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Debt Ceiling Ho!

adventfallsadventfalls Why would you wish to know?Registered User regular
edited July 2011 in Debate and/or Discourse
Okay, so, obviously, this is a big subject, but let's go ahead and talk about the US government. Basic stuff about what they're doing, how they're doing, etc. This isn't about the stupidity of state governments, this isn't about the stupidity of the Republican presidential field, this is about the stupidity (perceived or otherwise) of the federal government.

First, a quick primer for our buddies overseas or those who want a refresher on what's going on in Congress, since everyone knows who's in the White House:
Spoiler:

So there's gonna be a big showdown over the debt ceiling. Boehner says it's not going to be raised unless there's a massive number of spending cuts, trillions of dollars of them.

Reid's fired back, wanting cuts in oil and gas subsidies before anything else- something the House already voted down and that Boehner views as a tax hike.

Even the President's gotten in on the action, implying that the Republicans are taking hostages and using some of the harshest language on their end yet.

mod edit: "US Government" is way too broad a thread topic. I hereby christen this the Debt Ceiling and Maybe Some Things Related Like Deficits and Such Thread.

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  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The obvious solution is to eliminate the debt ceiling entirely instead of periodically raising it. If that doesn't work for one of those weird constitutional reasons, increase it to Graham's number or something like that.

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The debt ceiling could easily be removed statutorily - the problem is that Congresscritters will oppose removing it because that vote can easily be spun as "Representative X supports endless government spending".

  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Tenek wrote: »
    The obvious solution is to eliminate the debt ceiling entirely instead of periodically raising it. If that doesn't work for one of those weird constitutional reasons, increase it to Graham's number or something like that.

    They should set it to some % of GDP

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The simple version is that the entire Republican leadership has said they'll raise the debt ceiling. Any cuts the Democrats allow are cuts the Democrats want.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Tenek wrote: »
    The obvious solution is to eliminate the debt ceiling entirely instead of periodically raising it. If that doesn't work for one of those weird constitutional reasons, increase it to Graham's number or something like that.

    They should set it to some % of GDP

    Spending caps are a terrible, terrible idea. Sometimes emergencies happen and you have to spend a lot of money.

  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The simple version is that the entire Republican leadership has said they'll raise the debt ceiling. Any cuts the Democrats allow are cuts the Democrats want.

    John Boehner says you're a silly goose. http://www.speaker.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=240370
    So let me be as clear as I can be. Without significant spending cuts and reforms to reduce our debt, there will be no debt limit increase. And the cuts should be greater than the accompanying increase in debt authority the president is given.

    We should be talking about cuts of trillions, not just billions.

    They should be actual cuts and program reforms, not broad deficit or debt targets that punt the tough questions to the future.

    And with the exception of tax hikes -- which will destroy jobs -- everything is on the table. That includes honest conversations about how best to preserve Medicare, because we all know, with millions of Baby Boomers beginning to retire, the status quo is unsustainable.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2011
    I edited the OP and thread title to be specifically about the debt ceiling and related matters, because "federal government" is waaaaay too broad.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    John Boehner is a lying piece of shit. Watch the House leadership four months ago...
    At the House GOP retreat in Baltimore, "Majority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) delivered a stern message that the debt ceiling will eventually have to be raised to keep the government from defaulting. But he also promised that Republicans will 'use the leverage' they have to enact at least some of their spending-reduction goals. 'It's a leverage moment for Republicans,' Cantor said in an interview Friday. 'The president needs us. There are things we were elected to do. Let's accomplish those if the president needs us to clean up the old mess.'"

    Republicans have no leverage. The rest of the statement is meaningless, because the GOP will not destroy the American economy. They're a fucking puffer fish. They look big and scary but if you pop them, they deflate and have to vote to raise the damn thing, because they are not yet a suicide cult.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2011
    Regardless of what Republicans have or haven't said, they're going to raise the debt ceiling. There are not enough completely retarded and/or suicidal Pubs in congress to let the nation go all Mad Max. I'm sure there are some, but not enough.

    As to the ceiling in principle, I like it as a reminded that this is actual money we are actually spending. In theory, we can borrow an infinite amount of money. In practice, there are good reasons to not just print out a trillion dollars and buy the nation a giant bling-necklace to hang around Maine. Periodic fights like these, while incredibly dumb, help remind the politicians and the citizens that the debt is money that we are spending that we don't actually have.

