I wouldn't mind a restriction on warps, but I don't want to make them cost anything, because I honestly made frequent usage of my vault not as a protection measure, but to keep my shit out of griefer hands. If the home commands went, I'd be kinda pissed because I don't remember how to get to my home in Pandemonium from the warp pad, but I can get to my Ice Cave house from the IC warp OR from LI. Maybe a 5- or 10-minute wait between warps, including the /home command?
Hmm... A cooldown may be a reasonable solution, instead of a gold cost. I think it should have a build-up, too... maybe, a 10 second countdown after you've typed /warp. That way, you can't just use it to happily warp away from something that may hurt you.
Perhaps, instead of /home, you could have the option of having a warp platform built into your home? My thought is actually less about "having your home too far out of the way", but more "I'll type /sethome whenever I want to go back home, and then I can warp back to the same spot"... which was making easy to expand into the unexplored areas quickly (which seemed to a problem to Vic, who wanted things to be a bit harder to be "tamed"). That way, people can have their actual homes be accessable by warp, but controls the abuse?
Popcicle42 on
0
proyebatGARY WAS HEREASH IS A LOSERRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
Just wiped all (4 of, holy shit) my Ubuntu installations, and installed Arch Linux i686. Everything is peachy except I'm getting a segfault:
# A fatal error has been detected by the Java Runtime Environment:
#
# SIGSEGV (0xb) at pc=0xb77b7424, pid=4531, tid=2160675696
#
# JRE version: 6.0_23-b05
# Java VM: Java HotSpot(TM) Server VM (19.0-b09 mixed mode linux-x86 )
# Problematic frame:
# C [+0x424] __kernel_vsyscall+0x10
Magnificent doesn't quite put the minecart system into perspective, but its a start.
Highway has been updated with the latest technology, making your trips from the void to GE a breeze.
Rules:
-Don't place a minecart, if one isn't on the RIGHT side of the track, at a booster, it might be in use, just wait a sec. (if it doesn't come back though, feel free to place a cart, boost off, and if you find a 2nd cart, just take that one and make sure resend the first back to the start)
-AFK all you want, when you hit the next hub or end, you'll be let off automatically.
-Look for buttons on the wool that should be eye level to the right of the booster.
Also, might be planning a railroad to OLD and extending the path to Vics house in GE.
Magnificent doesn't quite put the minecart system into perspective, but its a start.
Highway has been updated with the latest technology, making your trips from the void to GE a breeze.
Rules:
-Don't place a minecart, if one isn't on the RIGHT side of the track, at a booster, it might be in use, just wait a sec. (if it doesn't come back though, feel free to place a cart, boost off, and if you find a 2nd cart, just take that one and make sure resend the first back to the start)
-AFK all you want, when you hit the next hub or end, you'll be let off automatically.
-Look for buttons on the wool that should be eye level to the right of the booster.
Also, might be planning a railroad to OLD and extending the path to Vics house in GE.
Just spotted a problem. The railroad that leads to the void is so long that it keeps eating the carts before they have a chance to bounce back. I think they're falling into unloaded chunks far down the track. Maybe it needs a "station" somewhere in the middle.
There's a key at the top of the page if you don't know how the diagrams work.
edit: Also, a normal clock might pulse a little too quickly for a lighthouse, but there's no reason you can't build the clock in the base of the lighthouse and then put some delayers on the way up to the top. I haven't tried it myself, but that sounds like it would increase the time it takes the output to pulse on and off.
And if you want specific flash-patterns, you could look into D-Latches. Although you'll have to make em yourself since I haven't seen em yet in redstone cicuitry.
(D-Latches are used in scrolling led displays)
D flip-flops are actually on that same page I linked. IMO the easiest one to build (and to implement into circuits) is the vertical one, the one they only give a side-view of because it's one block wide.
Chances are if you're building a D-latch, you're building several of them, and that design makes it easy to make several of them closeby.
(if you guys haven't figured out yet, I really really like redstone)
Magnificent doesn't quite put the minecart system into perspective, but its a start.
Highway has been updated with the latest technology, making your trips from the void to GE a breeze.
Rules:
-Don't place a minecart, if one isn't on the RIGHT side of the track, at a booster, it might be in use, just wait a sec. (if it doesn't come back though, feel free to place a cart, boost off, and if you find a 2nd cart, just take that one and make sure resend the first back to the start)
-AFK all you want, when you hit the next hub or end, you'll be let off automatically.
-Look for buttons on the wool that should be eye level to the right of the booster.
Also, might be planning a railroad to OLD and extending the path to Vics house in GE.
Just spotted a problem. The railroad that leads to the void is so long that it keeps eating the carts before they have a chance to bounce back. I think they're falling into unloaded chunks far down the track. Maybe it needs a "station" somewhere in the middle.
Oye. I was wondering about that. I think GE did it too, though it seems to not happen if your just doing little loops like i was.
So...just a pit stop kinda station? Cause there is nothing between the void and FS...even UD is across from void
Magnificent doesn't quite put the minecart system into perspective, but its a start.
Highway has been updated with the latest technology, making your trips from the void to GE a breeze.
Rules:
-Don't place a minecart, if one isn't on the RIGHT side of the track, at a booster, it might be in use, just wait a sec. (if it doesn't come back though, feel free to place a cart, boost off, and if you find a 2nd cart, just take that one and make sure resend the first back to the start)
-AFK all you want, when you hit the next hub or end, you'll be let off automatically.
-Look for buttons on the wool that should be eye level to the right of the booster.
Also, might be planning a railroad to OLD and extending the path to Vics house in GE.
Just spotted a problem. The railroad that leads to the void is so long that it keeps eating the carts before they have a chance to bounce back. I think they're falling into unloaded chunks far down the track. Maybe it needs a "station" somewhere in the middle.
Oye. I was wondering about that. I think GE did it too, though it seems to not happen if your just doing little loops like i was.
So...just a pit stop kinda station? Cause there is nothing between the void and FS...even UD is across from void
Maybe I could revive that highway safehouse project?
