Leaders of two tribal groups in Yemen say they will join protests demanding President Ali Abdullah Saleh's resignation following violent crackdowns on demonstrators in Aden.
"The Yemeni people will not stay quiet on the blood that was spilled in Aden and we will avenge for them," said Hussein Ahmar, president of the Yemen Solidarity Council, on Saturday. "We call on all those loyal to Yemen to stand with the revolution until this regime falls."
The Yemen Solidarity Council is comprised largely of member of Saleh's own Hashid tribe. Members of the Baqil tribe will also join in protests, according to Ahmar.
But Saleh appeared to be standing firm, saying Saturday during a meeting with military leaders there was a plot against Yemeni unity, according to the official Saba news agency. The agency also said Saleh received pledges of support from sheikhs and local officials from Abyan Province during a meeting Saturday.
I'd go as far as to say the average European is more anti-war than the average American. I wouldn't put it down to "wisdom" (in some cases maybe a yuppieish sense of liberalism) more cultural differences. Not to mention pragmatisim on Europeans part, most of us understand we don't really have the money or the means to be sending armies around the world anymore. The Americans on the other hand do have that option as long as they can convince the general public it's for a good reason.
And even if you don't have a good reason the American public can be swayed by a good PR campain.
Leaders of two tribal groups in Yemen say they will join protests demanding President Ali Abdullah Saleh's resignation following violent crackdowns on demonstrators in Aden.
"The Yemeni people will not stay quiet on the blood that was spilled in Aden and we will avenge for them," said Hussein Ahmar, president of the Yemen Solidarity Council, on Saturday. "We call on all those loyal to Yemen to stand with the revolution until this regime falls."
The Yemen Solidarity Council is comprised largely of member of Saleh's own Hashid tribe. Members of the Baqil tribe will also join in protests, according to Ahmar.
But Saleh appeared to be standing firm, saying Saturday during a meeting with military leaders there was a plot against Yemeni unity, according to the official Saba news agency. The agency also said Saleh received pledges of support from sheikhs and local officials from Abyan Province during a meeting Saturday.
I'm a big fan of reruns.
Hey Hey, if you haven't seen it, its new to you!
Rchanen on
0
Options
lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
edited February 2011
so my yahoo morning news headline stated to me that Obama has told Gadhafi to leave Libya 'now'.
and this impressed, amused, confused, and just made me shake my head a bit.
Three people were killed in clashes between anti-government demonstrators and security forces in Tunisia's capital Saturday, the government said, after a second day of unrest in the city.
Riot police and masked police forces in civilian clothes earlier fired warning shots and tear gas at hundreds of protesters, some of whom responded by hurling stones, AFP reporters said.
"Three people died from the dozen who were wounded during clashes and were transferred to hospital for treatment," the interior ministry said in a statement. The description suggested the dead were demonstrators.
"Several members of the security forces were wounded to different degrees," it said without giving a number.
The demonstration during which a loud blast and automatic weapons fire was heard followed a similar protest in the capital on Friday demanding the resignation of the interim Prime Minister Mohamed Ghannouchi.
Ghannouchi was part of the regime of president Zine El Abidine Ben Ali who was dramatically toppled on January 14 following weeks of demonstrations over unemployment and high living costs.
...
The interior ministry said more than 100 people were arrested for involvement in the clashes on Saturday and 88 people on Friday.
It blamed the violence on "agitators" it said had infiltrated peaceful demonstrators.
They had used students "as human shields to carry out violent acts, fires aimed at sowing terror among the people and targeting the internal security forces", the statement said.
Security forces chased protesters through the streets Saturday after about 300 demonstrators chanting anti-government slogans gathered for the fresh protest outside the interior ministry.
The unrest saw protesters tearing up billboards and city benches in an attempt to block police vehicles, an AFP reporter said.
Soldiers arrived at the scene to back up police.
An estimated 100,000 protesters marched down the capital's main avenue on Friday shouting "Ghannouchi Leave" and "Revolution Until Victory".
