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How are the dead American soldiers counted?

Juergen HubertJuergen Hubert Registered User
edited February 2007 in Debate and/or Discourse
I've heard conspiracy theories that the number of American soldiers dying in Iraq has been grossly underreported by the American government - by up to an order of magnitude. While I don't believe this, I am unsure how to actually counter this.

So how does the number of dead American soldiers get counted, and who does the counting? Would it actually be possible for the American government to underreport and get away with it? Are there any non-government sources that count the dead?

Juergen Hubert on
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  • SuperunknownSuperunknown Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I don't know who counts it but I'm sure all the families of dead soldiers notice when their son/brother/sister/daughter/father/etc. is not added to the death toll. So I guess they keep track.

    Spoiler:
  • EndomaticEndomatic Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I don't know who counts it but I'm sure all the families of dead soldiers notice when their son/brother/sister/daughter/father/etc. is not added to the death toll. So I guess they keep track.

    How do you suppose? They know THEIR son is dead, and possibly their neighbors, or at best a small towns number. Do they know the entire nations? Extremely doubtful as there is really no way of finding out except from the government.

    I'm thinking there's no 3rd party counting the dead bodies.

    I suppose if someone wanted to, they could go count the graves. That'd probably be the best (and about as accurate as you're gonna get) option.

  • Aroused BullAroused Bull Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I don't know how they actually go about it, but presumably the names of soldiers killed in a given conflict are listed. In order to under-report the number of soldiers killed, the government would have to leave names off the list, and as soon as they do that they risk someone saying "Hey, why isn't Johnny on there?" and blowing the whole thing.

  • TiemlerTiemler Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I've heard conspiracy theories that the number of American soldiers dying in Iraq has been grossly underreported by the American government - by up to an order of magnitude. While I don't believe this, I am unsure how to actually counter this.

    How's this...

    There's some truth to the claim that war casualties are under-reported, because for every soldier killed, there are others who receive serious, even disabling, wounds. Also, the news media rarely discusses the death toll among Iraqi personnel working alongside the Coalition, and the deaths of contractors and employees of Private MilitaryCompanies like KBR and Blackwater don't receive much attention, either.

    However, there is no evidence to suggest that the official death toll given for US military personnel is inaccurate. The scale of the tragedy unfolding in that part of the world is overwhelming enough that it has already turned the public against the war and the administration. Clearly, it needs no embellishment, which would only serve to dishonor these young men and women who had their lives taken from them violently.

  • aquabataquabat Registered User
    edited February 2007
    How are they counted?

    CountVonCount.jpg

    ONE DEAD SOLDIER HA HA HA HA!
    TWO DEAD SOLDIER HA HA HA HA!
    THREE DEAD SOLDIER HA HA... im so sorry.

  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I've heard conspiracy theories that the number of American soldiers dying in Iraq has been grossly underreported by the American government - by up to an order of magnitude. While I don't believe this, I am unsure how to actually counter this.

    So how does the number of dead American soldiers get counted, and who does the counting? Would it actually be possible for the American government to underreport and get away with it? Are there any non-government sources that count the dead?

    an order of magnitude of what?

    Anyway, the real issue is that we dont consider casualties that happen in Iraq, as deaths if the deaths occur elsewhere.

    So if someone gets shot, then is flown to Germany for treatment and dies 3 days later, they are not considered in the death toll. Afaik.

    That being said, we tend to save a lot of the soldiers we ship outcountry.

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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Damn you, eidetic memory! Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    An order of magnitude would be what, tens of thousands of deaths? There's no way to cover that up, this side of tinfoil hat land. Unless everyone over there is in on it, reporters on the ground would probably notice that the heavy casualties they are witnessing are not adding up in the reports going back home. Not to mention, I can imagine anti-U.S sources would be all over the mounting death toll.

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  • TiemlerTiemler Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Goumindong wrote:
    So if someone gets shot, then is flown to Germany for treatment and dies 3 days later, they are not considered in the death toll. Afaik.

    That being said, we tend to save a lot of the soldiers we ship outcountry.

    Yeah, those Starlifters aren't flying ambulances, they're flying hospitals.

    The really sad thing, though, is that so many young people are losing limbs to this war. Armor usually keeps the vitals intact, but can't save an arm or a leg from an IED.

  • wenchkillawenchkilla Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Goumindong wrote:
    an order of magnitude of what?

    One order of magnitude = 10^1

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  • GoumindongGoumindong Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    wenchkilla wrote:
    Goumindong wrote:
    an order of magnitude of what?