Just wiped all (4 of, holy shit) my Ubuntu installations, and installed Arch Linux i686. Everything is peachy except I'm getting a segfault:
# A fatal error has been detected by the Java Runtime Environment:
#
# SIGSEGV (0xb) at pc=0xb77b7424, pid=4531, tid=2160675696
#
# JRE version: 6.0_23-b05
# Java VM: Java HotSpot(TM) Server VM (19.0-b09 mixed mode linux-x86 )
# Problematic frame:
# C [+0x424] __kernel_vsyscall+0x10
Anyone have a clue on fixing it?
Try getting the official Sun JRE, instead of the default one Arch uses.
on a blue Monday we talked about the possibility of... DiscWorld, residing on the great A'Tuin.
With Vic already contemplating the next iteration of the Underdark...
I know, I've read several (Moist Von Lipwig is my favorite character), but I was just thinking in a fusion of both ideas. Yeah, I'm crazy like that :P
We would be entering the realm of the Dwarves.
Funny enough, the story offers us artifacts as well.
The 'Devices'. Unbreakable mysterious blocks that offer a range of functionality.
Like the one that has two axis which slowly rotate with an INFINITE TORQUE.
Or the one that records and playbacks recorded sounds.
We could revolve the underdark story around the discworld dwarves and their quest for the 'Devices'.
And have the Nether Demons as the undesired dungeon monsters.
My fav character is Vimes. He is a badass anti-hero.
(Unless you mean the tv-series, I like the Havelock Vetinari actor. Despite the wrong hair color)
Magnificent doesn't quite put the minecart system into perspective, but its a start.
Highway has been updated with the latest technology, making your trips from the void to GE a breeze.
Rules:
-Don't place a minecart, if one isn't on the RIGHT side of the track, at a booster, it might be in use, just wait a sec. (if it doesn't come back though, feel free to place a cart, boost off, and if you find a 2nd cart, just take that one and make sure resend the first back to the start)
-AFK all you want, when you hit the next hub or end, you'll be let off automatically.
-Look for buttons on the wool that should be eye level to the right of the booster.
Also, might be planning a railroad to OLD and extending the path to Vics house in GE.
Just spotted a problem. The railroad that leads to the void is so long that it keeps eating the carts before they have a chance to bounce back. I think they're falling into unloaded chunks far down the track. Maybe it needs a "station" somewhere in the middle.
Oye. I was wondering about that. I think GE did it too, though it seems to not happen if your just doing little loops like i was.
So...just a pit stop kinda station? Cause there is nothing between the void and FS...even UD is across from void
Maybe I could revive that highway safehouse project?
Maybe...we'd have to figure out where to put them (aka how far a minecart can go and bounce back before being "eaten") as well as putting in a place that isn't going to destroy something nearby. I'd like to make the stops fairly decent, safehouse, stores maybe? and maybe a park for those that want to take their creepers for a walk.
I wouldn't mind a restriction on warps, but I don't want to make them cost anything, because I honestly made frequent usage of my vault not as a protection measure, but to keep my shit out of griefer hands. If the home commands went, I'd be kinda pissed because I don't remember how to get to my home in Pandemonium from the warp pad, but I can get to my Ice Cave house from the IC warp OR from LI. Maybe a 5- or 10-minute wait between warps, including the /home command?
Hmm... A cooldown may be a reasonable solution, instead of a gold cost. I think it should have a build-up, too... maybe, a 10 second countdown after you've typed /warp. That way, you can't just use it to happily warp away from something that may hurt you.
Perhaps, instead of /home, you could have the option of having a warp platform built into your home? My thought is actually less about "having your home too far out of the way", but more "I'll type /sethome whenever I want to go back home, and then I can warp back to the same spot"... which was making easy to expand into the unexplored areas quickly (which seemed to a problem to Vic, who wanted things to be a bit harder to be "tamed"). That way, people can have their actual homes be accessable by warp, but controls the abuse?
The build-up/cool-down combo seems to be a good combination and the warp pad seems like a decent idea as well. But the question is how one would go about A) protecting the name of the warp so you don't get griefers and acquiring the warp. Would it cost gold to purchase or what? Only personal warp pad I'd actually want would be to my PA house and mines.
As far as setting home, I think most of the UD residents tend to use it as what it's intended for: a personal warp back home. I know I do that, but it's more to save travel time than anything. I could spend half an hour wandering PA trying to find my house and risk being eaten by lava, even though I know it's relatively close to the safehouse, or I could cut the travel time and /home there. My house in the Ice Caves is easily accessible through either the drop-down house I have that's near the island or the skyway (caveway?) from Lumberice, so I don't need /home to get there.
TL;DR - PA house is the only one I really use /home for because I get lost in PA.
D34THROW on
Minecraft Nickname - D34THROW
Current Server - None.
Current Project - Surviving in SSP.
To be entirely honest, my first understanding of the warp system caused me to absolutely abuse it. It was simply a..means of keeping my loot safe while incrementally moving forward and dropping it again when I had found abundant resources. Also, negating the penalties of dying, as I'd usually be able to pop right back and (more often than not) the enemies that killed me were gone. Adding in the ability to warp to a vault simply meant that I had a more secure staging point.
And really, when I look at that paragraph, that doesn't feel dangerous and exciting. That feels like I am powergaming the system. And I don't know that I'd want that from a new underdark.
I really don't want to see a new Underdark because all my hard work will have gone to waste. 15 iron blocks, 12 gold blocks, 2 diamond blocks, a shitload of redstone, a 6x8x100 tunnel going back to the bedrock walls of the ice caves, my drop house, my regular house, the UAPS and its work, all gone to pot.
However, if Vic was willing to be lenient about the stuff we had and give it back to us provided we can give screenshots of our loot (say put all the stuff we want to transfer into a chest and screenshot its contents, with some kind of proof that it's the UD, say visible chat), I might be a little more into the idea. Of course, we wouldn't get it back right away in the new Underdark...only once the core area is settled and your house is at least started.
I'm personally a metal and mineral hoarder, so I keep my iron, gold, and diamonds unless I absolutely need to use them for tools or purchases.
Another good aspect to a new UD: NO FUCKING MOB FARM. That thing ruined the UD economy...I purchased two cubes (9x9x9 and 39x39x39) with mob drops from that thing.