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
    edited May 2011
    Republicans have no leverage. The rest of the statement is meaningless, because the GOP will not destroy the American economy. They're a fucking puffer fish. They look big and scary but if you pop them, they deflate and have to vote to raise the damn thing, because they are not yet a suicide cult.

    If only the Dems weren't phobic about puffer fish.

    "Gah! It's inflating! Give it more spending cuts! Dear God, give it more spending cuts!"

    Maddie: "I named my feet. The left one is flip and the right one is flop. Oh, and also I named my flip-flops."

    I make tweet.
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    At the same time, Jeffe, it's pointless theatrics, and there's a reason no other country in the world has a debt ceiling.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Yeah. the GOP leadership and your corporate oligarchs are not gonna let the American/World Economy go all End of Days over the Debt Ceiling.

    All the posturing here is to try and force the Democrats to do all (or most of) the voting to raise the debt ceiling so the GOP can hammer them on raising the debt ceiling.

    Oh, and to get all sorts of cuts passed too.

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Well, also to intimidate Democrats into destroying Medicaid for absolutely no reason.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    This is like the government shutdown brinkmanship spectacle of about a month ago, except with higher stakes

    Something socially important will get cut/negatively impacted burdening mostly poor minorities, but the Republicans will have to vote to raise the debt ceiling, while simultaneously bemoaning whatever compromise Boehner has cut with Democratic leadership that doesn't 100% comply with every godforsaken bullet point of their unattainable goals

    As much of a detestable wang Boehner is, I highly doubt that he'll allow a debt crisis on his Speakership

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  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Regardless of what Republicans have or haven't said, they're going to raise the debt ceiling. There are not enough completely retarded and/or suicidal Pubs in congress to let the nation go all Mad Max. I'm sure there are some, but not enough.

    As to the ceiling in principle, I like it as a reminded that this is actual money we are actually spending. In theory, we can borrow an infinite amount of money. In practice, there are good reasons to not just print out a trillion dollars and buy the nation a giant bling-necklace to hang around Maine. Periodic fights like these, while incredibly dumb, help remind the politicians and the citizens that the debt is money that we are spending that we don't actually have.

    Reminding the people doesn't help when all it does it provoke the usual talking points, especially considering the state of ignorance regarding the causes of and possible solutions to the debt issue. The ceiling has been raised 10 times in the last decade without anything getting fixed - what's made the complaints louder this time is the magnitude of the deficit, not the impending 80th Raising of the Ceiling Since 1940.

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    What makes the complaints louder this time is the existence of the Tea Party, who hate it because all government spending that isn't on guns/bombs/planes makes the baby Jesus cry.

  • hanskeyhanskey Registered User
    edited May 2011
    Hey, why not just end the loophole that enabled GE to spend $0 on taxes in the same year that it made tens of billions in income, and then all the other tax breaks and subsidies like this, and also raise taxes on the non-middle class people making $500K a year or more.

    Let's also end the 2 wars we're fighting that have cost us trillions of dollars.

    That and raise the debt ceiling.

    ... waitaminute ... that would take more guts than the whole of D.C. actually has ...


    Nevermind, let's do something less intelligent instead.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    If the Democrats don't vote "no" on any bullshit attached to the debt ceiling increase (and on the debt ceiling increase itself if there's bullshit attached to it), I'm seriously about ready to give up on democracy.

    Democracy isn't one party threatening to bring about the end of modern civilization if they don't get their way, and the other party capitulating.

  • ForarForar #432 Already prepping for Toronto Fan Expo!Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Oh good, I missed the now locked Congress thread, and this issue in particular was being commented on pointedly when it ended, particularly when the Democrats gave the GOP a taste of "Hey, you deal with the tea party and see how much you like it when they turn on you."

    I don't see a specific date in the OP, and Google is giving me mixed answers. Is there a hard date set for when this may come to a vote, or is it based on outside factors that may kick in sooner or later but without a set timeline just yet?

  • RoanthRoanth Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    hanskey wrote: »
    Hey, why not just end the loophole that enabled GE to spend $0 on taxes in the same year that it made tens of billions in income, and then all the other tax breaks and subsidies like this, and also raise taxes on the non-middle class people making $500K a year or more.