    One order of magnitude = 10^1
    wiki wrote:
    An order of magnitude is the class of scale or magnitude of any amount, where each class contains values of a fixed ratio to the class preceding it. The ratio most commonly used is 10.

    No, an order of magnitude is any fixed ratio.

    But by an order of magnitude of 10 is way way out of line, no way we have 30,000 U.S. deaths in Iraq.

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  • TiemlerTiemler Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    BTW, a fascinating read. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/20/AR2006102000446.html

    I'd imagine the average soldier has a hell of a lot more respect for Trudeau at this point than their stubborn Commander in Chief with his bullshit photo-ops shaking hands with carefully-selected wounded vets, the nature of whose injuries won't shake up the pro-war stance of Fox News viewers.

  • SavantSavant Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I was under the impression that there was a decently high number of casualties which is probably underreported, but there is still the comparatively small number of deaths. So a lot of things that would have been deaths in earlier wars are reduced to just injuries or maimings. The guerrila fighting style of the insurgency likely lends itself to causing comparably more casualties than deaths as well.

  • Juergen HubertJuergen Hubert Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Goumindong wrote:
    wenchkilla wrote:
    Goumindong wrote:
    an order of magnitude of what?

    One order of magnitude = 10^1
    wiki wrote:
    An order of magnitude is the class of scale or magnitude of any amount, where each class contains values of a fixed ratio to the class preceding it. The ratio most commonly used is 10.

    No, an order of magnitude is any fixed ratio.

    Sorry, I should have been more clear - I'm a physicist, and we always refer to a multiplier of 10 as "an order of magnitude".
    But by an order of magnitude of 10 is way way out of line, no way we have 30,000 U.S. deaths in Iraq.

    That's what I am thinking, too. But how am I going to prove that to the conspiracy theorists? How can the "average man on the street" know if the numbers were counted correctly?

    That's why someone counting the dead independently of the American government would help here.

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  • Gabriel_PittGabriel_Pitt Damn you, eidetic memory! Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    That's what I am thinking, too. But how am I going to prove that to the conspiracy theorists? How can the "average man on the street" know if the numbers were counted correctly?

    That's why someone counting the dead independently of the American government would help here.

    Well, on the one hand, if you're arguing with morons, just give it up, you're never going to over whelm the stupid if they're convinced there are massive cover ups going one.

    As of Mid November last year, there were 152,000 U.S. soldiers deployed to Iraq. A 30,000 body count would mean that we were losing 1 man out of every 5, and such a loss would be too visible on too many levels to suppress (i.e. anti-occupation factions broadcasting their kill estimates, and having footage/other evidence to back it up, embedded reporters noting high casualties, and yet seeing much smaller numbers reported back home, etc).

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  • ALockslyALocksly Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I could swear the AP has it's own count going, usually a day or so ahead of the official Pentagon announcement. I'll hafta to go look.

    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
  • NexusSixNexusSix Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Arguing with a conspiracy theorist is like arguing with a rock. These folks have serious tunnel vision and can't even come to the conclusion that our government is far too fucking inept to actually cover up anything. In short: no UFOs out in Nevada and Pyramid Head does not have monuments built on Mars

    That being said, I have to add that Bush & Co. have done a tremendous job of grossly distorting the actual casualty numbers, especially for the wounded soldiers. I certainly don't know the exact figures for the wounded, but some estimates hover around 30,000 or so--about eight times the number killed. And we're not talking paper cuts--some of these soldiers will be coming home without limbs and needing life-long medical care. I hope that doesn't mean I'll have to pay more taxes to help our wounded soldiers out. :roll:

    You don't hear much about the wounded, especially from Tony Snowjob or the White House--they like to walk that fine line where they admit enough about KIAs to tug at the heartstrings with the self sacrifice and baseball and apple pie and such, but they don't like to give out so much info that Joe Sixpack may stop to wonder, "wow, is it worth having this many casualties?"

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  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Tiemler wrote:
    Also, the news media rarely discusses the death toll among Iraqi personnel working alongside the Coalition, and the deaths of contractors and employees of Private MilitaryCompanies like KBR and Blackwater don't receive much attention, either.
    There was a story about this just recently (which is what I thought the thread was going to focus on). I think it was estimated that an additional 700+ contractors have been killed.

