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"Plagiarism" (PA et al., 2010)

BallmanBallman Registered User regular
edited December 2010 in Debate and/or Discourse
I'm TAing an engineering course this semester. Today I sat down to grade semester project reports, and I ran into one paper in particular that periodically alternated between especially eloquent and barely coherent.

Sensing something off, I began to search Google for complete sentences from the well-written sections. Of course, I find that entire sections (longer than a page each) have been copied verbatim from both Wikipedia and a related journal article. Nowhere does she indicate that these are quotations. By the definition of our university cheating policies, this clearly constitutes plagiarism, which is punished pretty harshly. However, I'm pretty sure she didn't quite understand that what she did is against the rules. Some things in particular:

1) First of all, she is an international student from Taiwan. We often get grad students straight from China, Taiwan, South Korea, etc. with little-to-no exposure to the US system, so it wouldn't surprise me much if she has no idea that what she did is frowned upon here. Then again, I have no idea what attitudes toward plagiarism look like in Taiwan.

2) Perhaps most importantly, she made zero effort to mask her copying. Her bibliography included only two references, both of which she copied generously. If she knew it was wrong, why cite them? Also, as I said before, this published work was interspersed with her own barely understandable writing, and the transitions were very jarring. Finally, the sections copied from the journal article contain their own citations, for which their are no references in the bibliography. This alone is a dead giveaway that she did not generate this text herself.

3) And last of all, she has come to me several times during the semester for help. She's definitely had trouble in the class, but she has shown herself to be willing to go to great lengths to get help on the material. Why spend all of that time getting the extra help if you're just going to cheat?

So, D&D, I ask you: Do you think she meant to plagiarize? Should it even matter if she meant to do so? What influence does culture have on attitudes toward copying the work of others? I'm pretty new to the whole plagiarism thing, because in the engineering school, you see a lot more homework problems than written reports. Is it more common than I realize? I'm also interested in hearing what you think I should do about this girl, but I've pretty much decided what I'll do.

Ballman on
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    SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    Speaker on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Plagiarism is usually held to be a strict-liability offense, where it doesn't matter if the student in question knew what they were doing was wrong; it was their job to find out. Which usually makes sense, since if you're copy-pasting large chunks of somebody else's writing into your paper, something should be tingling in the back of your head that "that ain't right." Plus, presumably anybody who meets college entrance criteria was taught what plagiarism was back in high school.

    All that said, it sounds like her lack of understanding of our language and/or culture is probably an issue here...like you said, it was pretty obvious what she was doing, to the extent that she can't have thought she'd "get away" with it. At which point the most reasonable explanation is that she truly didn't know what she was doing, and did not now how to do it right. Since she wasn't brought up in our educational system, this is plausible.

    At which point if I were in your shoes, I'd probably not pursue disciplinary action, probably would give the paper a failing grade and talk to her about why, and then the only real choice is whether you give her an opportunity to re-do it. I might. This is assuming it's my call, obviously the professor overseeing the course may have their own policies.


    And plagiarism is fucking rampant in college. You see it less in engineering, only because we write less papers. I'll never forget the time a guy in my chem lab turned in his partner's lab write-up as his own. Collaboration was encouraged, and we were specifically told we should share our papers with our partners to give each other pointers and refine them. Well, he took hers, changed all the fonts/formatting/etc., and turned it in. But he forgot to change the name. These are the kind of idiots you will deal with in lower level college courses (and some upper level courses, though most of that bullshit gets stomped on by then).

    In general I believe the Wrath of God(TM) is what's required in such cases. Make an example of them, so nobody else tries it. But, like I said, there seem to be enough extenuating circumstances in this particular case that at least some consideration might be warranted.


    And man, I fucking hate cheaters.

    mcdermott on
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    KalTorakKalTorak One way or another, they all end up in the Undercity.Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I'm with Speaker, circumstances in this case seem to indicate that she didn't know. ON the other hand, you can't let everyone off the hook. I'm sure I've read more than one article about how kids these days (yelling at clouds here) don't understand the line between plagiarism and ... I dunno, research. It's easier than ever to plagiarize, whether you realize its wrong or not.

