you could stick Sam Spade into Dracula and it would also not work very well, because Sam Spade does not belong in an 1800s Gothic horror story.
characters don't exist in a vacuum. they aren't independent entities.
Hm. I disagree. I mean, it is certainly a failure of the writer, putting someone who doesn't belong in the story. And it would detract from the story. But I still think it's fair to hate the character for that - without them, the story would be better. It's similar to if there was an act in Hamlet that was really awful for whatever reason and distracted from the story without adding anything. I think you'd be totally justified to hate act 2.5 of Hamlet while still liking the story.
Yeah, but again, that horrible act of Hamlet would be Shakespeare's fault. It wouldn't be the fault of the characters in that act. They don't have agency, they didn't write themselves into the play.
This touches on the other reason I don't care for this whole "I hate X character" thing that goes on in any nerd discussion of media: if we let the audience populate a work with only the characters that tickle their particular fancies, we would end up with the worst stories ever.
To use your Hamlet example, what if I decided that I really hate that fat asshole Polonius? He sure goes out like a punk. Let's swap him out for someone cooler.
iterate a few more times and suddenly Hamlet is a play about fifteen vampire dudes in black robes having swordfights with each other and gang-banging the cast of Harry Potter.
I think I'm using "hate" in a broader sense than you. Of course it's not the fault of the characters, but I don't feel that that protects them from criticism. I hate the controls in a lot of games, but that's an abstract concept with no agency. I just feel that if a character is out of place, you can hate that, knowing that it was Shakespeare's fault for writing vampires into Hamlet. He made a stupid decision, and the effects of that can be disliked for poisoning an otherwise ok work.
That said I think a huge problem is cross-audience stuff. Like you said, deciding Polonius sucks and instead we should have him be like Spike from Buffy. And then let's change Ophelia out for Druscilla, and Hamlet can be Edward from Twilight why not.
But that's more of a problem with having a varied audience. Switching out Polonius would likely cause a bunch of people to realize how much better he was before he was Spike. You can't please everyone, and I think it's important to realize that some characters could be taken out or altered and cause a drastic improvement in the story while recognizing that, on the whole, people who hate X character probably don't really know what they're talking about.
Ugh, fuck you USB drive. I just realized I lost all of my Anki cards and have to retype them all. I really need to start using that sync feature from now on :x
Some friends-of-friends are over planning a trip to Greece, and they mentioned wanting to go to Rhodes.
I said, "what, to see the big statue?" and posed like the Colossus of Rhodes is often shown. They all just looked at me like I was crazy, because they had no idea what I was talking about.
Madeline Pryor basically set up a huge part of the X-Men mythos.
yeah it's just that Madelyne/Jean/Rachel is so bug-fuck convoluted it is impossible to untangle
Yeah, totally.
The 80s also had the Morlocks, Storm's dark period, and God Loves Man Kills. It was also a pretty iconic period, when you had the core team with most of the major characters together in a single book. I probably shouldn't shit on the X-Men's 80s run too much.
Feral on
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I kind of have a soft spot for Chris Claremont's drug fueled insanity plots
it wasn't always good but damned if the guy wasn't being creative
comics are an amazing laboratory for the study of creativity under pressure
like, Claremont wrote X-Men for nearly twenty years. Sometimes it was great and sometimes it was terrible. And when you read those old issues in big chunks and with an awareness of the context of what was going on with the comics business and with the creators at the time, you can see how the quality was all to do with the kind of collaborators he had, how much of a free hand the editors gave him, and where his interests were at the time.
And because these were coming out monthly, there were no do-overs, no takebacks or anything like that. Instead of this impenetrable, flawless work being handed to you on a platter, you get to see all the guts and gears inside.
Just to verify I haven't skipped any books in the Discworld series
I recall reading a little bit of one where Vimes is remembering a fallen friend, and then ends up becoming that person. I didn't finish it (library copy; life intervened).
Anyone know the title?
Night Watch. Probably my favorite Discworld book but it requires having read most of the previous ones to get the most out of it.
Actually, using a shooting range as basically non-random dice in a tabletop RPG would be interesting. Damage to enemies is based on which part of the body you shoot. Skill checks are done by shooting at particular areas on a target.
That would be awesome, but you'd need to handicap it.
