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"Plagiarism" (PA et al., 2010)

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    This. This exactly.

    I've tutored/edited the papers of ESL college students and...yeah. I've seen some extremely intelligent students just learning English not "get" the way our papers are meant to be written. To be honest, sometimes the citation syntax is confusing to me, and I've been writing papers since 1852.

    I can empathize with the mindset of "it's the student's responsibility to learn what is expected of the student" but if it's a choice between torching an ESL student's career or giving them the benefit of the doubt and using the opportunity to guide them for future papers, perhaps even pointing them toward some of the college's resources or recommending a tutor, I'd go with the latter

    I think the most pertinent question here is is Drez a Vampire or what?

    Fencingsax on
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    And by god, if you haven't yet, understand the employee, faculty, and student handbooks forwards and backwards on this issue. There will be multiple specific procedures to follow and responsibilities you have.

    enc0re on
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I would imagine that the language barrier is the largest reason for it. That's what it seems to me, I don't think there was actually malice there. So I think deferring it to the other teacher for the languagey stuff was probably the better thing.

    I wonder what teachers would've done if they found out I made up 3 sources on a past paper because one of the "you need these to get a passable mark" requirements was like 8 sources and I could only find 5 that were in, any way, reliable.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • PantsBPantsB Fake Thomas Jefferson Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    mcdermott wrote: »
    At which point if I were in your shoes, I'd probably not pursue disciplinary action, probably would give the paper a failing grade and talk to her about why, and then the only real choice is whether you give her an opportunity to re-do it. I might. This is assuming it's my call, obviously the professor overseeing the course may have their own policies.
    I agree with this. If I wanted to be lenient I might allow a new paper on a new topic (so it had to be entirely redone) but even if you want to see it as not plagiarism with malice (if you will), the work still hasn't been done and its plagiarism. There has to be a consequence.
    And plagiarism is fucking rampant in college. ... These are the kind of idiots you will deal with in lower level college courses (and some upper level courses, though most of that bullshit gets stomped on by then).

    College freshmen are some of the worst people around. There are lots and lots of exceptions of course but honestly they tend to suck. Some grow out of it, some fail out and either discover the reason their parents had rules for a reason and some just continue to suck forever.


    Also, it may be culturally common in non-Western education systems to just parrot information back. It may be that this student is not comfortable with English. Who cares? OK, you cut some slack because it most likely was not intentional. But if this student was from Iowa and couldn't express themselves adequately or it didn't seem like they understood what plagiarism was you wouldn't give them extra slack, you'd say they were not qualified to be in the program. Foreign students can definitely succeed in US universities, especially with English becoming the world language in many ways. In my experience half of the foreign students in Engineering were either very hard workers who were prepared and half were wasting everyone's time with inadequate linguistic and cultural skills to even contribute even with extra help. If they lack the tools to succeed, they should be taking a prep year.

    PantsB on
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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    I wonder what teachers would've done if they found out I made up 3 sources on a past paper because one of the "you need these to get a passable mark" requirements was like 8 sources and I could only find 5 that were in, any way, reliable.

    At my college, fabrication counts the same as plagiarism.

    enc0re on
  • Bionic MonkeyBionic Monkey Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited December 2010
    Can you plagiarize yourself?

    Yes actually, you can. Some of the more stringent anti-plagiarism lectures I've been through (as part of class, not as punishment) have specifically called out using your previous work for other classes as plagiarism.

    Bionic Monkey on
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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    And another bit of advice to massively cut down on plagiarism: make your paper topic specific and original enough that there isn't anything plagiarizable out there.

    enc0re on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    Speaker wrote: »
    Sounds like a teachable moment about footnoting more than a serious attempt to get one passed you.

    I think you have to lean pretty far toward benefit of the doubt with ESL students.

    This. This exactly.

    I've tutored/edited the papers of ESL college students and...yeah. I've seen some extremely intelligent students just learning English not "get" the way our papers are meant to be written. To be honest, sometimes the citation syntax is confusing to me, and I've been writing papers since 1852.