    I think the helicopter crash - and the death of two more contractors - during that battle with the group that was described as a "cult" precipitated the issue.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    I think that's one ofthe reaosns they use contractors. they don't have to add them to the death toll

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    The death toll is under-reported, both because of contractors and not counting deaths of soldiers after they're shipped out of theater. However, I've yet to read anything suggesting that this is a dramatic number (in comparison to reported deaths) so I have a feeling it has more to do with how paperwork is done rather than a deliberate attempt to cover up the "true" number of deaths.

    As far as injuries go, I think the government has been doing everything they can do downplay the number of those.

    EDIT: Also, somebody mentioned that with 152,000 soldiers deployed and 30,000 dead you'd have a 1:5 ratio...this fails to take into account multiple rotations. I'd say the number of individual soldiers who have at one point deployed to Iraq is closer to 400,000 (figure we're on like our fourth full rotation of troops now, and while many are on second/third tours a lot aren't).

    So more like a 1:10 or 1:12 ratio...still impossible to cover up, of course.

    But having 30,000+ wounded...yeah, that's perfectly reasonable. I'd even suggest it might be low.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Last I checked, CNN.com kept a running tally of every fatal casualty, including name, rank, hometown, and how they were killed.

    I believe the deaths were, at one time, under-reported, because they only considered soldiers who were killed as a direct action of the enemy to be casualties, however, that was nowhere near an order of magnitude, and I don't know whether or not they've continued that policy.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited February 2007
    Goumindong wrote:
    wenchkilla wrote:
    Goumindong wrote:
    an order of magnitude of what?

    One order of magnitude = 10^1
    wiki wrote:
    An order of magnitude is the class of scale or magnitude of any amount, where each class contains values of a fixed ratio to the class preceding it. The ratio most commonly used is 10.

    No, an order of magnitude is any fixed ratio.

    Sorry, I should have been more clear - I'm a physicist, and we always refer to a multiplier of 10 as "an order of magnitude".

    Don't worry, everyone knew what you were talking about. Goum's just pedantic.

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  • TankHammerTankHammer Extreme Ghostbuster Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    The shadiest thing in terms of reported deaths I had heard of was the unusual amount of "accidents" you heard about early on. Many soldiers would accidentally flip their hum-vees into a ditch and die or something. I think I heard it was to cover up enemy successes, but it robbed the victim of being counted as 'dying in combat' and that was used to avoid certain responsibilities by the government.

    This is all vague memory from years ago but if someone out there has the full scoop or wants to look it up, be my guest.

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  • Xenocide GeekXenocide Geek Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    aquabat wrote:
    How are they counted?

    CountVonCount.jpg

    ONE DEAD SOLDIER HA HA HA HA!
    TWO DEAD SOLDIER HA HA HA HA!
    THREE DEAD SOLDIER HA HA... im so sorry.

    Oh, I'm going to hell for laughing.

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    bound to fall for you
    oh what can i do
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Goumindong wrote:
    wenchkilla wrote:
    Goumindong wrote:
    an order of magnitude of what?

    One order of magnitude = 10^1
    wiki wrote:
    An order of magnitude is the class of scale or magnitude of any amount, where each class contains values of a fixed ratio to the class preceding it. The ratio most commonly used is 10.
    No, an order of magnitude is any fixed ratio.
    Sorry, I should have been more clear - I'm a physicist, and we always refer to a multiplier of 10 as "an order of magnitude".
    So does pretty much every other English-speaking person on the planet.

  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited February 2007
    The shadiest thing in terms of reported deaths I had heard of was the unusual amount of "accidents" you heard about early on. Many soldiers would accidentally flip their hum-vees into a ditch and die or something. I think I heard it was to cover up enemy successes, but it robbed the victim of being counted as 'dying in combat' and that was used to avoid certain responsibilities by the government.

    This is all vague memory from years ago but if someone out there has the full scoop or wants to look it up, be my guest.
    I doubt there's anything fishy happening there at all - accidents do happen. A couple of Canadians have died in accidents in Afghanistan and I wouldn't be surprised if the rates aren't too far away from being proportional; though you'd expect more with the U.S. in Iraq - more equipment, more (and perhaps less well trained) soldiers, etc.

    By "less well trained" I mean that you have virutally everyone you can spare over there. While Canada is pretty stretched as well, the armed forces can be a little more discerning in who goes and who doesn't.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    The shadiest thing in terms of reported deaths I had heard of was the unusual amount of "accidents" you heard about early on. Many soldiers would accidentally flip their hum-vees into a ditch and die or something. I think I heard it was to cover up enemy successes, but it robbed the victim of being counted as 'dying in combat' and that was used to avoid certain responsibilities by the government.

