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'ism/'obia and Entertainment: How much is too much?

135678

Posts

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited April 2011
    mrt144 wrote: »
    I think a large part of it is not being accepted by either friends or family who still hold onto traditions as they become more westernized yet also not being accepted into western society solely based on race.

    I guess, to me, that reflects just another difference that I find peculiar in Asian transplant communities in comparison to other groups. I have friends that are Quebecquois, Persian, German, Mexican, Puerto Rican, and Irish who have transplanted to the US and have children, and they've been taught from a very young age that assimilation is the key to success. None even speak native languages in the home, and many of them would chastise their kids if they started acting "too ethnic."

    It doesn't seem a lot of that carries over to the Asian community. My big dumb jingoist American brain always goes, "If you're afraid of becoming American, you probably should have considered that before coming to America."

    Is this just anecdotal, or is there any actual data that bears out the idea that Asian transplant communities - presumably South Asian and East Asian here (incl., Filipino migrants, say), although perhaps you just mean the latter - are substantially more insular than other immigrant communities?

    There is a 'model minority' stereotype at play here that may effectively encourage some non-assimilation. If you believe, as the host white community has been demonstrated via survey to believe, that your culture grants you some advantages (of discipline, or whatever) - why would you set out to change it?

    In the US, 'model minority' groups compromise East Asian migrants and Jewish migrants. Does the Jewish community set out to erase its distinctive nature?

    ronya on
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  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    Again, compare it to Star Trek, where the executives actively decided that the woman shouldn't get to captain the ship even though random guys way lower in rank had done it.
    There's a twenty-year gap there. Star Trek was ridiculously progressive for its time, in 'cism if not as much in gender. The most contemporaneous example, Next Generation, had at least two episodes with Crusher on bridge watch (and the finale had her captaining her own ship), and one episode that particularly stands out in my memory regarding Troi testing for (and eventually gaining) command rank.

    Salvation122 on
  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Yea you can't claim a show isn't progressive just because it isn't progressive by modern standards.

    DS9 was more progressive than TNG, but then again most of TNG is from the 1980s.

    override367 on
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Well, half of it. It ran from 87-94.

    Salvation122 on
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    mrt144 wrote: »
    mrt144 wrote: »
    The thing that's most striking is that the whole attitude of "That's just the way it is" doesn't even allow for a feminist revolution culturally. In the cultural framework of the western world, the liberalization of man logically follows that the same liberalizations flow into every nook and cranny for everyone to enjoy.

    I think that deferrence to fatalism/authority/tradition is what makes cultural revolutions so hard in Asia, even in places where oppression is open and blatant, like China.

    But it is kind of a stupid circular argument. You can't change things because it might change things?


    For such a markedly idiosyncratic region, Asian nations are strangely concerned with maintaining their cultural identity, even if it's horrible shit.

    IT's interesting that you mention this because this is a common issue that a lot of my chinese friends do struggle with being mostly 1st and 2nd generation Americans. They really are afraid of losing the cultural identity of being chinese while trying to enjoy the benefits of living in a more liberalized western society. They get pressure from family and friends to not lose their identity as Chinese Americans even as adults.

    Maybe you could help me out then.


    Just what exactly are they afraid of losing about their Chinese identity? As the jingoist outsider, I see:
    - questionable hygeine habits
    - weird (possibly dangerous) food
    - spuriously-motivated beliefs about generational and parental authority
    - inferior standard of living compared to Western analogs
    - misogyny
    - interpersonal skills incompatable with Western sensibilities


    I'm a southern/southwestern American of Scots and Swedish decent. Anything I lost from my cultural heritage was probably on purpose, and for the better.

    Is this your idea of an April Fools' post? I'm trying to give you an out here, because the last time I heard a person express such openly racist and balls-out ignorant sentiments, I was visiting an elderly relative in a dementia ward.

    "The chinese are dirty and their food is weird"? My god, you actually managed to top "Ray Bradbury is a social deviant because he didn't drive". I didn't think that was possible!