D34THROW on
Minecraft Nickname - D34THROW
Current Server - None.
Current Project - Surviving in SSP.
If /sethome was limited to once a month/week or more it would prevent abuse. It could be permanent and cost gold to change it again. If building a secondary home then the warp pad system would work to connect your homes together.
It would be nice to see the Stargate mod instead of warps, maybe. That way, you could have the benefits of warps and not have them totally abused. I know that Stargate is working with Bukkit, because I that friend of mine is using it on his server.
If there's a limit on the number of portals that can be connected to any one gate, we could have them go in a ring (i.e. Ice Caves to Undercore to Old Core to Gehenna to False Surface to Pandemonium, etc.), and no purchasing gates.
Of course, we might still need warps for vaults, and potentially personal warp pads. Maybe have the person who wants a warp pad have to build it out of rare materials like obsidian, lapis blocks, diamond, gold, or something like that before the warp can be added.
D34THROW on
Minecraft Nickname - D34THROW
Current Server - None.
Current Project - Surviving in SSP.
Just tossing in my 2 cents for this warp discussion.
UD related:
-From spawn to pretty much everywhere that people are, is longer than 5 mins. You die, your stuff is gone.
-Griefing will always be a problem, Vaults help deter that greatly. (fixing a building? easy. You telling me someone stole your 200 gold Bs....right.)
-/home is more than just your personal warp, limiting it is retarded when its used for things like: Caught on fire? /home is in water. Fall in lava? /home quickly and at least when you die your stuff doesnt end in lava. TNT digging like i do? /home behind an OBS wall. And a dozen other useful things.
Warps also get people to spread the fuck out. Diannao's is an insanely perfect example of that problem, everyone builds near spawn, and for those trying to get "away" from it, they walk for a few days. causing map size issues as well as keeping people from actually knowing whats in what direction. (your an idiot if you think people actually build paths to their house in the middle of nowhere, and just as rarely paths to that awesome atlas thinger out in the middle of nowhere.
Another example of why we want warps and them to be used often:
Eins "old" server, with "freebuild island", "Ember" (our mining island, covered in strip mines and etc), sand island (sand duh), and other warps that keep people from eyeing your OBS house and mining it because they can't find OBS elsewhere.
Final example for you meat heads. Remember before GE and PA were introduced? How many people mined the OBS creepers because that was the only place to get it? Yeah, doesn't happen when people have a warp to a place they can mine it from.
It would be nice to see the Stargate mod instead of warps, maybe. That way, you could have the benefits of warps and not have them totally abused. I know that Stargate is working with Bukkit, because I that friend of mine is using it on his server.
If there's a limit on the number of portals that can be connected to any one gate, we could have them go in a ring (i.e. Ice Caves to Undercore to Old Core to Gehenna to False Surface to Pandemonium, etc.), and no purchasing gates.
Of course, we might still need warps for vaults, and potentially personal warp pads. Maybe have the person who wants a warp pad have to build it out of rare materials like obsidian, lapis blocks, diamond, gold, or something like that before the warp can be added.
I haven't seen that Bukkit-mod, but I'll definitely check that out!
As for "personal warps", I was thinking along the lines of how the old warp system worked in that regard... maybe, 20-30B for a op/admin to come over and set a specific spot as the warp, with a name you specified. It'd be up to the purchaser to keep the warp "name" secure... making it not easily guessable, not giving the name out, etc. If you wanted to have a fancy "pad", awesome (I know I would!), but if you want to not be obvious that you have a warp point, that's fine, too. You'd still need to be within, say, 5 blocks of the spot to warp to another "warp point".
"Public" warp points would work the same, but obviously the name would be public. In the current UD, we obviously already have points built (I'd even have them set up as soon as warping becomes avail again). In the new UD, new ones would have to be built and paid for, and it'd probably be something that either 1) A rich benefactor could set up, or 2) Get people to pitch in to make the community warp point.
Alternately, a private warp would only work for people who have permission to use it. I don't know if there's a system that allows that kind of control, but you could have public warps open to all, and private warps open for it's creator, any op/admin, and any other person specified by the creator. Hell, for a smallish fee (maybe, 2b per name), you could later add or remove a name from the list.
Add the chargeup / cooldown mechanic, and have the personal warp points replace /home, and I think we may building to a very reasonable solution to having non-game-bending warp system.
So, to recap the current "suggestion" (for the TL-DR crowd):
1) Warps only from "warp point" to "warp point".
2) Warps take 5-10 seconds to build up charge before teleportation happens, to prevent the "ohgodcreeper" escape.
3) Warps have a 15 minute cooldown, so that one can't simply flit between warps quick-as-you-please.
4) "Warp Points" cost some amount of GoldB to set up (20-30?), so that people can purchase warp points for their individual homes.
5) Warp points might require something (either a gate, or platform, or maybe a RuneCraft-esque design) to be built before it could be purchased.
6) Public warps would be open for all to use (either by permissions, or that everyone knows the warp name)
7) Private warps are limited to who can use them (again, either by permissions, or that the name is kept secret)
8) Warps would be otherwise free to use (no gold or redstone cost).
Just tossing in my 2 cents for this warp discussion.
UD related:
-From spawn to pretty much everywhere that people are, is longer than 5 mins. You die, your stuff is gone.
-Griefing will always be a problem, Vaults help deter that greatly. (fixing a building? easy. You telling me someone stole your 200 gold Bs....right.)
-/home is more than just your personal warp, limiting it is retarded when its used for things like: Caught on fire? /home is in water. Fall in lava? /home quickly and at least when you die your stuff doesnt end in lava. TNT digging like i do? /home behind an OBS wall. And a dozen other useful things.
Warps also get people to spread the fuck out. Diannao's is an insanely perfect example of that problem, everyone builds near spawn, and for those trying to get "away" from it, they walk for a few days. causing map size issues as well as keeping people from actually knowing whats in what direction. (your an idiot if you think people actually build paths to their house in the middle of nowhere, and just as rarely paths to that awesome atlas thinger out in the middle of nowhere.
Another example of why we want warps and them to be used often:
Eins "old" server, with "freebuild island", "Ember" (our mining island, covered in strip mines and etc), sand island (sand duh), and other warps that keep people from eyeing your OBS house and mining it because they can't find OBS elsewhere.