    Let's also end the 2 wars we're fighting that have cost us trillions of dollars.

    That and raise the debt ceiling.

    ... waitaminute ... that would take more guts than the whole of D.C. actually has ...


    Nevermind, let's do something less intelligent instead.

    I agree with most of this but think think the bolded part should be accomplished by closing loopholes vs raising the actual rate. A person who is making $500k plus but not utilizing any shelters (and not living in FL or no-income tax state) is paying around 45% of their income in federal and state taxes. The problem are the loopholes that allow same individual to lower their effective tax rate to less than 20%

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I have a hard time believing that anyone making a half million per year taxable income doesn't have an accountant to make his or her taxes super-low.

  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Thanatos wrote: »
    If the Democrats don't vote "no" on any bullshit attached to the debt ceiling increase (and on the debt ceiling increase itself if there's bullshit attached to it), I'm seriously about ready to give up on democracy.

    Democracy isn't one party threatening to bring about the end of modern civilization if they don't get their way, and the other party capitulating.

    Maybe you should READ THE CONSTITUTION

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  • RoanthRoanth Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I have a hard time believing that anyone making a half million per year taxable income doesn't have an accountant to make his or her taxes super-low.

    You would be surprised. Tax shelters can be incredibly expensive to set up (if you want to maintain any sort of liquidity). Income needs to start hitting the millions before it is really cost effective. Alternatively, someone can abuse the tax code and do things bordering on illegal to shelter income in an "easier" manner but most people would prefer not to do that.

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Regardless of what Republicans have or haven't said, they're going to raise the debt ceiling. There are not enough completely retarded and/or suicidal Pubs in congress to let the nation go all Mad Max. I'm sure there are some, but not enough.

    As to the ceiling in principle, I like it as a reminded that this is actual money we are actually spending. In theory, we can borrow an infinite amount of money. In practice, there are good reasons to not just print out a trillion dollars and buy the nation a giant bling-necklace to hang around Maine. Periodic fights like these, while incredibly dumb, help remind the politicians and the citizens that the debt is money that we are spending that we don't actually have.
    I'd love to see some politician proposing cuts from all the sacred cows of both the right and left. If Republicans are serious about fiscal responsibility, then defense cuts should be on the table. If Democrats want to not be tarred as tax-and-spend liberals, then social programs need to go on the chopping blocks.

    It pissed me off that Republicans got stuck on the funding for DC abortions when they probably could have extracted some extra dozens of billions of dollars if they'd kept their message focused on spending cuts, rather than social issues.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • hanskeyhanskey Registered User
    edited May 2011
    Roanth wrote: »
    hanskey wrote: »
    Hey, why not just end the loophole that enabled GE to spend $0 on taxes in the same year that it made tens of billions in income, and then all the other tax breaks and subsidies like this, and also raise taxes on the non-middle class people making $500K a year or more.

    Let's also end the 2 wars we're fighting that have cost us trillions of dollars.

    That and raise the debt ceiling.

    ... waitaminute ... that would take more guts than the whole of D.C. actually has ...


    Nevermind, let's do something less intelligent instead.

    I agree with most of this but think think the bolded part should be accomplished by closing loopholes vs raising the actual rate. A person who is making $500k plus but not utilizing any shelters (and not living in FL or no-income tax state) is paying around 45% of their income in federal and state taxes. The problem are the loopholes that allow same individual to lower their effective tax rate to less than 20%
    Thanks for the agreement. I really wish politicians had the stones to pull it off.

  • JihadJesusJihadJesus Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The Republicans are overplaying their hand here. They're not going to vote to crater the US economy and fundamentally alter, most likely irrevocably, the role the US plays in the world economy by defaulting on our debts. They have too much to lose.

    It's kind of difficult to hold the entire US economy hostage in exchange for concessions, because you've got no credibility - you just will not shoot the hostage. It's even harder when you've gone on record and *said* that under no circumstances will you shoot the hostage. Really, this is the Republicans daring the Dems to finally strap on a pair and tell them to fuck off. At worst, they do and the debt limit gets raised. At best, they don't and the debt limit gets raised and you get to march closer to your ideal 'fuck the poor' Randian dystopia.