    This is all vague memory from years ago but if someone out there has the full scoop or wants to look it up, be my guest.
    That's pretty much what I was talking about.

    Get shot by an insurgent, die, you're a casualty; get shot at by an insurgent, then flip your Humvee trying to get away and die, and you're not.

    They argue that accidents will happen anywhere they're stationed, but I don't know of too many places where soldiers go down crowded city roads at 30mph, bumping other cars out of the way, driving over the median and against the traffic, while on patrol.

  • TankHammerTankHammer Extreme Ghostbuster Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Thanatos wrote:
    The shadiest thing in terms of reported deaths I had heard of was the unusual amount of "accidents" you heard about early on. Many soldiers would accidentally flip their hum-vees into a ditch and die or something. I think I heard it was to cover up enemy successes, but it robbed the victim of being counted as 'dying in combat' and that was used to avoid certain responsibilities by the government.

    This is all vague memory from years ago but if someone out there has the full scoop or wants to look it up, be my guest.
    That's pretty much what I was talking about.

    Get shot by an insurgent, die, you're a casualty; get shot at by an insurgent, then flip your Humvee trying to get away and die, and you're not.

    They argue that accidents will happen anywhere they're stationed, but I don't know of too many places where soldiers go down crowded city roads at 30mph, bumping other cars out of the way, driving over the median and against the traffic, while on patrol.
    Thanks for clarifying.

    4icmw.jpg TankHammer | 2zivq6q.jpg
  • siliconenhancedsiliconenhanced __BANNED USERS
    edited February 2007
    This is how it works.

    Let's say there's a squad of nine men, and they get hit by an IED. Two are killed right off the back, one has half of his head blown off and another is almost cut in two by shrapnel. Two receive minor injuries and three, being on the other side of the street, are just rocked by the shockwave.

    Its reported it as two killed, even though the other two aren't long for this world.

    You also have to take in outright lies as well. A friend of mine was an SP in the Air Force stationed in Southern Iraq. He was shot in the back by his roommate, in what was eventually labeled a homicide.

    However, at first it was reported as he was killed in a crossfire. Then it became his roommate was cleaning his M9 pistol, and it went off since he didn't clear it correctly. Then it became he was about to start cleaning his pistol, and it went off. The last iteration was he pulled it out and it went off in his hand. The guy and the other roommate left my friend bleeding out in the room to go get "help" for almost 10 minutes.

    So yeah. And then at the funeral there was no mention made of the way he died, only a lot of empty fluff about how he died because "God called him home". The Air Farce ended up closing the investigation and ruling it an "Accident" until the Pentagon reopened it, appointed two Army investigators, and they started digging. From what I understand, they haven't stopped yet, because everytime they think they've hit bottom, there's always a little more dirt.

  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Tiemler wrote:
    BTW, a fascinating read. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/20/AR2006102000446.html

    I'd imagine the average soldier has a hell of a lot more respect for Trudeau at this point than their stubborn Commander in Chief with his bullshit photo-ops shaking hands with carefully-selected wounded vets, the nature of whose injuries won't shake up the pro-war stance of Fox News viewers.

    It's a rare article that gets me to read the entire thing, especially when the last page is so damn long. But that was a fantastic read.

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Because I mentioned it: here is that CNN casualty count I was talking about. They do, in fact, continue to keep it. I read through the whole thing a couple years ago, when it was considerably shorter.

  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Thanatos wrote:
    The shadiest thing in terms of reported deaths I had heard of was the unusual amount of "accidents" you heard about early on. Many soldiers would accidentally flip their hum-vees into a ditch and die or something. I think I heard it was to cover up enemy successes, but it robbed the victim of being counted as 'dying in combat' and that was used to avoid certain responsibilities by the government.

    This is all vague memory from years ago but if someone out there has the full scoop or wants to look it up, be my guest.
    That's pretty much what I was talking about.

    Get shot by an insurgent, die, you're a casualty; get shot at by an insurgent, then flip your Humvee trying to get away and die, and you're not.

    They argue that accidents will happen anywhere they're stationed, but I don't know of too many places where soldiers go down crowded city roads at 30mph, bumping other cars out of the way, driving over the median and against the traffic, while on patrol.
    Thanks for clarifying.
    I'm pretty sure the people getting killed in accidents are still counted in the toll. Fine, the Pentagon might not, but they still go into the (now) count of 3,080+.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    Andrew_Jay wrote:
    Thanatos wrote:
    The shadiest thing in terms of reported deaths I had heard of was the unusual amount of "accidents" you heard about early on. Many soldiers would accidentally flip their hum-vees into a ditch and die or something. I think I heard it was to cover up enemy successes, but it robbed the victim of being counted as 'dying in combat' and that was used to avoid certain responsibilities by the government.

