Or maybe people bitch about the jargon solely so they have an excuse not to engage the topic, which seems much more likely to me. I agree that "inflammatory jargon" is counterproductive, but it is only counterproductive because people choose the path of lazy ignorance rather than thinking first and talking later. They seem the words "rape culture" and rather than even bothering to investigate the meaning of that phrase, they just make assumptions and jump right into railing against it. Now, I ask you: Who is to blame here? The people using the term "rape culture" in earnest, or the people railing against it who haven't bothered to do a few minimal google searches to try and learn the meaning of the phrase?
I agree with you, that's a real thing, and in that instance it would be the fault of the person. You'll find an equivalent sort of ignorance in any argument, though, and they never comprise the entirety of the opposition.
To be honest, as I'm typing this, I sort of see a parallel to the this whole dickwolf thing (+1 ON-TOPIC COMBO). It rapidly becomes a situation where one side felt attacked, so they go on the offensive, to which there is a response in kind, and then it becomes an entrenched verbal knife-fight that shoots so far past the point that you'd have to send it post-cards to keep in touch.
No, I don't buy that, having had this discussion and having discussed just about every other feminist-related topic going on this board multiple times before. I think that no matter what its called, some people will always assume that the concept means "lawl all men are rapists" when it quite plainly does not. These people shit me, because all they're doing is making the issue all about them, when it doesn't have to be. This happens with topic after topic. I don't know why these people are so driven to paint themselves as victims, but its not productive.
I'm not going to argue with your experiences. You've probably participated in more thread about it here than I've read. If there's one thing to take from this whole situation, though, it's probably that it isn't that hard for someone to feel attacked by something that wasn't attacking them, and things can rapidly spiral out of control from there.
( imperfect analogy to the situation, I know, but I'm not one to let historical details get in the way of TRU-HUMANFACTZ(c) and a TOUCHING MORAL(c) )
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
Or, alternatively, if we talked about the core problems instead of obscuring them behind a piece of inflammatory jargon, it'd have the same implications but wouldn't raise all a bunch of stupid divisiveness like what is seen here or really most places where it is brought up. Is the phrase "rape culture" so important that every discussion about it needs to be 50% justifying the words instead of the content?
I think there's a significant portion of folks that have the kind of knee-jerk reaction to the phrase that is easily seen here. However, a fair amount of that same portion might agree with the core concepts.
Feminism is definitionally a movement existing to effect change. If you think it's immature to worry about whether or not a phrase popular among some is conducive to bringing about that change in others, then man, I don't know what to tell you. It's easy to make the concepts clear and digestible, and no piece of jargon is worth saving in the face of that.
No, I don't buy that, having had this discussion and having discussed just about every other feminist-related topic going on this board multiple times before. I think that no matter what its called, some people will always assume that the concept means "lawl all men are rapists" when it quite plainly does not. These people shit me, because all they're doing is making the issue all about them, when it doesn't have to be. This happens with topic after topic. I don't know why these people are so driven to paint themselves as victims, but its not productive.
I really don't want to get anecdotal here, but when I first heard "Rape Culture", I was immediately tossing the entire idea out the window, and wondering how many crackpots actually thought that there was a large sect of society who wants to rape people.
Yes, the terminology is fucking terrible for conveying the point.
Will you get some people that still won't get it? Of course you will. But I would be willing to believe the number would be a lot lower if it wasn't wrapped up in a term that is inherently pointing a finger at everyone and saying, "Rapist".
If you call the police to report a rape, they show up and investigate. Now, the devil's in the details and policing still needs a lot of improvement, but you will not hear a 9-1-1 operator say, "Oh, we don't bother with rapes," before hanging-up and you don't read about how wonderful rape is from a significant lobbying group.
Not everywhere in the US. In Baltimore only 60% of rapes reported to 911 even get written down. The other 40% get ignored based on nothing other than the gut feelings of the officer taking the call. Of the ones that get written down, another 30ish percent get written off during the initial investigation. There are fun cases like the woman who was bleeding from multiple orifices with some of her clothes torn off when she flagged down a patrol car and the cop decided there wasn't enough evidence to make a police report after taking her to the ER.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
Or, alternatively, if we talked about the core problems instead of obscuring them behind a piece of inflammatory jargon, it'd have the same implications but wouldn't raise all a bunch of stupid divisiveness like what is seen here or really most places where it is brought up. Is the phrase "rape culture" so important that every discussion about it needs to be 50% justifying the words instead of the content?
I think there's a significant portion of folks that have the kind of knee-jerk reaction to the phrase that is easily seen here. However, a fair amount of that same portion might agree with the core concepts.
Feminism is definitionally a movement existing to effect change. If you think it's immature to worry about whether or not a phrase popular among some is conducive to bringing about that change in others, then man, I don't know what to tell you. It's easy to make the concepts clear and digestible, and no piece of jargon is worth saving in the face of that.
No, I don't buy that, having had this discussion and having discussed just about every other feminist-related topic going on this board multiple times before. I think that no matter what its called, some people will always assume that the concept means "lawl all men are rapists" when it quite plainly does not. These people shit me, because all they're doing is making the issue all about them, when it doesn't have to be. This happens with topic after topic. I don't know why these people are so driven to paint themselves as victims, but its not productive.
I really don't want to get anecdotal here, but when I first heard "Rape Culture", I was immediately tossing the entire idea out the window, and wondering how many crackpots actually thought that there was a large sect of society who wants to rape people.
Yes, the terminology is fucking terrible for conveying the point.
Will you get some people that still won't get it? Of course you will. But I would be willing to believe the number would be a lot lower if it wasn't wrapped up in a term that is inherently pointing a finger at everyone and saying, "Rapist".
I actually don't understand how someone could construe "you are contributing to rape culture" as "you are a rapist" or "you want to rape." I honestly don't understand that leap. If someone really wanted to accuse someone of rapist tendencies, why would they use a euphemism?
No, I don't buy that, having had this discussion and having discussed just about every other feminist-related topic going on this board multiple times before. I think that no matter what its called, some people will always assume that the concept means "lawl all men are rapists" when it quite plainly does not. These people shit me, because all they're doing is making the issue all about them, when it doesn't have to be. This happens with topic after topic. I don't know why these people are so driven to paint themselves as victims, but its not productive.
I'm not going to argue with your experiences. You've probably participated in more thread about it here than I've read. If there's one thing to take from this whole situation, though, it's probably that it isn't that hard for someone to feel attacked by something that wasn't attacking them, and things can rapidly spiral out of control from there.
( imperfect analogy to the situation, I know, but I'm not one to let historical details get in the way of TRU-HUMANFACTZ(c) and a TOUCHING MORAL(c) )
Sure. I have a harder time ascribing such genuine motives to many of the reactions that pop up in those threads, but some of them have to be actually confused...
I may get some interesting responses to this, but part of the problem is that we're talking at least partly about subtle societal influences, and on an american-dominated board, it doesn't go well. In such a strongly individualistic culture, the thought of being shaped by such forces ty all seems to really piss some people off. Doesn't just happen in gender threads, but any topic that talks about society and culture gets a handful of very angry people who just don't want social influences to be real at all.
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
The Isaac Hayes comment? He used to play Chef on South Park. He took part in the bashing of all sorts of weird topics. Suddenly a topic came up that played with something he liked and he threw a shit fit and left the show because of it. Similar because apparently these people were readers of Penny-Arcade and the thought of dickwovles raping NPCs in an MMO upset them for some reason. Maybe their parents were NPCs or quest designers who were tortured at night of the thought of these dickwolves, or something. Or they were looking for publicity and controversy and acted like, basically, giant assfaces. Penny-arcade is similar to South Park in that they both attack and broach a series of pretty untamed, definitely not PC, concepts.
They apparently have not read PA for long if they got upset by rape. Or Bestiality for that matter. No this wasn't about trigger words, this wasn't about rape, this was about a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do with their time than making internet controversy over a silly topic, that wasn't even the topic. It's like getting upset with your sugar cookies because they contain maltose instead of dextrose and that fucking upsets you because your mom was mugged by maltose and they're totally rubbing it in your face. Okay it's not, but still.
So yeah, I think I agree with darkwolfe here in hoping that they just take off. It doesn't really tell you much about his personality. If you think he's childish for wanting that, that's cool, it's your opinion but I think the original issue was infantile.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I actually don't understand how someone could construe "you are contributing to rape culture" as "you are a rapist" or "you want to rape." I honestly don't understand that leap. If someone really wanted to accuse someone of rapist tendencies, why would they use a euphemism?
McEwan is on record for this fiasco as calling anyone who makes rape jokes a rape apologist. She is also on the record for calling people who voice a differing opinion as equivalent to a a rapist.
McEwan is relevant because she was there in the beginning manufacturing this faux outrage, and she continues to stoke the flames.
No, I don't buy that, having had this discussion and having discussed just about every other feminist-related topic going on this board multiple times before. I think that no matter what its called, some people will always assume that the concept means "lawl all men are rapists" when it quite plainly does not. These people shit me, because all they're doing is making the issue all about them, when it doesn't have to be. This happens with topic after topic. I don't know why these people are so driven to paint themselves as victims, but its not productive.
I'm not going to argue with your experiences. You've probably participated in more thread about it here than I've read. If there's one thing to take from this whole situation, though, it's probably that it isn't that hard for someone to feel attacked by something that wasn't attacking them, and things can rapidly spiral out of control from there.