    [Edit]
    and the timing issue is...fluid. Basically, it's hard to tell when we (i.e., the Fed) won't be able to pull some trickery to meet our debt obligations. It starts to get dicey within the next couple weeks. I've also read some commentary that indicates playing chicken is dangerous here - if it looks like we might actually default, the Treasuries market could decide to flip it's shit to the point where we wake up one morning and holy fuck we actually DID default!

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  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    edited May 2011
    Modern Man wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Regardless of what Republicans have or haven't said, they're going to raise the debt ceiling. There are not enough completely retarded and/or suicidal Pubs in congress to let the nation go all Mad Max. I'm sure there are some, but not enough.

    As to the ceiling in principle, I like it as a reminded that this is actual money we are actually spending. In theory, we can borrow an infinite amount of money. In practice, there are good reasons to not just print out a trillion dollars and buy the nation a giant bling-necklace to hang around Maine. Periodic fights like these, while incredibly dumb, help remind the politicians and the citizens that the debt is money that we are spending that we don't actually have.
    I'd love to see some politician proposing cuts from all the sacred cows of both the right and left. If Republicans are serious about fiscal responsibility, then defense cuts should be on the table. If Democrats want to not be tarred as tax-and-spend liberals, then social programs need to go on the chopping blocks.

    It pissed me off that Republicans got stuck on the funding for DC abortions when they probably could have extracted some extra dozens of billions of dollars if they'd kept their message focused on spending cuts, rather than social issues.

    Because what our economy really needs right now is less stimulus.

  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The only statement the democrats need to make here is a 'shopped picture of an orange, teary-eyed, Dr. Evil demanding one trillion dollars or he will decimate the US economy.

    Automata-Sg.png
  • HedgethornHedgethorn Associate Professor of Historical Hobby Horses In the Lions' DenRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Regardless of what Republicans have or haven't said, they're going to raise the debt ceiling. There are not enough completely retarded and/or suicidal Pubs in congress to let the nation go all Mad Max. I'm sure there are some, but not enough.

    As to the ceiling in principle, I like it as a reminded that this is actual money we are actually spending. In theory, we can borrow an infinite amount of money. In practice, there are good reasons to not just print out a trillion dollars and buy the nation a giant bling-necklace to hang around Maine. Periodic fights like these, while incredibly dumb, help remind the politicians and the citizens that the debt is money that we are spending that we don't actually have.

    I agree with all of this. However, Congress has already passed, and the President has already signed, a measure that sets tax rates for fiscal year 2010 and 2011. They've also passed and signed a measure that sets spending rates for fiscal year 2010, and are currently negotiating spending rates for fiscal year 2011. Once those two measures have passed, there's now a deficit of a (fairly) fixed size.

    Now, for some inexplicable reason of American political institutions, Congress needs to pass and the President needs to sign a further piece of legislation that admits that Spending_2010 is in fact a larger number than Revenue_2010. The debt ceiling battle is a battle over the reality of subtraction.

  • YougottawannaYougottawanna Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I don't think congress will fail to raise the debt ceiling, but I don't share this thread's optimism on "the GOP won't be irresponsible enough to tank the economy."

    That seems to me like just the sort of thing they'd do. I know they're in the tank for big business and big business doesn't want this to happen, but they're ALSO in the tank for irrationality and empty rhetoric.

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Bagginses wrote: »
    Modern Man wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Regardless of what Republicans have or haven't said, they're going to raise the debt ceiling. There are not enough completely retarded and/or suicidal Pubs in congress to let the nation go all Mad Max. I'm sure there are some, but not enough.

    As to the ceiling in principle, I like it as a reminded that this is actual money we are actually spending. In theory, we can borrow an infinite amount of money. In practice, there are good reasons to not just print out a trillion dollars and buy the nation a giant bling-necklace to hang around Maine. Periodic fights like these, while incredibly dumb, help remind the politicians and the citizens that the debt is money that we are spending that we don't actually have.
    I'd love to see some politician proposing cuts from all the sacred cows of both the right and left. If Republicans are serious about fiscal responsibility, then defense cuts should be on the table. If Democrats want to not be tarred as tax-and-spend liberals, then social programs need to go on the chopping blocks.

    It pissed me off that Republicans got stuck on the funding for DC abortions when they probably could have extracted some extra dozens of billions of dollars if they'd kept their message focused on spending cuts, rather than social issues.