Just never fucking giving up. Can my future confederation have Tunis as a capital, please?
Also, congrats on the 3-0 result over Angola to win the Africa Nations Championship. I just saw the replay.
I understand the conditions in Iraq are the harshest of any Arabic country right now but their politicians were just elected and half of them are doing the job while trying to avoid weekly assassination attempts by the other half. If you're going to start somewhere, start with not electing obvious douchebags.
I understand the conditions in Iraq are the harshest of any Arabic country right now but their politicians were just elected and half of them are doing the job while trying to avoid weekly assassination attempts by the other half. If you're going to start somewhere, start with not electing obvious douchebags.
Protesting having to live in Iraq. There are no easy answers for what's happening there.
It doesnt mattee who's right or why. They're still right
Yeah, but you shouldn't accept them as right just because of where they come from or what they have done. You take a look at their position, analyze it independently and think for yourself. Judge each situation individually.
I'd go farther.
Individual experiences need to be carefully separated from international or national policy.
You can find all types of wars throughout history that were morally justified/unjustified, or practical/impractical. But what we tend to do is judge every possible international or national policy decision by comparing it to the last policy decision we made that we superficially perceive as similar.
Before we went to Iraq the only thing people kept bringing up was the first Gulf War as a comparison of why we should or shouldn't do it. And then after we were in Iraq it morphed into a discussion of how like/unlike Vietnam it is. And this is by people who had personal experience with each war and by people who googled them. That kind of narrow analysis by the everyman doesn't enlighten the subject.
This is very true. People, and dare I say societies have very short memories. Historical comparisons can be very useful, but only if you actually put some effort into going through history. Go ahead and compare the current US occupation of Afghanistan to the Soviet occupation in the 80s. I sure do. But you must be very careful about it. Realize that history didn't just comprise these two events, that what happened in Afghanistan before and after the Soviets may in fact be more relevant to whats happening today, even if the comparisons are not as obvious.
Its pretty daunting really. When tackling this stuff I try to read as broadly as possible. Comparisons are useful and perhaps required for a real understanding, but when it comes down to it all we can do is analyze based on whatever data we have available to us, and not be too hasty with our conclusions. I think Hoz is right (if I'm reading him properly), the only people who can really know are the individuals who live through it. The rest of us can sit and read about it, and decide as a group if its right or wrong, while being for the most part delightfully ignorant.
[Tycho?] on
0
Options
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I understand the conditions in Iraq are the harshest of any Arabic country right now but their politicians were just elected and half of them are doing the job while trying to avoid weekly assassination attempts by the other half. If you're going to start somewhere, start with not electing obvious douchebags.
Protesting having to live in Iraq. There are no easy answers for what's happening there.
I'm still very confused as to what's going on there. It seems that hundreds of people will die in the coming weeks there if trends continue, but no one in the media seems really able to delineate what exactly is going on.
"What are they protesting?" was my first question. They're basically the only half-way legitimate democracy in the region now, and they just had elections.
I understand the conditions in Iraq are the harshest of any Arabic country right now but their politicians were just elected and half of them are doing the job while trying to avoid weekly assassination attempts by the other half. If you're going to start somewhere, start with not electing obvious douchebags.
You can understand where they're coming from really. I mean is it unreasonable to expect that nearly 8 years after the invasion things would be at least starting to get better?
Casual on
0
Options
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
I understand the conditions in Iraq are the harshest of any Arabic country right now but their politicians were just elected and half of them are doing the job while trying to avoid weekly assassination attempts by the other half. If you're going to start somewhere, start with not electing obvious douchebags.
You can understand where they're coming from really. I mean is it unreasonable to expect that nearly 8 years after the invasion things would be at least starting to get better?
It's unreasonable to protest if it's nothing more than a random and destructive show of frustration without any aim or agenda.