    KalTorak on
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    mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    KalTorak wrote: »
    I'm with Speaker, circumstances in this case seem to indicate that she didn't know. ON the other hand, you can't let everyone off the hook. I'm sure I've read more than one article about how kids these days (yelling at clouds here) don't understand the line between plagiarism and ... I dunno, research. It's easier than ever to plagiarize, whether you realize its wrong or not.

    I would argue that with the advent of search engines it's harder than ever to plagiarize. At least to have any real shot at getting away with it.

    mcdermott on
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    ZombiemamboZombiemambo Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Bring it up? I've plagiarized before by accidentally leaving out a footnote and my teacher just brought it up and told me to fix it. I'd be awfully pissed if I got kicked out of school for it.

    Zombiemambo on
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    SpeakerSpeaker Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    mcdermott wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    I'm with Speaker, circumstances in this case seem to indicate that she didn't know. ON the other hand, you can't let everyone off the hook. I'm sure I've read more than one article about how kids these days (yelling at clouds here) don't understand the line between plagiarism and ... I dunno, research. It's easier than ever to plagiarize, whether you realize its wrong or not.

    I would argue that with the advent of search engines it's harder than ever to plagiarize. At least to have any real shot at getting away with it.

    Easier to contract out someone to write your paper for you though - which is a bit harder to trace.

    Speaker on
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    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I don't think she meant to either. I think she TRIED to cite honestly and just did a really bad job of it. What I'd do is have her come in and coach her on how to do it properly, or if that's not something you can properly teach, have her go to someone that can do a better job of teaching it.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
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    adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I would gravitate towards "start the expulsion process."

    But I can understand the "give her a second chance" arguments, particularly if she's a foreign student. It's not necessarily her fault that the school admitted someone (on a graduate level?) that may or may not be qualified to do the expected coursework.

    adytum on
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    sszzishsszzish Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Sounds like someone who can't write or express herself very well in English as an ESL student. I'm sure it's incredibly frustrating being expected to write on a college level when she probably can't.

    But no matter, plagiarizing others is not okay and even if you let her slide, the next person won't. Absolutely discuss it with her one-on-one. I don't know how lenient you want to be, but maybe you could at least offer some sort of extra credit in a non-written task if you decide to fail this paper without a rewrite?

    Although it's not really your job to teach her how to write...hopefully your university offers some sort of writing help (for example, we had a writing center at my school's library) that she might not be taking the full advantage of.

    sszzish on
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    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    I would gravitate towards "start the expulsion process."

    But I can understand the "give her a second chance" arguments, particularly if she's a foreign student. It's not necessarily her fault that the school admitted someone (on a graduate level?) that may or may not be qualified to do the expected coursework.

    What pushes me in favor of a second chance is the fact that she's asked for all the help she has. She wants to do it right. She's proven that. If they show that kind of commitment, you help them out as best you can. That's the kind of student you really root for to do well. Make out a style guide, give her all the notes she needs on how to do it right.

    After the how-to-properly-cite lesson, though, if it happens again to anywhere near that kind of extent, not much you can do for her.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
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    BallmanBallman Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    All good points. I crossed out the sections of her paper that were clearly copied and graded her on the remaining material. Based on my previous interactions with her, I'd say we're looking at a combination of both her inability to communicate in written English (and perhaps resulting desperation) as well as her lack of ability to comprehend the material. I will bring it to the attention of the professor for the course; He's from India himself, so I feel he will lean toward the understanding side and won't go ballistic on her. I will absolutely point her toward our writing lab and make it clear to her in no uncertain terms that You Can't Do That.

    Ballman on
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    HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Plagiarism in higher education is ridiculously rampant. About 1/3rd of college students will admit (in anonymous surveys) to having plagiarized, and about 90% of students say they know classmates who have plagiarized.

    Plagiarism is also not well policed at many universities. Here's an anecdote that, as I see it, is not unrepresentative: the university I work at, like many colleges, has an academic honesty board that is tasked with policing cases of academic dishonesty. Given the size of the university, it's likely that there are around a thousand instances of plagiarism per year. A few years ago, every single case the review board heard one semester came from a single professor who taught two 40-person classes. Out of his 80 students, he reported something like 15 of them.

