him not taking britta's money makes him a dick? whaaaaa
No, him not taking her money didn't make him a dick. His reaction while not taking her money made him kind of a dick.
Yeah, telling a person you barely know that you are absolutely terrible at managing your shit is kind of a dick move.
Exactly. And IIRC the look on his face at the amount offered was pretty priceless. I mean, I could be reading more into it than was there, but I got a strong, "did you really just offer me two hundred bucks do you know who the fuck I am?" vibe.
I mean, LaVar is no Denzel, but the man doesn't have to scrounge for a plane ticket either.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
but she was making a nice gesture because she needed him to stay for her friend...
I took it as more of a "Whoa, you only have $271 in your bank account? I REALLY don't need $271 so badly that you need to empty your checkbook. Keep it."
I took it as more of a "Whoa, you only have $271 in your bank account? I REALLY don't need $271 so badly that you need to empty your checkbook. Keep it."
I think it was more that when people make offers like that to him, they're millionaires or something like Pierce who can afford it, so it's not a big deal to take their money. His look of shock was that it was someone broke (or maybe not she gets money from random places) like Britta who wanted to pay him just to keep him around.
It wasn't douchey
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
Pierce has crossed the line so many times and in so many ways that I find it impossible to muster any positive feelings for his character. Even within the bounds of suspended disbelief I still can't see why they tolerate him. You can only pull the "I'm secretly vulnerable" as an excuse for doing truly awful things so many times.
him not taking britta's money makes him a dick? whaaaaa
No, him not taking her money didn't make him a dick. His reaction while not taking her money made him kind of a dick.
Yeah, telling a person you barely know that you are absolutely terrible at managing your shit is kind of a dick move.
This is LeVar Burton, fuckdammit. LEVAR BURTON. THIS IS A GUY THAT CONSTANTLY HAD TO BUDGET THE ENTERPRISE'S DILITHIUM CRYSTAL ECONOMY. AND HE WAS BLIND. HE KNOWS A THING OR TWO ABOUT HOW TO MANAGE ONE'S COFFERS.
Pierce has crossed the line so many times and in so many ways that I find it impossible to muster any positive feelings for his character. Even within the bounds of suspended disbelief I still can't see why they tolerate him. You can only pull the "I'm secretly vulnerable" as an excuse for doing truly awful things so many times.
This is why I was miffed that this episode provided no grand catharsis for him. The episode was great, but it wasn't what was needed. They kicked Pierce out of the group for less in season 1. I can't think of a reason any of them would interact with him besides the fact that Troy lives with him.
Instead of turning Pierce around, they made him a bigger dick. And yeah that was totally in character and hey, subverting our expectations and playing "realistic" human characters in a t.v. show setting is what Community does but y'know what would be just as subversive and realistic? Tossing a main character for being an irredeemable dick.
I think tolerating Pierce fuels Jeff, Britta, and Shirley's narcissism. Shirley gets to take the moral high ground and 'forgive' him, Jeff gets to think Pierce depends on him, and Britta gets to act selfless and principled by befriending (or helping) this pariah.
Abed is Abed, and Troy and Annie don't seem the type to hate/hold grudges.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
It's just not plausible to me that, after
exposing Shirley's infidelity
and
faking a reunion with Jeff's missing dad
anyone, no matter how narcissistic, could still put up with him. As I said, it feels like he's crossed a line into the utterly inexcusable more than once. Those things aren't ha-ha wrong, they're you're-dead-to-me wrong. I understand having a wacky grouch who doesn't really have redeeming features but provides comic relief, and how that fits into the sitcom universe, but he has gone beyond wacky antics and into really awful territory.
I think tolerating Pierce fuels Jeff, Britta, and Shirley's narcissism. Shirley gets to take the moral high ground and 'forgive' him, Jeff gets to think Pierce depends on him, and Britta gets to act selfless and principled by befriending (or helping) this pariah.
Abed is Abed, and Troy and Annie don't seem the type to hate/hold grudges.
Also, Troy lives with Pierce, so you couldn't kick Pierce without putting Troy in an awkward position.
Pierce has crossed the line so many times and in so many ways that I find it impossible to muster any positive feelings for his character. Even within the bounds of suspended disbelief I still can't see why they tolerate him. You can only pull the "I'm secretly vulnerable" as an excuse for doing truly awful things so many times.