    I can empathize with the mindset of "it's the student's responsibility to learn what is expected of the student" but if it's a choice between torching an ESL student's career or giving them the benefit of the doubt and using the opportunity to guide them for future papers, perhaps even pointing them toward some of the college's resources or recommending a tutor, I'd go with the latter

    I think the most pertinent question here is is Drez a Vampire or what?

    No, I just take my vitamins.

    Drez on
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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    PantsB wrote: »
    It may be that this student is not comfortable with English. Who cares? OK, you cut some slack because it most likely was not intentional. But if this student was from Iowa and couldn't express themselves adequately or it didn't seem like they understood what plagiarism was you wouldn't give them extra slack, you'd say they were not qualified to be in the program.

    Plus, there's a huge equal opportunity issue here. You can't treat students differently based on national origin anymore than you can based on race, sex, or age.

    enc0re on
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    enc0re wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    I wonder what teachers would've done if they found out I made up 3 sources on a past paper because one of the "you need these to get a passable mark" requirements was like 8 sources and I could only find 5 that were in, any way, reliable.

    At my college, fabrication counts the same as plagiarism.

    Luckily for me there was nothing about fabrication in the student handbook. Almost a god damn book just about plagiarism though. Apparently self-plagiarism wasn't allowed if the classes were similar enough. Though, you could cite yourself if it was published.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    PantsB wrote: »
    But if this student was from Iowa and couldn't express themselves adequately or it didn't seem like they understood what plagiarism was you wouldn't give them extra slack, you'd say they were not qualified to be in the program.

    :x
    Iowa has one of the best public education systems in the nation, thank you very much.
    :P

    Hedgethorn on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    enc0re wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    It may be that this student is not comfortable with English. Who cares? OK, you cut some slack because it most likely was not intentional. But if this student was from Iowa and couldn't express themselves adequately or it didn't seem like they understood what plagiarism was you wouldn't give them extra slack, you'd say they were not qualified to be in the program.

    Plus, there's a huge equal opportunity issue here. You can't treat students differently based on national origin anymore than you can based on race, sex, or age.

    There's a big difference between treating ESL students differently because of their national origin and cutting an ESL student a little slack or at least giving them the benefit of the doubt and conversing with them about the issue before burning them at the stake because English is their second language.

    Someone from Iowa grew up indoctrinated in American education standards. Someone from Europe didn't. Do they deserve privilege as a result? No. But maybe a little empathy is in order before having a permanent mark added to their student record.

    And for the record, I think it would be wise to speak to any student first, before just reporting them for plagiarism.

    Also: I find your comment about equal opportunity bizarre. In grammar school, teachers will often spend more time with "slower" students. Does that violate equal opportunity? Also, I had to miss a French final one semester in college due to a death in my family. The teacher allowed me to do an alternate assignment. Was I the recipient of privilege over the other students?

    Education has to be fluid. If you treat every student the same no matter what the circumstances, you might as well replace yourself with a tape recorder.

    Drez on
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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You can treat students differently for sucking at English. You cannot treat them differently whether they suck at English because they are from Iowa or because they are from China. That's where you have to watch out.

    enc0re on
  • DrukDruk Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    How basic is the course in the OP? Is there a more basic writing course that you can suggest to the school/professor that the student should be required to take before moving on with their other courses?

    Druk on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    enc0re wrote: »
    You can treat students differently for sucking at English. You cannot treat them differently whether they suck at English because they are from Iowa or because they are from China. That's where you have to watch out.

    Okay, fair enough. I get a little defensive in this topic because I've worked with many ESL students, some of whom are much smarter than a lot of EFLs I know, but suffer because of the language and sometimes the cultural barrier.

    Drez on
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  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I'm ESL and a former foreign student myself. I understand where you're coming from.

    enc0re on
  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    enc0re wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    It may be that this student is not comfortable with English. Who cares? OK, you cut some slack because it most likely was not intentional. But if this student was from Iowa and couldn't express themselves adequately or it didn't seem like they understood what plagiarism was you wouldn't give them extra slack, you'd say they were not qualified to be in the program.

    Plus, there's a huge equal opportunity issue here. You can't treat students differently based on national origin anymore than you can based on race, sex, or age.

