#pipeCocky Stride, Musky odoursPope of Chili TownRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
It's kind of a really well written shade of grey I think
The Salarians found the Krogan and unleashed them on the Rachnii
but then when the Rachnii were gone, the Krogan were able to breed and thrive away from their oppressive planet and their aggressive nature meant that in large numbers they were a huge threat to society
it's like when old timey settlers would solve short term pest problems by introducing non-native species, but surprise, the introduced solution turns out to be a bigger problem than ever
Tuchanka was such a fucked up, violent, cut-throat place, that only a certain amount of Krogan could survive there. By taking them away from Tuchanka, but then introducing the Genophage, the Salarians basically levelled out the population.
But on the flip-side, the Krogans are sentient, and not rabbits or toads and when thousands of infants are still-born, the Krogan mourn them.
genophage just reduces the krogan birth rate artificially to how it was before they were uplifted
entirely sustainable
if the krogan weren't an incredibly warlike culture that would rather fight and die than sit down and be constructive and make some babies
genophage just reduces the krogan birth rate artificially to how it was before they were uplifted
entirely sustainable
if the krogan weren't an incredibly warlike culture that would rather fight and die than sit down and be constructive and make some babies
i dont think their family situations were as fucked though
remember the dude who thought he had a kid but he can pretty much never see him because he's in another camp?
and how segregated their society is due to the value of females?
also I think the genophage was cured like, 3 times by now, it's just that we keep fucking it up
genophage just reduces the krogan birth rate artificially to how it was before they were uplifted
entirely sustainable
if the krogan weren't an incredibly warlike culture that would rather fight and die than sit down and be constructive and make some babies
i dont think their family situations were as fucked though
remember the dude who thought he had a kid but he can pretty much never see him because he's in another camp?
and how segregated their society is due to the value of females?
also I think the genophage was cured like, 3 times by now, it's just that we keep fucking it up
I dunno about the other guy but I liked hearing from Mordin's 'kidnapped' assistant that Wrex didn't want to have anything to do with the experiments. I'd like to think that it's not just much how messed up they'd be but also him realizing that it'd be a bad time to undo the genophage as it'd undo his work as well.
have any of you listened to that krogan's entire rant
i usually give up and shoot him when he starts talking about how he's going to eat salarian eggs or some shit
I have. It made it much more fun when I shot him down to his health bar and zapped him with a Singularity. Not going to do much eating now with that big mouth of his flying in circles with the rest of him.
maybe instead of having the genophage make 99.99% births fail, maybe they could make it a nicer number, like 75
Then Krogan would overwhelm the galaxy.
Number was picked for a reason.
Look at the current Krogan culture. At best, it's a fragile move towards not being assholes to people who don't have it coming. This still includes murdering outsiders who get nosy.
Know what that's based on?
Urdnot Wrex being able to honestly say "My way, or we're fucked."
Cure shows up, Krogans won't need Wrex. He might keep a decent core, but he's back to being a voice in the wilderness, hordes show back up, and lord love a duck, either the Turians go "Holy FUCK!" and bomb them back to the stone age (again), or the Krogan start spreading again and we get another fun round of Krogan Rebellions, the home game.
Mordin's a smart guy, and he was working with other very smart guys. All of them but Maelon (who isn't exactly stable) went, basically "Well, this ain't a good option, but it's the best one we have."
Leave things alone, Wrex stays boss, Krogan settle down just enough to go back to get new terms from the Council (Probably as heroes if the Reaper thing shakes out right) and maybe, with a lot of hatred from both sides, get back to where they were when the mess started, without the whole pending war, and they got tankbreds if they need to get back up to speed.
Shake it up, and things snowball.
And I let the whole rant go.
Once. Ultra paragon run.
Every other time, his mouth opens, it gets lit on fire.
Leave things alone, Wrex stays boss, Krogan settle down just enough to go back to get new terms from the Council (Probably as heroes if the Reaper thing shakes out right) and maybe, with a lot of hatred from both sides, get back to where they were when the mess started, without the whole pending war, and they got tankbreds if they need to get back up to speed.
That's pretty much how I saw it.
That's why I had Mordin keep the cure-research data. I know Wrex will need it someday.
Leave things alone, Wrex stays boss, Krogan settle down just enough to go back to get new terms from the Council (Probably as heroes if the Reaper thing shakes out right) and maybe, with a lot of hatred from both sides, get back to where they were when the mess started, without the whole pending war, and they got tankbreds if they need to get back up to speed.
That's pretty much how I saw it.
That's why I had Mordin keep the cure-research data. I know Wrex will need it someday.
