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[Star Trek] Let's make sure history never forgets the name Enterprise

RobmanRobman Registered User regular
edited July 2011 in Debate and/or Discourse
Gary-Robert-Star-Trek.jpg

So star trek is kind of a thing

Personally I think TNG was the greatest incarnation of Trek and indeed one of the finest science fiction shows ever made. Maybe it's Picard giving his speech at the end of Yesterday's Enterprise

SKIP TO 8:00 FOR GREAT SUCCESS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52KFUdU1jaQ&feature=player_detailpage#t=482s

Other times it's exploring the idea of learning to communicate with a truly alien race

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukMNfTnI5M8&feature=related

There are also those who think DS9 better, for its strong serial presentation. For the nerdy nerds, you can see Ron Moore's progression from the "actions have consequences" feeling in TNG, to the arcing stories of DS9, into BSG.

The appeal of star trek for many is the idea that humans will one day be able to wander the stars and be able to satisfy our basic needs and turn our attention to what drives our curiosity - is it to be architects? To be explorers? To run a restaurant? To peel potatoes? To swab out the Holodeck after Riker visits it?

Robman on
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Posts

  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I wonder if the success of the 2009 movie will encourage them to make a new TV Series?

    RMS Oceanic on
  • The ListenerThe Listener Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I wonder if the success of the 2009 movie will encourage them to make a new TV Series?

    If they do, I hope it will be a DS9 styled story arc oriented series. I've been watching Deep Space 9 a lot as of late, and I've quite been enjoying how episodes seem to 'matter' more in that series, while in TNG and others it just seemed that once an episode was finished, there was no lingering impact to it, that things were wrapped up TOO tidy and conveniently.

    The Listener on
  • RobmanRobman Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    There's a balance. DS9 felt too much a slave to its narrative arc - episodes that weren't about the Dominion War didn't make sense, given the Dominion's nemesis role. Seasons 4-7 of TNG had recurring characters, and characters referred to previous events in such a way that the show was still very approachable to new viewers while rewarding past viewership.

    Robman on
  • BolthornBolthorn Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The wife and I are currently watching through all of Deep Space Nine. This is the same woman who did not like Star Trek at all when we first met, dated, fell in love, married, and bought a house.
    Then one day it just sort of clicked. It's mostly her idea to be watching. We're in season 3 now. I think we just finished up episode 19 last night. Good times.

    Bolthorn on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Also every series but DS9 is coming to netflix instant on July first.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • Al_watAl_wat Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Im finding i enjoy watching DS9 the most these days. I've watched all the star treks to death, seen all the episodes a million times.

    Don't get me wrong though I like TNG. I think the problem is I'm even more familiar with these episodes than I am DS9. Also DS9 has more of a "real" feeling to it, I don't know how to describe it. Not even just the Dominion arc.

    Although... that said, TNG has some really awesome episodes that are I guess philosophical in nature that I really enjoy.

    Al_wat on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    DS9 is the best show, possibly because it is not really Star Trek.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • THEPAIN73THEPAIN73 Shiny. Real shiny.Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Also every series but DS9 is coming to netflix instant on July first.

    WHAT

    Whelp, I better work my way through BSG now.

    THEPAIN73 on
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  • PriestPriest Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The only problem they're running into now is the massive Retcon issue. Enterprise introduced a metric fuck-ton of retcon.

    The next question is which Universe will they pursue: The alternate universe as directed by JJ Abrams, or the Original Universe?

    Priest on
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Watching the various series, I'm struck by just how each one is really a creation of its time. Star Trek's not really about the future, IMO, it's about the present, only in space.

    Modern Man on
    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I like DS9, but I prefer Star Trek in single episode stories(with continuity over the series). Works better for the parable/philosophical aspect. Some amount of story arc is fine, but I felt the dominion war to be a little fatiguing after a while.

    On the other hand it gave us this;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89WcIwjlQxA

    Lucid on
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Priest wrote: »
    The only problem they're running into now is the massive Retcon issue. Enterprise introduced a metric fuck-ton of retcon.

    The next question is which Universe will they pursue: The alternate universe as directed by JJ Abrams, or the Original Universe?

    I suspect they'll follow the reboot. In either case, It will probably have a very different feel to the TNG-ENT era. TV has evolved in the six years since the lamest finale ever, so it would be interesting to see what lessons they use in any new series.