    I'm glad someone already had the nous to point out the many flaws in your culture in an attempt to give you some perspective, but I get the feeling it'll just whoosh straight over your head.

    The Cat on
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  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    And may I just say that its a pretty bold move to criticise another culture for being misogynist when you've actually started whole threads designed to denigrate female patients of yours whose life choices you don't approve of.

    The Cat on
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  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The Cat wrote: »
    And may I just say that its a pretty bold move to criticise another culture for being misogynist when you've actually started whole threads designed to denigrate female patients of yours whose life choices you don't approve of.

    Just because something is directed at women doesn't inherently make it anti-feminist.

    Atomika on
  • 21stCentury21stCentury Call me Pixel, or Pix for short! [They/Them]Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The Cat wrote: »

    "The chinese are dirty and their food is weird"? My god, you actually managed to top "Ray Bradbury is a social deviant because he didn't drive". I didn't think that was possible!

    I'm glad someone already had the nous to point out the many flaws in your culture in an attempt to give you some perspective, but I get the feeling it'll just whoosh straight over your head.

    Their food isn't just weird, it's weird and probably also dangerous to eat. Which is why diabetes and colo-rectal cancer (amongst other diseases) rates skyrocketed when western food got introduced in China. Also, their traditions are different from ours. Did you know they don't celebrate the New Year in January? Maybe it's because they can't read our calendars and don't know when it's really the new year!

    But seriously, at least he didn't use hurtful terms. I'm mostly hoping it's because he doesn't refer them as such.
    The Cat wrote: »
    And may I just say that its a pretty bold move to criticise another culture for being misogynist when you've actually started whole threads designed to denigrate female patients of yours whose life choices you don't approve of.

    Just because something is directed at women doesn't inherently make it anti-feminist.

    Are you serious? Can't you see, at the very least, how that's a bad thing to do? Denigrating your patients for life choices you don't approve of?

    21stCentury on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    ronya wrote: »
    Is this just anecdotal, or is there any actual data that bears out the idea that Asian transplant communities - presumably South Asian and East Asian here (incl., Filipino migrants, say), although perhaps you just mean the latter - are substantially more insular than other immigrant communities?

    I don't if I'd say they were more insular, but they certainly seem to place a higher emphasis on retaining cultural values and norms than immigrants from other groups. This is completely anecdotal, as I don't even begin to know what data would support or refute such a position. My experience is limited to my Chinese friends in New York, my wife's landlord in New York, my Chinese uncle, and the Asian doctors and nurses I work with. But there's a commonality of experience with them that I feel fairly safe in extrapolating into a community-wide phenomenon. I could be wrong.
    There is a 'model minority' stereotype at play here that may effectively encourage some non-assimilation. If you believe, as the host white community has been demonstrated via survey to believe, that your culture grants you some advantages (of discipline, or whatever) - why would you set out to change it?

    That's a good point, and probably why there is still such a seeming disconnect between 1st-generation Asian-Americans and their immigrant parents. But in regards to the OP, you have to do some pretty serious rhetorical gymnastics to justify something like overt misogyny as being "culturally beneficial."

    In the US, 'model minority' groups compromise East Asian migrants and Jewish migrants. Does the Jewish community set out to erase its distinctive nature?

    Actually, they did, and it still goes on today, though not as much. As well, it seems to depend greatly on religious impetus. Jews immigrating to the US routinely would change their family name to seem less semetic; Walter Matthau, Gene Wilder, Jack Benny, Lauren Bacall all changed their names. Even more modern entertainers like Jon Stewart, Natalie Portman, and Winona Ryder don't use their real last names. It seems that Jews that are interested in being more accessible to Western audiences do indeed wish to jettison some part of their nature.

    Atomika on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The Cat wrote: »
    And may I just say that its a pretty bold move to criticise another culture for being misogynist when you've actually started whole threads designed to denigrate female patients of yours whose life choices you don't approve of.

    Just because something is directed at women doesn't inherently make it anti-feminist.

    Are you serious? Can't you see, at the very least, how that's a bad thing to do? Denigrating your patients for life choices you don't approve of?