Burnt it. If anyone finds out it exists, well, Shepard has been in the middle of enough of them to know the meaning of the phrase political shitstorm. It applies here. Also, as much as the Krogan would be loathe to admit it, the modified rate is much better for the galaxy as a whole. Including them. Thousands born means faster resource consumption, faster spread, and a hell of a lot of trouble. Might be a slightly increased rate would be fine, but knowing the Krogan? It would piss them off more. The bit that rankles is alien tampering as much as anything, and getting the noose slightly loosened for good behavior looks like an insult.
Leave things alone, Wrex stays boss, Krogan settle down just enough to go back to get new terms from the Council (Probably as heroes if the Reaper thing shakes out right) and maybe, with a lot of hatred from both sides, get back to where they were when the mess started, without the whole pending war, and they got tankbreds if they need to get back up to speed.
That's pretty much how I saw it.
That's why I had Mordin keep the cure-research data. I know Wrex will need it someday.
Burnt it. If anyone finds out it exists, well, Shepard has been in the middle of enough of them to know the meaning of the phrase political shitstorm. It applies here. Also, as much as the Krogan would be loathe to admit it, the modified rate is much better for the galaxy as a whole. Including them. Thousands born means faster resource consumption, faster spread, and a hell of a lot of trouble. Might be a slightly increased rate would be fine, but knowing the Krogan? It would piss them off more. The bit that rankles is alien tampering as much as anything, and getting the noose slightly loosened for good behavior looks like an insult.
Understandable. I like to present this as a rebuttal as well as one of my biggest reasons to keep the data.
Leave things alone, Wrex stays boss, Krogan settle down just enough to go back to get new terms from the Council (Probably as heroes if the Reaper thing shakes out right) and maybe, with a lot of hatred from both sides, get back to where they were when the mess started, without the whole pending war, and they got tankbreds if they need to get back up to speed.
That's pretty much how I saw it.
That's why I had Mordin keep the cure-research data. I know Wrex will need it someday.
Burnt it. If anyone finds out it exists, well, Shepard has been in the middle of enough of them to know the meaning of the phrase political shitstorm. It applies here. Also, as much as the Krogan would be loathe to admit it, the modified rate is much better for the galaxy as a whole. Including them. Thousands born means faster resource consumption, faster spread, and a hell of a lot of trouble. Might be a slightly increased rate would be fine, but knowing the Krogan? It would piss them off more. The bit that rankles is alien tampering as much as anything, and getting the noose slightly loosened for good behavior looks like an insult.
Understandable. I like to present this as a rebuttal as well as one of my biggest reasons to keep the data.
I know.
Like the man said
"Hard to see big picture behind pile of corpses."
He's right about that. But somebody has to. In the end, there are a lot of situations that end in agony for a lot of people. Hard to figure out the best choice, harder to see it through, but if you don't, everything gets even worse.
FlatEricLeaves from the vine, Falling so slowLike fragile, tiny shells, Drifting in the foamRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
I kept the data. Anything that could help a cure along shouldn't be simply discarded.
The implementation of the genophage is what bothers me the most. At a risk of sounding cliched, there has to be a better way.
I'm hoping that the issue of the genophage and the fate of the krogan is some part of a sidquest chain you can pursue in ME3. I'd like to see something similar for the quarians/geth too.
Leave things alone, Wrex stays boss, Krogan settle down just enough to go back to get new terms from the Council (Probably as heroes if the Reaper thing shakes out right) and maybe, with a lot of hatred from both sides, get back to where they were when the mess started, without the whole pending war, and they got tankbreds if they need to get back up to speed.
That's pretty much how I saw it.
That's why I had Mordin keep the cure-research data. I know Wrex will need it someday.
Burnt it. If anyone finds out it exists, well, Shepard has been in the middle of enough of them to know the meaning of the phrase political shitstorm. It applies here. Also, as much as the Krogan would be loathe to admit it, the modified rate is much better for the galaxy as a whole. Including them. Thousands born means faster resource consumption, faster spread, and a hell of a lot of trouble. Might be a slightly increased rate would be fine, but knowing the Krogan? It would piss them off more. The bit that rankles is alien tampering as much as anything, and getting the noose slightly loosened for good behavior looks like an insult.
And if anyone finds out it existed, and doesn't now, that's not going to be a political shitstorm?
No, this one I'm leaving up to Wrex, my [strike]black[/strike] krogan friend. He seems to have a handle on things, and as pointed out earlier, for him to unite the krogan, the genophage needs to stay in place for the time being. I don't want to even imagine what his reaction would be to finding out I'd destroyed the research data that could save his people when they're ready to be saved.
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you're = you are
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
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Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
Leave things alone, Wrex stays boss, Krogan settle down just enough to go back to get new terms from the Council (Probably as heroes if the Reaper thing shakes out right) and maybe, with a lot of hatred from both sides, get back to where they were when the mess started, without the whole pending war, and they got tankbreds if they need to get back up to speed.
That's pretty much how I saw it.
