Yeah, even though I feel disappointed I am still going to run my 2 (soon 3) DnD games for the forseeable future. It's not like I've run out of ideas for campaigns or anything. Not to mention all the things I want to do with Gamma World...
That is the thing to keep in mind for the gamers, if not for WotC: We do already have a damned lot of great stuff we can use for the rest of our lives. We're just not getting any NEW stuff very often anymore. I've been using the dearth of new material as an excuse to get back into painting miniatures.
Absolutely. Yet that also goes for 3E, and it's an option I exercise vigorously for that edition (I play more 3E than 4E games). Something to keep in mind for WotC should they elect to run 4E into the ground and do a new-edition reboot: 3E only lost players to a no longer supported system (AD&D), 4E lost players to a still-supported system as well (Pathfinder) and 5E will undoubtedly lose players to the shortest-running edition so far (4E, if it's terminated anywhere in the next 4 years) on top of all that. All those alternative options chipping away at your customer base starts to add up eventually.
You are actually way, way off on this here. In terms of number of player (and sales) it was 3.5 that almost killed D&D. 2 years ago sales were in the crapper thanks to the proliferation of horrible 3rd party stuff from the OGL and less than great work on the part of WOTC. Not only was D&D just about dead but RPGs in general (in favor of the flavor of the month: those non-random CCGs like Warhammer Invasion)
Between 4th ed. and Warhammer Fantasy the RPG market in general rebounded very successfully and actually brought in new players (while Pathfinder sells well, it does so almost exclusively among former 3rd ed players and in markets with already established player bases).
Now things might have turned recently but as of late last year 4th ed was doing better than 3rd ever did in its product cycle (with the exception of the inital release of the 3.0 players handbook at that reduced price).
RiemannLives on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Yeah, even though I feel disappointed I am still going to run my 2 (soon 3) DnD games for the forseeable future. It's not like I've run out of ideas for campaigns or anything. Not to mention all the things I want to do with Gamma World...
That is the thing to keep in mind for the gamers, if not for WotC: We do already have a damned lot of great stuff we can use for the rest of our lives. We're just not getting any NEW stuff very often anymore. I've been using the dearth of new material as an excuse to get back into painting miniatures.
Absolutely. Yet that also goes for 3E, and it's an option I exercise vigorously for that edition (I play more 3E than 4E games). Something to keep in mind for WotC should they elect to run 4E into the ground and do a new-edition reboot: 3E only lost players to a no longer supported system (AD&D), 4E lost players to a still-supported system as well (Pathfinder) and 5E will undoubtedly lose players to the shortest-running edition so far (4E, if it's terminated anywhere in the next 4 years) on top of all that. All those alternative options chipping away at your customer base starts to add up eventually.
You are actually way, way off on this here. In terms of number of player (and sales) it was 3.5 that almost killed D&D. 2 years ago sales were in the crapper thanks to the proliferation of horrible 3rd party stuff from the OGL and less than great work on the part of WOTC. Not only was D&D just about dead but RPGs in general (in favor of the flavor of the month: those non-random CCGs like Warhammer Invasion)
Between 4th ed. and Warhammer Fantasy the RPG market in general rebounded very successfully and actually brought in new players (while Pathfinder sells well, it does so almost exclusively among former 3rd ed players and in markets with already established player bases).
Now things might have turned recently but as of late last year 4th ed was doing better than 3rd ever did in its product cycle (with the exception of the inital release of the 3.0 players handbook at that reduced price).
Two years ago we were 8 years into 3E and, realistically guesstimated, at least 2 years in full prep for 4E. Less than great work from WotC? Half the campaign for the 4E launch was WotC taking a giant crap on 3E, so I I doubt they were very motivated to produce quality material for that edition at that point. Let's face it, WotC had ran out of decent earners to produce for 3E by 2005 or so and were wringing out what they still could while getting ready for a reboot and a new, more profitable modular business model. Could just be me, but it looks like they're close to that point already for 4E.
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay? Can't hold a candle to the recent Warhammer 40K lines. Not to mention its release was announced as recent as August 2009. By then there was really not that much of a rebound left to make.
If you're saying D&D/RPGs were next to dead in one sentence, then that Pathfinder sells well but only has established players in the next, you're not exactly being consistent. There was and still is a loyal fanbase for the 3E ruleset, that's all I can conclude.
As for 4E doing better than 3E ever did, I have to ask what and how you're comparing. I certainly have never seen any dependable figures to prove that. Besides, having a larger target demographic by the start of 4E is as reasonable an argument to say 3E helped pave the way for 4E as any.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
edited January 2011
I sent my long post about the state of the game to Wizards customer service and got this:
We really appreciate you taking the time to provide this extremely comprehensive feedback about our 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons product line.