    This is all vague memory from years ago but if someone out there has the full scoop or wants to look it up, be my guest.
    That's pretty much what I was talking about.

    Get shot by an insurgent, die, you're a casualty; get shot at by an insurgent, then flip your Humvee trying to get away and die, and you're not.

    They argue that accidents will happen anywhere they're stationed, but I don't know of too many places where soldiers go down crowded city roads at 30mph, bumping other cars out of the way, driving over the median and against the traffic, while on patrol.
    Thanks for clarifying.
    I'm pretty sure the people getting killed in accidents are still counted in the toll. Fine, the Pentagon might not, but they still go into the (now) count of 3,080+.
    Are you sure?

    Like, do you have a source?

  • Andrew_JayAndrew_Jay Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Thanatos wrote:
    Andrew_Jay wrote:
    Thanatos wrote:
    The shadiest thing in terms of reported deaths I had heard of was the unusual amount of "accidents" you heard about early on. Many soldiers would accidentally flip their hum-vees into a ditch and die or something. I think I heard it was to cover up enemy successes, but it robbed the victim of being counted as 'dying in combat' and that was used to avoid certain responsibilities by the government.

    This is all vague memory from years ago but if someone out there has the full scoop or wants to look it up, be my guest.
    That's pretty much what I was talking about.

    Get shot by an insurgent, die, you're a casualty; get shot at by an insurgent, then flip your Humvee trying to get away and die, and you're not.

    They argue that accidents will happen anywhere they're stationed, but I don't know of too many places where soldiers go down crowded city roads at 30mph, bumping other cars out of the way, driving over the median and against the traffic, while on patrol.
    Thanks for clarifying.
    I'm pretty sure the people getting killed in accidents are still counted in the toll. Fine, the Pentagon might not, but they still go into the (now) count of 3,080+.
    Are you sure?

    Like, do you have a source?
    No one source, but I'm 100% sure when I've read through the lists/profiles of the casualties from Iraq (usually hosted by CNN or newspapers - not an official source, mind you) there would always be the odd accident in there - APC rolls over into a river, guy in Kuwait killed in an accident while loading aircraft, etc.

    EDIT: on the first page of your CNN link I see two people who died of their injuries stateside, and several "non-combat related injuries".

  • ALockslyALocksly Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Andrew_Jay wrote:
    Thanatos wrote:
    Andrew_Jay wrote:
    Thanatos wrote:
    The shadiest thing in terms of reported deaths I had heard of was the unusual amount of "accidents" you heard about early on. Many soldiers would accidentally flip their hum-vees into a ditch and die or something. I think I heard it was to cover up enemy successes, but it robbed the victim of being counted as 'dying in combat' and that was used to avoid certain responsibilities by the government.

    This is all vague memory from years ago but if someone out there has the full scoop or wants to look it up, be my guest.
    That's pretty much what I was talking about.

    Get shot by an insurgent, die, you're a casualty; get shot at by an insurgent, then flip your Humvee trying to get away and die, and you're not.

    They argue that accidents will happen anywhere they're stationed, but I don't know of too many places where soldiers go down crowded city roads at 30mph, bumping other cars out of the way, driving over the median and against the traffic, while on patrol.
    Thanks for clarifying.
    I'm pretty sure the people getting killed in accidents are still counted in the toll. Fine, the Pentagon might not, but they still go into the (now) count of 3,080+.
    Are you sure?

    Like, do you have a source?
    No one source, but I'm 100% sure when I've read through the lists/profiles of the casualties from Iraq (usually hosted by CNN or newspapers - not an official source, mind you) there would always be the odd accident in there - APC rolls over into a river, guy in Kuwait killed in an accident while loading aircraft, etc.

    Aren't the deathtolls divvied up into overall deaths and than those due to "enemy action"?

    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
  • ALockslyALocksly Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Washington, D.C. (AHN) - According to the latest reports from Administration officials and media sources on Tuesday, at least 3,014 members of the U.S. military have perished since the onslaught of the Iraq war in March 2003.

    A count conducted by the Associated Press says the figure includes seven military civilians, while at least 2,420 died as a result of hostile action, according to the military's numbers.