    RMS Oceanic on
  • ThomamelasThomamelas Only one man can kill this many Russians. Bring his guitar to me! Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Priest wrote: »
    The only problem they're running into now is the massive Retcon issue. Enterprise introduced a metric fuck-ton of retcon.

    The next question is which Universe will they pursue: The alternate universe as directed by JJ Abrams, or the Original Universe?

    I suspect they'll follow the reboot. In either case, It will probably have a very different feel to the TNG-ENT era. TV has evolved in the six years since the lamest finale ever, so it would be interesting to see what lessons they use in any new series.

    Lesson one: Opening shot will be Brannon Braga getting a hell of a beating.

    Thomamelas on
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Here's an interesting topic I've been musing on, thanks to watching lots of SF Debris reviews: If one could do Voyager all over again from the start, how would one improve it and avoid the mistakes it made?

    An angle I would be interested in would be that Janeway was actually First Officer and had to take charge after the Captain was killed. Especially if you make it so Voyager was her first taste of Command after being a Science Officer, that would make an interesting arc where she had to cope with the power unexpectedly thrust on her.

    RMS Oceanic on
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Thomamelas wrote: »
    Lesson one: Opening shot will be Brannon Braga getting a hell of a beating.
    My idea for an opening shot of a new Star Trek series goes something like this:

    *Picard and Spock looking at a starship out to a window on DS9*
    "Nice new ship. They say they will call it the 'USS Voyager'. The very first starship called Voyager in Starfleet. I hear they're giving to captain Janeway... err I mean Wayjane. My bad. There has never, ever been a captain called Janeway in Starfleet, or another ship called Voyager before."
    "By the way, have you tried the new holo-novel that's all the rage? About the fictional adventures of a fictional captain Archer on a fictional Enterprise that's the fictional first warp-5 ship of Earth. Troi and Riker say it's really cool."
    *in the background, two random guys kiss sitting at a table, next to a door with a sign marked "washrooms"*

    Richy on
    sig.gif
  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    :whistle:its been a long road...
    gettin from there to here
    ...:whistle:

    dlinfiniti on
    AAAAA!!! PLAAAYGUUU!!!!
  • jclastjclast Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Aww, VOY and ENT weren't all bad. Enterprise, specifically, suffered from what SG:U is doing right now - it actually got good and interesting and then they canceled it.

    jclast on
    camo_sig2.png
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Here's an interesting topic I've been musing on, thanks to watching lots of SF Debris reviews: If one could do Voyager all over again from the start, how would one improve it and avoid the mistakes it made?

    An angle I would be interested in would be that Janeway was actually First Officer and had to take charge after the Captain was killed. Especially if you make it so Voyager was her first taste of Command after being a Science Officer, that would make an interesting arc where she had to cope with the power unexpectedly thrust on her.
    I would make it about the adventures of a ship cut away from the Federation. No resupplies, damage is permanent, limited number of shuttles and photon torpedoes. They would have to balance their high ideals with the reality of their bad situation. Also, there could be tensions between two mortal enemy factions who are at war with each other, but are forced to work together on the same ship.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Lucid wrote: »
    I like DS9, but I prefer Star Trek in single episode stories(with continuity over the series). Works better for the parable/philosophical aspect. Some amount of story arc is fine, but I felt the dominion war to be a little fatiguing after a while.

    On the other hand it gave us this;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89WcIwjlQxA

    The space battles were cool but this remains, for me, the finest moment in Star Trek.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-YyL7X4CWw

    Just because it's so contrary to what the Federation and Starfleet are supposed to stand for. If it's possible to make a Mary Sue out of an organisation than Roddenberry made one out of the UFP. To see an episode ( brilliant episode) throw all that out for just a few minutes was amazing.

    Also I watched the 2009 film just yesterday, it was pretty and all the characters were great but the cavernous plot holes grated on my nerves, I hope they make a better job of the next one.

    EDIT: An addendum, Garak is the best.

    Saint Madness on
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Here's an interesting topic I've been musing on, thanks to watching lots of SF Debris reviews: If one could do Voyager all over again from the start, how would one improve it and avoid the mistakes it made?

    An angle I would be interested in would be that Janeway was actually First Officer and had to take charge after the Captain was killed. Especially if you make it so Voyager was her first taste of Command after being a Science Officer, that would make an interesting arc where she had to cope with the power unexpectedly thrust on her.