This is why I was miffed that this episode provided no grand catharsis for him. The episode was great, but it wasn't what was needed. They kicked Pierce out of the group for less in season 1. I can't think of a reason any of them would interact with him besides the fact that Troy lives with him.
Instead of turning Pierce around, they made him a bigger dick. And yeah that was totally in character and hey, subverting our expectations and playing "realistic" human characters in a t.v. show setting is what Community does but y'know what would be just as subversive and realistic? Tossing a main character for being an irredeemable dick.
That was one of my big problems with the D&D episode. Pierce using shapechange to make Neils character as fat as Neil was in real life was an impressive level of douchebaggery (I actually paused the show stunned at Pierce's skill in destroying people), but it wasn't funny.
Of the last 4 episodes 3 of them have revolved around Pierce being a jerk. Far past time to move on to a new subject.
Terrible things Pierce has done that would get any real person booted from a friend group (off the top of my head):
- Pantsing Shirley in front of the group (which they actually kicked him out for!)
- Sexually harassing Shirley often
- Being unabashedly racist and sexist
- Tormenting a suicidal guy by setting out to crush him in the game he uses to escape from bullying
- Exposing Shirley slept with Chang to the whole group and her ex-husband
- Exploiting the groups kindness by turning a vulnerable moment into an opportunity to screw with them
--> as a side note, if someone tried to reunite me with my absentee dad like that, I would beat said person with a pipe. This last episode was well done and it was funny, but that Jeff/Pierce exchange was weird to watch. That is a line you do not cross. Though I suppose it did allow Jeff to come to terms with his father issues, and that made Pierce's scheme notably more forgivable.
It seems that Pierce has changed from grouchy politically incorrect comedy relief to actively malevolent bad guy
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
edited February 2011
I've read this thread and the Sepinwall piece but I don't really think there is a "Pierce problem" so much as a Pierce story that we are in the middle of.
I've read this thread and the Sepinwall piece but I don't really think there is a "Pierce problem" so much as a Pierce story that we are in the middle of.
I think we all kind of figured we'd see it wrap up in this last episode. But there wasn't any resolution or catharsis to it.
I've read this thread and the Sepinwall piece but I don't really think there is a "Pierce problem" so much as a Pierce story that we are in the middle of.
I agree.
Arcs I would like to see more of:
Annie making ends meet (explore her backstory more)
Troy's life at Pierce's home (maybe Pierce is gone and they all have a night there looking around)
More Shirly and Shirly's husband
I've read this thread and the Sepinwall piece but I don't really think there is a "Pierce problem" so much as a Pierce story that we are in the middle of.
The problem is that according to Sepinwall the Russo brothers claimed that this was Pierce's redemption episode and if that is true the writers and producers have seriously underestimated how badly Pierce is coming off to viewers.
So after a really crappy semester Pierce kept escalating being a dick until Jeff kicks the shit out of him for it.
Pretty good conclusion right there. Last year's Christmas episode already outlined physical aggression as an american male cathartic way of blowing off steam and resetting things socially.
I would love to see Neil join the group though, maybe push back Chang and Pierce slightly. Neil is a character with a ton of potential.
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spookymuffin( ° ʖ ° )Puyallup WA Registered Userregular
edited February 2011
Neil wouldn't add anything imo. He's good as a background character.
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I've read this thread and the Sepinwall piece but I don't really think there is a "Pierce problem" so much as a Pierce story that we are in the middle of.
The problem is the arc seems to have ended with this last episode, and that ending just won't cut it.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
I actually couldn't care less about all these things
pierce has been hysterical as has the show so if literally episode was him being a prick and them responding like this I'd be fine with it.
also I mean, they DID try to exclude him from D&D. they cared that he od'd cause they've spent a lot of time with him.
there hasn't been that much of him in the group lately except specifically as an enemy. if the storyline is over, that means these characters feel that being an addict who also felt shunned justifies his behavior as long as he cleans up now. I can accept that, even moreso after what ArbitraryDescripter said above.
also him making neil as fat as fat neil was very funny. I laughed at it again on 3rd viewing last night.
Pierce is family. You don't kick out a family member no matter how much you despise them. The only family members I've ever written off are the ones that clearly don't want to be a part of the family anyway. Pierce's overarching crime is that he desperately wants to fit in. He's annoying, yes. He is suicidally annoying. And awkward. But his whole modus operandi, from the second episode on, has been to try and gain some clout.