    What's interesting to note is the count by AP is nine higher than what the Defense Department has calculated.

    For other members of the U.S.-led war, their nations' death tolls have been far less than what American families have had to face. The AP reports the British military has reported 128 deaths; Italy, 33; Ukraine, 18; Poland, 18; Bulgaria, 13; Spain, 11; Denmark, six; El Salvador, five; Slovakia, four; Latvia, three; Estonia, Netherlands and Thailand, two each; and Australia, Hungary, Kazakhstan and Romania, one death each.

    full article: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006096462

    edit: the above numbers were for January 10th

    Yes,... yes, I agree. It's totally unfair that sober you gets into trouble for things that drunk you did.
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited February 2007
    ALocksly wrote:
    Washington, D.C. (AHN) - According to the latest reports from Administration officials and media sources on Tuesday, at least 3,014 members of the U.S. military have perished since the onslaught of the Iraq war in March 2003.

    A count conducted by the Associated Press says the figure includes seven military civilians, while at least 2,420 died as a result of hostile action, according to the military's numbers.

    What's interesting to note is the count by AP is nine higher than what the Defense Department has calculated.

    For other members of the U.S.-led war, their nations' death tolls have been far less than what American families have had to face. The AP reports the British military has reported 128 deaths; Italy, 33; Ukraine, 18; Poland, 18; Bulgaria, 13; Spain, 11; Denmark, six; El Salvador, five; Slovakia, four; Latvia, three; Estonia, Netherlands and Thailand, two each; and Australia, Hungary, Kazakhstan and Romania, one death each.
    full article: http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7006096462

    edit: the above numbers were for January 10th
    Fair enough.

  • Juergen HubertJuergen Hubert Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Well, on the one hand, if you're arguing with morons, just give it up, you're never going to over whelm the stupid if they're convinced there are massive cover ups going one.

    I know what you mean... Still, if I argue a certain point, I'd prefer it if that point was backed solidly by the available facts. It's a bad habit of mine... ;)
    As of Mid November last year, there were 152,000 U.S. soldiers deployed to Iraq. A 30,000 body count would mean that we were losing 1 man out of every 5, and such a loss would be too visible on too many levels to suppress (i.e. anti-occupation factions broadcasting their kill estimates, and having footage/other evidence to back it up, embedded reporters noting high casualties, and yet seeing much smaller numbers reported back home, etc).

    I know that... but still, that kind of argument seems somewhat weak to me. "Someone would have noticed" is a rather vague argument, and I'd much prefer someone do independent fact-checking that doesn't just derive the numbers from Pentagon press statements.

    UrbisBanner.jpg
  • SamiSami Registered User
    edited February 2007
    Oh man, Aquabat...

    I love you so much right now

    Preacher wrote:
    That's the kicker, not only is our healthcare not cutting mustard we are overpaying for shitty healthcare. We have the olive garden of healthcare.
  • clownfoodclownfood packet pusher in the wallsRegistered User regular
    edited February 2007
    aquabat wrote:
    How are they counted?

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    ONE DEAD SOLDIER HA HA HA HA!
    TWO DEAD SOLDIER HA HA HA HA!
    THREE DEAD SOLDIER HA HA... im so sorry.

    Oh, I'm going to hell for laughing.

    Don't worry...I am sitting right next to you on that bus to hell. In fact i am probably on an express because my brother in law is shipping out ot Iraq in 4 months or so. :oops: :cry:

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  • entropykidentropykid Registered User
    edited February 2007
    I've heard conspiracy theories that the number of American soldiers dying in Iraq has been grossly underreported by the American government - by up to an order of magnitude. While I don't believe this, I am unsure how to actually counter this.

    I heard a conspiracy theory that the government may have intentionally lied to get us into Iraq...

    but that's all that is...conspiracy theories.

    We need to have more faith in our government.

    Osama brought down the towers
    Saddam has WMD's somewhere and was an immediate threat
    The people in Iraq/Afghanistan are now free
    Bush won 2000 fair and square
    The Patriot Act is good for everyone
    The liberals are making up all the Iraq death statistics
    Oil and Strategy was never a factor in invading Iraq
    Iran poses a massive immediate nuclear threat

    These are just facts people! To dispute them is just to put yourself with the idiots who think the holocaust didnt happen!

    There hasn't been that many US casualties, and I'm pretty sure
    the civilian casualty has been inflated by those Bush haters.

    :P

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