( imperfect analogy to the situation, I know, but I'm not one to let historical details get in the way of TRU-HUMANFACTZ(c) and a TOUCHING MORAL(c) )
Sure. I have a harder time ascribing such genuine motives to many of the reactions that pop up in those threads, but some of them have to be actually confused...
I may get some interesting responses to this, but part of the problem is that we're talking at least partly about subtle societal influences, and on an american-dominated board, it doesn't go well. In such a strongly individualistic culture, the thought of being shaped by such forces ty all seems to really piss some people off. Doesn't just happen in gender threads, but any topic that talks about society and culture gets a handful of very angry people who just don't want social influences to be real at all.
Well...yes. That is a problem I've seen here and it is a problem from the most liberal liberals to the most conservative conservatives. The entitlement complex of "I am me, I have a right to say and think and do what I want; fuck off" is gallingly apparent here, especially in New York. Hell, I engage in it myself, fairly often, though I try to be aware of it and try not to. I think most people either aren't aware of it, or don't want to be aware of it lest they be burdened by the responsibility of trying not to act or think that way.
I really don't want to get anecdotal here, but when I first heard "Rape Culture", I was immediately tossing the entire idea out the window, and wondering how many crackpots actually thought that there was a large sect of society who wants to rape people.
Yes, the terminology is fucking terrible for conveying the point.
Will you get some people that still won't get it? Of course you will. But I would be willing to believe the number would be a lot lower if it wasn't wrapped up in a term that is inherently pointing a finger at everyone and saying, "Rapist".
It isn't inherent at all. I'm sorry, but the bottom line is that if you can't even take the time to type the phrase into google without getting all het up, the problem isn't the phrase.
That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
What's interesting to me is that you cast those who agree with Zafrod--like myself, presumably--as "offended", and having a "source of outrage". Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see much in the way of offence or outrage coming from this camp. Disappointment, sure. Maybe that exists on a continuum with offence and outrage further down the line. Maybe we differ on where the line is drawn, but I have seen more even-handed, conciliatory posts from people who appear to think that there may be some merit to the notion that the second comic might be problematic to some people.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
What still gets me is my exchange with Darkwolfe like 20 pages back.
Darkwolfe: I hope all of you who don't like the response comic leave Penny Arcade in a huff.
Me: Well, that says a lot about the kind of personality you have.
Darkwolfe: You can't infer anything about my personality from my post!
What? Are people really this dense and disconnected?
That's some serious reductionism right there. Let's try my translation.
Darkewolfe: Lots of people have threatened to leave over this. If the choice is between throwing out this entire brand of humor or losing those people, I hope they leave in a huff.
Drez: I can tell I wouldn't like you from the personality you exhibit in that post.
Darkewolfe: Well, you can certainly tell that I'm angry about the ridiculous responses that have come out of this crowd.
Followed by me explaining what I think the phrase rape culture, in American society, should mean, (as opposed to anywhere that has a REAL rape culture), and why I think we should do more to help rape victims.
The only thing you can tell, Drez, is that I don't seem to like you. And if you engage in this sort of petulant flamebaiting over perceived hostility from entertainers who have no actual gripe with you, then I probably don't.
I think the reason this strikes a cord with this group of people are the parallels between some people's concept of "rape culture" and the whole "TV/Violent Videogames/Monster Truck rallies/etc. are causing kids to be more violence" trope that really heated up a couple years back with his dickness Jack Thompson.
I still have no concise picture of what rape culture is supposed to be given that I've read about 20 different interpretations, but I can see how one would see the parallels, and given the reaction to Jack Thompson and his ilk, the "us vs. them" mentality isn't really surprising.
Yeah, walking down a dangerous neighborhood increases the odds of getting shot, but I don't blame him or even suggest that choosing to walk down that street somehow makes him responsible for taking the bullet.
I think this example addresses the myth about survivors being "responsible" for their own rape, but misses a deeper problem.
People believe that dressing "sexily" increases the odds of being raped. When asked, a person might explain this with the belief that rape is about sex and "provoking" sexual desire increases the likelihood of rape. But it is a myth that rape is about sex (most rapists have access to a sexual partner). Restricting our attention to men who rape women, this explanation also invokes the all to common myth that men are compelled to express sexual desire with violence.
SkyGheNe's example describes someone who does something risky and is blamed for being victimized.
A better example would describe someone who goes about her day to day life, is victimized, is blamed for being victimized, and then has the whole ordeal explained away by folk psychology. The perpetrator is then excused with a second dose of the same.
I suspect that very few people, at least here, would disagree with the existence of rape culture if nobody called it that. To be honest, it is just an inflammatory phrase that seems more likely to alienate someone.
Indeed. It strikes me as a very simplistic term, because it puts, say, committing rape and telling a rape joke on the same continuum, and suggests that there is a direct connection between them, and that the people who engage in those activities are the same on some fundamental level. I don't think that's even slightly true.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
Or, alternatively, if we talked about the core problems instead of obscuring them behind a piece of inflammatory jargon, it'd have the same implications but wouldn't raise all a bunch of stupid divisiveness like what is seen here or really most places where it is brought up. Is the phrase "rape culture" so important that every discussion about it needs to be 50% justifying the words instead of the content?
I think there's a significant portion of folks that have the kind of knee-jerk reaction to the phrase that is easily seen here. However, a fair amount of that same portion might agree with the core concepts.
Feminism is definitionally a movement existing to effect change. If you think it's immature to worry about whether or not a phrase popular among some is conducive to bringing about that change in others, then man, I don't know what to tell you. It's easy to make the concepts clear and digestible, and no piece of jargon is worth saving in the face of that.
No, I don't buy that, having had this discussion and having discussed just about every other feminist-related topic going on this board multiple times before. I think that no matter what its called, some people will always assume that the concept means "lawl all men are rapists" when it quite plainly does not. These people shit me, because all they're doing is making the issue all about them, when it doesn't have to be. This happens with topic after topic. I don't know why these people are so driven to paint themselves as victims, but its not productive.
I really don't want to get anecdotal here, but when I first heard "Rape Culture", I was immediately tossing the entire idea out the window, and wondering how many crackpots actually thought that there was a large sect of society who wants to rape people.
Yes, the terminology is fucking terrible for conveying the point.
Will you get some people that still won't get it? Of course you will. But I would be willing to believe the number would be a lot lower if it wasn't wrapped up in a term that is inherently pointing a finger at everyone and saying, "Rapist".
I honestly don't understand. Why did you make that leap? Can you explain your thought processes? Why do you feel it is pointing fingers at anybody? Or calling anybody a rapist?
But when I first heard the term I instantly knew exactly what it was referring to and thought it was pretty brilliant shorthand because it got its meaning across so well. So I just don't understand all the anger against the name. And a bunch of posters just keep saying it is inflammatory and how you all thought it meant something very different than it does like it is obvious why you think that. Could you explain?
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
The Isaac Hayes comment? He used to play Chef on South Park. He took part in the bashing of all sorts of weird topics. Suddenly a topic came up that played with something he liked and he threw a shit fit and left the show because of it. Similar because apparently these people were readers of Penny-Arcade and the thought of dickwovles raping NPCs in an MMO upset them for some reason. Maybe their parents were NPCs or quest designers who were tortured at night of the thought of these dickwolves, or something. Or they were looking for publicity and controversy and acted like, basically, giant assfaces. Penny-arcade is similar to South Park in that they both attack and broach a series of pretty untamed, definitely not PC, concepts.
They apparently have not read PA for long if they got upset by rape. Or Bestiality for that matter. No this wasn't about trigger words, this wasn't about rape, this was about a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do with their time than making internet controversy over a silly topic, that wasn't even the topic. It's like getting upset with your sugar cookies because they contain maltose instead of dextrose and that fucking upsets you because your mom was mugged by maltose and they're totally rubbing it in your face. Okay it's not, but still.
So yeah, I think I agree with darkwolfe here in hoping that they just take off. It doesn't really tell you much about his personality. If you think he's childish for wanting that, that's cool, it's your opinion but I think the original issue was infantile.
See, and I find the fact that you can't even start to understand why anyone would have a problem with that comic, even if you don't agree, to be completely foreign to me. It almost seems sociopathic that you can't even think of one single reason why someone might have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it, but I can definitely see why someone would, and I can respect that hypothetical person enough to assume that whatever problem they have is a valid one for them, and that they are expressing their discontent in good faith. Do I wish people had a thicker skin? Sure. But just because they don't doesn't mean they don't deserve to voice their opinion when something bothers them. And seriously wanting them to leave this community, a community which actually has about as much to do with the PA comic as my local Gamestop does, is just ridiculous.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
I think the reason this strikes a cord with this group of people are the parallels between some people's concept of "rape culture" and the whole "TV/Violent Videogames/Monster Truck rallies/etc. are causing kids to be more violence" trope that really heated up a couple years back with his dickness Jack Thompson.
I still have no concise picture of what rape culture is supposed to be given that I've read about 20 different interpretations, but I can see how one would see the parallels, and given the reaction to Jack Thompson and his ilk, the "us vs. them" mentality isn't really surprising.
I've been thinking much the same, and I think that line of thought is what fuelled the responses from G&T that everyone is up in arms about. The accusations seemed so off base to them that they couldn't be bothered to take it seriously.
Yeah, walking down a dangerous neighborhood increases the odds of getting shot, but I don't blame him or even suggest that choosing to walk down that street somehow makes him responsible for taking the bullet.