We're very sorry that you are disappointed with the direction that Dungeons & Dragons has gone.
We place great value in the feedback, ideas, and suggestions of our customers. I assure you that Game Support meets with teams around the company on a regular basis, and we make it a priority that your voice is heard. While we cannot guarantee a direct response, we can promise that your thoughts and concerns are being passed along to the right people.
Again, we're very sorry for any disappointment or frustration these changes may have caused.
Which is all I can really ask for in the end. Just have to see how the next few months are panning out.
So we've lost a couple of Worldship's players. A shame, but it happens. Fortunately, lots of people wanted in, and I imagine there are a few who still do, and a few more who didn't jump in the initial wave but are looking for a game now. So we're looking for a Leader and an anything else but let's be honest and admit it's probably gonna be a second striker.
Details and a summary of the Story So Far are in the OP of the OOC thread.
I liked Manual of the Planes. It's a fun read and has some good ideas for extraplanar stuff. The mechanics things in it are nifty for adventures that are specifically planar or cosmic oriented.
Chromatic Dragons was also a fun read, and it was nice to have more kinds of Dragons to go with your Dungeons. Probably they've all been errata'd by now or something... but I still like the book.
Apparently they're trying to make-up for the lack of articles in Dragon and Dungeon (and the seemingly random nature in which they are released) by introducing weekly columns that will always be released on certain dates:
We feel we can do a better job communicating more regularly and consistently. To this end, we’re planning to bring a series of regular, weekly columns to the site. They’ll be free and in addition to the content we’re currently providing. Our goal with these columns is to create an ongoing dialogue with D&D fans, presenting thoughts and ideas that we feel are touchstones for segments of the community, and helping spark discussion on topics of interest to you.
What columns are we adding? Here they are:
Legends & Lore: Each week, RPG Group Manager Mike Mearls will examine certain elements behind the D&D’s past editions and influences, and how they inform the game today. Think of this one as game theory.
The Dungeon Master Experience: D&D Senior Producer Chris Perkins will use his ongoing home campaign as a tool to give Dungeon Masters awesome ideas and hooks for their home campaigns. Think of this one as game practice.
Design & Development: Not a new column, but it will increase in frequency from monthly to weekly. We’ll be looking around the entire R&D department to find contributors best suited to handle each topic.
Rule-of-Three: Our community team will regularly round up three questions from you, the player community (the details of how will announced shortly). Again, we’ll convene all of R&D to bring you answers to your questions—every week.
Finally, we have one column that remains to be determined. We’d like to experiment with a number of ideas, see what works and what doesn’t, and hear from you about what else you’d like to see fill this spot.
My first thought is "How long until they ditch the weekly, organized release of these columns?".
I'll admit that I'm excited by Mike Mearls' column, and Chris Perkins' column might be interesting as well, but do free columns really make-up for a lack of content (content that must be paid for)?
Also, maybe "Design & Development" will shed some light on what is currently being designed and developed.
I just...
I just...
*Sigh*
I really appreciate the initiative here, but if (and I think it's a fair guess at this point) the D&D line is not performing well / not performing like WotC wants (as I said, this might just have to do with unrealistic expectations when comparing D&D to their other game lines)... why spend resources releasing free articles? There's already a ton of free content & articles & podcasts - so what would make this one special? Moreover, what would be the incentive to maintain this schedule when so many others have fallen apart?
Release paid-for content that players want! They will buy it, Wizards, they really will; but you have to get created and make it available, and it has to be stuff they actually want.
Alright, it is now officially time to cancel my DDI sub and attempt to get the CBLoader shit all working. That will be my project this weekend. Dumb question of the day is will there *ever* be a way to get the "fully updated" offline CB working on my PC, .rar or .zip it somehow and let my players pull it off an ftp and have it fully operational out of the box? In other words, two of my players are even more computarded than I am and I want to make getting a functional CB as easy as possible.
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AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Decent book and in fact you can easily run a planar campaign using just this, without having either of the plane above/plane below. Plane Above and Plane Below add some more specific things, but you don't really need either of them with a really pressing need to run a game in the astral sea/elemental chaos. Both of those books are decent.
-Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons
-Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons
Both are excellent fluff wise and ideas wise for making campaigns around dragons. They both have a massive flaws: Dragon design has eclipsed them. In fact it is best to use the base powers of these dragons, then upgrade them to MM3 damage (they are behind here) and add in the new powers common to all dragons (from the looks of things).
