Help me working out a salary talk.

Aldo

I'm going to do some writing work for a municipality. They don't have a real budget for this, but it will be a great learning opportunity for me. So I figured I would do this even if they couldn't provide me with as much as a free lunch, but it seems there's some money for this after all.

Unfortunately, the guy doing the finance talk is doing it over e-mail (works best as I'm working 40hrs/wk at my regular bullshit job). He wrote I would get €414,- before income tax. He didn't provide any additional information with this, so I'm going to reply with some questions for him to specify his offer.

First: I want to know if this is 414,- per month based on a 40hr work week or a 38 one. Government works funny in this way. Secondly: I want to know how he thinks we're going to calculate this shit. Is he going to pay me by the hour or is it a flat 414 per month regardless of the amount of time I put in. I'm guessing the former, but considering I'll be working from home I wonder how he thinks I should keep track of my hours (among other things, I'm a terrible alt-tabber).

Neither this guy, his co-workers or me has any idea how long this project might take. Someone was going to ask how long it took another guy in another municipality to write their document, but considering we're dealing with the government here, it might take a while for an answer to come in. And I'm jumping up and down to get started on this.

I want to keep the initiative on my side of the virtual table here and come up with a good solution to this. What do you reckon I should offer as a solution? I know for a fact the municipality is short on cash and I'm pretty sure this guy already had to convince some higher ups to get this project off the ground. What would be a workable solution for me to get paid?

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

Assuming work is relatively short term and the text of the email was essentially "we'll pay you X," it sounds like he is offering you a contract for the service, not a salary.

Can you not come up with any better duration of the project than "nobody has any idea?" I mean, creative will always be somewhat loose in terms of adhering to a stated number of hours, but you ought to be able to do better than "who fucking knows, man."

Aldo

I hadn't looked at it like that, could be right too.

My ballpark estimate is 100-150 hours of work, purely based on the size of the document they showed me. But it could take a lot longer. I mean, I was talking with someone at the municipality about when he wants it finished he was like "uh, sometime in the summer--ish?" So that'd imply he thinks it'll take quite some time.

The Crowing One

I've done similar work for non-profits. It certainly sounds like a contract payment and not a wage or other recurring payment. Sounds about on par for what you're describing, if the details are still vague.

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

Well, the things you need to think about are

1) how much time do I anticipate spending on this project

and

2) what kind of hourly rate do I want to bill for the work

Then it becomes pretty easy to decide whether their offer is something acceptable or not.

Of course, you need to know what the offer actually is first, and it doesn't seem like you really do at this point. If the email was as vague as it sounds, it's fine to write back just to clarify.

ed: also, dollar amount isn't the only component of the contract. If somebody offered to pay me for an only vaguely specified amount of work to be completed at an indeterminate time, I'd want to be really sure they were comfortable paying me what I wanted to make per hour so that I could fairly account for the actual work done. If they're offering a lump sum up front, you want to be really clear about what it is they're actually paying you for. Maybe the project sounds like a good deal at 100 hours, but what if it winds up taking you 200?

rockmonkey

Aldo wrote: »

I hadn't looked at it like that, could be right too.

My ballpark estimate is 100-150 hours of work, purely based on the size of the document they showed me. But it could take a lot longer. I mean, I was talking with someone at the municipality about when he wants it finished he was like "uh, sometime in the summer--ish?" So that'd imply he thinks it'll take quite some time.

I'm with the others who think this sounds like a lump sum payment for the project to be completed. As in you give them the finish project and they give you 414. The guy who said he wanted it done by "summer-ish?" most likely isn't basing that off of how long he think the project will take or how much work is involved in the project. It's most likely the time he wants it to be up and ready by.

The beauty of this is it may only take you 80 hours and you may be able to power through the whole thing in two weeks by pulling some late nighters and as long as they're happy you can turn it in and walk off with your 414. Then again it could take 200 hrs like Eat It mentioned, but that is something you need to evaluate and estimate before agreeing to the terms.

This is very similar to how designing a website goes a lot of the time, and a lot of first timers underestimate the number of hours and end up getting paid $4/hr because the terms were 414 for a finished product. The other important aspect is to define exactly what you are providing to them.

If you pound it out and think it's done and they turn around and say, "hey, wait! you were supposed to do X and also Y, and this right here doesn't look like we thought it would so we need you to change it so it's more like Z". You haven't been paid... They want more work out of you before they pay you that same 414 and each hour extra makes the deal less profitable.

Definitely have a written contract the specifies the details, the time frame, the amount to be paid, the scope of the work, and also let them know that anything beyond that scope of work will require a change order. So if they need you to do more then it's an additive change order that you write up and send to them for approval and it increases the amount of your contract by XX for the extra work detailed on the change order. You should write it up, make two copies sign both, send/take to them for approval, they sign both and you each keep one.

In the same vein if they decide they don't want some of the work done as before and you haven't done it yet then there can be a deductive change order that reduces your contract amount, which you'd have to be ok with and approve. Again you each should keep an original signed, detailed, and dated change order along with each having an original signed contract.

Also on the change order don't forget to factor in additional time adding something may take and cause you to go beyond the original stated completion date in the contract. The date of completion can be increased in a change order along with the increase in money.

Terms to use:
Contract
Change Orders (additive/deductive)
Date of Completion
Scope of Work
Contract Amount
Date of Contract

and so on...

It might help to research basic contracts, and these things can vary from area to area, and I'm not sure where you're at or if you guys have Notary Publics where you are, they probably go by another name. Banks, Government offices, and lots of Business here in the States have Notaries. It's just someone who is bonded and legally able to witness a signature. They sign, date, and stamp it with their notary seal and it atests that the signature of the party is real.

Aldo

Thanks for the information, Rockmonkey. Considering the money involved and nature of the assignment I don't think I'll need a notary for any of this. I will mostly function as an intern who just happens to not be in school. I'm not in it for the money, but I will make sure we've got it written down what exactly I'm going to do. Along with most of the other stuff you pointed out. I'll have to think about this.

It's kind of a weird assignment anyway, I got it via my mom who overheard her coworkers complaining about not having time to update a document and she just pointed out that I could probably help out. Then they went right ahead and called me and interviewed me and they were very excited about getting me to do it for them. Like, during the interview they weren't even trying to put up a pokerface, they just flat-out said they wanted me to do it.

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

I don't think you need to go as far as a notary, but be sure to keep a record of what they want and by when, even if it's just some saved emails.

Like rockmonkey says, when the guy says "summerish," he probably doesn't mean "I need the technical copy written by june 1." He means "I need to be able to distribute this flyer/handbook/whatever in mid july." Often (especially in smaller-time situations like this) the person contracting the work doesn't necessarily realize there's a difference between "writer" and "graphic designer" and "printer."