I think this example addresses the myth about survivors being "responsible" for their own rape, but misses a deeper problem.
People believe that dressing "sexily" increases the odds of being raped. When asked, a person might explain this with the belief that rape is about sex and "provoking" sexual desire increases the likelihood of rape. But it is a myth that rape is about sex (most rapists have access to a sexual partner). Restricting our attention to men who rape women, this explanation also invokes the all to common myth that men are compelled to express sexual desire with violence.
SkyGheNe's example describes someone who does something risky and is blamed for being victimized.
A better example would describe someone who goes about her day to day life, is victimized, is blamed for being victimized, and then has the whole ordeal explained away by folk psychology. The perpetrator is then excused with a second dose of the same.
I was under the impression that rape was almost never about sex and almost always about power. Even between women->men rape.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I think the reason this strikes a cord with this group of people are the parallels between some people's concept of "rape culture" and the whole "TV/Violent Videogames/Monster Truck rallies/etc. are causing kids to be more violence" trope that really heated up a couple years back with his dickness Jack Thompson.
I still have no concise picture of what rape culture is supposed to be given that I've read about 20 different interpretations, but I can see how one would see the parallels, and given the reaction to Jack Thompson and his ilk, the "us vs. them" mentality isn't really surprising.
I've been thinking much the same, and I think that line of thought is what fuelled the responses from G&T that everyone is up in arms about. The accusations seemed so off base to them that they couldn't be bothered to take it seriously.
Which is the problem. Mike underestimated who was watching him. He fired a salvo at "the crazies" and unfortunately offended the larger group of rape survivors/feminists/etc. etc.
I would probably guess after his remarks on twitter and the escalation, he realized this, and that's why he's shut himself up, which is probably the best thing he could've done for the time being.
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
The Isaac Hayes comment? He used to play Chef on South Park. He took part in the bashing of all sorts of weird topics. Suddenly a topic came up that played with something he liked and he threw a shit fit and left the show because of it. Similar because apparently these people were readers of Penny-Arcade and the thought of dickwovles raping NPCs in an MMO upset them for some reason. Maybe their parents were NPCs or quest designers who were tortured at night of the thought of these dickwolves, or something. Or they were looking for publicity and controversy and acted like, basically, giant assfaces. Penny-arcade is similar to South Park in that they both attack and broach a series of pretty untamed, definitely not PC, concepts.
They apparently have not read PA for long if they got upset by rape. Or Bestiality for that matter. No this wasn't about trigger words, this wasn't about rape, this was about a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do with their time than making internet controversy over a silly topic, that wasn't even the topic. It's like getting upset with your sugar cookies because they contain maltose instead of dextrose and that fucking upsets you because your mom was mugged by maltose and they're totally rubbing it in your face. Okay it's not, but still.
So yeah, I think I agree with darkwolfe here in hoping that they just take off. It doesn't really tell you much about his personality. If you think he's childish for wanting that, that's cool, it's your opinion but I think the original issue was infantile.
See, and I find the fact that you can't even start to understand why anyone would have a problem with that comic, even if you don't agree, to be completely foreign to me. It almost seems sociopathic that you can't even think of one single reason why someone might have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it, but I can definitely see why someone would, and I can respect that hypothetical person enough to assume that whatever problem they have is a valid one for them, and that they are expressing their discontent in good faith. Do I wish people had a thicker skin? Sure. But just because they don't doesn't mean they don't deserve to voice their opinion when something bothers them. And seriously wanting them to leave this community, a community which actually has about as much to do with the PA comic as my local Gamestop does, is just ridiculous.
We're going in circles in this thread at this point. We already established that the view point I share, which I'm assuming Bowen also shares, is not that it's impossible to be offended by that comic. It's that that brand of humor is what we do around here. I don't want anyone's feelings to be hurt, so if they can't appreciate that kind of humor, it'd probably be best if they went and found something else more appealing to them, rather than shitting all over these forums.
Yeah, walking down a dangerous neighborhood increases the odds of getting shot, but I don't blame him or even suggest that choosing to walk down that street somehow makes him responsible for taking the bullet.
I think this example addresses the myth about survivors being "responsible" for their own rape, but misses a deeper problem.
People believe that dressing "sexily" increases the odds of being raped. When asked, a person might explain this with the belief that rape is about sex and "provoking" sexual desire increases the likelihood of rape. But it is a myth that rape is about sex (most rapists have access to a sexual partner). Restricting our attention to men who rape women, this explanation also invokes the all to common myth that men are compelled to express sexual desire with violence.
SkyGheNe's example describes someone who does something risky and is blamed for being victimized.
A better example would describe someone who goes about her day to day life, is victimized, is blamed for being victimized, and then has the whole ordeal explained away by folk psychology. The perpetrator is then excused with a second dose of the same.
Rape is always about establishing power and domination on some level. However, it is disingenous to say that, in all cases, it is not about sex or sexual desire. Certainly, there are lots of cases where it isn't, as in the 90 year-old grandmother who gets raped or the new prisoner who gets raped. In some cases, though, it is plainly about sex. A man wants to have sex with a woman; she refuses to consent; he continues anyway and rapes her. Admittedly, that is about him expressing his right to have access to her, and his dominance over her; however, it's also about him wanting to have sex with her.
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
The Isaac Hayes comment? He used to play Chef on South Park. He took part in the bashing of all sorts of weird topics. Suddenly a topic came up that played with something he liked and he threw a shit fit and left the show because of it. Similar because apparently these people were readers of Penny-Arcade and the thought of dickwovles raping NPCs in an MMO upset them for some reason. Maybe their parents were NPCs or quest designers who were tortured at night of the thought of these dickwolves, or something. Or they were looking for publicity and controversy and acted like, basically, giant assfaces. Penny-arcade is similar to South Park in that they both attack and broach a series of pretty untamed, definitely not PC, concepts.
They apparently have not read PA for long if they got upset by rape. Or Bestiality for that matter. No this wasn't about trigger words, this wasn't about rape, this was about a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do with their time than making internet controversy over a silly topic, that wasn't even the topic. It's like getting upset with your sugar cookies because they contain maltose instead of dextrose and that fucking upsets you because your mom was mugged by maltose and they're totally rubbing it in your face. Okay it's not, but still.
So yeah, I think I agree with darkwolfe here in hoping that they just take off. It doesn't really tell you much about his personality. If you think he's childish for wanting that, that's cool, it's your opinion but I think the original issue was infantile.
See, and I find the fact that you can't even start to understand why anyone would have a problem with that comic, even if you don't agree, to be completely foreign to me. It almost seems sociopathic that you can't even think of one single reason why someone might have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it, but I can definitely see why someone would, and I can respect that hypothetical person enough to assume that whatever problem they have is a valid one for them, and that they are expressing their discontent in good faith. Do I wish people had a thicker skin? Sure. But just because they don't doesn't mean they don't deserve to voice their opinion when something bothers them. And seriously wanting them to leave this community, a community which actually has about as much to do with the PA comic as my local Gamestop does, is just ridiculous.
We're going in circles in this thread at this point. We already established that the view point I share, which I'm assuming Bowen also shares, is not that it's impossible to be offended by that comic. It's that that brand of humor is what we do around here. I don't want anyone's feelings to be hurt, so if they can't appreciate that kind of humor, it'd probably be best if they went and found something else more appealing to them, rather than shitting all over these forums.
And my last sentence illustrates that this is one of the few times the PA comic has even been mentioned on these forums (not counting the daily comic thread in SE) and asking people to leave because they disagree with it is just reactionary and wrong-headed.
But yes, we are going in circles and I do appreciate your point of view, this thread is hard to keep up with considering how fast it's moving, and the fact that it starts over every five pages or so.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Except no-one in here, absolutely no-one, has made the same arguments shakesville has on these forums. I've been paying attention, I'd have noticed. There has, however, been a whole lot of hysterical nonsense on the very opposite side of that coin. So really, who's doing the shitting?
Sleep time. I look forward to finding the thread tomorrow in exactly the same place, with different players, much like skipping a few seasons of Days of Our Lives.
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
The Isaac Hayes comment? He used to play Chef on South Park. He took part in the bashing of all sorts of weird topics. Suddenly a topic came up that played with something he liked and he threw a shit fit and left the show because of it. Similar because apparently these people were readers of Penny-Arcade and the thought of dickwovles raping NPCs in an MMO upset them for some reason. Maybe their parents were NPCs or quest designers who were tortured at night of the thought of these dickwolves, or something. Or they were looking for publicity and controversy and acted like, basically, giant assfaces. Penny-arcade is similar to South Park in that they both attack and broach a series of pretty untamed, definitely not PC, concepts.
They apparently have not read PA for long if they got upset by rape. Or Bestiality for that matter. No this wasn't about trigger words, this wasn't about rape, this was about a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do with their time than making internet controversy over a silly topic, that wasn't even the topic. It's like getting upset with your sugar cookies because they contain maltose instead of dextrose and that fucking upsets you because your mom was mugged by maltose and they're totally rubbing it in your face. Okay it's not, but still.
So yeah, I think I agree with darkwolfe here in hoping that they just take off. It doesn't really tell you much about his personality. If you think he's childish for wanting that, that's cool, it's your opinion but I think the original issue was infantile.