    If I recall, as the issue The Cat is referring to came up over a year ago I think, I made the statement that I didn't approve of women who they and their children were on government aid choosing to have more children. I didn't extend the notion over the accidentally pregnant or any other fringe concern, just women who needed federal or state money to pay for their current children selectively choosing to have more children.

    And I still stand by that.

    Atomika on
  • LeitnerLeitner Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Are you serious? Can't you see, at the very least, how that's a bad thing to do? Denigrating your patients for life choices you don't approve of?

    As much as I don't want to defend the rest of what he said, unless you're going to pretend all choices are equally valid, then yes depending on the circumstances this isn't a bad thing. Being pregnant at fourteen (IIRC this is what the referenced topic was about?) is always a stupid choice.

    Now there reason for making that descision is a huge influx of enviromental pressures, but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't a choice we as a society should encourage.

    Leitner on
  • 21stCentury21stCentury Call me Pixel, or Pix for short! [They/Them]Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Leitner wrote: »
    Are you serious? Can't you see, at the very least, how that's a bad thing to do? Denigrating your patients for life choices you don't approve of?

    As much as I don't want to defend the rest of what he said, unless you're going to pretend all choices are equally valid, then yes depending on the circumstances this isn't a bad thing. Being pregnant at fourteen (IIRC this is what the referenced topic was about?) is always a stupid choice.

    Now there reason for making that descision is a huge influx of enviromental pressures, but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't a choice we as a society should encourage.

    Being pregnant at 14 isn't usually a conscious choice, though, is it?

    21stCentury on
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Leitner wrote: »
    Are you serious? Can't you see, at the very least, how that's a bad thing to do? Denigrating your patients for life choices you don't approve of?

    As much as I don't want to defend the rest of what he said, unless you're going to pretend all choices are equally valid, then yes depending on the circumstances this isn't a bad thing. Being pregnant at fourteen (IIRC this is what the referenced topic was about?) is always a stupid choice.

    Now there reason for making that descision is a huge influx of enviromental pressures, but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't a choice we as a society should encourage.

    Being pregnant at 14 isn't usually a conscious choice, though, is it?

    You'd be surprised. I went to school with a girl who had baby at 13.


    The gravity of the situation varies from cultural group to cultural group, but much more strongly and uniform along economic scales.

    Atomika on
  • bezerk bobbezerk bob Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Leitner wrote: »
    Are you serious? Can't you see, at the very least, how that's a bad thing to do? Denigrating your patients for life choices you don't approve of?

    As much as I don't want to defend the rest of what he said, unless you're going to pretend all choices are equally valid, then yes depending on the circumstances this isn't a bad thing. Being pregnant at fourteen (IIRC this is what the referenced topic was about?) is always a stupid choice.

    Now there reason for making that descision is a huge influx of enviromental pressures, but that doesn't change the fact that it isn't a choice we as a society should encourage.

    Being pregnant at 14 isn't usually a conscious choice, though, is it?

    Not to derail the discussion, but the lady in question was over 18. The issue was her choosing having more kids while on welfare.

    bezerk bob on
    You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are. -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Everything I did at 14 was stupid.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    It was another anecdote, a lot more recent than that, but also your fixation of my mention of it is a derailment. I'm not willing to let you misdirect attention away from your appalling racism. Let's talk about that. What do you think your chinese workmates would say to you if they saw what you were writing here? I bet they'd be super into you. Maybe they'd throw you a party, with nice red firecrackers and lanterns, but not those freaky wonton things.

    And the jewish name thing, are you nuts? There's already a stereotype that the scary scary jews control the media on top of ye olde run of the mill anti-semitism to deal with in the US. I can see wanting a separate name for use in public. Lets add to that the fact that a huge number of actors (yes, even white folk!) use names different to their birthnames for reasons of a) personal branding, b) the requirement to have a unique moniker for SAG membership and c) plain ol' boring privacy.