Final example for you meat heads. Remember before GE and PA were introduced? How many people mined the OBS creepers because that was the only place to get it? Yeah, doesn't happen when people have a warp to a place they can mine it from.
I'm going to toss out my two cents.
I think /home should exist for anyone who has a server owned vault. Those would be for regulars of the underdark
I think warps should be purchased from the admin and can only be constructed under certain requirements and are limited to one per area.
For example if vic opened a new area up you couldn't just toss down X# of diamonds for a warp right away, the area for the warp would have to be lit up and have a contained safehouse/warphouse made of obsidian with metal doors. From there you'd need to walk to wherever your going and if you like adventure you could transverse the walkway/highways connecting areas or just warp there for your convience.
The thing is warps should work like the portal to the nether, you must enter the warp on one end and end up at a different warp portal. No commands to do it, you still need to hoof it to a warp point and then walk through it to select where your heading.
I also wouldn't be that sad if the warp system was sequential where you could only make short "jumps" from warphouse to warphouse rather then just making one warp to whereever your going. Vic could make it interesting by opening up an area farther out that you couldn't warp to and had to hoof it through an area to make it to. Then in the future open up the area between the two (off to the side between, not between between) and then you could complete the warp train.
It would be excellent if the portal/warp system sometimes mucked up and sent you to undiscovered areas or kill rooms with monsters to encourage people to walk or face the risk of using the system.
If /home goes away, I personally don't care as long as there's a warp pad nearby my house, but Kil makes a good argument for /home...my opinion on that is starting to change.
I also see his point for warps to areas with an abundance of a given material (netherrack, sand, obsidian; Red Caves, Sand Caves, and Pandemonium, respectively), major settlements (Lumberice, Undercore, Old Core) and geographical locations within the Underdark (Ice Caves, Uberdark, False Surface, etc.), along with cube warps so we can continue to protect our shit.
And also, for the time being, if it wasn't already obvious, I am suspending all UAPS activities and the construction of Vault 501 (sadface).
D34THROW on
Minecraft Nickname - D34THROW
Current Server - None.
Current Project - Surviving in SSP.
I'm still getting that 'taking too long' error when I try to log in to UD.
Vic if you have any ideas on how to fix it, don't rush to get it done. I'm in no hurry so just whenever you've got some time to kill will be fine.
I used to get that error a few times here and there, dropping NOD32s firewall fixed the issue. However it works sometimes with the firewall on as well so I'm not sure whats going on with that.
Without sarcasm, anyone who is in the UD and has 2 cents to put in, please do. We're all playing on the same server, you might as well has your voice be heard. The only way Vic will know what we're thinking is if we talk about it.
Now, if Vic takes out suggestions, that's another matter!
Kileak: I'll go through your points as best I can.
-From spawn to pretty much everywhere that people are, is longer than 5 mins. You die, your stuff is gone.... Warps also get people to spread the fuck out. Diannao's is an insanely perfect example of that problem, everyone builds near spawn, and for those trying to get "away" from it, they walk for a few days. causing map size issues as well as keeping people from actually knowing whats in what direction. (your an idiot if you think people actually build paths to their house in the middle of nowhere, and just as rarely paths to that awesome atlas thinger out in the middle of nowhere.
I've clumped both of these together, because I feel that they're similar points. I do agree that expansion is dangerous... and necessary for the success of the server. But shouldn't exploration be dangerous? Shouldn't we be afraid of the dark on a Survival server? I didn't feel that warps were necessary, but after having conversations with other players, I see the reasons why people feel they are necessary. Making sure people spread out is a exceptionally good example... I avoid UnderCore, not because I dislike it, but because it's the laggiest part of the map. Definitely a good reason to expand.
What I'm trying to find is a compromise between expanding too much (which sounded like a slight concern with Vic) and expanding not enough. I feel that having warps but only being able to warp from specific point to another specific point encourages controlled expansion, where people do expand and are able to set up warp points... but still slows down the expansion enough that venturing too far from that point without a plan is dangerous.
Of course, as Deathrow pointed out, people will likely want to warp to a specific, personal place (a home, base, store, nifty private island, whatever). The ability to have a personal warp point will allow easy transport to your own home.
-Griefing will always be a problem, Vaults help deter that greatly. (fixing a building? easy. You telling me someone stole your 200 gold Bs....right.)
I'm open to vaults... or any other protection solution we find. If we institute vaults, the cost of having a "warp point" would naturally be rolled into the cost of the vault itself. Really, if we institute warps, I have no problem with including vaults as well. If there's a solution available that doesn't require vaults, I'm open to seeing how that may work.
-/home is more than just your personal warp, limiting it is retarded when its used for things like: Caught on fire? /home is in water. Fall in lava? /home quickly and at least when you die your stuff doesnt end in lava. TNT digging like i do? /home behind an OBS wall. And a dozen other useful things.
Probably the meatiest part of the dispute, in my book. I feel that using /home in this way reduces the danger of the world in a very lopsided way. Lava should be dangerous, it should kill you, it should disintegrate your stuff. It's lava. Fire should be able to burn you to death, TNT should be able to blow you up. These are natural hazards in the game, the challenges that face the players as they explore and build. It is, in effect, the "survival" part of Survival Multiplayer... and being able to freely play a "Get Out of Jail Free" card by /home-ing out of danger seems to be a potentially game-breaking change to what is, ultimately, one of the very cruxes of the game itself.
I'd quote Sheez in this regard, as I felt the same when I started playing the server, but I'm already going to go a bit quote-happy. So, instead, just scroll up and read it. It shares my sentiments on it exactly. Ultimately, it feels as if I'm gaming the system. I don't doubt /home's usefulness as a tool. I'm just not sure if that particular tool deserves to be in my toolbox.
Another example of why we want warps and them to be used often:
Eins "old" server, with "freebuild island", "Ember" (our mining island, covered in strip mines and etc), sand island (sand duh), and other warps that keep people from eyeing your OBS house and mining it because they can't find OBS elsewhere.
Final example for you meat heads. Remember before GE and PA were introduced? How many people mined the OBS creepers because that was the only place to get it? Yeah, doesn't happen when people have a warp to a place they can mine it from.