See, and I find the fact that you can't even start to understand why anyone would have a problem with that comic, even if you don't agree, to be completely foreign to me. It almost seems sociopathic that you can't even think of one single reason why someone might have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it, but I can definitely see why someone would, and I can respect that hypothetical person enough to assume that whatever problem they have is a valid one for them, and that they are expressing their discontent in good faith. Do I wish people had a thicker skin? Sure. But just because they don't doesn't mean they don't deserve to voice their opinion when something bothers them. And seriously wanting them to leave this community, a community which actually has about as much to do with the PA comic as my local Gamestop does, is just ridiculous.
I don't have a problem with it because it's not about rape. Period. End of story. I can see why someone could have a problem with it, if they lacked the ability to not jump in response to a single word. That's a pretty infantile thing, I don't drop a deuce in my pants when someone says "GUN" in a gun thread. There's context there. I'm sorry I don't have the patience to teach people how to act like rational beings, or rather, an adult.
They don't want to be set off by something like that? They probably shouldn't be reading comics where those types of topics are broached regularly and have already been broached in the past. If someone was mugged because they walked into a room full of muggers, I'd have a hard time rationalizing or not blaming them if they walked into the same room again and got mugged again. Similarly, a child touching a stove who keeps fucking touching it would get absolutely no sympathy from me.
They can voice their opinion, but I reserve the right to think they're a childish dicknugget for it.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
The Isaac Hayes comment? He used to play Chef on South Park. He took part in the bashing of all sorts of weird topics. Suddenly a topic came up that played with something he liked and he threw a shit fit and left the show because of it. Similar because apparently these people were readers of Penny-Arcade and the thought of dickwovles raping NPCs in an MMO upset them for some reason. Maybe their parents were NPCs or quest designers who were tortured at night of the thought of these dickwolves, or something. Or they were looking for publicity and controversy and acted like, basically, giant assfaces. Penny-arcade is similar to South Park in that they both attack and broach a series of pretty untamed, definitely not PC, concepts.
They apparently have not read PA for long if they got upset by rape. Or Bestiality for that matter. No this wasn't about trigger words, this wasn't about rape, this was about a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do with their time than making internet controversy over a silly topic, that wasn't even the topic. It's like getting upset with your sugar cookies because they contain maltose instead of dextrose and that fucking upsets you because your mom was mugged by maltose and they're totally rubbing it in your face. Okay it's not, but still.
So yeah, I think I agree with darkwolfe here in hoping that they just take off. It doesn't really tell you much about his personality. If you think he's childish for wanting that, that's cool, it's your opinion but I think the original issue was infantile.
See, and I find the fact that you can't even start to understand why anyone would have a problem with that comic, even if you don't agree, to be completely foreign to me. It almost seems sociopathic that you can't even think of one single reason why someone might have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it, but I can definitely see why someone would, and I can respect that hypothetical person enough to assume that whatever problem they have is a valid one for them, and that they are expressing their discontent in good faith. Do I wish people had a thicker skin? Sure. But just because they don't doesn't mean they don't deserve to voice their opinion when something bothers them. And seriously wanting them to leave this community, a community which actually has about as much to do with the PA comic as my local Gamestop does, is just ridiculous.
We're going in circles in this thread at this point. We already established that the view point I share, which I'm assuming Bowen also shares, is not that it's impossible to be offended by that comic. It's that that brand of humor is what we do around here. I don't want anyone's feelings to be hurt, so if they can't appreciate that kind of humor, it'd probably be best if they went and found something else more appealing to them, rather than shitting all over these forums.
But the controversy has absolutely nothing to do with the forums. You saying that people who don't enjoy the humor of the comic should leave the forums is the only thing that is currently making people who enjoy these forums but not necessarily the comic feel uncomfortable.
Kistra on
Animal Crossing: City Folk Lissa in Filmore 3179-9580-0076
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Deebaseron my way to work in a suit and a tieAhhhh...come on fucking guyRegistered Userregular
Except no-one in here, absolutely no-one, has made the same arguments shakesville has on these forums. I've been paying attention, I'd have noticed. There has, however, been a whole lot of hysterical nonsense on the very opposite side of that coin. So really, who's doing the shitting?
Sleep time. I look forward to finding the thread tomorrow in exactly the same place, with different players, much like skipping a few seasons of Days of Our Lives.
That is probably because, by and large, we aren't reactionary lunatics.
The same thing as a flying saucer, a Sasquatch or a ghost: an artifact of a delusion person who believes that they have some privileged access to secret information.
Never mind those damn declining crime & rape statistics - the statisticians are a bunch of lying men, afterall! It's all part of the vast global effort to keep females under bootheels!
None of these women have any clue how well off they are in the western world, which is pretty darn close to having closed the equality gap. I'd like to think that if they actually bothered to visit a place like Saudi Arabia or Uganda, they'd swiftly and quietly burn everything they ever wrote about 'rape culture' and never speak of it again.
"Rape culture" is a great boogie-man for feminists, because it means whatever they want it to mean when making a particular argument.
It's a concept that's impossible to actually discuss because no one can really define it in a meaningful way. And you should know by now that any crime or rape statistics will simply be handwaved away if they don't fit in to rape culture meme.
Modern Man on
Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
Rigorous Scholarship
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
The Isaac Hayes comment? He used to play Chef on South Park. He took part in the bashing of all sorts of weird topics. Suddenly a topic came up that played with something he liked and he threw a shit fit and left the show because of it. Similar because apparently these people were readers of Penny-Arcade and the thought of dickwovles raping NPCs in an MMO upset them for some reason. Maybe their parents were NPCs or quest designers who were tortured at night of the thought of these dickwolves, or something. Or they were looking for publicity and controversy and acted like, basically, giant assfaces. Penny-arcade is similar to South Park in that they both attack and broach a series of pretty untamed, definitely not PC, concepts.
They apparently have not read PA for long if they got upset by rape. Or Bestiality for that matter. No this wasn't about trigger words, this wasn't about rape, this was about a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do with their time than making internet controversy over a silly topic, that wasn't even the topic. It's like getting upset with your sugar cookies because they contain maltose instead of dextrose and that fucking upsets you because your mom was mugged by maltose and they're totally rubbing it in your face. Okay it's not, but still.
So yeah, I think I agree with darkwolfe here in hoping that they just take off. It doesn't really tell you much about his personality. If you think he's childish for wanting that, that's cool, it's your opinion but I think the original issue was infantile.
See, and I find the fact that you can't even start to understand why anyone would have a problem with that comic, even if you don't agree, to be completely foreign to me. It almost seems sociopathic that you can't even think of one single reason why someone might have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it, but I can definitely see why someone would, and I can respect that hypothetical person enough to assume that whatever problem they have is a valid one for them, and that they are expressing their discontent in good faith. Do I wish people had a thicker skin? Sure. But just because they don't doesn't mean they don't deserve to voice their opinion when something bothers them. And seriously wanting them to leave this community, a community which actually has about as much to do with the PA comic as my local Gamestop does, is just ridiculous.
I don't have a problem with it because it's not about rape. Period. End of story. I can see why someone could have a problem with it, if they lacked the ability to not jump in response to a single word. That's a pretty infantile thing, I don't drop a deuce in my pants when someone says "GUN" in a gun thread. There's context there. I'm sorry I don't have the patience to teach people how to act like rational beings, or rather, an adult.
They don't want to be set off by something like that? They probably shouldn't be reading comics where those types of topics are broached regularly and have already been broached in the past. If someone was mugged because they walked into a room full of muggers, I'd have a hard time rationalizing or not blaming them if they walked into the same room again and got mugged again. Similarly, a child touching a stove who keeps fucking touching it would get absolutely no sympathy from me.
They can voice their opinion, but I reserve the right to think they're a childish dicknugget for it.
Well, I mean saying it's not about rape is a tad disingenuous, and honestly anyone reading it who has never played an MMO before could probably easily get the impression that it actually is 100% about rape. Now that isn't Mike or Jerry's fault, but it is a foreseeable consequence. That's why when someone gets upset about the comic, even if they are shrill and psychotic about their being upset and call you a rape apologist, that's why you don't react like Mike did. You just say sorry you misinterpreted the comic, hope you find another web comic that suits you better. Then you drop it.
"Rape culture" is a great boogie-man for feminists, because it means whatever they want it to mean when making a particular argument.
It's a concept that's impossible to actually discuss because no one can really define it in a meaningful way. And you should know by now that any crime or rape statistics will simply be handwaved away if they don't fit in to rape culture meme.
To be fair, you can say that about almost any concept in social science. As long as people are arguing in good faith and not moving the goal posts, there's no reason it really needs an exact definition to be used in an argument.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
What's interesting to me is that you cast those who agree with Zafrod--like myself, presumably--as "offended", and having a "source of outrage". Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see much in the way of offence or outrage coming from this camp. Disappointment, sure. Maybe that exists on a continuum with offence and outrage further down the line. Maybe we differ on where the line is drawn, but I have seen more even-handed, conciliatory posts from people who appear to think that there may be some merit to the notion that the second comic might be problematic to some people.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
What still gets me is my exchange with Darkwolfe like 20 pages back.
Darkwolfe: I hope all of you who don't like the response comic leave Penny Arcade in a huff.
Me: Well, that says a lot about the kind of personality you have.
Darkwolfe: You can't infer anything about my personality from my post!
What? Are people really this dense and disconnected?
That's some serious reductionism right there. Let's try my translation.