Like, my character is a wizard who picks up a bow to shoot some guy in the face. I'm a pretty good shot in real life (at least ok) so I should be back like a hundred yards.
Whereas my friend who is missing thumbs is playing the Elven ranger, trained since birth to be a warrior, so he gets to take the shot from five feet away.
It could be modified a bit though, and would be a whole lot of fun. It'd be awesome to feel that that headshot to the mage was successful because you made that shot.
Just to verify I haven't skipped any books in the Discworld series
I recall reading a little bit of one where Vimes is remembering a fallen friend, and then ends up becoming that person. I didn't finish it (library copy; life intervened).
Anyone know the title?
Night Watch. Probably my favorite Discworld book but it requires having read most of the previous ones to get the most out of it.
Excellent. I haven't gotten ahead of myself, then. I've just finished Feet of Clay, and am on Jingo now.
Bones is such a wonderful character. He is part of the trinity of power.
He is really un-bones like at the begining though. Like he doesn't have the technology-hating grumpy old man thing going on. He just plays it like a soap opera doctor at first.
Actually, using a shooting range as basically non-random dice in a tabletop RPG would be interesting. Damage to enemies is based on which part of the body you shoot. Skill checks are done by shooting at particular areas on a target.
That would be awesome, but you'd need to handicap it.
Like, my character is a wizard who picks up a bow to shoot some guy in the face. I'm a pretty good shot in real life (at least ok) so I should be back like a hundred yards.
Whereas my friend who is missing thumbs is playing the Elven ranger, trained since birth to be a warrior, so he gets to take the shot from five feet away.
It could be modified a bit though, and would be a whole lot of fun. It'd be awesome to feel that that headshot to the mage was successful because you made that shot.
Some friends-of-friends are over planning a trip to Greece, and they mentioned wanting to go to Rhodes.
I said, "what, to see the big statue?" and posed like the Colossus of Rhodes is often shown. They all just looked at me like I was crazy, because they had no idea what I was talking about.
And one of them is Greek!
Well, I mean, it did fall into the sea a few centuries back. Still...
Some of them absolutely are. Which isn't to suggest there is any special importance to superheroes, it's just that the genre happens to be vast and has featured some of the best artists in the medium.
Some friends-of-friends are over planning a trip to Greece, and they mentioned wanting to go to Rhodes.
I said, "what, to see the big statue?" and posed like the Colossus of Rhodes is often shown. They all just looked at me like I was crazy, because they had no idea what I was talking about.
And one of them is Greek!
Well, I mean, it did fall into the sea a few centuries back. Still...
And it probably didn't look like how it is usually shown.
Just to verify I haven't skipped any books in the Discworld series
I recall reading a little bit of one where Vimes is remembering a fallen friend, and then ends up becoming that person. I didn't finish it (library copy; life intervened).
Anyone know the title?
Night Watch. Probably my favorite Discworld book but it requires having read most of the previous ones to get the most out of it.
Excellent. I haven't gotten ahead of myself, then. I've just finished Feet of Clay, and am on Jingo now.
You have to read all of the watch books leading up to Night Watch, and to follow some connections, Small Gods, Thief of Time, and The Truth
Some friends-of-friends are over planning a trip to Greece, and they mentioned wanting to go to Rhodes.
I said, "what, to see the big statue?" and posed like the Colossus of Rhodes is often shown. They all just looked at me like I was crazy, because they had no idea what I was talking about.
And one of them is Greek!
Well, I mean, it did fall into the sea a few centuries back. Still...
Well yeah, it's a joke. But c'mon, it's one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and probably on the top 3 best known from that list.
Bones is such a wonderful character. He is part of the trinity of power.
He is really un-bones like at the begining though. Like he doesn't have the technology-hating grumpy old man thing going on. He just plays it like a soap opera doctor at first.
This is true, but really like the rest of the crew he progressed to a much better place over time.
Posts
yaaaay
and Valiant comics
nobody really remembers those
Everytime I think this lady can't be a bigger waste of skin, she goes and does something completely fucking awful all over again.
pleasepaypreacher.net
we're back to "comics"
I think I'm using "hate" in a broader sense than you. Of course it's not the fault of the characters, but I don't feel that that protects them from criticism. I hate the controls in a lot of games, but that's an abstract concept with no agency. I just feel that if a character is out of place, you can hate that, knowing that it was Shakespeare's fault for writing vampires into Hamlet. He made a stupid decision, and the effects of that can be disliked for poisoning an otherwise ok work.