This is a very good point, and perhaps one I missed because of when I got introduced to the game. Perhaps, then, a nod to what Deathrow suggested, a-la Stargate... just like in the show, perhaps major areas would have pre-created warp point already existing in specific locations, especially if it's the only place by admin design to have a particular resource. It could be a part of the mystery and storyline.
I feel that perhaps I've touched on a sore spot with you, Kileak, and surely I didn't mean to! I definitely know, as one of the ops, that you've got a vested interest in the direction of the server. I really do feel that there is some middle ground here, and I hope we can all come up with a solution that works for everyone. I see both the pros and cons of having warps, and whatever the answer, I'm gonna keep playing on the UD (old or new).
Without sarcasm, anyone who is in the UD and has 2 cents to put in, please do. We're all playing on the same server, you might as well has your voice be heard. The only way Vic will know what we're thinking is if we talk about it.
Now, if Vic takes out suggestions, that's another matter!
Kileak: I'll go through your points as best I can.
-From spawn to pretty much everywhere that people are, is longer than 5 mins. You die, your stuff is gone.... Warps also get people to spread the fuck out. Diannao's is an insanely perfect example of that problem, everyone builds near spawn, and for those trying to get "away" from it, they walk for a few days. causing map size issues as well as keeping people from actually knowing whats in what direction. (your an idiot if you think people actually build paths to their house in the middle of nowhere, and just as rarely paths to that awesome atlas thinger out in the middle of nowhere.
I've clumped both of these together, because I feel that they're similar points. I do agree that expansion is dangerous... and necessary for the success of the server. But shouldn't exploration be dangerous? Shouldn't we be afraid of the dark on a Survival server? I didn't feel that warps were necessary, but after having conversations with other players, I see the reasons why people feel they are necessary. Making sure people spread out is a exceptionally good example... I avoid UnderCore, not because I dislike it, but because it's the laggiest part of the map. Definitely a good reason to expand.
What I'm trying to find is a compromise between expanding too much (which sounded like a slight concern with Vic) and expanding not enough. I feel that having warps but only being able to warp from specific point to another specific point encourages controlled expansion, where people do expand and are able to set up warp points... but still slows down the expansion enough that venturing too far from that point without a plan is dangerous.
Of course, as Deathrow pointed out, people will likely want to warp to a specific, personal place (a home, base, store, nifty private island, whatever). The ability to have a personal warp point will allow easy transport to your own home.
-Griefing will always be a problem, Vaults help deter that greatly. (fixing a building? easy. You telling me someone stole your 200 gold Bs....right.)
I'm open to vaults... or any other protection solution we find. If we institute vaults, the cost of having a "warp point" would naturally be rolled into the cost of the vault itself. Really, if we institute warps, I have no problem with including vaults as well. If there's a solution available that doesn't require vaults, I'm open to seeing how that may work.
-/home is more than just your personal warp, limiting it is retarded when its used for things like: Caught on fire? /home is in water. Fall in lava? /home quickly and at least when you die your stuff doesnt end in lava. TNT digging like i do? /home behind an OBS wall. And a dozen other useful things.
Probably the meatiest part of the dispute, in my book. I feel that using /home in this way reduces the danger of the world in a very lopsided way. Lava should be dangerous, it should kill you, it should disintegrate your stuff. It's lava. Fire should be able to burn you to death, TNT should be able to blow you up. These are natural hazards in the game, the challenges that face the players as they explore and build. It is, in effect, the "survival" part of Survival Multiplayer... and being able to freely play a "Get Out of Jail Free" card by /home-ing out of danger seems to be a potentially game-breaking change to what is, ultimately, one of the very cruxes of the game itself.
I'd quote Sheez in this regard, as I felt the same when I started playing the server, but I'm already going to go a bit quote-happy. So, instead, just scroll up and read it. It shares my sentiments on it exactly. Ultimately, it feels as if I'm gaming the system. I don't doubt /home's usefulness as a tool. I'm just not sure if that particular tool deserves to be in my toolbox.
Another example of why we want warps and them to be used often:
Eins "old" server, with "freebuild island", "Ember" (our mining island, covered in strip mines and etc), sand island (sand duh), and other warps that keep people from eyeing your OBS house and mining it because they can't find OBS elsewhere.
Final example for you meat heads. Remember before GE and PA were introduced? How many people mined the OBS creepers because that was the only place to get it? Yeah, doesn't happen when people have a warp to a place they can mine it from.
This is a very good point, and perhaps one I missed because of when I got introduced to the game. Perhaps, then, a nod to what Deathrow suggested, a-la Stargate... just like in the show, perhaps major areas would have pre-created warp point already existing in specific locations, especially if it's the only place by admin design to have a particular resource. It could be a part of the mystery and storyline.
I feel that perhaps I've touched on a sore spot with you, Kileak, and surely I didn't mean to! I definitely know, as one of the ops, that you've got a vested interest in the direction of the server. I really do feel that there is some middle ground here, and I hope we can all come up with a solution that works for everyone. I see both the pros and cons of having warps, and whatever the answer, I'm gonna keep playing on the UD (old or new).
NOYOURADUMBHEAD.
That aside, when put in that light, you've got a damn solid point. UD is supposed to be hard mode on hard. (or normal mod on hard, as really normal is harder than hard) so...yeah, maybe like iRevert was saying, /home for vaults.
(there is this tiny voice that reminds me that 90% of my lava/fire incidents were caused by lag, but...its just another challenge)
Also, with iReverts idea of having to build an awesome nearly impenetrable safehouse and whatever other requirements might be needed to make a warp, as well as having to walk to a /warp location, does sound very nice. I like the idea of the stargate mod.
BUT. We need a tower like that twilight zone episode of the...what was it? the missing 13th floor? where the 13th floor has all the warp gates to each area (this would be placed at spawn or something)
If /home goes away, I personally don't care as long as there's a warp pad nearby my house, but Kil makes a good argument for /home...my opinion on that is starting to change.