Watch the way he acts in every episode and you will see that that is what his entire persona is focused on. Britta even names it in the second episode. Everything he does - his bragging about his laser lotus rank, his gadgetry, throwing around money, blustering about respect, being upset by his myriad exclusions, and so on.
Does that justify his meanness? No. But it's not out of character - it's the same Pierce, all that has increased is his bitterness. He's still clinging to the group despite how they have treated him. And whether or not they were justified in treating him that was is kind of irrelevant here when you're trying to analyze Pierce and why he is the way he is.
I don't think, I don't expect, and I don't WANT Pierce to just throw his hands in the sky and change for the better or whatever. What I think needs to happen (and what I hope DOES happen) is that the group and Pierce meet somewhere in the middle. Jeff seems to understand it somewhat at the end - that he was projecting a lot on Pierce. It doesn't excuse Pierce's behavior, but so what? In a family, you often have to deal with the dumbshit things your family members do.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
I actually couldn't care less about all these things
pierce has been hysterical as has the show so if literally episode was him being a prick and them responding like this I'd be fine with it.
See, this is where we disagree. When he goes too far I just don't find it funny anymore. Instead I find it confusing (why does anyone put up with this?) and vaguely upsetting (this stuff is not okay!).
Ironically, I think Pierce is handled the most sentimentally of anyone on the show. In real life he'd be out on his ass before you could say "terrible person." But because this is a show about community of the d'awww variety, it means that everyone has to keep coming together and re-welcoming him.
See, this is where we disagree. When he goes too far I just don't find it funny anymore. Instead I find it confusing (why does anyone put up with this?) and vaguely upsetting (this stuff is not okay!).
I got that a bit less from this episode compared to the D&D episode. Pierce was being horrific, and I was really expecting a form of retribution from the group that was more than just exclusion because he's a dick.
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I gotta watch it again cause I didn't get that vibe at all
Yeah, telling a person you barely know that you are absolutely terrible at managing your shit is kind of a dick move.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
Exactly. And IIRC the look on his face at the amount offered was pretty priceless. I mean, I could be reading more into it than was there, but I got a strong, "did you really just offer me two hundred bucks do you know who the fuck I am?" vibe.
I mean, LaVar is no Denzel, but the man doesn't have to scrounge for a plane ticket either.
I feel like we watched different scenes now.
It was a nice gesture, that he saw as completely foolish and idiotic. Because it was.
And he really didn't let her down nicely.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
And this is why LaVar will never get himself a soup goin'.
I think it was more that when people make offers like that to him, they're millionaires or something like Pierce who can afford it, so it's not a big deal to take their money. His look of shock was that it was someone broke (or maybe not she gets money from random places) like Britta who wanted to pay him just to keep him around.
It wasn't douchey
This is LeVar Burton, fuckdammit. LEVAR BURTON. THIS IS A GUY THAT CONSTANTLY HAD TO BUDGET THE ENTERPRISE'S DILITHIUM CRYSTAL ECONOMY. AND HE WAS BLIND. HE KNOWS A THING OR TWO ABOUT HOW TO MANAGE ONE'S COFFERS.
This is why I was miffed that this episode provided no grand catharsis for him. The episode was great, but it wasn't what was needed. They kicked Pierce out of the group for less in season 1. I can't think of a reason any of them would interact with him besides the fact that Troy lives with him.
Instead of turning Pierce around, they made him a bigger dick. And yeah that was totally in character and hey, subverting our expectations and playing "realistic" human characters in a t.v. show setting is what Community does but y'know what would be just as subversive and realistic? Tossing a main character for being an irredeemable dick.
Abed is Abed, and Troy and Annie don't seem the type to hate/hold grudges.
and
anyone, no matter how narcissistic, could still put up with him. As I said, it feels like he's crossed a line into the utterly inexcusable more than once. Those things aren't ha-ha wrong, they're you're-dead-to-me wrong. I understand having a wacky grouch who doesn't really have redeeming features but provides comic relief, and how that fits into the sitcom universe, but he has gone beyond wacky antics and into really awful territory.
Also, Troy lives with Pierce, so you couldn't kick Pierce without putting Troy in an awkward position.
https://twitter.com/Hooraydiation
But the writers were good enough to make Shirley likeable. I'm sure they'll chang things around.
Also, Pierce was the one who stuck with Abed the longest in the X-Mas special.