I would imagine they're protesting the crappy level of service they're getting and that it took what, half a year, after elections to form a government.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I understand the conditions in Iraq are the harshest of any Arabic country right now but their politicians were just elected and half of them are doing the job while trying to avoid weekly assassination attempts by the other half. If you're going to start somewhere, start with not electing obvious douchebags.
You can understand where they're coming from really. I mean is it unreasonable to expect that nearly 8 years after the invasion things would be at least starting to get better?
It's unreasonable to protest if it's nothing more than a random and destructive show of frustration without any aim or agenda.
"Whadda we want!?"
"SOMETHING!"
"When do we want it!?"
"AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE!"
On the contrary the security situation alone is worth protesting about. Like I said it's been 8 years now and they're still just as likley to get blown up buying groceries as they were at the start of this mess.
I mean we like to complain and bitch how at risk we are of terrorist attacks here in the west but the fact is for anyone living in Baghdad being murdered going about your daily business is a very real possibility and the government is doing next to nothing about it.
Casual on
0
Options
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
On the contrary the security situation alone is worth protesting about. Like I said it's been 8 years now and they're still just as likley to get blown up buying groceries as they were at the start of this mess.
I mean we like to complain and bitch how at risk we are of terrorist attacks here in the west but the fact is for anyone living in Baghdad being murdered going about your daily business is a very real possibility and the government is doing next to nothing about it.
And I'm not trying to minimalize that problem. I am, however, confused as to what specific goal they're after.
It's not really be 8 years that they've had a government in place; the interim government didn't take over until most of the major combat had ended, and the re-shuffling is still ongoing. As it should be. Hell, we in America think our founding fathers hammered out the best goddamed government ever created, and it still took those guys 15 years or so to get their shit straight without the added headache of major political and religious fractitiousness dividing the populace.
Organizing and protesting against this natural process just because all the other hip Arab kids are doing it isn't really all that viable in the context of the situation. The sectarian religious violence in Iraq isn't likely to be solved by vague appeals to its divided sectarian government. It's like if the Tea Party was acting the fool, and then hoping to mobilize GOP legislators to act against it.
Except we're talking about a nation where 1 in 4 people can't read or write.
On the contrary the security situation alone is worth protesting about. Like I said it's been 8 years now and they're still just as likley to get blown up buying groceries as they were at the start of this mess.
I mean we like to complain and bitch how at risk we are of terrorist attacks here in the west but the fact is for anyone living in Baghdad being murdered going about your daily business is a very real possibility and the government is doing next to nothing about it.
And I'm not trying to minimalize that problem. I am, however, confused as to what specific goal they're after.
It's not really be 8 years that they've had a government in place; the interim government didn't take over until most of the major combat had ended, and the re-shuffling is still ongoing. As it should be. Hell, we in America think our founding fathers hammered out the best goddamed government ever created, and it still took those guys 15 years or so to get their shit straight without the added headache of major political and religious fractitiousness dividing the populace.
Organizing and protesting against this natural process just because all the other hip Arab kids are doing it isn't really all that viable in the context of the situation. The sectarian religious violence in Iraq isn't likely to be solved by vague appeals to its divided sectarian government. It's like if the Tea Party was acting the fool, and then hoping to mobilize GOP legislators to act against it.
Except we're talking about a nation where 1 in 4 people can't read or write.
Well, and you are comparing it to the American revolution for some reason, even though these "headaches" were not the choice of the Iraqi people in the first place. Plus the fact that these "headaches" include having electricity for only a few hours a day, lack of basic sanitation, huge unemployment, and almost zero security. This in a country that was recently largely destroyed by a war and subsequent ethnic cleansing. Plus is still being occupied by foreign troops.
None of these uprisings in the middle east have had leaders, ideologies or detailed sets of reforms. They want their leaders out, at least in the case of the largest scale uprisings. Hardly a solution to the problems these people are facing, as they will discover as reform comes very slowly and painfully, if at all. What are people in Iraq protesting for? A better life. Because they sure aren't getting one the way things are going now.
[Tycho?] on
0
Options
AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
What are people in Iraq protesting for? A better life. Because they sure aren't getting one the way things are going now.