    Just to reiterate, because this one particular infuriates me.

    When I was in school, a buddy and I volunteered as lab supervisors in the CS labs. This was about evenly divided between helping non-CS students use the computers and helping CS students with their assignments. We had to go through a big anti-plagiarism workshop to help us understand what the limits were on the help we can provide. As an example, it's fine to point a student at a library or API that might help them, it's not fine to help them write an algorithm. Our other duty was enforcing the "no food or beverages" rule, since there was a coffee shop in the same building. Well, one day when my friend was on duty, he left the lab to get a coffee and also left his computer on, unlocked. Plugged into it was a thumb drive with a bunch of his assignments and stuff on them. This was something we'd done pretty regularly, up until this point.

    Now, we're not sure what exactly happened, but somehow a group of students got hold of these assignments, particularly ones for a course my friend and I had done the previous semester. A couple of days later, the prof from that class calls him in. He'd received half a dozen copy of my friend's assignment, submitted by students currently taking the class. The prof told my friend he was bringing it to the senate disciplinary committee, but tells my friend "not to worry" because he's "the victim". Well he gets called in front of the disciplinary committee, and the first thing they put on the table is academic suspension. At this point, he panicked and talked to his dad, who's a lawyer, and wound up going back to the disciplinary with another lawyer from his dad's firm. In the end he received a warning, which was put in his transcript and was brought up again a few years later when he applied to medical school (though he did get in). The students who had copied his assignment were all international students, and since they pay way more to be at the school, the school found that there were cultural differences, they didn't know better, etc, so they just got 0 for the assignment with no note in their transcript.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I can't help but be reminded of the star trek episode where the aliens want to use the death penalty on Wesley Crusher for trespassing. This is something where, sure the east asian students know that it's wrong to plagiarize, but it's just not punished very harshly in schools there. It's a much more minor offense than it is in western culture.

    I'd be inclined to let the student slide on this one, since they did do at least some original writing, and presumably a lot of the copying was so he/she could avoid writing in English. It's not like any of the students are generating any original content here, it's all just rehashed from secondary sources.

    Pi-r8 on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    enc0re wrote: »
    PantsB wrote: »
    It may be that this student is not comfortable with English. Who cares? OK, you cut some slack because it most likely was not intentional. But if this student was from Iowa and couldn't express themselves adequately or it didn't seem like they understood what plagiarism was you wouldn't give them extra slack, you'd say they were not qualified to be in the program.

    Plus, there's a huge equal opportunity issue here. You can't treat students differently based on national origin anymore than you can based on race, sex, or age.

    Just to reiterate, because this one particular infuriates me.

    When I was in school, a buddy and I volunteered as lab supervisors in the CS labs. This was about evenly divided between helping non-CS students use the computers and helping CS students with their assignments. We had to go through a big anti-plagiarism workshop to help us understand what the limits were on the help we can provide. As an example, it's fine to point a student at a library or API that might help them, it's not fine to help them write an algorithm. Our other duty was enforcing the "no food or beverages" rule, since there was a coffee shop in the same building. Well, one day when my friend was on duty, he left the lab to get a coffee and also left his computer on, unlocked. Plugged into it was a thumb drive with a bunch of his assignments and stuff on them. This was something we'd done pretty regularly, up until this point.

    Now, we're not sure what exactly happened, but somehow a group of students got hold of these assignments, particularly ones for a course my friend and I had done the previous semester. A couple of days later, the prof from that class calls him in. He'd received half a dozen copy of my friend's assignment, submitted by students currently taking the class. The prof told my friend he was bringing it to the senate disciplinary committee, but tells my friend "not to worry" because he's "the victim". Well he gets called in front of the disciplinary committee, and the first thing they put on the table is academic suspension. At this point, he panicked and talked to his dad, who's a lawyer, and wound up going back to the disciplinary with another lawyer from his dad's firm. In the end he received a warning, which was put in his transcript and was brought up again a few years later when he applied to medical school (though he did get in). The students who had copied his assignment were all international students, and since they pay way more to be at the school, the school found that there were cultural differences, they didn't know better, etc, so they just got 0 for the assignment with no note in their transcript.