All dragons have an action (an attack usually) at initiative +10. If they can't take it due to being dominated/stunned, they end the effect instead. The attack depends on the kind of dragon, greens have a flyby attack + melee, whites have a rampage (attack each creature whose square they move into) and such forth.
All dragons have action recovery, which automatically ends the daze, dominate and stun conditions at the end of their turn.
Dragons no longer have the close burst stun frightful presence. I don't regret the loss of this power very much at all to be honest. They tend to be more directly offensive.
I am currently working on converting all Draconomicon and Draconomicon II dragons to the new MV dragon format at the moment. Adamantine Dragons for example have an expanded crit range and attack reflex mostly with their attacks. When bloodied they gain an even further crit range (15-20! at epic), becoming extremely dangerous :shock: This is largely based on chromatic equivalents, who I will probably post up in the thread first. I've generally tried to implement powers that fit with the new design ethos. For example the Brown Dragon no longer grinds down PCs with blindness - instead having a power more similar to the Black Dragons gloomshroud.
Edit: I still recommend both books anyway despite this. The quick and nasty conversion is to up damage, add action recovery, add a melee basic attack or charge at initiative +10 and remove frightful presence.
Woohoo! Eberron Campaign Guide and Player's Guide at my FLGS for $19 and $14 used, respectively. I'd been looking for prices like these on these books for over a year now; it's a good feeling to finally have them on my shelf.
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BhowSunny day, sweeping the clouds away.On my way to where the air is sweet.Registered Userregular
Alright, it is now officially time to cancel my DDI sub and attempt to get the CBLoader shit all working. That will be my project this weekend. Dumb question of the day is will there *ever* be a way to get the "fully updated" offline CB working on my PC, .rar or .zip it somehow and let my players pull it off an ftp and have it fully operational out of the box? In other words, two of my players are even more computarded than I am and I want to make getting a functional CB as easy as possible.
I don't think there is a way for you to export your install for them to use, at least not a simple way as you described (.zip it all and give them the file). If they already have the offline CB installed and updated its incredibly easy to use CBLoader. I had it up and running in less then an hour. If they don't have it I don't think there is a way of acquiring it that we can talk about here and not get an infraction (or worse).
So, maybe I am an idiot, but why can't we talk about the offline CB? At this point isn't it just abandonware?
Because there's no such thing as "abandonware" in law and modifying it is still in breach of the contract you signed with Wizards of the Coast when you first installed it.
But it's not like we're not allowed to talk about the fact that there is a project out there to enable end-users to add their own data to the off-line CB or that a group of enterprising uses of that software have created data files that add published WotC content via that method in terms of news and comment; we just can't really discuss where to go to get it. Which in these days of Google probably means no naming it either really...
Is modding of the software against WotC's contract? I don't remember.
Probably. Those EULA thingies are usually pretty comprehensive. But last time I read one it mentioned reverse engineering/decompiling specifically but not running a completely different executable that forces/tricks it into using a different set of data. But I guess that a decent lawyer would be able to show that those are equivalent?
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I'm beginnging to think it's just rogues
You are actually way, way off on this here. In terms of number of player (and sales) it was 3.5 that almost killed D&D. 2 years ago sales were in the crapper thanks to the proliferation of horrible 3rd party stuff from the OGL and less than great work on the part of WOTC. Not only was D&D just about dead but RPGs in general (in favor of the flavor of the month: those non-random CCGs like Warhammer Invasion)
Between 4th ed. and Warhammer Fantasy the RPG market in general rebounded very successfully and actually brought in new players (while Pathfinder sells well, it does so almost exclusively among former 3rd ed players and in markets with already established player bases).
Now things might have turned recently but as of late last year 4th ed was doing better than 3rd ever did in its product cycle (with the exception of the inital release of the 3.0 players handbook at that reduced price).
I haven't had a chance to climb onto roofs and shoot down bolts of death yet, but I will.
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay? Can't hold a candle to the recent Warhammer 40K lines. Not to mention its release was announced as recent as August 2009. By then there was really not that much of a rebound left to make.
If you're saying D&D/RPGs were next to dead in one sentence, then that Pathfinder sells well but only has established players in the next, you're not exactly being consistent. There was and still is a loyal fanbase for the 3E ruleset, that's all I can conclude.
As for 4E doing better than 3E ever did, I have to ask what and how you're comparing. I certainly have never seen any dependable figures to prove that. Besides, having a larger target demographic by the start of 4E is as reasonable an argument to say 3E helped pave the way for 4E as any.
Which is all I can really ask for in the end. Just have to see how the next few months are panning out.