    The easiest thing to do would be to play up the tension between Starfleet and the Maquis, have it take months or years for it to begin to break down. Get rid of Neelix entirely, or rewrite his character completely into the 'Han Solo' he was supposed to be. Have Tom Paris actually go through a trial by fire, everyone on the ship should hate his guts for a long time and have his redemption/fall be a recurring theme.

    I'd also keep damage from episode to episode. Have Voyager be the most technologically advanced ship in the Quadrant, but it doesn't matter because it just makes them a massive target. Have some tough decisions, force them to give away Replicators/Weapons for basic supplies and alliances and have it come back to bite them sometimes.


    I also think they should have used the Borg about twice total as actual opponents rather than threats in the back ground. I actually like the arc where Seven is introduced, and the dropped Borg Baby, so they can keep that arc. The last would be some kind of suicide, or major attack with the allies they've accrued in the Quadrant for the finale.

    I actually really enjoy Voyager still, but thats mostly because I really like the Doctor and Seven and they got a ton of focus in the second half of the series.

    Z0re on
  • RichyRichy Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    jclast wrote: »
    Aww, VOY and ENT weren't all bad. Enterprise, specifically, suffered from what SG:U is doing right now - it actually got good and interesting and then they canceled it.
    Season 4 of Enterprise was too little, too late. It simply isn't worth sitting through the first three seasons for.

    And it was catastrophically ruined by the finale.

    Richy on
    sig.gif
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    jclast wrote: »
    Aww, VOY and ENT weren't all bad. Enterprise, specifically, suffered from what SG:U is doing right now - it actually got good and interesting and then they canceled it.

    I continue to have a soft spot for the Doctor, Tuvok and Seven. However, Neelix...

    Captain Archer was a bit of a jackass in his early days. I kinda drifted away from Enterprise by series 2, it just didn't draw me in. I did catch some episodes of series 4, and they were definately more interesting, except for the "official" finale. In spite of the improvement, I can appreciate why the network gave up on it. An argument can be made for too little too late.

    I've still to watch "In a Mirror Darkly". I should do this.

    RMS Oceanic on
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Richy wrote: »
    jclast wrote: »
    Aww, VOY and ENT weren't all bad. Enterprise, specifically, suffered from what SG:U is doing right now - it actually got good and interesting and then they canceled it.
    Season 4 of Enterprise was too little, too late. It simply isn't worth sitting through the first three seasons for.

    And it was catastrophically ruined by the finale.

    Bakula ruined Enterprise for me, there was just something about his acting that I found really irritating.

    And the whole "Time Warz lol" thing didn't help either.

    Saint Madness on
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Richy wrote: »
    jclast wrote: »
    Aww, VOY and ENT weren't all bad. Enterprise, specifically, suffered from what SG:U is doing right now - it actually got good and interesting and then they canceled it.
    Season 4 of Enterprise was too little, too late. It simply isn't worth sitting through the first three seasons for.

    And it was catastrophically ruined by the finale.

    Bakula ruined Enterprise for me, there was just something about his acting that I found really irritating.

    And the whole "Time Warz lol" thing didn't help either.

    Bakula always looked like he had no idea how he was supposed to be playing Archer. The few times he was in a situation out of the ordinary, like the Amnesia episode or the Mirror Universe stuff, I think he did a great job. But normal Archer never really had a consistent character, he wavered between 'too nice' and 'total asshole' at random and seemed almost deranged in most of his personal episodes. Especially the Dog in Sickbay one. Or the fucking evolution episode.

    Z0re on
  • Void SlayerVoid Slayer Very Suspicious Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    NO ONE CARES ABOUT TIME TRAVEL

    Time travel (and other dimensions) episodes were interesting in other treks because it helped advance characters or put them in new and interesting situations. No one cares about the fundamental outcomes of such technologies. It is enough to say, hey we can't replicate it, we do not understand enough.

    I want to see a Klingon in a petticoat and an android shoot people in the wild west. If one can not write a coherent and engaging narrative without time travel, you don't get to use time travel just cause it is cool. Time travel is a privilege for competent writers not a crutch for hacks.