    That doesn't sound anything like an equal opportunity issue. That sounds like the school was being economically shady and using "cultural difference" as justification. It also sounds like the school got away with it, which actually disproves the point you are responding to (that treating international students differently violates equal opportunity).

    Drez on
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  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    That doesn't sound anything like an equal opportunity issue. That sounds like the school was being economically shady and using "cultural difference" as justification. It also sounds like the school got away with it, which actually disproves the point you are responding to (that treating international students differently violates equal opportunity).

    Well, the financial thing is purely my own opinion, because it's not as if the school came out and said "they pay more so LOL". That said, how is that not an equal opportunity issue? Just because the school seems to have got away with something doesn't make it right, or even correct within the scope of their own policies - universities are perfectly capable of breaking their own rules.

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  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    As an undergrad, I've had my school's policies on academic integrity explained to me, both in syllabi and in e-mails from the university itself, at least a half-dozen times per semester. Plagiarism was also the first lesson in the introductory course on academic writing.

    Does this sort of thing stop at the graduate level, such that you could expect an international grad student to overlook the policies until he or she runs into problems in class?

    Robos A Go Go on
  • adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    As an undergrad, I've had my school's policies on academic integrity explained to me, both in syllabi and in e-mails from the university itself, at least a half-dozen times per semester. Plagiarism was also the first lesson in the introductory course on academic writing.

    Does this sort of thing stop at the graduate level, such that you could expect an international grad student to overlook the policies until he or she runs into problems in class?

    I am a graduate student, and

    1) I had to sit through a lecture on plagiarism before attending any classes.
    2) I had to sign an agreement that I understood that there was a 0 tolerance policy on plagiarism and that if I was caught with any uncited work in a paper I would be immediately expelled.
    3) Every syllabus explicitly restates that plagiarism is unacceptable in all circumstances and will result in immediate expulsion.

    adytum on
  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    As an undergrad, I've had my school's policies on academic integrity explained to me, both in syllabi and in e-mails from the university itself, at least a half-dozen times per semester. Plagiarism was also the first lesson in the introductory course on academic writing.

    Does this sort of thing stop at the graduate level, such that you could expect an international grad student to overlook the policies until he or she runs into problems in class?

    I am a graduate student, and

    1) I had to sit through a lecture on plagiarism before attending any classes.
    2) I had to sign an agreement that I understood that there was a 0 tolerance policy on plagiarism and that if I was caught with any uncited work in a paper I would be immediately expelled.
    3) Every syllabus explicitly restates that plagiarism is unacceptable in all circumstances and will result in immediate expulsion.

    sure, but do you think a student from taiwan knows what the word "plaigiarism" even means?

    Pi-r8 on
  • adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    As an undergrad, I've had my school's policies on academic integrity explained to me, both in syllabi and in e-mails from the university itself, at least a half-dozen times per semester. Plagiarism was also the first lesson in the introductory course on academic writing.

    Does this sort of thing stop at the graduate level, such that you could expect an international grad student to overlook the policies until he or she runs into problems in class?

    I am a graduate student, and

    1) I had to sit through a lecture on plagiarism before attending any classes.
    2) I had to sign an agreement that I understood that there was a 0 tolerance policy on plagiarism and that if I was caught with any uncited work in a paper I would be immediately expelled.
    3) Every syllabus explicitly restates that plagiarism is unacceptable in all circumstances and will result in immediate expulsion.

    sure, but do you think a student from taiwan knows what the word "plaigiarism" even means?

    If they can't read and write at a level expected by the school then they shouldn't be in the program.

    adytum on
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    That doesn't sound anything like an equal opportunity issue. That sounds like the school was being economically shady and using "cultural difference" as justification. It also sounds like the school got away with it, which actually disproves the point you are responding to (that treating international students differently violates equal opportunity).

    Well, the financial thing is purely my own opinion, because it's not as if the school came out and said "they pay more so LOL". That said, how is that not an equal opportunity issue? Just because the school seems to have got away with something doesn't make it right, or even correct within the scope of their own policies - universities are perfectly capable of breaking their own rules.