Darkewolfe: Lots of people have threatened to leave over this. If the choice is between throwing out this entire brand of humor or losing those people, I hope they leave in a huff.
Drez: I can tell I wouldn't like you from the personality you exhibit in that post.
Darkewolfe: Well, you can certainly tell that I'm angry about the ridiculous responses that have come out of this crowd.
Followed by me explaining what I think the phrase rape culture, in American society, should mean, (as opposed to anywhere that has a REAL rape culture), and why I think we should do more to help rape victims.
The only thing you can tell, Drez, is that I don't seem to like you. And if you engage in this sort of petulant flamebaiting over perceived hostility from entertainers who have no actual gripe with you, then I probably don't.
I haven't seen a single person threaten to leave over this, so maybe your entire premise is built upon the same adolescent fantasy that leads you to wish them away from the community?
I have seen people stating they might sit out of PAX as a result of this, which is not the same thing as "leaving the community," but I haven't seen anyone here suggest that they are going to stop posting on the PA forums, or stop reading PA, except some bloggers who don't seem to post on the forums and aren't really a part of the forums anyway. I would argue that they aren't even a part of the community.
And I think you're intelligent to have realized all this. So the people you and bowen are really wishing away are people that didn't like the comic and wish to voice their opinion about it. These aren't people that have threatened to leave, these are people you just want to go away, or as bowen put it, to "shut up." Also, that false dichotomy you constructed - that it's either lose comics of this sort or lose those people - is, as I said, false. Mike and Jerry don't really give a damn what anyone thinks anyway, insofar as the comic itself goes. They stated that much. So this is just your petulant wish to shape the community so you don't have to listen to people who disagree with you.
Except no-one in here, absolutely no-one, has made the same arguments shakesville has on these forums. I've been paying attention, I'd have noticed. There has, however, been a whole lot of hysterical nonsense on the very opposite side of that coin. So really, who's doing the shitting?
Sleep time. I look forward to finding the thread tomorrow in exactly the same place, with different players, much like skipping a few seasons of Days of Our Lives.
That is probably because, by and large, we aren't reactionary lunatics.
This isn't helpful language.
I understand what you're trying to say, but reactions like this are why this thread exists.
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
The Isaac Hayes comment? He used to play Chef on South Park. He took part in the bashing of all sorts of weird topics. Suddenly a topic came up that played with something he liked and he threw a shit fit and left the show because of it. Similar because apparently these people were readers of Penny-Arcade and the thought of dickwovles raping NPCs in an MMO upset them for some reason. Maybe their parents were NPCs or quest designers who were tortured at night of the thought of these dickwolves, or something. Or they were looking for publicity and controversy and acted like, basically, giant assfaces. Penny-arcade is similar to South Park in that they both attack and broach a series of pretty untamed, definitely not PC, concepts.
They apparently have not read PA for long if they got upset by rape. Or Bestiality for that matter. No this wasn't about trigger words, this wasn't about rape, this was about a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do with their time than making internet controversy over a silly topic, that wasn't even the topic. It's like getting upset with your sugar cookies because they contain maltose instead of dextrose and that fucking upsets you because your mom was mugged by maltose and they're totally rubbing it in your face. Okay it's not, but still.
So yeah, I think I agree with darkwolfe here in hoping that they just take off. It doesn't really tell you much about his personality. If you think he's childish for wanting that, that's cool, it's your opinion but I think the original issue was infantile.
See, and I find the fact that you can't even start to understand why anyone would have a problem with that comic, even if you don't agree, to be completely foreign to me. It almost seems sociopathic that you can't even think of one single reason why someone might have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it, but I can definitely see why someone would, and I can respect that hypothetical person enough to assume that whatever problem they have is a valid one for them, and that they are expressing their discontent in good faith. Do I wish people had a thicker skin? Sure. But just because they don't doesn't mean they don't deserve to voice their opinion when something bothers them. And seriously wanting them to leave this community, a community which actually has about as much to do with the PA comic as my local Gamestop does, is just ridiculous.
I don't have a problem with it because it's not about rape. Period. End of story. I can see why someone could have a problem with it, if they lacked the ability to not jump in response to a single word. That's a pretty infantile thing, I don't drop a deuce in my pants when someone says "GUN" in a gun thread. There's context there. I'm sorry I don't have the patience to teach people how to act like rational beings, or rather, an adult.
They don't want to be set off by something like that? They probably shouldn't be reading comics where those types of topics are broached regularly and have already been broached in the past. If someone was mugged because they walked into a room full of muggers, I'd have a hard time rationalizing or not blaming them if they walked into the same room again and got mugged again. Similarly, a child touching a stove who keeps fucking touching it would get absolutely no sympathy from me.
They can voice their opinion, but I reserve the right to think they're a childish dicknugget for it.
Well, I mean saying it's not about rape is a tad disingenuous, and honestly anyone reading it who has never played an MMO before could probably easily get the impression that it actually is 100% about rape. Now that isn't Mike or Jerry's fault, but it is a foreseeable consequence. That's why when someone gets upset about the comic, even if they are shrill and psychotic about their being upset and call you a rape apologist, that's why you don't react like Mike did. You just say sorry you interpreted the comic, hope you find another web comic that suits you better. Then you drop it.
Right, I think we can agree there.
Though I have to say, even if I didn't play MMOs I could see it as an allegory. But then again, I paid attention in English class for the most part so it's pretty easy to distinguish that when someone says "Your face is but a rose" they're not being literal. Comes with the whole critical thinking part of being an adult and not acting petulant because of things.
Though if I was adamant about "rape culture," whatever that is, I'd probably act the same way. But then if I was really offended by something, I wouldn't take part in it either. I wouldn't subject myself and let my PTSD flare up because I took the risk knowing that rape may, one day, be the theme of a joke. Again.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
What's interesting to me is that you cast those who agree with Zafrod--like myself, presumably--as "offended", and having a "source of outrage". Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see much in the way of offence or outrage coming from this camp. Disappointment, sure. Maybe that exists on a continuum with offence and outrage further down the line. Maybe we differ on where the line is drawn, but I have seen more even-handed, conciliatory posts from people who appear to think that there may be some merit to the notion that the second comic might be problematic to some people.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
What still gets me is my exchange with Darkwolfe like 20 pages back.
Darkwolfe: I hope all of you who don't like the response comic leave Penny Arcade in a huff.
Me: Well, that says a lot about the kind of personality you have.
Darkwolfe: You can't infer anything about my personality from my post!
What? Are people really this dense and disconnected?
That's some serious reductionism right there. Let's try my translation.
Darkewolfe: Lots of people have threatened to leave over this. If the choice is between throwing out this entire brand of humor or losing those people, I hope they leave in a huff.
Drez: I can tell I wouldn't like you from the personality you exhibit in that post.
Darkewolfe: Well, you can certainly tell that I'm angry about the ridiculous responses that have come out of this crowd.
Followed by me explaining what I think the phrase rape culture, in American society, should mean, (as opposed to anywhere that has a REAL rape culture), and why I think we should do more to help rape victims.
The only thing you can tell, Drez, is that I don't seem to like you. And if you engage in this sort of petulant flamebaiting over perceived hostility from entertainers who have no actual gripe with you, then I probably don't.
I haven't seen a single person threaten to leave over this, so maybe your entire premise is built upon the same adolescent fantasy that leads you to wish them away from the community?
I have seen people stating they might sit out of PAX as a result of this, which is not the same thing as "leaving the community," but I haven't seen anyone here suggest that they are going to stop posting on the PA forums, or stop reading PA, except some bloggers who don't seem to post on the forums and aren't really a part of the forums anyway. I would argue that they aren't even a part of the community.
And I think you're intelligent to have realized all this. So the people you and bowen are really wishing away are people that didn't like the comic and wish to voice their opinion about it. These aren't people that have threatened to leave, these are people you just want to go away, or as bowen put it, to "shut up." Also, that false dichotomy you constructed - that it's either lose comics of this sort or lose those people - is, as I said, false. Mike and Jerry don't really give a damn what anyone thinks anyway. They stated that much. So this is just your petulant wish to shape the community so you don't have to listen to people who disagree with you.
Which is, as I said and maintain, childish.
I actually made the comment right after I read where someone posted an "I'm leaving the forums, goodbye" post. It may have been in one of the other threads, however. I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple people threatening to leave the community, or posting things like, "I'm not comfortable in this community." I'm not wishing anyone away; it was actually a direct response to people leaving/threatening to leave/hinting at leaving.
In another conversation earlier on, someone mentioned a girlfriend who would be very uncomfortable with rape jokes. He asked whether I'd say she wasn't welcome. I responded that I'd want her to welcome, but I also wouldn't want to feel responsible for her discomfort, so if she wasn't able to participate in a community built on that kind of humor, I didn't think it was the place for her.
That said, there are in fact people who agree with Zafrod's interpretation; quite a lot, indeed! And these people are offended because they are incapable of seeing the fault in their source of outrage- the actual literal intent of the original strip. The secondary, and perhaps worst part, is they can't see that the response would be reasonable.
What's interesting to me is that you cast those who agree with Zafrod--like myself, presumably--as "offended", and having a "source of outrage". Now, I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I don't see much in the way of offence or outrage coming from this camp. Disappointment, sure. Maybe that exists on a continuum with offence and outrage further down the line. Maybe we differ on where the line is drawn, but I have seen more even-handed, conciliatory posts from people who appear to think that there may be some merit to the notion that the second comic might be problematic to some people.
