As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

Welcome to Oz [AMERICAN PRISON SYSTEM]

245

Posts

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    .6 percent?

    that doesn't seem right.

    edit: was just thinking african descent

    Remember it's African-Americans used correctly. Not a dude from Nigeria is African-American.

    enlightenedbum on
    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    usprisonersmap.jpg

    America's prisons are the worst thing about it.
    http://reidscones.com/prison/

    DarkCrawler on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    That image should be stickied.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • TaxexemptionTaxexemption Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I'm against prisons, they are inhuman.

    We take for granted the immense importance of socialization to the individual. Everyone we talk to influences us, even if only so subtlety. When people are cut off from the system, as a coping mechanism they temporarily change the way they view things. People have to rationalize everything in their life in such a way that they do not wholly disapprove of themselves. The result is that prisons develop their own culture where the actions they took are acceptable.


    After being in prison for long enough this new accepting culture becomes even more powerful to them than the culture they have been part of all of their lives. When they finally get out of prison the world has advanced by leaps and bounds, a lot has happened, a lot of things that they knew nothing about. They find themselves in a new kind of social isolation, and quickly find themselves longing for the prison culture that made so much sense to them.


    Without the occasional contact both physical and social of an individual with others they will eventually go insane. The purpose of our prisons is quite sinister, it is not to protect us from dangerous individuals, it is to stifle the voice of dissenters, those who are different.


    The American prison system is cruel, it makes no real effort to keep its inhabitants cultured and up to date with whats on the outside of the prison walls. Even worse those who have committed a felony are considered "dangerous criminals" and forced on job applications and elsewhere to state that they have committed a felony. Everyone knows what you did, you go through the rest of your life with the burden of others knowing your mistake.

    Taxexemption on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I'm against prisons, they are inhuman.

    Whats your alternative?

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • DeShadowCDeShadowC Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I agree the prison system in the US needs a lot of work, starting with laws in general since some are high unfair and shouldn't be criminal in the first place, but getting rid of prisons to fix the problem would be like cutting off your leg because the bone was broken. Sure you wouldn't have a broken bone, but then you'd be missing your leg.

    DeShadowC on
  • TaxexemptionTaxexemption Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I think its better to kill a man, than to cut him off from society, both for the man, and for society.

    If people need to be temporarily separated from society we need to treat them with dignity and respect, they should have no fear that their rights will be violated, and they should have all the amneties that normal person enjoys outside of prison.


    If we can't do that then we should kill them.

    Taxexemption on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I think its better to kill a man, than to cut him off from society, both for the man, and for society.

    If people need to be temporarily separated from society we need to treat them with dignity and respect, they should have no fear that their rights will be violated, and they should have all the amneties that normal person enjoys outside of prison.


    If we can't do that then we should kill them.

    This is bizarre. Really bizarre.

    So your punitive justice system would exist with two possible punishments. Mandatory vacation time or death.

    Not sure I want to subscribe to your newsletter.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • CabezoneCabezone Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    He supports exile, but Australia is now a real country. I guess maybe the moon?

    Cabezone on
  • ParagonParagon Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I'm against prisons, they are inhuman.

    Whats your alternative?

    Let me tell you about Norway.

    Skip to 5:30 for prison stuff

    Fun fact: he didn't include Norway in Sicko because he knew people would find it too hard to believe.
    Yes, I know, Michael Moore lol. Everything he says is true, though, and I am incredibly proud of my country.

    We just built another prison that is considered the most humane in the world (although the one in the clip is already considered such, so we essentially beat ourselves):

    Halden Prison
    “In our prison system, there’s a focus on human rights and respect...when [prisoners] arrive, many of them are in bad shape. We want to build them up, give them confidence through education and work and have them leave as better people.”

    I support this effort, although I think the money on the artwork could have been much better spent.

    Paragon on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Don't get me wrong, I think the way America handles our entire justice system is stupid and barbaric.

    And a fully support a system for most prisoners that seeks to rehabilitate and readjust rather than punish as all that does is breed worse criminals.

    But prison is supposed to suck and the above poster who pretty much wanted remote house arrest or death was being silly.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • ParagonParagon Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    But prison is supposed to suck and the above poster who pretty much wanted remote house arrest or death was being silly.

    To the bolded: Why? You're assuming prison has to punish a person, so I ask, why does it? This is exactly what's wrong, not just your prison system, but the entire mentality in the US.