Details and a summary of the Story So Far are in the OP of the OOC thread.
seriously though a goliath who sneaks up on people in alleys
smashes them on the head with a massive club
and rattles/intimidates his enemies by virtue of being a giant dude who breaks your skull
fucking awesome
-Manual of the Planes
-The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea
-The Plane Below: Secrets of the Elemental Chaos
-Draconomicon: Chromatic Dragons
-Draconomicon 2: Metallic Dragons
Any good?
Chromatic Dragons was also a fun read, and it was nice to have more kinds of Dragons to go with your Dungeons. Probably they've all been errata'd by now or something... but I still like the book.
I just...
I just...
*Sigh*
I really appreciate the initiative here, but if (and I think it's a fair guess at this point) the D&D line is not performing well / not performing like WotC wants (as I said, this might just have to do with unrealistic expectations when comparing D&D to their other game lines)... why spend resources releasing free articles? There's already a ton of free content & articles & podcasts - so what would make this one special? Moreover, what would be the incentive to maintain this schedule when so many others have fallen apart?
Release paid-for content that players want! They will buy it, Wizards, they really will; but you have to get created and make it available, and it has to be stuff they actually want.
Decent book and in fact you can easily run a planar campaign using just this, without having either of the plane above/plane below. Plane Above and Plane Below add some more specific things, but you don't really need either of them with a really pressing need to run a game in the astral sea/elemental chaos. Both of those books are decent.
Both are excellent fluff wise and ideas wise for making campaigns around dragons. They both have a massive flaws: Dragon design has eclipsed them. In fact it is best to use the base powers of these dragons, then upgrade them to MM3 damage (they are behind here) and add in the new powers common to all dragons (from the looks of things).
All dragons have an action (an attack usually) at initiative +10. If they can't take it due to being dominated/stunned, they end the effect instead. The attack depends on the kind of dragon, greens have a flyby attack + melee, whites have a rampage (attack each creature whose square they move into) and such forth.
All dragons have action recovery, which automatically ends the daze, dominate and stun conditions at the end of their turn.
Dragons no longer have the close burst stun frightful presence. I don't regret the loss of this power very much at all to be honest. They tend to be more directly offensive.
I am currently working on converting all Draconomicon and Draconomicon II dragons to the new MV dragon format at the moment. Adamantine Dragons for example have an expanded crit range and attack reflex mostly with their attacks. When bloodied they gain an even further crit range (15-20! at epic), becoming extremely dangerous :shock: This is largely based on chromatic equivalents, who I will probably post up in the thread first. I've generally tried to implement powers that fit with the new design ethos. For example the Brown Dragon no longer grinds down PCs with blindness - instead having a power more similar to the Black Dragons gloomshroud.
Edit: I still recommend both books anyway despite this. The quick and nasty conversion is to up damage, add action recovery, add a melee basic attack or charge at initiative +10 and remove frightful presence.
Very cool--would you like submissions via PM or at the end of the OOC thread? Do you have a deadline?
E: Not cool that you've lost players, but, you know... a good opportunity!
E2: NVM, questions answered in OOC.
I don't think there is a way for you to export your install for them to use, at least not a simple way as you described (.zip it all and give them the file). If they already have the offline CB installed and updated its incredibly easy to use CBLoader. I had it up and running in less then an hour. If they don't have it I don't think there is a way of acquiring it that we can talk about here and not get an infraction (or worse).
Because I have no idea how else you would get them those files, since it's not supported anymore.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
not gonna discuss them here
Luckily for me, I'd kept mine updated.
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
Haha, I knew what you meant. Head to the OOC thread, give the OP another read, get a submission in by next Friday.
so full of awesome
They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
You're really missing a lot of what makes Dark Sun if you don't have it.
:^:
But it's not like we're not allowed to talk about the fact that there is a project out there to enable end-users to add their own data to the off-line CB or that a group of enterprising uses of that software have created data files that add published WotC content via that method in terms of news and comment; we just can't really discuss where to go to get it. Which in these days of Google probably means no naming it either really...
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
I suppose I just don't know enough about law to understand why it is so illogical.
Problem with labeling the CB abandonware is:
(a) it's been only months, not decades like what most consider abandonware
(b) WotC has a rabid legal team
I feel I'd have more luck labeling Office 2007 abandonware than the CB. :P
They are under no obligation to sell a product to you.
That most definitely does not mean they lose any rights to their properties.
people were asking specifically how to pirate it. we've been talking about how to mod it for a few months.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Copyright infringement aka piracy is an upheld and enforceable law, in the courts and on these forums.
Modification of software on your computer and binding of user agreements? Not so much.