    Since you're a TA, this is something you need to discuss with the professor you're working under. But if it were me, I'd say you should at least make this girl rewrite the assignment, preferably with some sort of grade penalty. And you should also find out if there is some university-wide reporting system that you can make a record of this case in: since we created such a system a couple years ago, we discovered a number of serial plagiarizers who plagiarized in every single class across several years. Apparently they assumed that they could just plead ignorance to anyone who actually caught them, claiming that each case was "the first time they'd ever done this."

    Hedgethorn on
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    khainkhain Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Gosling wrote: »
    I don't think she meant to either. I think she TRIED to cite honestly and just did a really bad job of it. What I'd do is have her come in and coach her on how to do it properly, or if that's not something you can properly teach, have her go to someone that can do a better job of teaching it.

    I've never written or seen a paper where sections that are longer than a page are copied and cited and I really can't imagine how it would even be your paper at that point unless the paper in question is ridiculously long. For the OP, we don't know the rules for your university or the guidelines the professor set, but given that you're a TA I would think that you don't even have the authority to decide what to do and should just hand it over the professor along with what you told us about the writing and the student.

    khain on
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    HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    khain wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    I don't think she meant to either. I think she TRIED to cite honestly and just did a really bad job of it. What I'd do is have her come in and coach her on how to do it properly, or if that's not something you can properly teach, have her go to someone that can do a better job of teaching it.

    I've never written or seen a paper where sections that are longer than a page are copied and cited and I really can't imagine how it would even be your paper at that point unless the paper in question is ridiculously long. For the OP, we don't know the rules for your university or the guidelines the professor set, but given that you're a TA I would think that you don't even have the authority to decide what to do and should just hand it over the professor along with what you told us about the writing and the student.

    I've had students hand in a 5-page paper where over 60% of the paper is a cut-and-paste job from the assigned reading.

    Hedgethorn on
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    iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Hedgethorn wrote: »
    khain wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    I don't think she meant to either. I think she TRIED to cite honestly and just did a really bad job of it. What I'd do is have her come in and coach her on how to do it properly, or if that's not something you can properly teach, have her go to someone that can do a better job of teaching it.

    I've never written or seen a paper where sections that are longer than a page are copied and cited and I really can't imagine how it would even be your paper at that point unless the paper in question is ridiculously long. For the OP, we don't know the rules for your university or the guidelines the professor set, but given that you're a TA I would think that you don't even have the authority to decide what to do and should just hand it over the professor along with what you told us about the writing and the student.

    I've had students hand in a 5-page paper where over 60% of the paper is a cut-and-paste job from the assigned reading.

    Got through Native American Relgions like that. Pass-Fail like a motherfucker.

    iguanacus on
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    Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You are correct about the cultural gap. In China and Taiwan, copying is very, very common- the paradigm of instruction there is very often rote memorization and simply displaying a knowledge of a given expert's understanding. Repeating a professor's lecture in a paper is a good way to succeed.

    Every professor I know with students from China or Taiwan complains about this; they're not really taught to do, they're taught to know. There's no emphasis on discussion in classes, etc. It's a leftover cultural trait from Confucian-style education. It's one reason why Chinese corporations send their engineers, researchers and scientists to western universities for training, because at a Chinese university they won't be taught to create their own ideas, just reflect back the ideas of respected experts.

    She almost certainly has no idea how strongly that sort of thing is frowned upon in the west.

    Professor Phobos on
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    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You are correct about the cultural gap. In China and Taiwan, copying is very, very common- the paradigm of instruction there is very often rote memorization and simply displaying a knowledge of a given expert's understanding. Repeating a professor's lecture in a paper is a good way to succeed.

    Every professor I know with students from China or Taiwan complains about this; they're not really taught to do, they're taught to know. There's no emphasis on discussion in classes, etc. It's a leftover cultural trait from Confucian-style education. It's one reason why Chinese corporations send their engineers, researchers and scientists to western universities for training, because at a Chinese university they won't be taught to create their own ideas, just reflect back the ideas of respected experts.

    She almost certainly has no idea how strongly that sort of thing is frowned upon in the west.