They've got a fairly legitimate democracy, moreso than just about any other ME nation. What changes that could immediately help them do they seek?
The religious violence is their problem and theirs alone. They have to get their own house in order, and things aren't going to improve there (or anywhere) until the government can agree to A) leave religion the fuck out of all things governmental, and crack down hard on everyone who disagrees to do so vis a vis blowing up marketplaces.
But the Shia don't want to crackdown on Shia violence, lest they lose popularity in the elections, and the exact same for the Sunni. And the Kurds.
You want a better life, Iraq? Get the church out of your politics.
It's probably like here in America, where people are shamelessly oblivious to the fact that the government they elected is a reflection of their society. Everyone is mad at the lack of consensus so they blame it on the politicians that those guys in the other parts of the country elected.
You want a better life, Iraq? Get the church out of your politics.
Funny. This sentiment applies to all kinds of places.
>.>
Well the problem with religious people is they think that everything could be made better with just a little more religion. Even when religion is the reason everything is in the toilet in the first place.
Organizing and protesting against this natural process just because all the other hip Arab kids are doing it isn't really all that viable in the context of the situation. The sectarian religious violence in Iraq isn't likely to be solved by vague appeals to its divided sectarian government. It's like if the Tea Party was acting the fool, and then hoping to mobilize GOP legislators to act against it.
Except we're talking about a nation where 1 in 4 people can't read or write.
I like it. The right to assemble and call for the changes you want is not of a much lesser importance than the right to vote, and it's good to test it.
Iraqi security forces detained about 300 people, including prominent journalists, artists and lawyers who took part in nationwide demonstrations Friday, in what some of them described as an operation to intimidate Baghdad intellectuals who hold sway over popular opinion.
On Saturday, four journalists who had been released described being rounded up well after they had left a protest of thousands at Baghdad's Tahrir Square. They said they were handcuffed, blindfolded, beaten and threatened with execution by soldiers from an army intelligence unit.
"It was like they were dealing with a bunch of al-Qaeda operatives, not a group of journalists," said Hussan al-Ssairi, a journalist and poet who described seeing hundreds of protesters in black hoods at the detention facility.
And the region is building and cementing a collective identity, and if Iraqis join that in their own way, then I see it as a very good thing.
Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who only recently formed a fragile governing coalition that is supported by the United States, was apparently concerned about the protest billed as Iraq's "Day of Rage." Leading up to Friday, he ordered a curfew on cars and urged Iraqis to stay home, as a government spokesman warned of "terrorists" who might use "sniping and silencer pistols" to target crowds. Security forces raided a prominent journalist watchdog group involved in organizing the protest.
Despite that, tens of thousands of Iraqis turned out for the protests, which began peacefully but degenerated as forces fired water cannons, sound bombs and live bullets to disperse crowds.
The death toll rose to at least 29 Saturday, as officials reported that six more protesters, including a 14-year-old boy, died from bullet wounds. The deaths were recorded in at least eight places, including Fallujah, Mosul and Tikrit.
Ssairi and his colleagues had joined the protests in Baghdad's Tahrir Square, some wrapping themselves in white sheets in a sign of peace. As the sun set, helicopters swooped down into the crowd, signaling the start of the crackdown.
Around 4 p.m., Aldiyar TV manager Fiysal Alyassiry, who had broadcast the demonstrations, reported that security forces had attacked the station, beat a worker, arrested seven people including a director and an anchorman, and closed the station.
About the same time, Ssairi and his colleages were sitting at an open-air restaurant two miles from the square. According to interviews with him and several others, two Humvees pulled up and about a dozen camoflauge-clad soldiers stormed inside.
They descended upon the table where Hadi al-Mahdi, a journalist and theater director, was sitting with three friends and began beating them.
"We said, 'What are you doing - we're journalists!' " Mahdi said.
They loaded them into the Humvees, drove them to a side street, where they beat them again. Then, blindfolded, they were driven to a place Mahdi later recognized as the former Defense Ministry building, which houses an intelligence unit of the army's 11th Division.