    I don't think you watched the video or clicked the link. Halden prison has a better standard of living than most people's houses—even the houses of most people in this thread. It is better than remote house arrest.

    Paragon on
  • TaxexemptionTaxexemption Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Generally I don't believe there is anyone who cannot be rehabilitated. I think that most of societies problems that cause crime could be fixed through better societal organization.


    An interesting thing about crime, is that to the vast majority of criminals it has to be taught. People don't usually wake up one day and say,

    "Hey, I'm gonna steal a car, or knock over a liqour store,"

    Not only does it have to be taught it has to be rationalized. Most criminals have a reason why they believe that the crimes they commit arn't really crimes, or why their victims deserve it. If we actually focused on improving individual quality of life and creating real communities I think we would find the majority of crime to disappear, and that most of the rest would be of the sort that can be dealt with, without a prison system.


    My primary point is, that I think anything is healthier for society than to have a large portion of it isolated from the rest. You have some dollar cost that represents the cost to society of locking a person away, but can you put a dollar cost on what that does to the individual, and to the individuals who lock them away? What harm are we causing ourselves that cannot be written concisely on a balance sheet. How much does a wifes beating, a man being raped, and the rationalization of it cost us? If the price is our humanity, it is a bit too high for my tastes.

    Taxexemption on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    But prison is supposed to suck and the above poster who pretty much wanted remote house arrest or death was being silly.

    To the bolded: Why? You're assuming prison has to punish a person, so I ask, why does it? This is exactly what's wrong, not just your prison system, but the entire mentality in the US.

    I don't think you watched the video or clicked the link. Halden prison has a better standard of living than most people's houses—even most people in this thread's houses. It is better than remote house arrest.

    I can't really do either, I'm at work.

    I'm not advocating ass raping, narrow concrete boxes and possible death by gang fight when I say prison is supposed to suck. But you killed a guy? Enjoy a few years of a spartan existence while we get you straightened out.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • TaxexemptionTaxexemption Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    But prison is supposed to suck and the above poster who pretty much wanted remote house arrest or death was being silly.

    To the bolded: Why? You're assuming prison has to punish a person, so I ask, why does it? This is exactly what's wrong, not just your prison system, but the entire mentality in the US.

    I don't think you watched the video or clicked the link. Halden prison has a better standard of living than most people's houses—even most people in this thread's houses. It is better than remote house arrest.

    I can't really do either, I'm at work.

    I'm not advocating ass raping, narrow concrete boxes and possible death by gang fight when I say prison is supposed to suck. But you killed a guy? Enjoy a few years of a spartan existence while we get you straightened out.

    I don't think you understand murder. Have you seriously contemplated murdering someone before?

    Taxexemption on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    But prison is supposed to suck and the above poster who pretty much wanted remote house arrest or death was being silly.

    To the bolded: Why? You're assuming prison has to punish a person, so I ask, why does it? This is exactly what's wrong, not just your prison system, but the entire mentality in the US.

    I don't think you watched the video or clicked the link. Halden prison has a better standard of living than most people's houses—even most people in this thread's houses. It is better than remote house arrest.

    I can't really do either, I'm at work.

    I'm not advocating ass raping, narrow concrete boxes and possible death by gang fight when I say prison is supposed to suck. But you killed a guy? Enjoy a few years of a spartan existence while we get you straightened out.

    I don't think you understand murder. Have you seriously contemplated murdering someone before?

    Why don't you just say what you find objectionable in my post rather than ask silly questions.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • TaxexemptionTaxexemption Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You murder someone because they are an obstacle, because they make your life difficult. No person, no problem.


    People have a natural fight or flight response to stress. To a great deal of people, all it takes is a minor insult to start that response. All punishing these people is going to do, in any form, is make them want to seek retribution. The human spirit, and the human ego demand respect. Anything less is a reason for murder.


    Consider the fact that duels to the death weren't all that uncommon just two hundred years ago in this country. The ability to murder someone with little provocation, was an important survival trait for humanity through out the age, one that is no longer needed. You can't punish a murderer, all your going to do is give him reason to murder more.

    Taxexemption on
  • y2jake215y2jake215 certified Flat Birther theorist the Last Good Boy onlineRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    You murder someone because they are an obstacle, because they make your life difficult. No person, no problem.