    And then of course there's the little fact that many children of immigrants grew up with an anglicised surname, because US immigration officials had a habit of 'fixing' immigrant surnames without asking the people involved first. Many of those who didn't receive this little welcome gift from the state eventually simplified their names for the benefit of the rubes they'd moved in with, who couldn't cope with learning how to pronounce their real names and got all het up about words like Nguyen.

    Jesus christ on a cracker you just don't know any damn thing, do you.

    The Cat on
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  • bezerk bobbezerk bob Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    My view on media that displays isms/obias is that you have to accept that anything written any length of time ago is going to express the prejudices of the time it was written/filmed in. I accept that drawing a line in the sand wrt what is too much is going to be a personal prefrence, and realise that other people are going to have a different view.

    bezerk bob on
    You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are. -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The Cat wrote: »
    It was another anecdote, a lot more recent than that, but also a derailment. I'm not willing to let you misdirect attention away from your appalling racism, though. Let's talk about that. What do you think your chinese workmates would say to you if they saw what you were writing here? I bet they'd be super into you. Maybe they'd throw you a party, with nice red firecrackers and lanterns, but not those freaky wonton things.

    And the jewish name thing, are you nuts? There's already a stereotype that the scary scary jews control the media on top of ye olde run of the mill anti-semitism to deal with in the US. I can see wanting a separate name for use in public. Lets add to that the fact that a huge number of actors (yes, even white folk!) use names different to their birthnames for reasons of a) personal branding, b) the requirement to have a unique moniker for SAG membership and c) plain ol' boring privacy.

    And then of course there's the little fact that many children of immigrants grew up with an anglicised surname, because US immigration officials had a habit of 'fixing' immigrant surnames without asking the people involved first. Many of those who didn't receive this little welcome gift from the state eventually simplified their names for the benefit of the rubes they'd moved in with, who couldn't cope with learning how to pronounce their real names and got all het up about words like Nguyen.

    Jesus christ on a cracker you just don't know any damn thing, do you.

    You're just always on, aren't you?

    Atomika on
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    On the ball? With a historical clue? An appreciation for rather than a fear of difference? You betcha, baby. Really, there's no way to back out gracefully from this one. Just apologise, and maybe step away from the keyboard for a bit. I think you've hit your self-embarrassment quota for the month.

    The Cat on
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  • bezerk bobbezerk bob Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Where does everyone draw the line with other peoples choice in media? Do you try not to judge people, judge them by your own standards or some other metric? I know i lost some respect for someone at work who mentioned that they listen to john laws (terrible radio show, old man complains about everything), was that fair of me? What about in the states - do you make a point of avoiding ppl who watch fox news or listen to glen beck?

    bezerk bob on
    You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are. -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The entertainment that someone consumes really shouldn't be grounds for judging them on a personal or ethical level. In a perfect world, anyway.

    At the same time, things like Glenn Beck or FOX News aren't really entertainment.

    If I saw a dog eared copy of the Turner Diaries on someone's shelf, there are certain implications there, unfortunately. Entertainment and propaganda are intimately linked in a lot of cases.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • bezerk bobbezerk bob Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    The entertainment that someone consumes really shouldn't be grounds for judging them on a personal or ethical level. In a perfect world, anyway.

    At the same time, things like Glenn Beck or FOX News aren't really entertainment.

    If I saw a dog eared copy of the Turner Diaries on someone's shelf, there are certain implications there, unfortunately. Entertainment and propaganda are intimately linked in a lot of cases.

    In a perfect world people wouldnt be judged on thier choices in entertainment. But i must admit i find it hard not to judge someone a bit if they like some of the sitcom dross available on tv. Stuff full of awful 'men are like this, women are like this' tropes.

    bezerk bob on
    You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are. -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    Depends on their reasons for consuming the media in question, I think. Although I must draw the line somewhere. I mean, I can tolerate Twilight fans even if I think they're stupid, but Andrew Bolt fans need to be kept in some kind of zoo so they can't hurt other people.

    As for the original question - I can give a lot of stories a pass if they were written at a time when the sentiment being expressed was normalised and accepted - so Kipling gets a pass. That doesn't mean we get a pass to consume them uncritically, though. That said, my tolerance for particular tales drops when people willingly and repeatedly fail to engage them critically in favour of using them to prop up their own bigotry and ego, so I don't generally have much time for Nietzche.