Inside, they heard soldiers laughing and chanting "Maliki liar!" - mocking a slogan some protesters had shouted. Mahdi said he was taken to a room alone, and soon, he was being beaten with sticks, boots and fists. They took his shoes off, wet his feet and administered electric shocks to them.
In between, the soldiers interrogated him, he said. They accused him of being a tool of outsiders wishing to topple Maliki's government. He told them that he'd been a member of Maliki's Dawa party until he recently became disillusioned.
"They said, 'You're Dawa?' " Hadi said. "Then I realized they were totally stupid."
Just because Maliki was elected doesn't mean it's OK to sit back and take that sort of shit.
You want a better life, Iraq? Get the church out of your politics.
Funny. This sentiment applies to all kinds of places.
>.>
Well the problem with religious people is they think that everything could be made better with just a little more religion. Even when religion is the reason everything is in the toilet in the first place.
Tell you what: every governmental system, moarchy, communism, democracy even dictatorship CAN work. Religions are just the same. Depends on what people make of it.
Think about christian crusades.
It depends on the attitude of the people WITHIN the system, not the system itself. Its simply not an influential factor. No, it isn't. No. No. No, no, no, no.
In the end it depends on the people.
We simply tend to forgget it. An in all honesty... our leaders encourage us to forget it. Because if we remember it they are done with. And it doesn't matter if you are a dictator with military backup, it doesn't matter if you are a king or if you got a stash of nukes.
I think by blaming and branding islamic faith as a "bad" the west spat into the face of EVERY single faithful muslim, not just the extremist ones. In addition to the military operations, setting their homes on fire.
Not a very civilized stance if you look at it objectively.
And whats happening now? They are overthrowing their oppresive rulers. Ironically they make currently more progress in resolving the situation than the west in all the decades before. Personally i think we should give them all the help we can come up with. That is the way to go.
This is a big chance, i hope we don't screw it up this time.
You want a better life, Iraq? Get the church out of your politics.
Funny. This sentiment applies to all kinds of places.
>.>
Well the problem with religious people is they think that everything could be made better with just a little more religion. Even when religion is the reason everything is in the toilet in the first place.
Tell you what: every governmental system, moarchy, communism, democracy even dictatorship CAN work. Religions are just the same. Depends on what people make of it.
Think about christian crusades.
It depends on the attitude of the people WITHIN the system, not the system itself. Its simply not an influential factor. No, it isn't. No. No. No, no, no, no.
In the end it depends on the people.
We simply tend to forgget it. An in all honesty... our leaders encourage us to forget it. Because if we remember it they are done with. And it doesn't matter if you are a dictator with military backup, it doesn't matter if you are a king or if you got a stash of nukes.
I think by blaming and branding islamic faith as a "bad" the west spat into the face of EVERY single faithful muslim, not just the extremist ones. In addition to the military operations, setting their homes on fire.
Not a very civilized stance if you look at it objectively.
And whats happening now? They are overthrowing their oppresive rulers. Ironically they make currently more progress in resolving the situation than the west in all the decades before. Personally i think we should give them all the help we can come up with. That is the way to go.
This is a big chance, i hope we don't screw it up this time.
So, Arab world, we will let you handle your own shit and buy oil when you get settle. We won't get involved unless you want us to sit on someone who mass murdered your people and don't want him getting freed or assassinated before his trial/humiliation.
Hassan Mushaimaa, a Bahraini Shia opposition leader who was being tried in absentia in an alleged coup plot, has arrived home from exile after receiving a royal pardon.
London-based Mushaimaa flew to Manama, the capital, from Lebanon on Saturday.
The prominent leader of the Shia Haq movement had said on his Facebook page on Monday that he would be trying to return to the Gulf Arab country after a week of unprecedented protests by majority Shia Muslims against the Sunni monarchy.
Mushaimaa said he wanted to see if the island nation's leadership was serious about dialogue or not.