    Well... I think your assessment of why they did what they did is likely. I think that is a misapplication of cultural leeway. I guess my point is, I think that there can be a time where such leeway can be appropriate. Your example is extreme and cultural ignorance was an excuse rather than a valid reason.

    Drez on
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  • DeebaserDeebaser on my way to work in a suit and a tie Ahhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    The definition of plagarism is actually written on both my syllabi this semester. I'm pretty sure it's been like that since undergrad.
    Academic Integrity
    All members of the UNIVERSITY community are expected to behave with honesty and integrity. The Graduate Catalog includes the following advisory for students on Academic Integrity:
    “Students must accept the responsibility to be honest and to respect ethical standards in meeting their academic assignments and requirements. Integrity in academic life requires that students demonstrate intellectual and academic achievement independent of all assistance except that authorized by the instructor.
    The use of an outside source in any academic paper, report or submission for academic credit without the appropriate acknowledgement is plagiarism. It is also academically dishonest to submit anything in electronic form as one’s own that is the work, either fully or in part, of someone else. It is unethical to present as one’s own work, the ideas, words or representations of another without the proper indication of the source. Therefore, it is the student’s responsibility to give credit to any quotation, idea or data borrowed from an outside source.
    Students who fail to meet the responsibility for academic integrity subject themselves to sanctions ranging from a reduction in grade or failure in the assignment or course in which the offense occurred to suspension, dismissal or expulsion from the University.” (Page L-54)
    To encourage academic integrity in students’ written submissions, the UNIVERSITY School of Business subscribes to “Turnitin.com,” which describes itself as follows:
    We [Turnitin.com] prevent and detect plagiarism by comparing submitted papers to billions of pages of content located on the Internet and our proprietary databases. The results of our comparisons are compiled, one for each paper submitted, in custom “Originality Reports.” These reports are sent to participating educators, who access the results by logging into their Turnitin account(s). (www.turnitin.com)
    As a condition of participating in the program, all required papers may be subject to submission for textual similarity review to Turnitin.com for the detection of plagiarism.

    Students can get help on how to use resources properly in their research and writing from many sources. This site (http://www.pace.edu/library/pages/instruct/plaig.html) provides links to useful information. The Library also offers an online tutorial on doing research for papers called “APOLLO.” The tutorial is the first item under Student Resources at the link just presented.

    Deebaser on
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited December 2010
    Richy wrote: »
    For plagiarism, I use a one-strike-and-you're-out policy. Sit down the student, talk to her, make sure she knows what she did wrong and understands it. She obviously knows what references are, so maybe she just doesn't understand the line between citing and plagiarizing. Or maybe she's struggling with the language so much that she got desperate and made a stupid mistake. Or maybe, or maybe... Give her a chance to explain and understand what she did wrong. Then find a justifiable punishment - rewrite the report for less marks, or simply zero on that one.

    Forgive, but don't forget. Prepare an official letter describing the event and what you told the student, sign it, and have the student sign it. Have it added to her file. Tell your prof and department chair (informally) about the event. If the student is honest, it won't happen again and that's that. If she is not, next time she plagiarizes she'll get caught, and with a signed letter confirming that she did it before, knew it was wrong and was given a chance to never do it again, she'll be out and will deserve it.

    Maybe I'm just a giant pussy, but I wouldn't be all that harsh with someone in the OP's situation. Honestly, even if it was a bit more malicious what I do would depend on the school's policies. If it's one of the schools where one instance of plagiarism gets you booted, I'd be hard pressed to turn her in, even if it's official policy. In this case, I would bring her in, establish that what she did is a serious no-no, make sure she understands how to do it right, and mention that if she does it again she's almost certainly not going to get someone as nice as you.

    But depending on your school, turning her in could pretty much ruin her academic career and, by extension, her career down the line. If you're overly lenient and it turns out she's an evil serial-plagiarist, the worst that happens is she slacks off in school, graduates while learning nothing, and gets screwed when she enters the work force and realizes she doesn't actually know anything because she's a cheating fucker.

    I dunno, I'm big on second chances.

    ElJeffe on
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  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Hmm, this thread makes me wish the focus on school papers was more on interpretation of information rather than the parroting of information and the focus on verifying information with source redundancy.