Seriously. Attempting to paint people who disagree with the response comic and shirt as psychos doesn't do anyone any favours. I reserve my seething rage not for Mike and Jerry at all, but for the people coming in here and using terrible, horrible arguments while being complete dicks to the people they cast as 'the enemy'. If you can't defend the original comic without resorting to the exact kind of denial the concept of rape culture is designed to expose and fight, you've failed from the start.
And there's a special hell for those of you who are acting precious about the concept's name. If we called it fluffy-bunny culture, it'd still have the exact same implications. Try and engage with the topic like grownups, please.
What still gets me is my exchange with Darkwolfe like 20 pages back.
Darkwolfe: I hope all of you who don't like the response comic leave Penny Arcade in a huff.
Me: Well, that says a lot about the kind of personality you have.
Darkwolfe: You can't infer anything about my personality from my post!
What? Are people really this dense and disconnected?
That's some serious reductionism right there. Let's try my translation.
Darkewolfe: Lots of people have threatened to leave over this. If the choice is between throwing out this entire brand of humor or losing those people, I hope they leave in a huff.
Drez: I can tell I wouldn't like you from the personality you exhibit in that post.
Darkewolfe: Well, you can certainly tell that I'm angry about the ridiculous responses that have come out of this crowd.
Followed by me explaining what I think the phrase rape culture, in American society, should mean, (as opposed to anywhere that has a REAL rape culture), and why I think we should do more to help rape victims.
The only thing you can tell, Drez, is that I don't seem to like you. And if you engage in this sort of petulant flamebaiting over perceived hostility from entertainers who have no actual gripe with you, then I probably don't.
I haven't seen a single person threaten to leave over this, so maybe your entire premise is built upon the same adolescent fantasy that leads you to wish them away from the community?
I have seen people stating they might sit out of PAX as a result of this, which is not the same thing as "leaving the community," but I haven't seen anyone here suggest that they are going to stop posting on the PA forums, or stop reading PA, except some bloggers who don't seem to post on the forums and aren't really a part of the forums anyway. I would argue that they aren't even a part of the community.
And I think you're intelligent to have realized all this. So the people you and bowen are really wishing away are people that didn't like the comic and wish to voice their opinion about it. These aren't people that have threatened to leave, these are people you just want to go away, or as bowen put it, to "shut up." Also, that false dichotomy you constructed - that it's either lose comics of this sort or lose those people - is, as I said, false. Mike and Jerry don't really give a damn what anyone thinks anyway, insofar as the comic itself goes. They stated that much. So this is just your petulant wish to shape the community so you don't have to listen to people who disagree with you.
Which is, as I said and maintain, childish.
I could have sworn I've seen a few bloggers auction their stuff off and claim they were down with PA. Which is good, that's what you should do if something offends you. You shouldn't start a post war and continue sticking your proverbial hand on the proverbial hot stove.
bowen on
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Since we're retreading old ground, here's something I had to say while everyone was asleep.
How is it not censorship? "This offends me. Remove it."
Again, I'd suggest that this isn't a debate with Shakes. Having had the chance to read back in the thread, it's strange to get the impression that some believe the "Dickwolves Controversy" has anything to do with a frenzied minority accusing Mike of being a rape apologist . (Tho' the fucknoPA tumblr is pretty entertaining in it's insanity)
Ignore Shakes. The women/progressive gamers who are making this content go viral don't believe all men are rapists. They do have a sense of humour and they do enjoy reading Penny Arcade. They probably didn't give a fuck about the original comic. They do care about the response from T&G , the atmosphere at PAX, and gamer culture as a whole.
Melissa McEwan won't be and will never be at PAX. So... ignore... Shakesville.
The Federal Government does not care if Penny Arcade sells a Dickwolf t-shirt. Mike and Jerry care about PAX, and they chose to take it down from the store.
"So let's talk about t-shirts.
It is worth talking about how my wearing a Dickwolves t-shirt might affect the community at PAX. I have the right to wear what I like. I also have the right to be a dick(wolf?). It's worth talking about when to exercise these rights.
"It's nice to have the privilege to wear, for the most part, what I like when I like. Not everyone has that same privilege. And it's no surprise your average geek feminist might observe that some women can't wear what they like when they like; sometimes, if a woman dresses or behaves "wrong" it's "her fault" if she gets raped - 'she was asking for it'."
Um, that came out of left field
Breakdown:
(1) I have the privilege to wear what I like
(2) This privilege is not universal
(3) Example relevant to the issue at hand
Implication: My focus on excercising said privilege might be construed as insensitive given the issue at hand.
Possible Argument:
ME: The most important issue here is my right to act as I like (wear my dickwolves t-shirt)
FEMINIST CRITIC: Your t-shirt reflects a culture that assumes some people ought not to act as they like (lest they be legitimate targets of sexual aggression). If you value your right, you ought not to promote a culture that makes it difficult for others to claim the same right.
The point here is to suggest that the debate isn't about Meany Melissa poo-pooing on our precious t-shirt. Instead, it's debate between gamers about gamer culture. As for /b/ ...
Pause while wife goes and makes me a sammich.
How am I a /b/tard simply for feeling that a free webcomic has the right to sell a shirt?
You aren't - for feeling that a free webcomic has the right to sell a shirt. You might be perceived as one for strutting around PAX all "herderp Dickwolves!"
I don't really know what that says about his personality other than he doesn't like people that don't share his opinions.
And you don't think that says a lot about someone's personality, for someone to wish all the people who disagree with your perspective on humor out of the community? The most mild word I could come up with here is "childish," but I think it goes well beyond that. I think it speaks volumes.
Maybe, I guess. It doesn't really bother me what they do, I personally would just wish they shut up and move on with their lives and stop acting like Isaac Hayes.
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
The Isaac Hayes comment? He used to play Chef on South Park. He took part in the bashing of all sorts of weird topics. Suddenly a topic came up that played with something he liked and he threw a shit fit and left the show because of it. Similar because apparently these people were readers of Penny-Arcade and the thought of dickwovles raping NPCs in an MMO upset them for some reason. Maybe their parents were NPCs or quest designers who were tortured at night of the thought of these dickwolves, or something. Or they were looking for publicity and controversy and acted like, basically, giant assfaces. Penny-arcade is similar to South Park in that they both attack and broach a series of pretty untamed, definitely not PC, concepts.
They apparently have not read PA for long if they got upset by rape. Or Bestiality for that matter. No this wasn't about trigger words, this wasn't about rape, this was about a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do with their time than making internet controversy over a silly topic, that wasn't even the topic. It's like getting upset with your sugar cookies because they contain maltose instead of dextrose and that fucking upsets you because your mom was mugged by maltose and they're totally rubbing it in your face. Okay it's not, but still.
So yeah, I think I agree with darkwolfe here in hoping that they just take off. It doesn't really tell you much about his personality. If you think he's childish for wanting that, that's cool, it's your opinion but I think the original issue was infantile.
See, and I find the fact that you can't even start to understand why anyone would have a problem with that comic, even if you don't agree, to be completely foreign to me. It almost seems sociopathic that you can't even think of one single reason why someone might have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it, but I can definitely see why someone would, and I can respect that hypothetical person enough to assume that whatever problem they have is a valid one for them, and that they are expressing their discontent in good faith. Do I wish people had a thicker skin? Sure. But just because they don't doesn't mean they don't deserve to voice their opinion when something bothers them. And seriously wanting them to leave this community, a community which actually has about as much to do with the PA comic as my local Gamestop does, is just ridiculous.
I don't have a problem with it because it's not about rape. Period. End of story. I can see why someone could have a problem with it, if they lacked the ability to not jump in response to a single word. That's a pretty infantile thing, I don't drop a deuce in my pants when someone says "GUN" in a gun thread. There's context there. I'm sorry I don't have the patience to teach people how to act like rational beings, or rather, an adult.
They don't want to be set off by something like that? They probably shouldn't be reading comics where those types of topics are broached regularly and have already been broached in the past. If someone was mugged because they walked into a room full of muggers, I'd have a hard time rationalizing or not blaming them if they walked into the same room again and got mugged again. Similarly, a child touching a stove who keeps fucking touching it would get absolutely no sympathy from me.
They can voice their opinion, but I reserve the right to think they're a childish dicknugget for it.
Well, I mean saying it's not about rape is a tad disingenuous, and honestly anyone reading it who has never played an MMO before could probably easily get the impression that it actually is 100% about rape. Now that isn't Mike or Jerry's fault, but it is a foreseeable consequence. That's why when someone gets upset about the comic, even if they are shrill and psychotic about their being upset and call you a rape apologist, that's why you don't react like Mike did. You just say sorry you interpreted the comic, hope you find another web comic that suits you better. Then you drop it.
Right, I think we can agree there.
Though I have to say, even if I didn't play MMOs I could see it as an allegory. But then again, I paid attention in English class for the most part so it's pretty easy to distinguish that when someone says "Your face is but a rose" they're not being literal. Comes with the whole critical thinking part of being an adult and not acting petulant because of things.
Though if I was adamant about "rape culture," whatever that is, I'd probably act the same way. But then if I was really offended by something, I wouldn't take part in it either. I wouldn't subject myself and let my PTSD flare up because I took the risk knowing that rape may, one day, be the theme of a joke. Again.