    Not even limited to the east. One of the books I've got laying around, Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman (suggested by someone on the boards; thanks to whoever that was), talked about how Feynman went down to Brazil once to see what kind of education system they had, and he said they weren't even teaching. The professor would just read off a term right out of the textbook, the students would repeat it in their notes word for word, memorize the exact phrase and that's it. All it took was the same factoid rephrased into a differently-worded sentence to utterly stifle them. They could tell you for instance, 'Water is made up of two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom', but they could not tell you 'Two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom combine to form water'.

    I'm not up on how Brazil has gotten on since then, but the point is it can literally get to those lengths.

    EDIT: ...and five seconds of Googling says Brazil hasn't progressed from that. And, more pertinent to your case, Ballman, India is much the same way.

    Gosling on
    I have a new soccer blog The Minnow Tank. Reading it psychically kicks Sepp Blatter in the bean bag.
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    NewblarNewblar Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I work as a TA too so I’ve dealt with some ethical issues similar to this. If it was just a couple missing footnotes or something you could have a discussion with the student about it but for something this majorly plagiarized whether intentional or unintentional it isn’t really your purgative to decide what the penalty should be. Honestly this is an issue for the professor to deal with as if you make a really poor decision you can lose your job and if a student be personally expelled.

    Even though student’s caught cheating willfully or unknowingly can be expelled, my school at least for my student’s has given them a zero for the particular assignment and made the students sit through a meeting with the assistant dean of the faculty.

    I can understand the empathy, I’ve had it myself for students that try really hard and may have unknowingly screwed up which is somewhat understandable for citations as many majors never tell students anything about how to properly cite.

    Due to your looking the things up online I’m just curious if your school has a policy in regards to Turnitin.com. I’ve never used it myself but all my classes mention it in the course outline, with almost every teacher discussing it in the first lecture and several making students sign waivers for every assignment.

    Newblar on
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    hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    My friend who has TAed graduate-level statistics courses has had the same complaint. In TAing undergraduates, I've noticed a trend of increased blatant plagiarism among students with Asian-sounding names, but admittedly that might be because they're easier to catch/I'm a horrible racist. She probably doesn't even know it's plagiarism.

    I don't know about you, but here the policy for TAs is always to take it to the prof and let him/her deal with it. If I were the prof though, I'd just let her rewrite it, because to get a heavily penalized mark in a graduate course would basically be the equivalent of failing. (Or at least, up here in Canada it would be.)

    hippofant on
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    CycloneRangerCycloneRanger Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You are correct about the cultural gap. In China and Taiwan, copying is very, very common- the paradigm of instruction there is very often rote memorization and simply displaying a knowledge of a given expert's understanding. Repeating a professor's lecture in a paper is a good way to succeed.

    Every professor I know with students from China or Taiwan complains about this; they're not really taught to do, they're taught to know. There's no emphasis on discussion in classes, etc. It's a leftover cultural trait from Confucian-style education. It's one reason why Chinese corporations send their engineers, researchers and scientists to western universities for training, because at a Chinese university they won't be taught to create their own ideas, just reflect back the ideas of respected experts.

    She almost certainly has no idea how strongly that sort of thing is frowned upon in the west.
    Well, this is news to me. I was more in the "time to walk the plank" camp after reading the OP; it seems ludicrous that something like this would be accepted in a university setting anywhere.

    I'm a little reminded of Feynman's description of Brazil's educational system in his first autobiography, though. I believe he described a situation where he asked some students to explain a phenomenon, knowing that the answer involved exactly what they'd been studying. He marveled at how no one could answer it--though of course they had mastered the relevant equations and could recall them immediately.

    It's weird, though, because to me this is the very antithesis of engineering. There's no use whatsoever in memorizing something you don't understand; everything you design as an engineer will be at least a little bit new (and all the best jobs involve working on completely new things).

    I had classmates who thought in this way, too, and they generally kicked my ass on the exams. I sometimes wished I could do that, but as strange as it may sound I (an engineer) have no mind for figures and equations. I can't even remember the quadratic formula. I had to formulate everything in terms of relationships and "what does this tell me about the world" rather than symbols. An equation I didn't understand intuitively would fall right out of my head three minutes after I saw it.

    Mostly this sucked, although I can remember one time when I managed to solve an exam problem in a way completely unrelated to what we had been studying without even realizing it. The next day the professor put it up on the board and walked everyone through the problem the way I'd solved it.