    Also, when one makes alien civilizations which are to serve as allegories for human situations or conflicts, they should be sufficiently alien in psychology or society to warrant having aliens. Emphasis the difference, point out specific qualities, create situations which could not occur in reality to challenge norms or something. Otherwise just use humans. Many human looking aliens from both the original series and TNG were actually very different from humans in fundamental ways when you explored them. Similarities should exist for us to empathize with them at the same time we can see the differences.

    Void Slayer on
    He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Voyager's problem was almost entirely in the writing; almost all of the main crew were very good actors.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I would definately be interested in restricting the use of time travel for a while. Alternate realities are fine.

    Hey, remember the best cliffhanger ever?

    RMS Oceanic on
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    If it's possible to make a Mary Sue out of an organisation than Roddenberry made one out of the UFP. To see an episode ( brilliant episode) throw all that out for just a few minutes was amazing.
    Roddenberry was only in charge of the first two seasons of TNG. The ones that were extremely lame for the most part.

    The rest of TNG had some great episodes dealing with the darker side of the federation and starfleet. Drumhead is a good example. We see that racism(specism) still happens, and Worf gets sucked into a morally dubious area. Paranoia makes people crazy. In the pale moonlight, while a great episode isn't revolutionary in terms of Star Trek. The main difference in TNG and DS9 is that the federation was in a cold war with the romulans and an active war later with the dominion.

    Also, in regards to time travel I think it can be done well. The final episode of TNG is one of the best(makes a better movie than any of the actual movies). I guess it wasn't so much themetically about time travel though. More about time perception, and thinking outside of a linear concept.

    Lucid on
  • Saint MadnessSaint Madness Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I would definately be interested in restricting the use of time travel for a while. Alternate realities are fine.

    Hey, remember the best cliffhanger ever?

    The Best of Both Worlds has awesome music.

    Saint Madness on
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I would definately be interested in restricting the use of time travel for a while. Alternate realities are fine.

    Hey, remember the best cliffhanger ever?

    The Best of Both Worlds has awesome music.

    And the guy responsible for it, Ron Jones, was fired.

    That would be worthy of an "lolwut".

    RMS Oceanic on
  • chiasaur11chiasaur11 Never doubt a raccoon. Do you think it's trademarked?Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Lucid wrote: »
    If it's possible to make a Mary Sue out of an organisation than Roddenberry made one out of the UFP. To see an episode ( brilliant episode) throw all that out for just a few minutes was amazing.
    Roddenberry was only in charge of the first two seasons of TNG. The ones that were extremely lame for the most part.

    The rest of TNG had some great episodes dealing with the darker side of the federation and starfleet. Drumhead is a good example. We see that racism(specism) still happens, and Worf gets sucked into a morally dubious area. Paranoia makes people crazy. In the pale moonlight, while a great episode isn't revolutionary in terms of Star Trek. The main difference in TNG and DS9 is that the federation was in a cold war with the romulans and an active war later with the dominion.

    Also, in regards to time travel I think it can be done well. The final episode of TNG is one of the best(makes a better movie than any of the actual movies). I guess it wasn't so much themetically about time travel though. More about time perception, and thinking outside of a linear concept.

    I'd say there was a huge difference.

    Drumhead, it was shown to be a bad thing(tm.) The people who did BAD THINGS were not portrayed as nice. It was a very special episode for Worf.

    Meanwhile, Moonlight?

    It's Our Hero who condones murder, treachery, and lies. Moreover, he did it with the most reasonable of intentions, and it worked out. He even managed to live with himself after.

    One is "We're better than that". The other?

    "Guess what? Sometimes war means playing dirty."

    chiasaur11 on
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    chiasaur11 wrote: »
    Lucid wrote: »
    If it's possible to make a Mary Sue out of an organisation than Roddenberry made one out of the UFP. To see an episode ( brilliant episode) throw all that out for just a few minutes was amazing.
    Roddenberry was only in charge of the first two seasons of TNG. The ones that were extremely lame for the most part.

    The rest of TNG had some great episodes dealing with the darker side of the federation and starfleet. Drumhead is a good example. We see that racism(specism) still happens, and Worf gets sucked into a morally dubious area. Paranoia makes people crazy. In the pale moonlight, while a great episode isn't revolutionary in terms of Star Trek. The main difference in TNG and DS9 is that the federation was in a cold war with the romulans and an active war later with the dominion.