    The Cat on
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  • bezerk bobbezerk bob Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The Cat wrote: »
    Depends on their reasons for consuming the media in question, I think. Although I must draw the line somewhere. I mean, I can tolerate Twilight fans even if I think they're stupid, but Andrew Bolt fans need to be kept in some kind of zoo so they can't hurt other people.

    As for the original question - I can give a lot of stories a pass if they were written at a time when the sentiment being expressed was normalised and accepted - so Kipling gets a pass. That doesn't mean we get a pass to consume them uncritically, though. That said, my tolerance for particular tales drops when people willingly and repeatedly fail to engage them critically in favour of using them to prop up their own bigotry and ego, so I don't generally have much time for Nietzche.

    Is that a criticism of Nietzche or of people who read/espouse Nietzche? Just curious, i have a passing familiarity with what he was on about but havent read anything directly.

    bezerk bob on
    You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are. -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    More the people who read him. They tend to come over all fascist on account of not having paid attention.

    The Cat on
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  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    bezerk bob wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    The entertainment that someone consumes really shouldn't be grounds for judging them on a personal or ethical level. In a perfect world, anyway.

    At the same time, things like Glenn Beck or FOX News aren't really entertainment.

    If I saw a dog eared copy of the Turner Diaries on someone's shelf, there are certain implications there, unfortunately. Entertainment and propaganda are intimately linked in a lot of cases.

    In a perfect world people wouldnt be judged on thier choices in entertainment. But i must admit i find it hard not to judge someone a bit if they like some of the sitcom dross available on tv. Stuff full of awful 'men are like this, women are like this' tropes.
    I would say that that kind of thing is really only a problem if the viewer is watching it uncritically. If they are simply absorbing the show and not thinking about it, then they can be doing harm to their worldview if they start taking in and incorporating bullshit themes of whatever nature.

    But if someone is watching a show where the primary vector for "comedy" is a shrill wife constantly harping on a decent, likeable husband (or from obvious racial stereotypes, etc) and when pushed they say something to the effect of "it's funny because it's true" then there's a problem.

    People derive a substantial amount of their worldview through the media they consume. If they're just taking all of that at face value, then they can end up pretty messed up in the head because of it.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • bezerk bobbezerk bob Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    bezerk bob wrote: »
    OptimusZed wrote: »
    The entertainment that someone consumes really shouldn't be grounds for judging them on a personal or ethical level. In a perfect world, anyway.

    At the same time, things like Glenn Beck or FOX News aren't really entertainment.

    If I saw a dog eared copy of the Turner Diaries on someone's shelf, there are certain implications there, unfortunately. Entertainment and propaganda are intimately linked in a lot of cases.

    In a perfect world people wouldnt be judged on thier choices in entertainment. But i must admit i find it hard not to judge someone a bit if they like some of the sitcom dross available on tv. Stuff full of awful 'men are like this, women are like this' tropes.
    I would say that that kind of thing is really only a problem if the viewer is watching it uncritically. If they are simply absorbing the show and not thinking about it, then they can be doing harm to their worldview if they start taking in and incorporating bullshit themes of whatever nature.

    But if someone is watching a show where the primary vector for "comedy" is a shrill wife constantly harping on a decent, likeable husband (or from obvious racial stereotypes, etc) and when pushed they say something to the effect of "it's funny because it's true" then there's a problem.

    People derive a substantial amount of their worldview through the media they consume. If they're just taking all of that at face value, then they can end up pretty messed up in the head because of it.

    I think that TV is much easier to 'absorb', just because its so easy to sit down and tune out, soaking up what whats shown to you. Because of its immersive nature it is harder to watch critically. Does anyone know if there is anything to what i just wrote? or am i talking nonsense?