    For instance, I wish more reports were "Pick a journal or published literature and analyze it for historical accuracy using common sense or other sources and research." rather than "Pick a topic, look at 18 books and sources, and use them to give me information on that topic." I think 8 page reports would be more interesting to read in the first situation, or, at least, you cut down plagiarism drastically.

    bowen on
    not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    As an undergrad, I've had my school's policies on academic integrity explained to me, both in syllabi and in e-mails from the university itself, at least a half-dozen times per semester. Plagiarism was also the first lesson in the introductory course on academic writing.

    Does this sort of thing stop at the graduate level, such that you could expect an international grad student to overlook the policies until he or she runs into problems in class?

    I am a graduate student, and

    1) I had to sit through a lecture on plagiarism before attending any classes.
    2) I had to sign an agreement that I understood that there was a 0 tolerance policy on plagiarism and that if I was caught with any uncited work in a paper I would be immediately expelled.
    3) Every syllabus explicitly restates that plagiarism is unacceptable in all circumstances and will result in immediate expulsion.

    sure, but do you think a student from taiwan knows what the word "plaigiarism" even means?

    If they can't read and write at a level expected by the school then they shouldn't be in the program.

    It seems to me that it should be the school's responsibility in highlighting these kinds of things, especially to international students. That is what student orientation is for - to prepare the students. I also feel that it is the school's responsibility to research and comprehend whatever cultural barriers there may be for incoming international students so they are able to appropriately orient said students.

    Drez on
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  • adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    But depending on your school, turning her in could pretty much ruin her academic career and, by extension, her career down the line. If you're overly lenient and it turns out she's an evil serial-plagiarist, the worst that happens is she slacks off in school, graduates while learning nothing, and gets screwed when she enters the work force and realizes she doesn't actually know anything because she's a cheating fucker.

    That situation makes the school look bad, as they generated a student that a) probably can't write at an acceptable professional level and b) thinks that plagiarizing work is okay.

    While this might not necessarily matter for a second-tier school, more competitive schools and programs that generate a lot of research and publications live and die by their reputations. This is particularly true of smaller, more specific degree programs where reputation is everything.

    adytum on
  • Robos A Go GoRobos A Go Go Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    As an undergrad, I've had my school's policies on academic integrity explained to me, both in syllabi and in e-mails from the university itself, at least a half-dozen times per semester. Plagiarism was also the first lesson in the introductory course on academic writing.

    Does this sort of thing stop at the graduate level, such that you could expect an international grad student to overlook the policies until he or she runs into problems in class?

    I am a graduate student, and

    1) I had to sit through a lecture on plagiarism before attending any classes.
    2) I had to sign an agreement that I understood that there was a 0 tolerance policy on plagiarism and that if I was caught with any uncited work in a paper I would be immediately expelled.
    3) Every syllabus explicitly restates that plagiarism is unacceptable in all circumstances and will result in immediate expulsion.

    sure, but do you think a student from taiwan knows what the word "plaigiarism" even means?

    If they can't read and write at a level expected by the school then they shouldn't be in the program.

    It seems to me that it should be the school's responsibility in highlighting these kinds of things, especially to international students. That is what student orientation is for - to prepare the students. I also feel that it is the school's responsibility to research and comprehend whatever cultural barriers there may be for incoming international students so they are able to appropriately orient said students.

    At what point can the school say they have successfully oriented its students, and that the inability of certain students (international or otherwise) to adhere to the school's standards are entirely on the students' shoulders?

    And when you say "these kinds of things," are you including all school policies under that umbrella, or just policies regarding academic integrity? If a student hails from a country where actions that would violate policies regarding harassment are considered socially acceptable, would the student also merit lenient treatment for violating said policies?

    Robos A Go Go on
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    As an undergrad, I've had my school's policies on academic integrity explained to me, both in syllabi and in e-mails from the university itself, at least a half-dozen times per semester. Plagiarism was also the first lesson in the introductory course on academic writing.

    Does this sort of thing stop at the graduate level, such that you could expect an international grad student to overlook the policies until he or she runs into problems in class?