Right, and again neither would I. But I hang around with a lot of activists and they firmly believe that if there's something they perceive as "wrong" they have to go in guns blazing and right that wrong. They very much take social justice to heart. And believe me, it's fucking annoying and reactionary, and they all use that Ghandi quote "you must be the change you wish to see in the world" as their email signature. But they also mean well, and I don't get upset when they invariably jump on the wrong target, I just try and reason with them. Of course, doing this in person is much easier then over the internet, but fighting crazy reactionaries with a crazy reaction is just a bad idea. Especially when one side can EASILY out crazy you.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
"Rape culture" is a great boogie-man for feminists, because it means whatever they want it to mean when making a particular argument.
It's a concept that's impossible to actually discuss because no one can really define it in a meaningful way. And you should know by now that any crime or rape statistics will simply be handwaved away if they don't fit in to rape culture meme.
To be fair, you can say that about almost any concept in social science. As long as people are arguing in good faith and not moving the goal posts, there's no reason it really needs an exact definition to be used in an argument.
I think we have firmly established that the people most loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" are not arguing in good faith.
If it makes you feel better, they're only accidentally trying to change how rape is perceived as a casualty of attacking people seeking abortions. You know, just accidentally trampling on some people's rights while trying to damage other people's autonomy.
"Rape culture" is a great boogie-man for feminists, because it means whatever they want it to mean when making a particular argument.
It's a concept that's impossible to actually discuss because no one can really define it in a meaningful way. And you should know by now that any crime or rape statistics will simply be handwaved away if they don't fit in to rape culture meme.
To be fair, you can say that about almost any concept in social science. As long as people are arguing in good faith and not moving the goal posts, there's no reason it really needs an exact definition to be used in an argument.
I think we have firmly established that the people most loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" are not arguing in good faith.
Right, but that doesn't say anything about the concept of rape culture. For example, I haven't seen a lot of people in THIS thread arguing in bad faith about it, despite the fact that the argument extends from a website that is arguing in bad faith.
Sentry on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
wrote:
When I was a little kid, I always pretended I was the hero,' Skip said.
'Fuck yeah, me too. What little kid ever pretended to be part of the lynch-mob?'
Posts
I agree with you, that's a real thing, and in that instance it would be the fault of the person. You'll find an equivalent sort of ignorance in any argument, though, and they never comprise the entirety of the opposition.
To be honest, as I'm typing this, I sort of see a parallel to the this whole dickwolf thing (+1 ON-TOPIC COMBO). It rapidly becomes a situation where one side felt attacked, so they go on the offensive, to which there is a response in kind, and then it becomes an entrenched verbal knife-fight that shoots so far past the point that you'd have to send it post-cards to keep in touch.
I'm not going to argue with your experiences. You've probably participated in more thread about it here than I've read. If there's one thing to take from this whole situation, though, it's probably that it isn't that hard for someone to feel attacked by something that wasn't attacking them, and things can rapidly spiral out of control from there.
( imperfect analogy to the situation, I know, but I'm not one to let historical details get in the way of TRU-HUMANFACTZ(c) and a TOUCHING MORAL(c) )
I don't even know what that means. The bottom line is: I don't wish people like Darkwolfe out of the community, even though he was being a silly goose. People that like the response comic have a place in the community. People that hated it have a place in the community. And people totally indifferent to all of this have a place in the community. Anyone suggesting otherwise is a dumbface.
I really don't want to get anecdotal here, but when I first heard "Rape Culture", I was immediately tossing the entire idea out the window, and wondering how many crackpots actually thought that there was a large sect of society who wants to rape people.
Yes, the terminology is fucking terrible for conveying the point.
Will you get some people that still won't get it? Of course you will. But I would be willing to believe the number would be a lot lower if it wasn't wrapped up in a term that is inherently pointing a finger at everyone and saying, "Rapist".
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2010-08-04/news/bs-md-ci-rape-review-update-20100803_1_review-police-department-reports
The rest of your post is such a horrible strawman it just doesn't deserve to be responded to.
I actually don't understand how someone could construe "you are contributing to rape culture" as "you are a rapist" or "you want to rape." I honestly don't understand that leap. If someone really wanted to accuse someone of rapist tendencies, why would they use a euphemism?
Sure. I have a harder time ascribing such genuine motives to many of the reactions that pop up in those threads, but some of them have to be actually confused...
I may get some interesting responses to this, but part of the problem is that we're talking at least partly about subtle societal influences, and on an american-dominated board, it doesn't go well. In such a strongly individualistic culture, the thought of being shaped by such forces ty all seems to really piss some people off. Doesn't just happen in gender threads, but any topic that talks about society and culture gets a handful of very angry people who just don't want social influences to be real at all.
The Isaac Hayes comment? He used to play Chef on South Park. He took part in the bashing of all sorts of weird topics. Suddenly a topic came up that played with something he liked and he threw a shit fit and left the show because of it. Similar because apparently these people were readers of Penny-Arcade and the thought of dickwovles raping NPCs in an MMO upset them for some reason. Maybe their parents were NPCs or quest designers who were tortured at night of the thought of these dickwolves, or something. Or they were looking for publicity and controversy and acted like, basically, giant assfaces. Penny-arcade is similar to South Park in that they both attack and broach a series of pretty untamed, definitely not PC, concepts.
They apparently have not read PA for long if they got upset by rape. Or Bestiality for that matter. No this wasn't about trigger words, this wasn't about rape, this was about a bunch of assholes with nothing better to do with their time than making internet controversy over a silly topic, that wasn't even the topic. It's like getting upset with your sugar cookies because they contain maltose instead of dextrose and that fucking upsets you because your mom was mugged by maltose and they're totally rubbing it in your face. Okay it's not, but still.
So yeah, I think I agree with darkwolfe here in hoping that they just take off. It doesn't really tell you much about his personality. If you think he's childish for wanting that, that's cool, it's your opinion but I think the original issue was infantile.
McEwan is on record for this fiasco as calling anyone who makes rape jokes a rape apologist. She is also on the record for calling people who voice a differing opinion as equivalent to a a rapist.
McEwan is relevant because she was there in the beginning manufacturing this faux outrage, and she continues to stoke the flames.
Well...yes. That is a problem I've seen here and it is a problem from the most liberal liberals to the most conservative conservatives. The entitlement complex of "I am me, I have a right to say and think and do what I want; fuck off" is gallingly apparent here, especially in New York. Hell, I engage in it myself, fairly often, though I try to be aware of it and try not to. I think most people either aren't aware of it, or don't want to be aware of it lest they be burdened by the responsibility of trying not to act or think that way.
It isn't inherent at all. I'm sorry, but the bottom line is that if you can't even take the time to type the phrase into google without getting all het up, the problem isn't the phrase.
That's some serious reductionism right there. Let's try my translation.
Darkewolfe: Lots of people have threatened to leave over this. If the choice is between throwing out this entire brand of humor or losing those people, I hope they leave in a huff.
Drez: I can tell I wouldn't like you from the personality you exhibit in that post.
Darkewolfe: Well, you can certainly tell that I'm angry about the ridiculous responses that have come out of this crowd.
Followed by me explaining what I think the phrase rape culture, in American society, should mean, (as opposed to anywhere that has a REAL rape culture), and why I think we should do more to help rape victims.
The only thing you can tell, Drez, is that I don't seem to like you. And if you engage in this sort of petulant flamebaiting over perceived hostility from entertainers who have no actual gripe with you, then I probably don't.
I still have no concise picture of what rape culture is supposed to be given that I've read about 20 different interpretations, but I can see how one would see the parallels, and given the reaction to Jack Thompson and his ilk, the "us vs. them" mentality isn't really surprising.
People believe that dressing "sexily" increases the odds of being raped. When asked, a person might explain this with the belief that rape is about sex and "provoking" sexual desire increases the likelihood of rape. But it is a myth that rape is about sex (most rapists have access to a sexual partner). Restricting our attention to men who rape women, this explanation also invokes the all to common myth that men are compelled to express sexual desire with violence.
SkyGheNe's example describes someone who does something risky and is blamed for being victimized.
A better example would describe someone who goes about her day to day life, is victimized, is blamed for being victimized, and then has the whole ordeal explained away by folk psychology. The perpetrator is then excused with a second dose of the same.
Indeed. It strikes me as a very simplistic term, because it puts, say, committing rape and telling a rape joke on the same continuum, and suggests that there is a direct connection between them, and that the people who engage in those activities are the same on some fundamental level. I don't think that's even slightly true.
PSN: GetMediaeval
But when I first heard the term I instantly knew exactly what it was referring to and thought it was pretty brilliant shorthand because it got its meaning across so well. So I just don't understand all the anger against the name. And a bunch of posters just keep saying it is inflammatory and how you all thought it meant something very different than it does like it is obvious why you think that. Could you explain?
See, and I find the fact that you can't even start to understand why anyone would have a problem with that comic, even if you don't agree, to be completely foreign to me. It almost seems sociopathic that you can't even think of one single reason why someone might have a problem with it. I don't have a problem with it, but I can definitely see why someone would, and I can respect that hypothetical person enough to assume that whatever problem they have is a valid one for them, and that they are expressing their discontent in good faith. Do I wish people had a thicker skin? Sure. But just because they don't doesn't mean they don't deserve to voice their opinion when something bothers them. And seriously wanting them to leave this community, a community which actually has about as much to do with the PA comic as my local Gamestop does, is just ridiculous.