    [Edit: Beat'd on the Feynman.]

    CycloneRanger on
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    BallmanBallman Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Hm. I hadn't really thought about getting in trouble myself, but it's a good point. I'll definitely leave it up to the professor's discretion. In all honesty, something I hadn't mentioned is that the professor is my research adviser anyway. I've worked with him for about 3.5 years and am pretty familiar with how he works, so I'm not terribly worried about how it's going to pan out. He is not above giving a student an incomplete grade and making them work for the grade during the following semester. I figure the worst-case scenario is he makes her re-write the paper for a passing grade. I do hope that this isn't a recurring problem with her, though.

    Ballman on
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    hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    It's not just in school. I'd suggest that it's partly a cultural issue: China's rapid industrial modernization has been mostly "unearned", from an intellectual standpoint. They've never developed an appreciation for a rigourous academic process; the concern was always "as much modernization, as much technology, as much wealth, as fast as possible" and the solution to that was memorization and copying. Societally, it's never been of (much) benefit to Chinese academics, and society in general, to be inventive.

    Strong medicine for China's journals
    Approximately one-third of the roughly 5,000 predominantly Chinese-language journals are 'campus journals', existing only so that graduate students and professors can accumulate the publications necessary for career advancement, according to one senior publisher. And in a Correspondence to Nature last week, Yuehong Zhang of the Journal of Zhejiang University–Science reported that a staggering 31% of the papers submitted to that campus journal contained plagiarized material ( Nature 467, 153; 2010).

    Most Chinese journals make their money through funding from their host institutions, and by charging authors per-page publishing fees. "Most are never cited. Who knows if they're even really published. They're ghosts," says one publisher, who declined to be named. Wu Haiyun, a cardiologist at the Chinese PLA General Hospital in Beijing, says that only 5–10% of these journals are worth saving, and the rest are "information pollution".

    China searches for best medicine for ailing scientific journals
    For good reason, says Sun Jianzhong, a doctor in Qingtian People’s Hospital in the southeastern province of Zhejiang. “Many Chinese scientific journals are neither scrupulous nor scientific. Articles published in these journals are not intended to impact or influence scientific research. They are used for the sake of promoting one’s career.”

    China research hurt by plagiarism, faked results
    When professors in China need to author research papers to get promoted, many turn to people like Lu Keqian....

    State-run media recently exulted over reports that China publishes more papers in international journals than any except the U.S. But not all the research stands up to scrutiny. In December, a British journal retracted 70 papers from a Chinese university, all by the same two lead scientists, saying the work had been fabricated.

    hippofant on
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    TheOrangeTheOrange Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Well, you'd be surprised how many students do not understand the underlying concepts of their current courses. My brother work in learning difficulties, he says that the problems starts as early as 3rd grade; the example he told me was about a high school student who got this far without ever properly learning fractions.

    He did it because you don't need fractions to get a passing grade in earlier years, if I can pass without one piece of knowledge, why should I get that piece?

    I’m ashamed to admit that I only learned, or was forced to learn, the difference between their, there and they’re on this forum at the age of 25, I’m pretty sure it was there somewhere in my mid-school books, I just didn’t bother.

    Added: A good meassure used to gauge a university's competence is to count the times papers from that university have been cited, this way you know that someone found that paper to be useful.

    TheOrange on
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    DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    In my legal writing class we are scared to death of even the appearance of plagiarism and it doesn't help that the nature of the writing makes it so that we are basically each saying the same thing. After all when you take 100 people, tell them to write about whether or not Person A has a case against Person B, and they all draw from the same legal cases and texts, every group of ten people out of that 100 will say pretty close to the exact same thing.

    DoctorArch on
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    DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    As far as the particular plagiarism case in the OP, I would suggest talking to the student first, say that you had some issues with the paper and see what she says of it. Her response should help you to decide how intentional it was.

    DarkPrimus on
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    BarcardiBarcardi All the Wizards Under A Rock: AfganistanRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    If she has a bibliography she knows what plagiarism is.

    Barcardi on
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    lonelyahavalonelyahava Call me Ahava ~~She/Her~~ Move to New ZealandRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    i would say that since she has the sources cited in the bibliography, that she's halfway there. She knows that she has to give credit, but she might not be familiar with the proper structure of HOW to give the credit in the paper.