He was stopped during a stopover in Beirut by Lebanese authorities, who said his name was on an international arrest warrant, and his passport was seized.
Sheikh Khalid ibn Ahmad al-Khalifa, Bahrain's foreign minister, said on Thursday that Mushaimaa, who was among 25 people charged over an alleged coup plot and who was being tried in absentia, had been pardoned and would be allowed to return home to join a national dialogue.
Constitutional monarchy
Security forces killed seven people and wounded hundreds while trying to disperse protests last week before Bahrain pulled back its army and police and allowed peaceful demonstrations in Pearl Square.
Bahrain's protesters want a constitutional monarchy instead of the existing system where citizens vote for a mostly toothless parliament and policy remains the preserve of a ruling elite centred on the Sunni al-Khalifa dynasty.
Mushaimaa's Haq party is more radical than the Shia Wefaq party, from which it split in 2006, when Wefaq contested a parliamentary election.
Haq's leaders often have often been arrested in recent years, only to receive royal pardons.
I love seeing that sign, all over the fucking place. It's the best (<3 Tunis )
So, Arab world, we will let you handle your own shit and buy oil when you get settle. We won't get involved unless you want us to sit on someone who mass murdered your people and don't want him getting freed or assassinated before his trial/humiliation.
Blatantly put, yes, that is the idea. You would probably expect the same for your country.
All of, like, 8 people were killed in all three events combined. Hardly similar. And those are big events that we teach in history classes the nation over.
12 people die every week in Baghdad brushing their teeth.
The prime minister of Tunisia has stepped down from the interim government, according to the country's official news agency.
Prime Minister Mohamed Ghannouchi's resignation Sunday came a day after three people were killed during protests in the capital, Tunis.
"I am resigning today because I am not willing to be a person that takes decisions that could cause casualties," he told reporters Sunday.
He also questioned "why a lot of people considered their main target to keep attacking the government, although a lot of its members agreed to join in this critical time."
At least two people were killed in Oman after clashes between protesters and state security forces on Sunday. Oman is situated in southwest Asia, perched on the southeast coast of the Arabian peninsula. The deaths occurred after security forces fired rubber bullets on a gathering in the industrial city of Sohar, which is about 250 kilometers north of the capital city, Muscat.
The prime minister of Tunisia has stepped down from the interim government, according to the country's official news agency.
Prime Minister Mohamed Ghannouchi's resignation Sunday came a day after three people were killed during protests in the capital, Tunis.
"I am resigning today because I am not willing to be a person that takes decisions that could cause casualties," he told reporters Sunday.
He also questioned "why a lot of people considered their main target to keep attacking the government, although a lot of its members agreed to join in this critical time."
Tunisia for the double-win.
They should keep attacking the government until there is nothing left, then go from there. They need to get as far from the old system as they possibly can. This is when revolutions need leaders, or at least some sort of way of organizing themselves. The people should start organizing things themselves, or use ad-hoc elections and put those elected people in charge. It is unwise to overthrow your government, but then let the next government make decisions. At least the Tunesians are seeing this and not taking it laying down. Egypt will need to learn from this too.
I'm wishing for a drop in oil prices, but I'm not sure I'll get it.
Because high oil prices are what's propping up the petro-monarchies? They survived one bout of low oil prices in the 90s, although that was in a less tumultuous time.
Palestinian leaders here say they have lost faith in U.S. mediation with Israel and are weighing a new strategy to press for independence, including an appeal for United Nations recognition of a state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The evolving strategy, inspired in part by uprisings across the Middle East, also envisions stepping up nonviolent protest against Israeli occupation and trying to end a deep schism between the West Bank's secularist-led Palestinian Authority and the Islamist group Hamas that governs Gaza.
U.S. officials have cautioned the West Bank leadership, which depends on Western financial support, that a unilateral bid for U.N. recognition and a union with Hamas would alienate Israel and dim prospects for peace. The U.S. and Israel brand Hamas a terrorist group.