I've been thinking much the same, and I think that line of thought is what fuelled the responses from G&T that everyone is up in arms about. The accusations seemed so off base to them that they couldn't be bothered to take it seriously.
I was under the impression that rape was almost never about sex and almost always about power. Even between women->men rape.
Which is the problem. Mike underestimated who was watching him. He fired a salvo at "the crazies" and unfortunately offended the larger group of rape survivors/feminists/etc. etc.
I would probably guess after his remarks on twitter and the escalation, he realized this, and that's why he's shut himself up, which is probably the best thing he could've done for the time being.
We're going in circles in this thread at this point. We already established that the view point I share, which I'm assuming Bowen also shares, is not that it's impossible to be offended by that comic. It's that that brand of humor is what we do around here. I don't want anyone's feelings to be hurt, so if they can't appreciate that kind of humor, it'd probably be best if they went and found something else more appealing to them, rather than shitting all over these forums.
Rape is always about establishing power and domination on some level. However, it is disingenous to say that, in all cases, it is not about sex or sexual desire. Certainly, there are lots of cases where it isn't, as in the 90 year-old grandmother who gets raped or the new prisoner who gets raped. In some cases, though, it is plainly about sex. A man wants to have sex with a woman; she refuses to consent; he continues anyway and rapes her. Admittedly, that is about him expressing his right to have access to her, and his dominance over her; however, it's also about him wanting to have sex with her.
PSN: GetMediaeval
And my last sentence illustrates that this is one of the few times the PA comic has even been mentioned on these forums (not counting the daily comic thread in SE) and asking people to leave because they disagree with it is just reactionary and wrong-headed.
But yes, we are going in circles and I do appreciate your point of view, this thread is hard to keep up with considering how fast it's moving, and the fact that it starts over every five pages or so.
Sleep time. I look forward to finding the thread tomorrow in exactly the same place, with different players, much like skipping a few seasons of Days of Our Lives.
I don't have a problem with it because it's not about rape. Period. End of story. I can see why someone could have a problem with it, if they lacked the ability to not jump in response to a single word. That's a pretty infantile thing, I don't drop a deuce in my pants when someone says "GUN" in a gun thread. There's context there. I'm sorry I don't have the patience to teach people how to act like rational beings, or rather, an adult.
They don't want to be set off by something like that? They probably shouldn't be reading comics where those types of topics are broached regularly and have already been broached in the past. If someone was mugged because they walked into a room full of muggers, I'd have a hard time rationalizing or not blaming them if they walked into the same room again and got mugged again. Similarly, a child touching a stove who keeps fucking touching it would get absolutely no sympathy from me.
They can voice their opinion, but I reserve the right to think they're a childish dicknugget for it.
But the controversy has absolutely nothing to do with the forums. You saying that people who don't enjoy the humor of the comic should leave the forums is the only thing that is currently making people who enjoy these forums but not necessarily the comic feel uncomfortable.
That is probably because, by and large, we aren't reactionary lunatics.
It's a concept that's impossible to actually discuss because no one can really define it in a meaningful way. And you should know by now that any crime or rape statistics will simply be handwaved away if they don't fit in to rape culture meme.
Rigorous Scholarship
Well, I mean saying it's not about rape is a tad disingenuous, and honestly anyone reading it who has never played an MMO before could probably easily get the impression that it actually is 100% about rape. Now that isn't Mike or Jerry's fault, but it is a foreseeable consequence. That's why when someone gets upset about the comic, even if they are shrill and psychotic about their being upset and call you a rape apologist, that's why you don't react like Mike did. You just say sorry you misinterpreted the comic, hope you find another web comic that suits you better. Then you drop it.
To be fair, you can say that about almost any concept in social science. As long as people are arguing in good faith and not moving the goal posts, there's no reason it really needs an exact definition to be used in an argument.
I haven't seen a single person threaten to leave over this, so maybe your entire premise is built upon the same adolescent fantasy that leads you to wish them away from the community?
I have seen people stating they might sit out of PAX as a result of this, which is not the same thing as "leaving the community," but I haven't seen anyone here suggest that they are going to stop posting on the PA forums, or stop reading PA, except some bloggers who don't seem to post on the forums and aren't really a part of the forums anyway. I would argue that they aren't even a part of the community.
And I think you're intelligent to have realized all this. So the people you and bowen are really wishing away are people that didn't like the comic and wish to voice their opinion about it. These aren't people that have threatened to leave, these are people you just want to go away, or as bowen put it, to "shut up." Also, that false dichotomy you constructed - that it's either lose comics of this sort or lose those people - is, as I said, false. Mike and Jerry don't really give a damn what anyone thinks anyway, insofar as the comic itself goes. They stated that much. So this is just your petulant wish to shape the community so you don't have to listen to people who disagree with you.
Which is, as I said and maintain, childish.
This isn't helpful language.
I understand what you're trying to say, but reactions like this are why this thread exists.
Right, I think we can agree there.
Though I have to say, even if I didn't play MMOs I could see it as an allegory. But then again, I paid attention in English class for the most part so it's pretty easy to distinguish that when someone says "Your face is but a rose" they're not being literal. Comes with the whole critical thinking part of being an adult and not acting petulant because of things.
Though if I was adamant about "rape culture," whatever that is, I'd probably act the same way. But then if I was really offended by something, I wouldn't take part in it either. I wouldn't subject myself and let my PTSD flare up because I took the risk knowing that rape may, one day, be the theme of a joke. Again.
I actually made the comment right after I read where someone posted an "I'm leaving the forums, goodbye" post. It may have been in one of the other threads, however. I'm pretty sure I've seen a couple people threatening to leave the community, or posting things like, "I'm not comfortable in this community." I'm not wishing anyone away; it was actually a direct response to people leaving/threatening to leave/hinting at leaving.
In another conversation earlier on, someone mentioned a girlfriend who would be very uncomfortable with rape jokes. He asked whether I'd say she wasn't welcome. I responded that I'd want her to welcome, but I also wouldn't want to feel responsible for her discomfort, so if she wasn't able to participate in a community built on that kind of humor, I didn't think it was the place for her.
I'm not actively wishing anyone away.
Then how about the Republicans, representatives of a major portion of America, wanting to legally change the definition of what rape is?
I could have sworn I've seen a few bloggers auction their stuff off and claim they were down with PA. Which is good, that's what you should do if something offends you. You shouldn't start a post war and continue sticking your proverbial hand on the proverbial hot stove.
Again, I'd suggest that this isn't a debate with Shakes. Having had the chance to read back in the thread, it's strange to get the impression that some believe the "Dickwolves Controversy" has anything to do with a frenzied minority accusing Mike of being a rape apologist . (Tho' the fucknoPA tumblr is pretty entertaining in it's insanity)
Ignore Shakes. The women/progressive gamers who are making this content go viral don't believe all men are rapists. They do have a sense of humour and they do enjoy reading Penny Arcade. They probably didn't give a fuck about the original comic. They do care about the response from T&G , the atmosphere at PAX, and gamer culture as a whole.
Melissa McEwan won't be and will never be at PAX. So... ignore... Shakesville.
The Federal Government does not care if Penny Arcade sells a Dickwolf t-shirt. Mike and Jerry care about PAX, and they chose to take it down from the store.
It is worth talking about how my wearing a Dickwolves t-shirt might affect the community at PAX. I have the right to wear what I like. I also have the right to be a dick(wolf?). It's worth talking about when to exercise these rights.
Breakdown:
(1) I have the privilege to wear what I like
(2) This privilege is not universal
(3) Example relevant to the issue at hand
Implication: My focus on excercising said privilege might be construed as insensitive given the issue at hand.
Possible Argument:
ME: The most important issue here is my right to act as I like (wear my dickwolves t-shirt)
FEMINIST CRITIC: Your t-shirt reflects a culture that assumes some people ought not to act as they like (lest they be legitimate targets of sexual aggression). If you value your right, you ought not to promote a culture that makes it difficult for others to claim the same right.
The point here is to suggest that the debate isn't about Meany Melissa poo-pooing on our precious t-shirt. Instead, it's debate between gamers about gamer culture. As for /b/ ...
Pause while wife goes and makes me a sammich.
You aren't - for feeling that a free webcomic has the right to sell a shirt. You might be perceived as one for strutting around PAX all "herderp Dickwolves!"
Right, and again neither would I. But I hang around with a lot of activists and they firmly believe that if there's something they perceive as "wrong" they have to go in guns blazing and right that wrong. They very much take social justice to heart. And believe me, it's fucking annoying and reactionary, and they all use that Ghandi quote "you must be the change you wish to see in the world" as their email signature. But they also mean well, and I don't get upset when they invariably jump on the wrong target, I just try and reason with them. Of course, doing this in person is much easier then over the internet, but fighting crazy reactionaries with a crazy reaction is just a bad idea. Especially when one side can EASILY out crazy you.
I think we have firmly established that the people most loudly screaming the phrase "rape culture" are not arguing in good faith.
If it makes you feel better, they're only accidentally trying to change how rape is perceived as a casualty of attacking people seeking abortions. You know, just accidentally trampling on some people's rights while trying to damage other people's autonomy.
Wait, did I say better?
Worse. That was the word I meant.
Total brofist.
Right, but that doesn't say anything about the concept of rape culture. For example, I haven't seen a lot of people in THIS thread arguing in bad faith about it, despite the fact that the argument extends from a website that is arguing in bad faith.