act a certain way, there will be further consequences. Politics is a good percentage of theatre, and once something enters the arena, you have to react to it.

  • Zen VulgarityZen Vulgarity Ask me about Super Propane and Super Propane accessoriesRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Dadouw wrote: »
    In a real democracy the government wouldnt hide information to the population, because the population is the government.

    And to think that the United States try to spread their model all around the world, boo

    hahahaha this cannot be a real statement

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  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Dadouw wrote: »
    In a real democracy the government wouldnt hide information to the population, because the population is the government.

    And to think that the United States try to spread their model all around the world, boo

    The United States is not a democracy, no democracy currently exists on the planet, and we don't try to create them.

  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    Swill wrote: »
    releasing all the information?

    no way

    but if there is the possibility that the information will be leaked, a couple different things could happen

    1- step up security through either
    a- prosecuting those who leak the information
    b-telling even less people

    or

    2- rather than worry about the information getting out, make it so what does get out doesn't embarrass them. that would either mean falsification, or actually sticking to their word

    plus there is a grand different between information such as codes

    and information that helps people make better informed decisions

    take the iraq war for example. if information didn't get out about it, it wouldn't be nearly as unpopular

    but hey look it is unpopular because information is being spread about it and people are being more well informed

    Point 2 is incredibly naive. You're suggesting the U.S. should alleviate the problem by being more honest and forthright, yet I assure you other nations would not do likewise which would just put us at a significant disadvantage. Diplomacy isn't suddenly going to become more honest and friendly across the world just because the U.S. decides to "clean up" their act so to speak.

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  • Zen VulgarityZen Vulgarity Ask me about Super Propane and Super Propane accessoriesRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    If you mean by direct democracy maybe

    But representative democracy nope

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  • DadouwDadouw Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    politicalopinion.jpg

  • Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    It's bout to get Western up in this bitch

    17aprilwf2D.gif

    bO0v7.png
  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    Dadouw wrote: »
    In a real democracy the government wouldnt hide information to the population, because the population is the government.

    And to think that the United States try to spread their model all around the world, boo

    hahahaha this cannot be a real statement

    You there.

    What are you doing.

    You have exams to study for.

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  • DadouwDadouw Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I'm just saying, i dont think the United State's version of democracy should be a model

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    Democracy is just a codeword for democratic elections.

    Steam name: munkus_beaver
    Blizzard thing: munkus#1952
    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): 0619-4510-9772
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    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • Zen VulgarityZen Vulgarity Ask me about Super Propane and Super Propane accessoriesRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I'm currently listening to my professor talk about things that aren't on the exam

    And hush I'm not crwth

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  • CrossBusterCrossBuster Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Cross knows the law better than us (this is true in a way based on reputation)

    I don't really know the law on releasing diplomatic cables.

    But I was just giving an example. We don't have the attorney-client and doctor-patient privileges Just Because.

    We have them because if people thought that whatever they said to their doctors or attorneys could be easily disclosed to third parties, they're not going to be open and honest with them, and in such relationships, honest and candid communication is important for them to work.

    Admittedly not being an expert, I was just saying that diplomacy seems to be another situation where candor, and therefore confidentiality, is important, so releasing these cables may not have been the best idea.

    penguins.png
  • Viscount IslandsViscount Islands [INSERT SoKo HERE] Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    I actually think a lot of the information is quite useful for the public to know.

    I want to do with you
    What spring does with the cherry trees.
  • DruhimDruhim Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    Dadouw wrote: »
    In a real democracy the government wouldnt hide information to the population, because the population is the government.

    And to think that the United States try to spread their model all around the world, boo

    This coming from the dude who went to Cuba and then bragged about the cheeseburger you had at your hotel. Cognitive dissonance what?

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  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Dadouw wrote: »
    politicalopinion.jpg

    the difference between a full democracy and a republic isn't an opinion, it's a definition.

    edit: and a complete democracy is a horrible way to govern, by the way. That is a political opinion.

  • Macro9Macro9 Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Dadouw wrote: »
    In a real democracy the government wouldnt hide information to the population, because the population is the government.

    And to think that the United States try to spread their model all around the world, boo

    Lincoln%20arms%20crossed.jpg

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  • FiarynFiaryn Omnicidal Madman Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Dadouw wrote: »
    In a real democracy the government wouldnt hide information to the population, because the population is the government.

    And to think that the United States try to spread their model all around the world, boo

    Joke detected. Engaging laugh thrusters.

    Pshlooooooool

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  • Zen VulgarityZen Vulgarity Ask me about Super Propane and Super Propane accessoriesRegistered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Cross knows the law better than us (this is true in a way based on reputation)

    I don't really know the law on releasing diplomatic cables.

    But I was just giving an example. We don't have the attorney-client and doctor-patient privileges Just Because.

    We have them because if people thought that whatever they said to their doctors or attorneys could be easily disclosed to third parties, they're not going to be open and honest with them, and in such relationships, honest and candid communication is important for them to work.

    Admittedly not being an expert, I was just saying that diplomacy seems to be another situation where candor, and therefore confidentiality, is important, so releasing these cables may not have been the best idea.

    I meant in terms of knowing the law in general and being knowledgeable about how the law interacts with the world due to experience

    It was a compliment

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  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited November 2010
    I'm currently listening to my professor talk about things that aren't on the exam

    And hush I'm not crwth

    Oh so you're planning on passing.

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    Nintendo ID (3DS thinger): 0619-4510-9772
    Please give to the Crohn's and Colitis Foundation of America: http://www.ccfa.org/
    Humor can be dissected, as a frog can, but it dies in the process.
  • EndEnd Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    Is passing something crwth avoids doing or something?

    if we're too far behind / and really out of time / is there another world they plan to find?
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  • LanglyLangly Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    End wrote: »
    Is passing something crwth avoids doing or something?

    well on this one exam in particular.

  • SoaLSoaL fantastic Registered User regular
    edited November 2010
    i mean if something happened to south korea imagine how it would affect the starcraft 2 pro scene

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This discussion has been closed.