    People have a natural fight or flight response to stress. To a great deal of people, all it takes is a minor insult to start that response. All punishing these people is going to do, in any form, is make them want to seek retribution. The human spirit, and the human ego demand respect. Anything less is a reason for murder.


    Consider the fact that duels to the death weren't all that uncommon just two hundred years ago in this country. The ability to murder someone with little provocation, was an important survival trait for humanity through out the age, one that is no longer needed. You can't punish a murderer, all your going to do is give him reason to murder more.

    if you remove consequences for murdering someone, you're just going to see a lot more murders for increasingly small obstacles

    i'm sure everyone has wished someone else was dead, even briefly, but the reason we (the majority of people in the country) don't run over and choke them out right there? because getting cut in line isn't worth life in jail

    edit: my point is - while the "punishment" might not cure the people who would have murdered anyway, the threat of it certainly dissuades a larger group of people who may have murdered otherwise

    y2jake215 on
    C8Ft8GE.jpg
    maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
  • TaxexemptionTaxexemption Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Consequences are inconsequential. A "criminal" commits a crime under the assumption that they will not get caught. This is why three strikes laws and mandatory minimum sentences have not drastically reduced crime.


    What we should be focused on, is changing the culture.


    There is only one time, and one way, a non medical professional man should touch another man, and that is when his hand is balled up into a fist. America is a culture of violence. When someone insults me there is a cultural expectation that as a man I will kick his ass, but their is a separate societal expectation that I will be locked away for fighting someone if they didn't start it (and insults don't count as starting shit).

    Taxexemption on
  • FuruFuru Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    So if I want to murder someone, do it in Norway.

    Got it.

    Furu on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    No punishment is a pretty shitty deterrent for crime. America is a fantastic example of this.

    But that doesn't mean that if you kill someone some sort of punishment is inappropriate.

    There is a healthy medium between club med for murderers and the crime factory the criminal justice system is in America.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • ParagonParagon Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Furu wrote: »
    So if I want to murder someone, do it in Norway.

    Got it.

    We have the lowest murder rate in the entire world. Our system works, and statistics prove it.

    Paragon on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    Furu wrote: »
    So if I want to murder someone, do it in Norway.

    Got it.

    We have the lowest murder rate in the entire world. Our system works, and statistics prove it.

    Your system works for your culture, economy, and society.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • TaxexemptionTaxexemption Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    Furu wrote: »
    So if I want to murder someone, do it in Norway.

    Got it.

    We have the lowest murder rate in the entire world. Our system works, and statistics prove it.

    Your system works for your culture, economy, and society.

    And America's system doesn't work for its culture, economy, and society. What exactly are you trying to say?


    We need to alter our culture, society, and economy to be more like Norway?

    Taxexemption on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    Furu wrote: »
    So if I want to murder someone, do it in Norway.

    Got it.

    We have the lowest murder rate in the entire world. Our system works, and statistics prove it.

    Your system works for your culture, economy, and society.

    And America's system doesn't work for its culture, economy, and society. What exactly are you trying to say?


    We need to alter our culture, society, and economy to be more like Norway?

    Would be nice yes. But at the moment a system like Norway's would simply not work here.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • ParagonParagon Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    Furu wrote: »
    So if I want to murder someone, do it in Norway.

    Got it.

    We have the lowest murder rate in the entire world. Our system works, and statistics prove it.

    Your system works for your culture, economy, and society.

    Yes, it does. And what tax up there said is true: your culture needs to change. This eye for an eye bullshit, as well as many other barbaric traditions, needs to go. You're perpetuating it in this very thread, Sammich.

    Your earlier comment can basically be paraphrased as such:
    I think we should focus on rehabilitating people and making sure they can reintegrate into society. Oh, and we should also poke out their eye.

    Paragon on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    Paragon wrote: »
    Furu wrote: »
    So if I want to murder someone, do it in Norway.

    Got it.

    We have the lowest murder rate in the entire world. Our system works, and statistics prove it.

    Your system works for your culture, economy, and society.

    Yes, it does. And what tax up there said is true: your culture needs to change. This eye for an eye bullshit, as well as many other barbaric traditions, needs to go. You're perpetuating it in this very thread, Sammich.

    Your earlier comment can basically be paraphrased as such:
    I think we should focus on rehabilitating people and making sure they can reintegrate into society. Oh, and we should also poke out their eye.