That's why I had Mordin keep the cure-research data. I know Wrex will need it someday.
Burnt it. If anyone finds out it exists, well, Shepard has been in the middle of enough of them to know the meaning of the phrase political shitstorm. It applies here. Also, as much as the Krogan would be loathe to admit it, the modified rate is much better for the galaxy as a whole. Including them. Thousands born means faster resource consumption, faster spread, and a hell of a lot of trouble. Might be a slightly increased rate would be fine, but knowing the Krogan? It would piss them off more. The bit that rankles is alien tampering as much as anything, and getting the noose slightly loosened for good behavior looks like an insult.
And if anyone finds out it existed, and doesn't now, that's not going to be a political shitstorm?
No, this one I'm leaving up to Wrex, my [strike]black[/strike] krogan friend. He seems to have a handle on things, and as pointed out earlier, for him to unite the krogan, the genophage needs to stay in place for the time being. I don't want to even imagine what his reaction would be to finding out I'd destroyed the research data that could save his people when they're ready to be saved.
Yeah. I couldn't stand the idea of Wrex knowing I threw away a chance to maybe help his dudes. And maybe if/when they and the galaxy are ready for them to increase in population again, it would be good for a salarian to say "Here's the work we've done so far on a cure.". Kind of shows that the intention all along wasn't just to totally fuck the krogan up forever, that there was always an idea of fixing it.
I love this whole discussion, and how hard it is to feel good about any of the options (unless you're a krogan hater, I guess). Despite all the weird creepy shit ME can inspire I hope the writers feel proud that they have provoked a recurring, civilised debate about ethics with their shooty space game.
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WeaverWho are you?What do you want?Registered Userregular
I love this whole discussion, and how hard it is to feel good about any of the options (unless you're a krogan hater, I guess). Despite all the weird creepy shit ME can inspire I hope the writers feel proud that they have provoked a recurring, civilised debate about ethics with their shooty space game.
I've actually been thinking of the ethics of the Genophage all afternoon because of this discussion
it's really really balanced on either side and it's genuinly difficult to say one side was right and one was wrong and that's
I mean that's very unusual in videogames where the decision trees are more like
but yeah the Genophage was something that was wasn't full Paragon on. I wasn't all like "fuck yeah burn the Krogunz" but I did say to Mordin that I accepted his reasoning and I think he made the right choice. I mean he did rationally state that it was either the genophage or genocide, and the latter is clearly more ethically horrible. The Genophage was not nice, but it was the best option. As Mordin says, the Salarians were dumb to uplift them in the first place.
Now as for the geth, yeah i sympathise with them. Dumb Quarians. Admiral Quib Quib was painted as some sort of simpering pansy, but as far as I was concerned he was the only admiral who wasn't a fucking retard. What was it he said? "Of course the drove us away, we tried to kill them."
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#pipeCocky Stride, Musky odoursPope of Chili TownRegistered Userregular
edited March 2011
And after you do Tali's loyalty you get the email from some admiral who's like "I found the data and you humans will be sorry when we beat your ass with our new synthetic army"
It seems to me that the context of Legion's mission changes when faced with Tali's.
Brainwashing a sentient being, regardless of its chemical composition, is little fucked up. On the other hand, killing the heretics still seems like a waste of life. When the Quarians mention retaking the homeworld by force, a strengthened Geth presence would deflect, hopefully discourage such a suicidal attack, as well as provide more strength against the Reaper threat.
I enjoy trying to work my head around Gethics, either way.
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I'm not seeing it
Also I'm not getting the reference in that painting
most salarians are short
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
You don't argue with Mordin.
You remind him he's right. Because he is, and the paragon options are the asshole ones there.
Mordin's mission is one of the few times renegade is the nice guy button.
Why I fear the ocean.
I'm ashamed I missed that
Mordin is one of the best characters in video games.
Booooring.
Much more interesting to play devil's advocate.
The Salarians found the Krogan and unleashed them on the Rachnii
but then when the Rachnii were gone, the Krogan were able to breed and thrive away from their oppressive planet and their aggressive nature meant that in large numbers they were a huge threat to society
it's like when old timey settlers would solve short term pest problems by introducing non-native species, but surprise, the introduced solution turns out to be a bigger problem than ever
Tuchanka was such a fucked up, violent, cut-throat place, that only a certain amount of Krogan could survive there. By taking them away from Tuchanka, but then introducing the Genophage, the Salarians basically levelled out the population.
But on the flip-side, the Krogans are sentient, and not rabbits or toads and when thousands of infants are still-born, the Krogan mourn them.
Not right, not wrong.
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
white
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
"yes? what about it?"
"maybe uh. maybe uh we can do something with it? make the genophage less extreme?"
"not now"
"well uh maybe later?"