    I am a graduate student, and

    1) I had to sit through a lecture on plagiarism before attending any classes.
    2) I had to sign an agreement that I understood that there was a 0 tolerance policy on plagiarism and that if I was caught with any uncited work in a paper I would be immediately expelled.
    3) Every syllabus explicitly restates that plagiarism is unacceptable in all circumstances and will result in immediate expulsion.
    I'm in a grad program and haven't gotten so much as a light reminder from a professor about plagiarism and its results.

    OptimusZed on
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  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    Drez wrote: »
    That doesn't sound anything like an equal opportunity issue. That sounds like the school was being economically shady and using "cultural difference" as justification. It also sounds like the school got away with it, which actually disproves the point you are responding to (that treating international students differently violates equal opportunity).

    Well, the financial thing is purely my own opinion, because it's not as if the school came out and said "they pay more so LOL". That said, how is that not an equal opportunity issue? Just because the school seems to have got away with something doesn't make it right, or even correct within the scope of their own policies - universities are perfectly capable of breaking their own rules.

    Well... I think your assessment of why they did what they did is likely. I think that is a misapplication of cultural leeway. I guess my point is, I think that there can be a time where such leeway can be appropriate. Your example is extreme and cultural ignorance was an excuse rather than a valid reason.

    Yeah, I definitely agree that such leeway is sometimes appropriate. It's heavily context dependent, so I suppose it's good that they do treat cases individually rather than adopting a misguided policy that removes discretion from individual decision makers.

    Edith_Bagot-Dix on


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  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    adytum wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    As an undergrad, I've had my school's policies on academic integrity explained to me, both in syllabi and in e-mails from the university itself, at least a half-dozen times per semester. Plagiarism was also the first lesson in the introductory course on academic writing.

    Does this sort of thing stop at the graduate level, such that you could expect an international grad student to overlook the policies until he or she runs into problems in class?

    I am a graduate student, and

    1) I had to sit through a lecture on plagiarism before attending any classes.
    2) I had to sign an agreement that I understood that there was a 0 tolerance policy on plagiarism and that if I was caught with any uncited work in a paper I would be immediately expelled.
    3) Every syllabus explicitly restates that plagiarism is unacceptable in all circumstances and will result in immediate expulsion.

    sure, but do you think a student from taiwan knows what the word "plaigiarism" even means?

    If they can't read and write at a level expected by the school then they shouldn't be in the program.

    This is an engineering class, though. They could very well be an expert in engineering, without ever learning the word "plagairism" or a lot of other words that would be in a legal contract.

    Pi-r8 on
  • adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Drez wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    adytum wrote: »
    As an undergrad, I've had my school's policies on academic integrity explained to me, both in syllabi and in e-mails from the university itself, at least a half-dozen times per semester. Plagiarism was also the first lesson in the introductory course on academic writing.

    Does this sort of thing stop at the graduate level, such that you could expect an international grad student to overlook the policies until he or she runs into problems in class?

    I am a graduate student, and

    1) I had to sit through a lecture on plagiarism before attending any classes.
    2) I had to sign an agreement that I understood that there was a 0 tolerance policy on plagiarism and that if I was caught with any uncited work in a paper I would be immediately expelled.
    3) Every syllabus explicitly restates that plagiarism is unacceptable in all circumstances and will result in immediate expulsion.

    sure, but do you think a student from taiwan knows what the word "plaigiarism" even means?

    If they can't read and write at a level expected by the school then they shouldn't be in the program.

    It seems to me that it should be the school's responsibility in highlighting these kinds of things, especially to international students. That is what student orientation is for - to prepare the students. I also feel that it is the school's responsibility to research and comprehend whatever cultural barriers there may be for incoming international students so they are able to appropriately orient said students.

    It's the responsibility of the school to vet their incoming students to the best of their ability, but it's also the responsibility of the student to be honest in their dealings with the school.

    Unfortunately the application and acceptance process is about as opaque as a process can be, so it's nigh-impossible to know who is not being honest. Did the student misrepresent themselves with their essay and application? Or did the school let in an unqualified student? Interviews can solve part of the problem, but those are expensive and time-consuming.

    adytum on
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    Hmm, this thread makes me wish the focus on school papers was more on interpretation of information rather than the parroting of information and the focus on verifying information with source redundancy.