Could I please have the names of the morons in the Obama administration who think this is a bad idea?
Palestinian leaders here say they have lost faith in U.S. mediation with Israel and are weighing a new strategy to press for independence, including an appeal for United Nations recognition of a state in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The evolving strategy, inspired in part by uprisings across the Middle East, also envisions stepping up nonviolent protest against Israeli occupation and trying to end a deep schism between the West Bank's secularist-led Palestinian Authority and the Islamist group Hamas that governs Gaza.
U.S. officials have cautioned the West Bank leadership, which depends on Western financial support, that a unilateral bid for U.N. recognition and a union with Hamas would alienate Israel and dim prospects for peace. The U.S. and Israel brand Hamas a terrorist group.
Could I please have the names of the morons in the Obama administration who think this is a bad idea?
*facepalm*
HamHamJ on
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Posts
I'm a big fan of reruns.
And even if you don't have a good reason the American public can be swayed by a good PR campain.
Hey Hey, if you haven't seen it, its new to you!
and this impressed, amused, confused, and just made me shake my head a bit.
Democrats Abroad! || Vote From Abroad
Also, congrats on the 3-0 result over Angola to win the Africa Nations Championship. I just saw the replay.
I understand the conditions in Iraq are the harshest of any Arabic country right now but their politicians were just elected and half of them are doing the job while trying to avoid weekly assassination attempts by the other half. If you're going to start somewhere, start with not electing obvious douchebags.
Protesting having to live in Iraq. There are no easy answers for what's happening there.
This is very true. People, and dare I say societies have very short memories. Historical comparisons can be very useful, but only if you actually put some effort into going through history. Go ahead and compare the current US occupation of Afghanistan to the Soviet occupation in the 80s. I sure do. But you must be very careful about it. Realize that history didn't just comprise these two events, that what happened in Afghanistan before and after the Soviets may in fact be more relevant to whats happening today, even if the comparisons are not as obvious.
Its pretty daunting really. When tackling this stuff I try to read as broadly as possible. Comparisons are useful and perhaps required for a real understanding, but when it comes down to it all we can do is analyze based on whatever data we have available to us, and not be too hasty with our conclusions. I think Hoz is right (if I'm reading him properly), the only people who can really know are the individuals who live through it. The rest of us can sit and read about it, and decide as a group if its right or wrong, while being for the most part delightfully ignorant.
I'm still very confused as to what's going on there. It seems that hundreds of people will die in the coming weeks there if trends continue, but no one in the media seems really able to delineate what exactly is going on.
"What are they protesting?" was my first question. They're basically the only half-way legitimate democracy in the region now, and they just had elections.
You can understand where they're coming from really. I mean is it unreasonable to expect that nearly 8 years after the invasion things would be at least starting to get better?
It's unreasonable to protest if it's nothing more than a random and destructive show of frustration without any aim or agenda.
"Whadda we want!?"
"SOMETHING!"
"When do we want it!?"
"AT SOME POINT IN THE FUTURE!"
On the contrary the security situation alone is worth protesting about. Like I said it's been 8 years now and they're still just as likley to get blown up buying groceries as they were at the start of this mess.
I mean we like to complain and bitch how at risk we are of terrorist attacks here in the west but the fact is for anyone living in Baghdad being murdered going about your daily business is a very real possibility and the government is doing next to nothing about it.
And I'm not trying to minimalize that problem. I am, however, confused as to what specific goal they're after.
It's not really be 8 years that they've had a government in place; the interim government didn't take over until most of the major combat had ended, and the re-shuffling is still ongoing. As it should be. Hell, we in America think our founding fathers hammered out the best goddamed government ever created, and it still took those guys 15 years or so to get their shit straight without the added headache of major political and religious fractitiousness dividing the populace.
Organizing and protesting against this natural process just because all the other hip Arab kids are doing it isn't really all that viable in the context of the situation. The sectarian religious violence in Iraq isn't likely to be solved by vague appeals to its divided sectarian government. It's like if the Tea Party was acting the fool, and then hoping to mobilize GOP legislators to act against it.