"not now, shepard"
entirely sustainable
if the krogan weren't an incredibly warlike culture that would rather fight and die than sit down and be constructive and make some babies
i dont think their family situations were as fucked though
remember the dude who thought he had a kid but he can pretty much never see him because he's in another camp?
and how segregated their society is due to the value of females?
also I think the genophage was cured like, 3 times by now, it's just that we keep fucking it up
Seriously just give me plenty more Legion in ME3 and I will be a happy man for my remaining years.
i usually give up and shoot him when he starts talking about how he's going to eat salarian eggs or some shit
i usually give up and shoot him when he starts talking about how he's going to eat salarian eggs or some shit
he goes on a really long time
there are like five renegade interrupts
your squadmates start looking at you funny
the guy repeats himself
the game really starts to wonder why you aren't just pulling that trigger
I have. It made it much more fun when I shot him down to his health bar and zapped him with a Singularity. Not going to do much eating now with that big mouth of his flying in circles with the rest of him.
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
Then Krogan would overwhelm the galaxy.
Number was picked for a reason.
Look at the current Krogan culture. At best, it's a fragile move towards not being assholes to people who don't have it coming. This still includes murdering outsiders who get nosy.
Know what that's based on?
Urdnot Wrex being able to honestly say "My way, or we're fucked."
Cure shows up, Krogans won't need Wrex. He might keep a decent core, but he's back to being a voice in the wilderness, hordes show back up, and lord love a duck, either the Turians go "Holy FUCK!" and bomb them back to the stone age (again), or the Krogan start spreading again and we get another fun round of Krogan Rebellions, the home game.
Mordin's a smart guy, and he was working with other very smart guys. All of them but Maelon (who isn't exactly stable) went, basically "Well, this ain't a good option, but it's the best one we have."
Leave things alone, Wrex stays boss, Krogan settle down just enough to go back to get new terms from the Council (Probably as heroes if the Reaper thing shakes out right) and maybe, with a lot of hatred from both sides, get back to where they were when the mess started, without the whole pending war, and they got tankbreds if they need to get back up to speed.
Shake it up, and things snowball.
And I let the whole rant go.
Once. Ultra paragon run.
Every other time, his mouth opens, it gets lit on fire.
Why I fear the ocean.
That's pretty much how I saw it.
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
Why I fear the ocean.
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
I know.
"Hard to see big picture behind pile of corpses."
He's right about that. But somebody has to. In the end, there are a lot of situations that end in agony for a lot of people. Hard to figure out the best choice, harder to see it through, but if you don't, everything gets even worse.
Why I fear the ocean.
Sure krogans would fuck it up for everybody if the genophage was reversed
But they're sentient creatures.
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
The implementation of the genophage is what bothers me the most. At a risk of sounding cliched, there has to be a better way.
I'm hoping that the issue of the genophage and the fate of the krogan is some part of a sidquest chain you can pursue in ME3. I'd like to see something similar for the quarians/geth too.
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
No, this one I'm leaving up to Wrex, my [strike]black[/strike] krogan friend. He seems to have a handle on things, and as pointed out earlier, for him to unite the krogan, the genophage needs to stay in place for the time being. I don't want to even imagine what his reaction would be to finding out I'd destroyed the research data that could save his people when they're ready to be saved.
your = belonging to you
their = belonging to them
there = not here
they're = they are
I love this whole discussion, and how hard it is to feel good about any of the options (unless you're a krogan hater, I guess). Despite all the weird creepy shit ME can inspire I hope the writers feel proud that they have provoked a recurring, civilised debate about ethics with their shooty space game.
that gear was pretty neat
Let's Play Final Fantasy 'II' (Ch10 - 5/17/10)
I've actually been thinking of the ethics of the Genophage all afternoon because of this discussion
it's really really balanced on either side and it's genuinly difficult to say one side was right and one was wrong and that's
I mean that's very unusual in videogames where the decision trees are more like
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
I love that comic
but yeah the Genophage was something that was wasn't full Paragon on. I wasn't all like "fuck yeah burn the Krogunz" but I did say to Mordin that I accepted his reasoning and I think he made the right choice. I mean he did rationally state that it was either the genophage or genocide, and the latter is clearly more ethically horrible. The Genophage was not nice, but it was the best option. As Mordin says, the Salarians were dumb to uplift them in the first place.
Now as for the geth, yeah i sympathise with them. Dumb Quarians. Admiral Quib Quib was painted as some sort of simpering pansy, but as far as I was concerned he was the only admiral who wasn't a fucking retard. What was it he said? "Of course the drove us away, we tried to kill them."
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and I'm like
sins
of
the
father
Need some stuff designed or printed? I can help with that.
yes try that bitch
you will not with laughing when I crush you with the aid of the old synthetic army
I enjoy trying to work my head around Gethics, either way.
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