    Oh that is such fucking bull shit and you know it.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    Furu wrote: »
    So if I want to murder someone, do it in Norway.

    Got it.

    We have the lowest murder rate in the entire world. Our system works, and statistics prove it.

    Your system works for your culture, economy, and society.

    This is the crux of the issue. Before talking about the prison, the video explained how Norway is basically a Utopia. They give you a year of paid maternity leave. They will buy you a car if you need it. They will pay for a two week vacation. It's like a dream world. (according to what Moore shows us of course)

    Why even commit crimes in that environment? Most of the motivation for crime doesn't exist.

    The question is, did the prison system create the culture, economy and society of Norway? Or does the culture, economy, and society allow a prison system like Norway's to work (aka, it wouldn't work anywhere unlike Norway)?

    Its kinda chicken and egg, but I would venture to say the latter is the reality.

    ObiFett on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    Furu wrote: »
    So if I want to murder someone, do it in Norway.

    Got it.

    We have the lowest murder rate in the entire world. Our system works, and statistics prove it.

    Your system works for your culture, economy, and society.

    And America's system doesn't work for its culture, economy, and society. What exactly are you trying to say?


    We need to alter our culture, society, and economy to be more like Norway?

    Would be nice yes. But at the moment a system like Norway's would simply not work here.

    This is the worst argument

    System X is demonstrably better then System Y but X wouldn't work here, just cuz lol, nuff said

    Robman on
  • ParagonParagon Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    But prison is supposed to suck...enjoy a few years of a spartan existence while we get you straightened out.

    Rehabilitation and punishment don't really go together very well, this is what I have been trying to tell you with my links.

    I asked you earlier, and I ask you again: why should prison be such a bad experience? When you are imprisoned in the US, you are forced into a hellhole, removed from society, removed from your family.

    In Norway, what you lose is your freedom because you did something bad and cannot be trusted out in society. In the meantime, we make sure that you don't lose your humanity in the process of rehabilitation by making prison simulate society outside the prison walls. You earn money in prison, we teach you valuable skills, etc.

    The main thing is, the calculated evil bastard that you want to discourage from murdering other people is not that common and shouldn't be a big part of our equation; the person we need to target with our help is the gang member or drug addict who doesn't know any other life but crime.

    Paragon on
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    But changing the US's prison system is not going to change the economy, culture or society. Changing the latter is what allows the country to change the former. And changing the former before changing the latter would be disastrous in the US's case.

    ObiFett on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Robman wrote: »
    Paragon wrote: »
    Furu wrote: »
    So if I want to murder someone, do it in Norway.

    Got it.

    We have the lowest murder rate in the entire world. Our system works, and statistics prove it.

    Your system works for your culture, economy, and society.

    And America's system doesn't work for its culture, economy, and society. What exactly are you trying to say?


    We need to alter our culture, society, and economy to be more like Norway?

    Would be nice yes. But at the moment a system like Norway's would simply not work here.

    This is the worst argument

    System X is demonstrably better then System Y but X wouldn't work here, just cuz lol, nuff said

    Or perhaps what Im saying is System X is better but we need to make other changes before its viable here.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • DarkCrawlerDarkCrawler Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    ObiFett wrote: »

    Why even commit crimes in that environment? Most of the motivation for crime doesn't exist.

    The question is, did the prison system create the culture, economy and society of Norway? Or does the culture, economy, and society allow a prison system like Norway's to work (aka, it wouldn't work anywhere unlike Norway)?

    Its kinda chicken and egg, but I would venture to say the latter is the reality.

    Finland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Iceland...Japan, Brunei, Austria...Germany, Luxembourg, Netherlands, Bahrain, Greece...Israel, Malta, Slovenia, Senegal, Ireland, Tunisia, Portugal, Czech Republic, Canada, Hungary...all have murder rates less then United States and that's only I think one third of the countries that can claim that. None have anywhere near as shitty as the prison system of the United States, which is, pound for pound, the shittiest one in the world.

    And that's a pretty big spread of cultures, economies and societies there.

    I think saying that it wouldn't work in United States speaks of defeatism.

    DarkCrawler on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    But prison is supposed to suck...enjoy a few years of a spartan existence while we get you straightened out.

    Rehabilitation and punishment don't really go together very well, this is what I have been trying to tell you with my links.