That was one of my big problems with the D&D episode. Pierce using shapechange to make Neils character as fat as Neil was in real life was an impressive level of douchebaggery (I actually paused the show stunned at Pierce's skill in destroying people), but it wasn't funny.
Of the last 4 episodes 3 of them have revolved around Pierce being a jerk. Far past time to move on to a new subject.
He didn't do that for Abed. He did it for the cookies and because the alternative was going home and being alone for the Holidays.
- Sexually harassing Shirley often
- Being unabashedly racist and sexist
- Tormenting a suicidal guy by setting out to crush him in the game he uses to escape from bullying
- Exposing Shirley slept with Chang to the whole group and her ex-husband
- Exploiting the groups kindness by turning a vulnerable moment into an opportunity to screw with them
--> as a side note, if someone tried to reunite me with my absentee dad like that, I would beat said person with a pipe. This last episode was well done and it was funny, but that Jeff/Pierce exchange was weird to watch. That is a line you do not cross. Though I suppose it did allow Jeff to come to terms with his father issues, and that made Pierce's scheme notably more forgivable.
I hope it's an arc and not a slide.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
I agree.
Arcs I would like to see more of:
Annie making ends meet (explore her backstory more)
Troy's life at Pierce's home (maybe Pierce is gone and they all have a night there looking around)
More Shirly and Shirly's husband
The problem is that according to Sepinwall the Russo brothers claimed that this was Pierce's redemption episode and if that is true the writers and producers have seriously underestimated how badly Pierce is coming off to viewers.
Pretty good conclusion right there. Last year's Christmas episode already outlined physical aggression as an american male cathartic way of blowing off steam and resetting things socially.
I would love to see Neil join the group though, maybe push back Chang and Pierce slightly. Neil is a character with a ton of potential.
Wii U NNID: MegaSpooky
Giving Fat Neil a slightly larger role might be ok though.
heh, slightly larger
PS4:MrZoompants
don't think he'd be a good group addition, though
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Your mom banged Kunta Kinte? Because you know College girls...
The problem is the arc seems to have ended with this last episode, and that ending just won't cut it.
pierce has been hysterical as has the show so if literally episode was him being a prick and them responding like this I'd be fine with it.
also I mean, they DID try to exclude him from D&D. they cared that he od'd cause they've spent a lot of time with him.
there hasn't been that much of him in the group lately except specifically as an enemy. if the storyline is over, that means these characters feel that being an addict who also felt shunned justifies his behavior as long as he cleans up now. I can accept that, even moreso after what ArbitraryDescripter said above.
also him making neil as fat as fat neil was very funny. I laughed at it again on 3rd viewing last night.
I think they spent more time making fun of Ron Howard.
SteamID: devCharles
twitter: https://twitter.com/charlesewise
Watch the way he acts in every episode and you will see that that is what his entire persona is focused on. Britta even names it in the second episode. Everything he does - his bragging about his laser lotus rank, his gadgetry, throwing around money, blustering about respect, being upset by his myriad exclusions, and so on.
Does that justify his meanness? No. But it's not out of character - it's the same Pierce, all that has increased is his bitterness. He's still clinging to the group despite how they have treated him. And whether or not they were justified in treating him that was is kind of irrelevant here when you're trying to analyze Pierce and why he is the way he is.
I don't think, I don't expect, and I don't WANT Pierce to just throw his hands in the sky and change for the better or whatever. What I think needs to happen (and what I hope DOES happen) is that the group and Pierce meet somewhere in the middle. Jeff seems to understand it somewhat at the end - that he was projecting a lot on Pierce. It doesn't excuse Pierce's behavior, but so what? In a family, you often have to deal with the dumbshit things your family members do.
See, this is where we disagree. When he goes too far I just don't find it funny anymore. Instead I find it confusing (why does anyone put up with this?) and vaguely upsetting (this stuff is not okay!).
Ironically, I think Pierce is handled the most sentimentally of anyone on the show. In real life he'd be out on his ass before you could say "terrible person." But because this is a show about community of the d'awww variety, it means that everyone has to keep coming together and re-welcoming him.
I got that a bit less from this episode compared to the D&D episode. Pierce was being horrific, and I was really expecting a form of retribution from the group that was more than just exclusion because he's a dick.
SteamID: devCharles
twitter: https://twitter.com/charlesewise