    Also, in regards to time travel I think it can be done well. The final episode of TNG is one of the best(makes a better movie than any of the actual movies). I guess it wasn't so much themetically about time travel though. More about time perception, and thinking outside of a linear concept.

    I'd say there was a huge difference.

    Drumhead, it was shown to be a bad thing(tm.) The people who did BAD THINGS were not portrayed as nice. It was a very special episode for Worf.

    Meanwhile, Moonlight?

    It's Our Hero who condones murder, treachery, and lies. Moreover, he did it with the most reasonable of intentions, and it worked out. He even managed to live with himself after.

    One is "We're better than that". The other?

    "Guess what? Sometimes war means playing dirty."

    I think what I liked about Moonlight, apart from being much more grey than average Trek, was they didn't take the final step away from the Roddenberry ideal and say this was the right thing to do. Sisko admits that it's still an evil thing to do, and goes against what the Federation is supposed to be about. It will, however, help the Federation to survive, so although he has sinned he will learn to live with it.

    RMS Oceanic on
  • Orochi_RockmanOrochi_Rockman __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2011
    In the Pale Moonlight is one of my favorite DS9 Episodes. Garak is just great in it.

    I like TNG, DS9, and Voyager but DS9 is probably my favorite.

    Orochi_Rockman on
  • mcpmcp Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I have TNG and DS9 on DVD. Whenever we can't decide on something to watch/do we stick in an episode of DS9. I think DS9 is my favorite. It came on after midnight when I was growing up. I would watch it in my bedroom with the volume reaaaaalllll low so it didn't wake my parents.

    Avery Brooks is awesome. He doubled his awesome when he grew the goatee. Armin Shimerman is awesome too. He's played Quark on TNG, DS9, and Voyager.

    Iggy Pop was an fantastic Vorta

    The worst part of DS9 is Vic Fontaine.

    mcp on
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    mcp wrote: »
    The worst part of DS9 is Vic Fontaine.

    Eh, he never bugged me that much. I liked his episode with Nog.

    RMS Oceanic on
  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Voyager had a great premise, and they threw it all away only a handful of episodes in. It's hard to even fathom how badly they dropped the ball there. "Year of Hell" is what the entire series should have been.

    Manny Coto saved Enterprise in season 4 before Berman and Braga decided to take a shit on the whole thing with the TNG finale. That whole thing..just... gah! Chubby Frakes, aged Sirtis, and we're supposed to believe that this seamlessly fits into an episode from 10-15 years earlier? Trip's death was handled primarily by a person who wasn't alive at that point! Just... my head hurts from thinking about it.

    At least Coto fixed the Vulcans and got rid of the stupid Temporal Cold War shit.

    Nightslyr on
  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The worst part of DS9 is the entire last season though I guess you could give the last four episodes a pass.

    Xenogears of Bore on
    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • mcpmcp Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    In the Pale Moonlight is one of my favorite DS9 Episodes. Garak is just great in it.

    I like TNG, DS9, and Voyager but DS9 is probably my favorite.
    Garak is great in everything. In Purgatory's Shadow is one of my favorite episodes. Garak has to work through his claustrophobia, and Worf has to fight the jem'hadar, and we find out Martok was replaced by a changeling.

    So good.

    mcp on
  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Garak is clearly the best recurring character.

    Apart from Morn, obviously. How could you top that?

    RMS Oceanic on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Richy wrote: »
    Here's an interesting topic I've been musing on, thanks to watching lots of SF Debris reviews: If one could do Voyager all over again from the start, how would one improve it and avoid the mistakes it made?

    An angle I would be interested in would be that Janeway was actually First Officer and had to take charge after the Captain was killed. Especially if you make it so Voyager was her first taste of Command after being a Science Officer, that would make an interesting arc where she had to cope with the power unexpectedly thrust on her.
    I would make it about the adventures of a ship cut away from the Federation. No resupplies, damage is permanent, limited number of shuttles and photon torpedoes. They would have to balance their high ideals with the reality of their bad situation. Also, there could be tensions between two mortal enemy factions who are at war with each other, but are forced to work together on the same ship.

    The key to fixing Voyager is and always has been to actually take the premise seriously.

    It's kinda like BSG in that way.

    Basically, Voyager should have been the adventures of the USS Equinox. And then some other ship called "Voyager" shows up at some point and is all self-righteous assholes to them.

    shryke on
This discussion has been closed.