    Edit: That seems odd The Cat, wasnt Nietzche very individualist? someone who is anti "herd mentality" would be hard to parse with an authoritarian view.

    bezerk bob on
    You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are. -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
  • zeenyzeeny Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    As far as I'm concerned there is no line. There is poor taste, there is entertainment that could make one uncomfortable, but I'm fine with people watching anything and everything as long as they are actually capable of not modifying/building their personal views and positions based on Cartoon Network or HBO.

    zeeny on
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The Cat wrote: »
    On the ball? With a historical clue? An appreciation for rather than a fear of difference? You betcha, baby. Really, there's no way to back out gracefully from this one. Just apologise, and maybe step away from the keyboard for a bit. I think you've hit your self-embarrassment quota for the month.

    He doesn't have one. He's clearly intelligent enough to know his views are offensive, that's why he brings them here.

    At this point I just want people to realise what he's like so they don't get all het up trying to reason with him.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    When I say fascist I'm more referencing that stuff about Supermen than the state-control stuff. I don't know, I'm not articulate enough to get into Nietzche without a pile of references next to me. But a lot of his fans tend to be douches, basically.

    The Cat on
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  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I'm sorry, I thought this was the thread for discussing the merits of cultural norms, not the Handwringing Echochamber of Cultural Relativism.

    Atomika on
  • bezerk bobbezerk bob Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Fair call, anyone who falls back on just one philosopher tends to be a bell end in any case.

    bezerk bob on
    You can only drink 30 or 40 glasses of beer a day, no matter how rich you are. -- Colonel Adolphus Busch
  • poshnialloposhniallo Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The Cat wrote: »
    When I say fascist I'm more referencing that stuff about Supermen than the state-control stuff. I don't know, I'm not articulate enough to get into Nietzche without a pile of references next to me. But a lot of his fans tend to be douches, basically.

    He's been co-opted by fascists and cryptofascists, I think. A lot of what I read of his was fine.

    poshniallo on
    I figure I could take a bear.
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Registered User, Moderator mod
    edited April 2011
  • The CatThe Cat Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited April 2011
    poshniallo wrote: »
    The Cat wrote: »
    When I say fascist I'm more referencing that stuff about Supermen than the state-control stuff. I don't know, I'm not articulate enough to get into Nietzche without a pile of references next to me. But a lot of his fans tend to be douches, basically.

    He's been co-opted by fascists and cryptofascists, I think. A lot of what I read of his was fine.

    Yeah, well, same. Actually, Ian Rankin did an interesting character in one of his standalone novels that was a bit in love with Nietzche for all the wrong reasons. The character was nowhere near as bad as some of the internet fans I've run across, but you could really see how it was feeding some of his personal problems rather than helping.

    Ian Rankin fans are all right by me.

    The Cat on
    tmsig.jpg
  • OptimusZedOptimusZed Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    bezerk bob wrote: »
    I think that TV is much easier to 'absorb', just because its so easy to sit down and tune out, soaking up what whats shown to you. Because of its immersive nature it is harder to watch critically. Does anyone know if there is anything to what i just wrote? or am i talking nonsense?
    I don't really have any hard data to back this up, but the idea that television as a medium lends itself to uncritical consumption while anything that involves written text is inherently more likely to be approached critically has always struck me as crap.

    One is basically the other with an extra automatic mental subroutine running to turn text into thought. That's it. You can pick up stupid ideas from books just as easily as you can from television. Maybe even moreso because of this idea that books are inherently more respectable and easier to parse critically.

    Media is media. If you approach any given avenue of it without constantly questioning the assumptions it's making, you're going to have the same result.

    OptimusZed on
    We're reading Rifts. You should too. You know you want to. Now With Ninjas!

    They tried to bury us. They didn't know that we were seeds. 2018 Midterms. Get your shit together.
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited April 2011
    As for Robotech and sexism, I guess it depends on the person. It's like anything else - e.g. I can't enjoy 24 because of the underlying politics, but I can enjoy Lord of the Rings despite the lack of female characters. Probably because I'm a guy, sadly.