I also see his point for warps to areas with an abundance of a given material (netherrack, sand, obsidian; Red Caves, Sand Caves, and Pandemonium, respectively), major settlements (Lumberice, Undercore, Old Core) and geographical locations within the Underdark (Ice Caves, Uberdark, False Surface, etc.), along with cube warps so we can continue to protect our shit.
Maybe make warps native to the different areas and something to be discovered?
Like new area opens and there are warps out there, go find em.
They'd become natural magnates for new towns as well which would be cool.
Gentlemen's code on how construction goes on around them.
I like these ideas. Not all of us were able to get the gold together for vaults before Hey0 went belly-up. Frankly I'd be content if warps went back to the way they were, though.
I do not have the time to dig into this subject too deep until tomorrow, but I'll give my own thoughts on the warp issue.
I agree with all that has been said. There are pros and cons to warps and these often boil down to how much convenience one is prepared to give up to make the game more challenging and fun (read: deadly).
Warps provide extremely convenient travel and they make natural focus point of communities. They allow you to get back to what you were doing after you die. However they remove a lot of the tension of exploration and makes the server feel smaller and much less dangerous. They allow vault cubes to be made, which helps against griefers.
Warps as they worked with Hey0 are with almost complete certainty not going be the final solution. The overhanging problem is that as long as the warp and home commands exist people will be able to teleport out of any dangerous situation they find themselves in. This is incompatible with my vision for the Underdark.
My intention is to tackle this issue using three mods.
1: Stargate/Some kind of Teleportation Gate mod. There will be a few focus points in the world that once explored and properly activated will allow travel to and from them to a teleportation "core" that I will build in the new Undercore. These will be limited in number and far apart, making road and minecart systems very useful, but will help people return to their home and create natural focus points for distant communities.
2: Chest protection: This is on my mod wishlist at the moment and I have not been able to research the matter properly (I know a mod like this existed for Hey0), but simply put I want it to be possible to add a password to a chest to prevent unauthorized rummaging around in peoples valuables.
3: More powerful antigrief plugins: There are ever more complex antigrief plugins being developed as we speak, and we are currently testing one of these. If some of the plugins that exist already live up to all of their promises then griefing as we know it now will be a thing of the past.
Posts
Hmm... A cooldown may be a reasonable solution, instead of a gold cost. I think it should have a build-up, too... maybe, a 10 second countdown after you've typed /warp. That way, you can't just use it to happily warp away from something that may hurt you.
Perhaps, instead of /home, you could have the option of having a warp platform built into your home? My thought is actually less about "having your home too far out of the way", but more "I'll type /sethome whenever I want to go back home, and then I can warp back to the same spot"... which was making easy to expand into the unexplored areas quickly (which seemed to a problem to Vic, who wanted things to be a bit harder to be "tamed"). That way, people can have their actual homes be accessable by warp, but controls the abuse?
#
# SIGSEGV (0xb) at pc=0xb77b7424, pid=4531, tid=2160675696
#
# JRE version: 6.0_23-b05
# Java VM: Java HotSpot(TM) Server VM (19.0-b09 mixed mode linux-x86 )
# Problematic frame:
# C [+0x424] __kernel_vsyscall+0x10
Anyone have a clue on fixing it?
Highway has been updated with the latest technology, making your trips from the void to GE a breeze.
Rules:
-Don't place a minecart, if one isn't on the RIGHT side of the track, at a booster, it might be in use, just wait a sec. (if it doesn't come back though, feel free to place a cart, boost off, and if you find a 2nd cart, just take that one and make sure resend the first back to the start)
-AFK all you want, when you hit the next hub or end, you'll be let off automatically.
-Look for buttons on the wool that should be eye level to the right of the booster.
Also, might be planning a railroad to OLD and extending the path to Vics house in GE.
Just spotted a problem. The railroad that leads to the void is so long that it keeps eating the carts before they have a chance to bounce back. I think they're falling into unloaded chunks far down the track. Maybe it needs a "station" somewhere in the middle.
D flip-flops are actually on that same page I linked. IMO the easiest one to build (and to implement into circuits) is the vertical one, the one they only give a side-view of because it's one block wide.
Chances are if you're building a D-latch, you're building several of them, and that design makes it easy to make several of them closeby.
(if you guys haven't figured out yet, I really really like redstone)
Oye. I was wondering about that. I think GE did it too, though it seems to not happen if your just doing little loops like i was.
So...just a pit stop kinda station? Cause there is nothing between the void and FS...even UD is across from void
Maybe I could revive that highway safehouse project?
Try getting the official Sun JRE, instead of the default one Arch uses.
3DS: 0447-9966-6178
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
With Vic already contemplating the next iteration of the Underdark...
Better get on with my next project on Diannao quick, before Vic starts a new server
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
Yeah, I'm crazy like that :P
Please don't go. The drones need you. They look up to you.
Funny enough, the story offers us artifacts as well.
The 'Devices'. Unbreakable mysterious blocks that offer a range of functionality.
Like the one that has two axis which slowly rotate with an INFINITE TORQUE.
Or the one that records and playbacks recorded sounds.
We could revolve the underdark story around the discworld dwarves and their quest for the 'Devices'.
And have the Nether Demons as the undesired dungeon monsters.
My fav character is Vimes. He is a badass anti-hero.
(Unless you mean the tv-series, I like the Havelock Vetinari actor. Despite the wrong hair color)
Maybe...we'd have to figure out where to put them (aka how far a minecart can go and bounce back before being "eaten") as well as putting in a place that isn't going to destroy something nearby. I'd like to make the stops fairly decent, safehouse, stores maybe? and maybe a park for those that want to take their creepers for a walk.
The build-up/cool-down combo seems to be a good combination and the warp pad seems like a decent idea as well. But the question is how one would go about A) protecting the name of the warp so you don't get griefers and
As far as setting home, I think most of the UD residents tend to use it as what it's intended for: a personal warp back home. I know I do that, but it's more to save travel time than anything. I could spend half an hour wandering PA trying to find my house and risk being eaten by lava, even though I know it's relatively close to the safehouse, or I could cut the travel time and /home there. My house in the Ice Caves is easily accessible through either the drop-down house I have that's near the island or the skyway (caveway?) from Lumberice, so I don't need /home to get there.
TL;DR - PA house is the only one I really use /home for because I get lost in PA.