    And coming from an english major, sometimes that shit be tough to remember.

    Definitely take it to the prof.


    Can you plagiarize yourself?

    lonelyahava on
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    NibbleNibble Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    As someone who actually lives, works, and studies in Taiwan, I can tell you that everyone here is quite clear on the concept of plagiarism, and they know that it's cheating; it's just that they are very likely to do it anyway if they think they won't get caught. They often jokingly refer to plagiarism as "heavy referencing" or something like that. The information about the poor quality of education in Asia that was posted on the previous page is quite accurate. There is very little focus on individual thinking, creativity, problem solving, etc. in elementary, secondary, or undergraduate education here. They focus entirely on memorizing as many facts as possible and spitting them out in multiple-choice exams, even for topics like art, music, and language/literature. When they get to graduate school, or if they go to the West to study, they suddenly find that they have almost no ability to develop and write about ideas on their own. Even in Masters and PhD programs in Taiwan, a lot of students get others, including their own professors, to write their theses/dissertations for them. It's really quite depressing.

    Nibble on
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    override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You are correct about the cultural gap. In China and Taiwan, copying is very, very common- the paradigm of instruction there is very often rote memorization and simply displaying a knowledge of a given expert's understanding. Repeating a professor's lecture in a paper is a good way to succeed.

    Every professor I know with students from China or Taiwan complains about this; they're not really taught to do, they're taught to know. There's no emphasis on discussion in classes, etc. It's a leftover cultural trait from Confucian-style education. It's one reason why Chinese corporations send their engineers, researchers and scientists to western universities for training, because at a Chinese university they won't be taught to create their own ideas, just reflect back the ideas of respected experts.

    She almost certainly has no idea how strongly that sort of thing is frowned upon in the west.
    Well, this is news to me. I was more in the "time to walk the plank" camp after reading the OP; it seems ludicrous that something like this would be accepted in a university setting anywhere.

    I'm a little reminded of Feynman's description of Brazil's educational system in his first autobiography, though. I believe he described a situation where he asked some students to explain a phenomenon, knowing that the answer involved exactly what they'd been studying. He marveled at how no one could answer it--though of course they had mastered the relevant equations and could recall them immediately.

    It's weird, though, because to me this is the very antithesis of engineering. There's no use whatsoever in memorizing something you don't understand; everything you design as an engineer will be at least a little bit new (and all the best jobs involve working on completely new things).

    I had classmates who thought in this way, too, and they generally kicked my ass on the exams. I sometimes wished I could do that, but as strange as it may sound I (an engineer) have no mind for figures and equations. I can't even remember the quadratic formula. I had to formulate everything in terms of relationships and "what does this tell me about the world" rather than symbols. An equation I didn't understand intuitively would fall right out of my head three minutes after I saw it.

    Mostly this sucked, although I can remember one time when I managed to solve an exam problem in a way completely unrelated to what we had been studying without even realizing it. The next day the professor put it up on the board and walked everyone through the problem the way I'd solved it.

    [Edit: Beat'd on the Feynman.]

    I'm no engineer but as an academic tutor I run into this constantly. PC Basics is required for every single associates degree at the college I'm going to and very few students want to learn, they just have me read them the instructions in the book step by step to get the assignments in. The problem is that when they end becoming accountants or nurses or whatever if they can't work a program as basic as Excel, they're going to be in a world of shit.

    I've been in 2 classes so far where memorization was key, and thankfully only two, because how is that valued at all? You've just wasted your time in class, not learned anything.

    override367 on
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    GoslingGosling Looking Up Soccer In Mongolia Right Now, Probably Watertown, WIRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Seriously. As I progressed through school- a process when I over the years moved from 'encyclopedia collections in the house' to 'go to the library and look stuff up' to 'go to the school library and rent the computer there' to 'get own computer but are strongly recommended to use as many offline sources as possible' to 'have to use at least one offline source' to 'fuck it, we're all Googling everything anyway'- memorization got less and less important, and by the end memorization was pretty much last-resort in-case-all-your-other-80-million-information-gathering-methods-fail stuff.