That said I think a huge problem is cross-audience stuff. Like you said, deciding Polonius sucks and instead we should have him be like Spike from Buffy. And then let's change Ophelia out for Druscilla, and Hamlet can be Edward from Twilight why not.
But that's more of a problem with having a varied audience. Switching out Polonius would likely cause a bunch of people to realize how much better he was before he was Spike. You can't please everyone, and I think it's important to realize that some characters could be taken out or altered and cause a drastic improvement in the story while recognizing that, on the whole, people who hate X character probably don't really know what they're talking about.
He likes to hear that, because early in his career he was turned down for sounding "too asian".
pleasepaypreacher.net
I said, "what, to see the big statue?" and posed like the Colossus of Rhodes is often shown. They all just looked at me like I was crazy, because they had no idea what I was talking about.
And one of them is Greek!
Deadpool is the one character that makes me want to read Western comics. But I have no idea what to read then.
Yeah, totally.
The 80s also had the Morlocks, Storm's dark period, and God Loves Man Kills. It was also a pretty iconic period, when you had the core team with most of the major characters together in a single book. I probably shouldn't shit on the X-Men's 80s run too much.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
fixed that for you
Maybe he meant Checkov?
And Bones took a while to become likable. He was pretty bad in the first season (they had that on streaming a while back...)
the term has been reclaimed and redeemed
comics are an amazing laboratory for the study of creativity under pressure
like, Claremont wrote X-Men for nearly twenty years. Sometimes it was great and sometimes it was terrible. And when you read those old issues in big chunks and with an awareness of the context of what was going on with the comics business and with the creators at the time, you can see how the quality was all to do with the kind of collaborators he had, how much of a free hand the editors gave him, and where his interests were at the time.
And because these were coming out monthly, there were no do-overs, no takebacks or anything like that. Instead of this impenetrable, flawless work being handed to you on a platter, you get to see all the guts and gears inside.
Night Watch. Probably my favorite Discworld book but it requires having read most of the previous ones to get the most out of it.
pleasepaypreacher.net
"glazed in mansweat"
So god damn funny
That would be awesome, but you'd need to handicap it.
Like, my character is a wizard who picks up a bow to shoot some guy in the face. I'm a pretty good shot in real life (at least ok) so I should be back like a hundred yards.
Whereas my friend who is missing thumbs is playing the Elven ranger, trained since birth to be a warrior, so he gets to take the shot from five feet away.
It could be modified a bit though, and would be a whole lot of fun. It'd be awesome to feel that that headshot to the mage was successful because you made that shot.
Comics are periodicals. That'd be like calling a serial a novel before it gets finished.
Excellent. I haven't gotten ahead of myself, then. I've just finished Feet of Clay, and am on Jingo now.
Nah she's mary sue who bothers the fuck out of me, on a show full of awful characters she rises above to be shitty character prime.
pleasepaypreacher.net
He is really un-bones like at the begining though. Like he doesn't have the technology-hating grumpy old man thing going on. He just plays it like a soap opera doctor at first.
dangerously close to LARP territory here
Well, I mean, it did fall into the sea a few centuries back. Still...
He's taken an uncommon interest in a younger super hero and always has them hanging around him?
pleasepaypreacher.net
Some of them absolutely are. Which isn't to suggest there is any special importance to superheroes, it's just that the genre happens to be vast and has featured some of the best artists in the medium.
Nah, that kind of stuff isn't for me. The role-playing part. I just like a challenge, so it'd be neat to use real challenges for skill checks.
And it probably didn't look like how it is usually shown.
cool, fun hero who gets really popular and then becomes lame
i don't know if this is a hipsterism or if the popularity altered his character
You have to read all of the watch books leading up to Night Watch, and to follow some connections, Small Gods, Thief of Time, and The Truth
Wait, Wolverine or Pedophilia Batman?
Well, he does have a Kidpool sidekick now. But I was referring to him being in everything everywhere.
Well yeah, it's a joke. But c'mon, it's one of the seven wonders of the ancient world, and probably on the top 3 best known from that list.
This is true, but really like the rest of the crew he progressed to a much better place over time.