Except we're talking about a nation where 1 in 4 people can't read or write.
Well, and you are comparing it to the American revolution for some reason, even though these "headaches" were not the choice of the Iraqi people in the first place. Plus the fact that these "headaches" include having electricity for only a few hours a day, lack of basic sanitation, huge unemployment, and almost zero security. This in a country that was recently largely destroyed by a war and subsequent ethnic cleansing. Plus is still being occupied by foreign troops.
None of these uprisings in the middle east have had leaders, ideologies or detailed sets of reforms. They want their leaders out, at least in the case of the largest scale uprisings. Hardly a solution to the problems these people are facing, as they will discover as reform comes very slowly and painfully, if at all. What are people in Iraq protesting for? A better life. Because they sure aren't getting one the way things are going now.
They've got a fairly legitimate democracy, moreso than just about any other ME nation. What changes that could immediately help them do they seek?
The religious violence is their problem and theirs alone. They have to get their own house in order, and things aren't going to improve there (or anywhere) until the government can agree to A) leave religion the fuck out of all things governmental, and
But the Shia don't want to crackdown on Shia violence, lest they lose popularity in the elections, and the exact same for the Sunni. And the Kurds.
You want a better life, Iraq? Get the church out of your politics.
Funny. This sentiment applies to all kinds of places.
>.>
Well the South hadn't started bombing markets in NYC yet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays_rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fries%27s_Rebellion
Well the problem with religious people is they think that everything could be made better with just a little more religion. Even when religion is the reason everything is in the toilet in the first place.
I like it. The right to assemble and call for the changes you want is not of a much lesser importance than the right to vote, and it's good to test it.
And the region is building and cementing a collective identity, and if Iraqis join that in their own way, then I see it as a very good thing.
Tell you what: every governmental system, moarchy, communism, democracy even dictatorship CAN work. Religions are just the same. Depends on what people make of it.
Think about christian crusades.
It depends on the attitude of the people WITHIN the system, not the system itself. Its simply not an influential factor. No, it isn't. No. No. No, no, no, no.
In the end it depends on the people.
We simply tend to forgget it. An in all honesty... our leaders encourage us to forget it. Because if we remember it they are done with. And it doesn't matter if you are a dictator with military backup, it doesn't matter if you are a king or if you got a stash of nukes.
I think by blaming and branding islamic faith as a "bad" the west spat into the face of EVERY single faithful muslim, not just the extremist ones. In addition to the military operations, setting their homes on fire.
Not a very civilized stance if you look at it objectively.
And whats happening now? They are overthrowing their oppresive rulers. Ironically they make currently more progress in resolving the situation than the west in all the decades before. Personally i think we should give them all the help we can come up with. That is the way to go.
This is a big chance, i hope we don't screw it up this time.
So, Arab world, we will let you handle your own shit and buy oil when you get settle. We won't get involved unless you want us to sit on someone who mass murdered your people and don't want him getting freed or assassinated before his trial/humiliation.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
I love seeing that sign, all over the fucking place. It's the best (<3 Tunis
Blatantly put, yes, that is the idea. You would probably expect the same for your country.
And so the net starts to close in...
All of, like, 8 people were killed in all three events combined. Hardly similar. And those are big events that we teach in history classes the nation over.
12 people die every week in Baghdad brushing their teeth.
They should keep attacking the government until there is nothing left, then go from there. They need to get as far from the old system as they possibly can. This is when revolutions need leaders, or at least some sort of way of organizing themselves. The people should start organizing things themselves, or use ad-hoc elections and put those elected people in charge. It is unwise to overthrow your government, but then let the next government make decisions. At least the Tunesians are seeing this and not taking it laying down. Egypt will need to learn from this too.
Because high oil prices are what's propping up the petro-monarchies? They survived one bout of low oil prices in the 90s, although that was in a less tumultuous time.
*facepalm*