    When memorization was the only way you could often guarantee your hanging on to a particular factoid, sure, you needed it. It still is in a lot of less-developed countries where storytelling has historically been a way to pass down knowledge (what other way did they have?) Here, now? Everyone on this board has the exact same Internet as a source and we all know it. We need to remember something, we just pop in a couple of search terms and scroll down until we see something familiar.

    Gosling on
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    The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2010
    True, but you still won't be nearly as accomplished at problem-solving in your day-to-day career if you can't remember at least a decent fraction of what passes through your head. There's a balance between memorisation and higher-level reasoning that I think western education had for a long time, but we're slipping off track with our reluctance to accept that not all learning is inductive reasoning, or if you will, the main quest in the game of school. Some of it has to be level grinding.

    The Cat on
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    HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Can you plagiarize yourself?

    Yes you can. The issue here isn't trying to pass off someone else's work as your own, but trying to pass off old work as new.

    Although it would make "publish or perish" much easier to survive if you could just copy-n-paste the same paper a dozen different times.

    Hedgethorn on
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    ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You are correct about the cultural gap. In China and Taiwan, copying is very, very common- the paradigm of instruction there is very often rote memorization and simply displaying a knowledge of a given expert's understanding. Repeating a professor's lecture in a paper is a good way to succeed.

    Every professor I know with students from China or Taiwan complains about this; they're not really taught to do, they're taught to know. There's no emphasis on discussion in classes, etc. It's a leftover cultural trait from Confucian-style education. It's one reason why Chinese corporations send their engineers, researchers and scientists to western universities for training, because at a Chinese university they won't be taught to create their own ideas, just reflect back the ideas of respected experts.

    She almost certainly has no idea how strongly that sort of thing is frowned upon in the west.

    It gets a little worse than that; the reason such systems persist is that you are actively penalized if you diverge from simply reproducing notes. Examinations test for the ability to quote from an extremely broad set of reading while under time pressure; because this is an effective (if dubiously useful) test for diligence and discipline, it is relied on very heavily for university entrance. This signal thus becomes self-perpetuating: because it is relied on so heavily for university entrance, students invest their effort in training themselves to quote from memory extensively. Because students do so, there is no need for universities to even consider applications from students who put effort toward other things instead.

    And because that is how the system is, pre-university and high school teachers will penalize students for irrelevance if they wander off the well-beaten trail. It's not their fault, the vast majority of their students will go to local universities which don't want students who can't rapidly memorize and then cite from memory.

    Okay. All this said, I had five years of students from the PRC handing me essays and asking for editing. From my anecdotal experience: (1) the jarring transitions going quoting-badgrammar-quoting-badgrammar are common. My completely evidence-free speculation is that this is because Chinese and English are sufficiently different that the (non-native-speaking) reader's sense that something is wrong and qualitatively different just misfires; I know I certainly ended up do the quoting thing when writing Chinese essays. And getting back an essay covered in red ???? scribbled everywhere, because the end result was well and truly incoherent, even if I didn't realize it at all when writing. You see a few words you recognize from what little you've learnt, and then your mind fills in the gaps of what you think the other words say, and you don't know how to rephrase the ideas so you quote, and when you start quoting extensively from a misunderstanding, the end result just becomes ????.

    (2) the liberal use of copypasta tends to suggest understanding but an inability to express it in English. At least, it did for the people who came to me for translation. If you have time, consider asking some probing questions about the essay matter. Even in Chinese traditional education, quoting badly is not considered desirable.

    ronya on
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    DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Speaker wrote: »
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    This. This exactly.

    I've tutored/edited the papers of ESL college students and...yeah. I've seen some extremely intelligent students just learning English not "get" the way our papers are meant to be written. To be honest, sometimes the citation syntax is confusing to me, and I've been writing papers since 1852.

    I can empathize with the mindset of "it's the student's responsibility to learn what is expected of the student" but if it's a choice between torching an ESL student's career or giving them the benefit of the doubt and using the opportunity to guide them for future papers, perhaps even pointing them toward some of the college's resources or recommending a tutor, I'd go with the latter

    Drez on
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    PonyPony Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    as the internet integrates itself further into our lives

    and academic institutions actively utilize searchable databases and the internet in general to make sure students do not plagiarize work

    inevitably, it will be impossible to not plagiarize on some subjects.

    the more narrow an assigned paper's question or subject or thesis is, the more it becomes likely that students will simply run out of new ways to say things that have already been said.