Current Server - None.
Current Project - Surviving in SSP.
And really, when I look at that paragraph, that doesn't feel dangerous and exciting. That feels like I am powergaming the system. And I don't know that I'd want that from a new underdark.
However, if Vic was willing to be lenient about the stuff we had and give it back to us provided we can give screenshots of our loot (say put all the stuff we want to transfer into a chest and screenshot its contents, with some kind of proof that it's the UD, say visible chat), I might be a little more into the idea. Of course, we wouldn't get it back right away in the new Underdark...only once the core area is settled and your house is at least started.
I'm personally a metal and mineral hoarder, so I keep my iron, gold, and diamonds unless I absolutely need to use them for tools or purchases.
Another good aspect to a new UD: NO FUCKING MOB FARM. That thing ruined the UD economy...I purchased two cubes (9x9x9 and 39x39x39) with mob drops from that thing.
Current Server - None.
Current Project - Surviving in SSP.
If there's a limit on the number of portals that can be connected to any one gate, we could have them go in a ring (i.e. Ice Caves to Undercore to Old Core to Gehenna to False Surface to Pandemonium, etc.), and no purchasing gates.
Of course, we might still need warps for vaults, and potentially personal warp pads. Maybe have the person who wants a warp pad have to build it out of rare materials like obsidian, lapis blocks, diamond, gold, or something like that before the warp can be added.
Current Server - None.
Current Project - Surviving in SSP.
UD related:
-From spawn to pretty much everywhere that people are, is longer than 5 mins. You die, your stuff is gone.
-Griefing will always be a problem, Vaults help deter that greatly. (fixing a building? easy. You telling me someone stole your 200 gold Bs....right.)
-/home is more than just your personal warp, limiting it is retarded when its used for things like: Caught on fire? /home is in water. Fall in lava? /home quickly and at least when you die your stuff doesnt end in lava. TNT digging like i do? /home behind an OBS wall. And a dozen other useful things.
Warps also get people to spread the fuck out. Diannao's is an insanely perfect example of that problem, everyone builds near spawn, and for those trying to get "away" from it, they walk for a few days. causing map size issues as well as keeping people from actually knowing whats in what direction. (your an idiot if you think people actually build paths to their house in the middle of nowhere, and just as rarely paths to that awesome atlas thinger out in the middle of nowhere.
Another example of why we want warps and them to be used often:
Eins "old" server, with "freebuild island", "Ember" (our mining island, covered in strip mines and etc), sand island (sand duh), and other warps that keep people from eyeing your OBS house and mining it because they can't find OBS elsewhere.
Final example for you meat heads. Remember before GE and PA were introduced? How many people mined the OBS creepers because that was the only place to get it? Yeah, doesn't happen when people have a warp to a place they can mine it from.
I haven't seen that Bukkit-mod, but I'll definitely check that out!
As for "personal warps", I was thinking along the lines of how the old warp system worked in that regard... maybe, 20-30B for a op/admin to come over and set a specific spot as the warp, with a name you specified. It'd be up to the purchaser to keep the warp "name" secure... making it not easily guessable, not giving the name out, etc. If you wanted to have a fancy "pad", awesome (I know I would!), but if you want to not be obvious that you have a warp point, that's fine, too. You'd still need to be within, say, 5 blocks of the spot to warp to another "warp point".
"Public" warp points would work the same, but obviously the name would be public. In the current UD, we obviously already have points built (I'd even have them set up as soon as warping becomes avail again). In the new UD, new ones would have to be built and paid for, and it'd probably be something that either 1) A rich benefactor could set up, or 2) Get people to pitch in to make the community warp point.
Alternately, a private warp would only work for people who have permission to use it. I don't know if there's a system that allows that kind of control, but you could have public warps open to all, and private warps open for it's creator, any op/admin, and any other person specified by the creator. Hell, for a smallish fee (maybe, 2b per name), you could later add or remove a name from the list.
Add the chargeup / cooldown mechanic, and have the personal warp points replace /home, and I think we may building to a very reasonable solution to having non-game-bending warp system.
So, to recap the current "suggestion" (for the TL-DR crowd):
1) Warps only from "warp point" to "warp point".
2) Warps take 5-10 seconds to build up charge before teleportation happens, to prevent the "ohgodcreeper" escape.
3) Warps have a 15 minute cooldown, so that one can't simply flit between warps quick-as-you-please.
4) "Warp Points" cost some amount of GoldB to set up (20-30?), so that people can purchase warp points for their individual homes.
5) Warp points might require something (either a gate, or platform, or maybe a RuneCraft-esque design) to be built before it could be purchased.
6) Public warps would be open for all to use (either by permissions, or that everyone knows the warp name)
7) Private warps are limited to who can use them (again, either by permissions, or that the name is kept secret)
8) Warps would be otherwise free to use (no gold or redstone cost).
I'm going to toss out my two cents.
I think /home should exist for anyone who has a server owned vault. Those would be for regulars of the underdark
I think warps should be purchased from the admin and can only be constructed under certain requirements and are limited to one per area.
For example if vic opened a new area up you couldn't just toss down X# of diamonds for a warp right away, the area for the warp would have to be lit up and have a contained safehouse/warphouse made of obsidian with metal doors. From there you'd need to walk to wherever your going and if you like adventure you could transverse the walkway/highways connecting areas or just warp there for your convience.
The thing is warps should work like the portal to the nether, you must enter the warp on one end and end up at a different warp portal. No commands to do it, you still need to hoof it to a warp point and then walk through it to select where your heading.
I also wouldn't be that sad if the warp system was sequential where you could only make short "jumps" from warphouse to warphouse rather then just making one warp to whereever your going. Vic could make it interesting by opening up an area farther out that you couldn't warp to and had to hoof it through an area to make it to. Then in the future open up the area between the two (off to the side between, not between between) and then you could complete the warp train.
It would be excellent if the portal/warp system sometimes mucked up and sent you to undiscovered areas or kill rooms with monsters to encourage people to walk or face the risk of using the system.