    I asked you earlier, and I ask you again: why should prison be such a bad experience? When you are imprisoned in the US, you are forced into a hellhole, removed from society, removed from your family.

    In Norway, what you lose is your freedom because you did something bad and cannot be trusted out in society. In the meantime, we make sure that you don't lose your humanity in the process of rehabilitation by making prison simulate society outside the prison walls. You earn money in prison, we teach you valuable skills, etc.

    The main thing is, the calculated evil bastard that you want to discourage from murdering other people is not that common and shouldn't be a big part of our equation; the person we need to target with our help is the gang member or drug addict who doesn't know any other life but crime.

    I believe what I said was a spartan existence. If you kill a guy a few years of simple food, simple days, week entertainment, coupled with job training, counseling and education seems the way to go.

    Styrofoam Sammich on
    wq09t4opzrlc.jpg
  • TaberTaber Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I don't know, it doesn't seem like American prisons being hell holes really deters much crime.

    edit: wow, a lot of posts sprung up while I was typing. That was supposed to be a response to ObiFett's " But the changing the prison system is not going to change the economy, culture or society. Changing the latter allows the change of the former. And changing the former before changing the latter would be disastrous in the US's case."

    Taber on
  • y2jake215y2jake215 certified Flat Birther theorist the Last Good Boy onlineRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Consequences are inconsequential. A "criminal" commits a crime under the assumption that they will not get caught. This is why three strikes laws and mandatory minimum sentences have not drastically reduced crime.


    What we should be focused on, is changing the culture.


    There is only one time, and one way, a non medical professional man should touch another man, and that is when his hand is balled up into a fist. America is a culture of violence. When someone insults me there is a cultural expectation that as a man I will kick his ass, but their is a separate societal expectation that I will be locked away for fighting someone if they didn't start it (and insults don't count as starting shit).

    aren't consequences, by definition, uh... consequential?
    i get what you're saying, but i just don't agree with some parts. there don't seem to be many consequences for murder in mexico at the moment. that isn't stopping people from murdering.. in fact there seem to be quite a few murders. because, well, there's no reason not to murder the people trying to stop the cartels.

    y2jake215 on
    C8Ft8GE.jpg
    maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
  • ParagonParagon Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    ObiFett wrote: »
    But changing the US's prison system is not going to change the economy, culture or society. Changing the latter is what allows the country to change the former. And changing the former before changing the latter would be disastrous in the US's case.

    I don't think the actual changes required are as difficult as people in this thread are making them out to be. Politically, however...

    In any case, you certainly can change culture by making sure that in prison the inmates learn how to cope with life outside the walls. Right now, the US prison system completely breaks down and ruins a person, which is completely the opposite of what should happen.

    I'm definitely not saying the US should run, right now, and change the prison system to match that of Norway's; that wouldn't work. It can take steps, however, to try and make sure no more rapes happen (people can stop fucking condoning the horrendous practice by saying "if you did the crime you should pay the fine lol!"), teach the inmates and follow up on them, set up a more cooperative environment...etc. There are many things that can be done.

    Paragon on
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Taber wrote: »
    I don't know, it doesn't seem like American prisons being hell holes really deters much crime.

    Agreed. But its a big difference to have prison reform change our current hell holes to just holes (keeping some deterrent) and changing our current hell holes to free house arrest (complete with free house).

    Duders would be committing crimes in the US just to go to prisons like the ones in Norway.

    ObiFett on
  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    edited December 2010
    Paragon wrote: »
    I'm definitely not saying the US should run, right now, and change the prison system to match that of Norway's; that wouldn't work. It can take steps, however, to try and make sure no more rapes happen (people can stop fucking condoning the horrendous practice by saying "if you did the crime you should pay the fine lol!"), teach the inmates and follow up on them, set up a more cooperative environment...etc. There are many things that can be done.

    Truth.

    I don't think anyone would argue against this, though. This seems to just be basic common sense. The hard part is realistically coming up with a way that actually makes these changes in a Giant Stubborn Corrupt Country.

    ObiFett on
  • His CorkinessHis Corkiness Registered User regular
    edited December 2010
    I think saying that it wouldn't work in United States speaks of defeatism.
    It's mentioned every time it's shown that there's a better way to do something than the way it is done in the US. It's really fucking annoying.

    His Corkiness on
Sign In or Register to comment.