    I'm the reverse. I don't care about politics because of an overexposure to victorian fiction when I was younger, but when female characters are written dumb as fuck or not being funny (the not being funny one is the one that gets me - it's SO RARE female characters get funny lines. I have no idea what's going on there, but ever since I noticed it it gets more and more ridiculous every time I read a book) it just gets on my nerves.

    It's got the point where not being given the choice to play a female character in games annoys me as well just because of how often you get stuck with a boring male protagonist.

    When I say fascist I'm more referencing that stuff about Supermen than the state-control stuff. I don't know, I'm not articulate enough to get into Nietzche without a pile of references next to me. But a lot of his fans tend to be douches, basically.

    The quality of Nietszche depends on period. However, the ubermensch concept is oddly not as repellent as one might think.

    surrealitycheck on
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  • AtomikaAtomika Live fast and get fucked or whatever Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    I'm the reverse. I don't care about politics because of an overexposure to victorian fiction when I was younger, but when female characters are written dumb as fuck or not being funny (the not being funny one is the one that gets me - it's SO RARE female characters get funny lines. I have no idea what's going on there, but ever since I noticed it it gets more and more ridiculous every time I read a book) it just gets on my nerves.

    It's got the point where not being given the choice to play a female character in games annoys me as well just because of how often you get stuck with a boring male protagonist.

    I like seeing more female characters as options in games, but it's fairly standard for games that don't allow that choice to simply revert to default stereotypes. If your character has to be male, odds are he's going to a grim hulking murderer or kung-fu expert with silver hair. If female, she'll probably be a humorless asskicker that employs some kind of gymnastics in her killing style of choice. That's why I liked Dragon Age, as it really gave a lot of different ways to externally and internall develop your own unique character.


    That said, there is a startling dearth of successful comediennes working today (though growing, thankfully), and I wonder how much corrolary that has with the lack of interesting female player-characters.

    Atomika on
  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    Robotech is definitely antiquated. Especially the Macross chapter. It gets a bit better, from a misogyny standpoint, in Masters, and slightly better than that in New Generation. All that said, the main female characters still tend display one of the following flaws:

    Incessant nagging while being wrong (the Lisa Hayes factor)

    or

    Naivete and ignorance to the world around them (the Minmei factor)

    Thankfully, it happens less, and the women are shown as being more competent overall.

    That said, the worst offender of the series, for me, is Dana Sterling. She's the daughter of Max and Miriya of the Macross chapter, leader of the 15th tactical squadron and main character of Masters. She spends a good deal of her time swooning over Zor Prime, trying to get Marie and Sean together, and otherwise acting like a ditz (probably because she's blonde... go go gadget stereotype!). She ruins Masters for me. I can't help but wonder how she was portrayed in the original Japanese series. I can't be much worse than in Robotech, can it?

    Nightslyr on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited April 2011
    The Cat wrote: »
    It was another anecdote, a lot more recent than that, but also a derailment. I'm not willing to let you misdirect attention away from your appalling racism, though. Let's talk about that. What do you think your chinese workmates would say to you if they saw what you were writing here? I bet they'd be super into you. Maybe they'd throw you a party, with nice red firecrackers and lanterns, but not those freaky wonton things.

    And the jewish name thing, are you nuts? There's already a stereotype that the scary scary jews control the media on top of ye olde run of the mill anti-semitism to deal with in the US. I can see wanting a separate name for use in public. Lets add to that the fact that a huge number of actors (yes, even white folk!) use names different to their birthnames for reasons of a) personal branding, b) the requirement to have a unique moniker for SAG membership and c) plain ol' boring privacy.

    And then of course there's the little fact that many children of immigrants grew up with an anglicised surname, because US immigration officials had a habit of 'fixing' immigrant surnames without asking the people involved first. Many of those who didn't receive this little welcome gift from the state eventually simplified their names for the benefit of the rubes they'd moved in with, who couldn't cope with learning how to pronounce their real names and got all het up about words like Nguyen.

    Jesus christ on a cracker you just don't know any damn thing, do you.

    You're just always on, aren't you?
    It's a little known fact about The Cat that if she doesn't get her daily quota of outrage and self-righteousness, she'll actually die.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
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