    For instance, I wish more reports were "Pick a journal or published literature and analyze it for historical accuracy using common sense or other sources and research." rather than "Pick a topic, look at 18 books and sources, and use them to give me information on that topic." I think 8 page reports would be more interesting to read in the first situation, or, at least, you cut down plagiarism drastically.

    Well, for most of your educational career you need to familiarize yourself with what has been done before trying to reinvent it. And applying your knowledge of assigned reading, in an essay, is one way to do this.

    Otherwise you redo what other people have already done, a lot. If you're a brilliant student, ask for more advanced reading.

    ronya on
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  • Psycho Internet HawkPsycho Internet Hawk Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    bowen wrote: »
    For instance, I wish more reports were "Pick a journal or published literature and analyze it for historical accuracy using common sense or other sources and research." rather than "Pick a topic, look at 18 books and sources, and use them to give me information on that topic." I think 8 page reports would be more interesting to read in the first situation, or, at least, you cut down plagiarism drastically.

    The problem with analysis is that it can often be subjective, and in today's educational world students would generally much rather be able to reliably get an A than occasionally get a B or C because their professor disagreed with their analysis, even if that sort of thing is part of the learning experience.

    Also lots of professors like having their own little intellectual fiefdoms, and like to hear their students repeat what they (the professor) lecture them on verbatim. Anyone who's ever gotten a "this one lecture I said this. Explain what I ment" paper knows this.

    Psycho Internet Hawk on
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  • adytumadytum The Inevitable Rise And FallRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    I'm in a grad program and haven't gotten so much as a light reminder from a professor about plagiarism and its results.

    What is your area of study? My program is in a school that publishes a lot of high-level academic studies and papers, and the program itself involves a lot of writing as the post-degree track will (likely) involve a lot of original research, writing, and publishing.
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    This is an engineering class, though. They could very well be an expert in engineering, without ever learning the word "plagairism" or a lot of other words that would be in a legal contract.

    Professionals need to uphold professional standards. I'm not sure it is the job of the school to teach an international student how to interact with the world on a professional level, or how to not steal. That's a basic level of competency.

    adytum on
  • bowenbowen How you doin'? Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    ronya wrote: »
    bowen wrote: »
    Hmm, this thread makes me wish the focus on school papers was more on interpretation of information rather than the parroting of information and the focus on verifying information with source redundancy.

    For instance, I wish more reports were "Pick a journal or published literature and analyze it for historical accuracy using common sense or other sources and research." rather than "Pick a topic, look at 18 books and sources, and use them to give me information on that topic." I think 8 page reports would be more interesting to read in the first situation, or, at least, you cut down plagiarism drastically.

    Well, for most of your educational career you need to familiarize yourself with what has been done before trying to reinvent it. And applying your knowledge of assigned reading, in an essay, is one way to do this.

    Otherwise you redo what other people have already done, a lot. If you're a brilliant student, ask for more advanced reading.

    Ultimately the problem was the fact that it was just parroting information. If there's one thing that I did like about Regents English here in NYS it's that the regents essays at least made you think critically about the information you were reading rather than just looking up 10 sources and going "oh yeah here's some stuff about my topic... here's some more, this topic is pretty popular, etc etc."

    I imagine this is symptomatic with just History topics (which is the bulk of college essays I've done) as Science is more hands on, I don't care if you know the history behind XYZ just as long as you understand what it is we're talking about and literature has the more critical analyzing of information.

    Philosophy papers though? Holy shit I'd rather write a 20 page report on the sexual conquests of Alexander the Great.

    bowen on
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  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    There's a tendency for bad philosophy courses (IMO) to start with certain thinkers far removed from any modern perspective, such that learning what they thought is more of a course in memorizing trivia than learning new perspectives - it makes sense if students taking the course go on to learn related thinkers, but most students taking a single course in philosophy don't intend to keep studying it.

    So sometimes it can be bad. But it doesn't have to be!

    ronya on
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