I also see his point for warps to areas with an abundance of a given material (netherrack, sand, obsidian; Red Caves, Sand Caves, and Pandemonium, respectively), major settlements (Lumberice, Undercore, Old Core) and geographical locations within the Underdark (Ice Caves, Uberdark, False Surface, etc.), along with cube warps so we can continue to protect our shit.
And also, for the time being, if it wasn't already obvious, I am suspending all UAPS activities and the construction of Vault 501 (sadface).
Current Server - None.
Current Project - Surviving in SSP.
Like new area opens and there are warps out there, go find em.
They'd become natural magnates for new towns as well which would be cool.
Gentlemen's code on how construction goes on around them.
Vic if you have any ideas on how to fix it, don't rush to get it done. I'm in no hurry so just whenever you've got some time to kill will be fine.
I used to get that error a few times here and there, dropping NOD32s firewall fixed the issue. However it works sometimes with the firewall on as well so I'm not sure whats going on with that.
Now, if Vic takes out suggestions, that's another matter!
Kileak: I'll go through your points as best I can.
I've clumped both of these together, because I feel that they're similar points. I do agree that expansion is dangerous... and necessary for the success of the server. But shouldn't exploration be dangerous? Shouldn't we be afraid of the dark on a Survival server? I didn't feel that warps were necessary, but after having conversations with other players, I see the reasons why people feel they are necessary. Making sure people spread out is a exceptionally good example... I avoid UnderCore, not because I dislike it, but because it's the laggiest part of the map. Definitely a good reason to expand.
What I'm trying to find is a compromise between expanding too much (which sounded like a slight concern with Vic) and expanding not enough. I feel that having warps but only being able to warp from specific point to another specific point encourages controlled expansion, where people do expand and are able to set up warp points... but still slows down the expansion enough that venturing too far from that point without a plan is dangerous.
Of course, as Deathrow pointed out, people will likely want to warp to a specific, personal place (a home, base, store, nifty private island, whatever). The ability to have a personal warp point will allow easy transport to your own home.
I'm open to vaults... or any other protection solution we find. If we institute vaults, the cost of having a "warp point" would naturally be rolled into the cost of the vault itself. Really, if we institute warps, I have no problem with including vaults as well. If there's a solution available that doesn't require vaults, I'm open to seeing how that may work.
Probably the meatiest part of the dispute, in my book. I feel that using /home in this way reduces the danger of the world in a very lopsided way. Lava should be dangerous, it should kill you, it should disintegrate your stuff. It's lava. Fire should be able to burn you to death, TNT should be able to blow you up. These are natural hazards in the game, the challenges that face the players as they explore and build. It is, in effect, the "survival" part of Survival Multiplayer... and being able to freely play a "Get Out of Jail Free" card by /home-ing out of danger seems to be a potentially game-breaking change to what is, ultimately, one of the very cruxes of the game itself.
I'd quote Sheez in this regard, as I felt the same when I started playing the server, but I'm already going to go a bit quote-happy. So, instead, just scroll up and read it. It shares my sentiments on it exactly. Ultimately, it feels as if I'm gaming the system. I don't doubt /home's usefulness as a tool. I'm just not sure if that particular tool deserves to be in my toolbox.
This is a very good point, and perhaps one I missed because of when I got introduced to the game. Perhaps, then, a nod to what Deathrow suggested, a-la Stargate... just like in the show, perhaps major areas would have pre-created warp point already existing in specific locations, especially if it's the only place by admin design to have a particular resource. It could be a part of the mystery and storyline.
I feel that perhaps I've touched on a sore spot with you, Kileak, and surely I didn't mean to! I definitely know, as one of the ops, that you've got a vested interest in the direction of the server. I really do feel that there is some middle ground here, and I hope we can all come up with a solution that works for everyone. I see both the pros and cons of having warps, and whatever the answer, I'm gonna keep playing on the UD (old or new).
NOYOURADUMBHEAD.
That aside, when put in that light, you've got a damn solid point. UD is supposed to be hard mode on hard. (or normal mod on hard, as really normal is harder than hard) so...yeah, maybe like iRevert was saying, /home for vaults.
(there is this tiny voice that reminds me that 90% of my lava/fire incidents were caused by lag, but...its just another challenge)
Also, with iReverts idea of having to build an awesome nearly impenetrable safehouse and whatever other requirements might be needed to make a warp, as well as having to walk to a /warp location, does sound very nice. I like the idea of the stargate mod.
BUT. We need a tower like that twilight zone episode of the...what was it? the missing 13th floor? where the 13th floor has all the warp gates to each area (this would be placed at spawn or something)
caffron said: "and cat pee is not a laughing matter"
Has your texture pack been updated since the game went BETA?
I like these ideas. Not all of us were able to get the gold together for vaults before Hey0 went belly-up. Frankly I'd be content if warps went back to the way they were, though.
I look forward to this shader pack being completed.
http://www.minecraftforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=1021&t=169030
I agree with all that has been said. There are pros and cons to warps and these often boil down to how much convenience one is prepared to give up to make the game more challenging and fun (read: deadly).
Warps provide extremely convenient travel and they make natural focus point of communities. They allow you to get back to what you were doing after you die. However they remove a lot of the tension of exploration and makes the server feel smaller and much less dangerous. They allow vault cubes to be made, which helps against griefers.
Warps as they worked with Hey0 are with almost complete certainty not going be the final solution. The overhanging problem is that as long as the warp and home commands exist people will be able to teleport out of any dangerous situation they find themselves in. This is incompatible with my vision for the Underdark.
My intention is to tackle this issue using three mods.
1: Stargate/Some kind of Teleportation Gate mod. There will be a few focus points in the world that once explored and properly activated will allow travel to and from them to a teleportation "core" that I will build in the new Undercore. These will be limited in number and far apart, making road and minecart systems very useful, but will help people return to their home and create natural focus points for distant communities.
2: Chest protection: This is on my mod wishlist at the moment and I have not been able to research the matter properly (I know a mod like this existed for Hey0), but simply put I want it to be possible to add a password to a chest to prevent unauthorized rummaging around in peoples valuables.
3: More powerful antigrief plugins: There are ever more complex antigrief plugins being developed as we speak, and we are currently testing one of these. If some of the plugins that exist already live up to all of their promises then griefing as we know it now will be a thing of the past.