    Pony on
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    Professor PhobosProfessor Phobos Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pony wrote: »
    as the internet integrates itself further into our lives

    and academic institutions actively utilize searchable databases and the internet in general to make sure students do not plagiarize work

    inevitably, it will be impossible to not plagiarize on some subjects.

    the more narrow an assigned paper's question or subject or thesis is, the more it becomes likely that students will simply run out of new ways to say things that have already been said.

    I think it's unlikely they'll ever reproduce more than a sentence or two in terms of text, and so long as the ideas are original, there's no problem.

    Professor Phobos on
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    OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    The Cat wrote: »
    True, but you still won't be nearly as accomplished at problem-solving in your day-to-day career if you can't remember at least a decent fraction of what passes through your head. There's a balance between memorisation and higher-level reasoning that I think western education had for a long time, but we're slipping off track with our reluctance to accept that not all learning is inductive reasoning, or if you will, the main quest in the game of school. Some of it has to be level grinding.
    By the time you've actually got a career, though, you're going to be looking at the same sort of thing over and over again. That stuff is going to get thoroughly networked in your brain, and you'll be able to come at it from all different directions.

    On contrast, that class you took in Russian Literature during the Revolution is only going to be useful for arguments on the internet, so having to look it up won't be a huge deal. It will still be there, it just won't be as fully networked and you'll have to be able to come at it from a certain angle to really remember it.

    The information age just takes good old Information Processing Theory and expands the definition of weak networking to include things we can google.

    OptimusZed on
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    KistraKistra Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    If it were September or October I could see you being a little lenient. But there is no way a college student got to December without writing papers. Obviously the final decisions are up to the professor and it sounds like you want to not tell the school, but I think the school should be notified about this incident so that if it happens again, the person grading that paper knows that plagiarism has been explained to this student and she has already been given a second chance.

    This isn't the case of a citation that has the wrong syntax or messing up how to quote something.

    Kistra on
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    RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    For plagiarism, I use a one-strike-and-you're-out policy. Sit down the student, talk to her, make sure she knows what she did wrong and understands it. She obviously knows what references are, so maybe she just doesn't understand the line between citing and plagiarizing. Or maybe she's struggling with the language so much that she got desperate and made a stupid mistake. Or maybe, or maybe... Give her a chance to explain and understand what she did wrong. Then find a justifiable punishment - rewrite the report for less marks, or simply zero on that one.

    Forgive, but don't forget. Prepare an official letter describing the event and what you told the student, sign it, and have the student sign it. Have it added to her file. Tell your prof and department chair (informally) about the event. If the student is honest, it won't happen again and that's that. If she is not, next time she plagiarizes she'll get caught, and with a signed letter confirming that she did it before, knew it was wrong and was given a chance to never do it again, she'll be out and will deserve it.

    Richy on
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    enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Disclaimer: I have been teaching college for a living for about 7 years now.

    Since you're only a TA, the first thing you have to make sure is that you have authority when it comes to plagiarism. There's a chance whatever prof is in charge of you is supposed to deal with those. If he isn't, you still want to tell him about it before taking any action.

    Second, plagiarism is widespread in term papers. You should expect to catch several every semester or there's a good chance there's plagiarism sneaking by you.

    On to the meat of this topic. Unfortunately many "innocent" plagiarizers will continue this behavior course after course, which is why we need the record keeping. Every school policy I'm familiar with has a graduated penalty system because of that. Usually a variety of the following:

    1st offence: 0 on assignment.
    2nd offence: 0 in course.
    3rd offence: expulsion.

    If so, I advise you to report. If the student hasn't plagiarized before, she'll receive an appropriate punishment and more importantly be on record. If she has plagiarized before and been officially reprimanded, then she's got it coming.

    If on the other hand you're at a "zero tolerance" (1st offence = expulsion) school, I would advise sweeping it under the rug. Have the student come to your office hours and have The Talk. Then assign a make-up paper twice in length and be done with it.

    enc0re on
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