    Because what our economy really needs right now is less stimulus.
    Long-term, cuts are inevitable. We can either start them slowly and apply them over time, or we can do what countries like Greece did and have to deal with massive disruptions when the situation becomes untenable.

    When will the time be right for cuts and when will the national debt start decreasing? Long-term, lowering the debt means more tax dollars can go to programs, rather than servicing the debt itself. And a lower debtload means future necessary deficit spending will be more palatable.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Or we could restore taxes to where they were under Clinton, Reagan, or even Eisenhower. Then we'd be fine.

  • hanskeyhanskey Registered User
    edited May 2011
    Modern Man wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Regardless of what Republicans have or haven't said, they're going to raise the debt ceiling. There are not enough completely retarded and/or suicidal Pubs in congress to let the nation go all Mad Max. I'm sure there are some, but not enough.

    As to the ceiling in principle, I like it as a reminded that this is actual money we are actually spending. In theory, we can borrow an infinite amount of money. In practice, there are good reasons to not just print out a trillion dollars and buy the nation a giant bling-necklace to hang around Maine. Periodic fights like these, while incredibly dumb, help remind the politicians and the citizens that the debt is money that we are spending that we don't actually have.
    I'd love to see some politician proposing cuts from all the sacred cows of both the right and left. If Republicans are serious about fiscal responsibility, then defense cuts should be on the table. If Democrats want to not be tarred as tax-and-spend liberals, then social programs need to go on the chopping blocks.

    It pissed me off that Republicans got stuck on the funding for DC abortions when they probably could have extracted some extra dozens of billions of dollars if they'd kept their message focused on spending cuts, rather than social issues.
    Few accuse the repubs of focus these days, with so many opposing factions in the "big tent".

    Between the Tea Party-ers, the fiscal conservatives who are not affiliated with nut-jobs, the near libertarian states-rights crazies, and the culture war obsessives, one could be caught by surprise that the party manages to present a united front even in the small things, like the opposition response to the State of The Union address...

    From my liberal Ivory Tower I'm seeing the easiest group of conservatives to defeat in a very long time ... too bad I can't convince the elected liberals to see things the same.

  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    The only statement the democrats need to make here is a 'shopped picture of an orange, teary-eyed, Dr. Evil demanding one trillion dollars or he will decimate the US economy.

    Except Boehner is demanding 2 trillion (at least, 2 trillion is how much I heard they wanted to raise the debt ceiling last night).

    For funsies I figured out what would have to be cut from the budget to reach that number. Using a graph of the 2010 budget on Wikipedia it looked like everything (EVERYTHING) except Defense and Social Security.

    camo_sig2.png
  • skyknytskyknyt Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited May 2011
    Or we could restore taxes to where they were under Clinton, Reagan, or even Eisenhower. Then we'd be fine.

    Even going back to Clinton taxes would essentially fix the debt. Reagan taxes would let us actually have a country again!

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  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Tomanta wrote: »
    The only statement the democrats need to make here is a 'shopped picture of an orange, teary-eyed, Dr. Evil demanding one trillion dollars or he will decimate the US economy.

    Except Boehner is demanding 2 trillion (at least, 2 trillion is how much I heard they wanted to raise the debt ceiling last night).

    For funsies I figured out what would have to be cut from the budget to reach that number. Using a graph of the 2010 budget on Wikipedia it looked like everything (EVERYTHING) except Defense and Social Security.
    I could be wrong, but I think when people talk about "X trillion" in cuts, they really mean that is how much the cuts will spend over some period.

    Like, if we cut some weapons program, the amount to look at is how much the cut would have spent over the life of the program, rather than the first year.

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • hanskeyhanskey Registered User
    edited May 2011
    Tomanta wrote: »
    The only statement the democrats need to make here is a 'shopped picture of an orange, teary-eyed, Dr. Evil demanding one trillion dollars or he will decimate the US economy.

    Except Boehner is demanding 2 trillion (at least, 2 trillion is how much I heard they wanted to raise the debt ceiling last night).

    For funsies I figured out what would have to be cut from the budget to reach that number. Using a graph of the 2010 budget on Wikipedia it looked like everything (EVERYTHING) except Defense and Social Security.

    Which is the evil pipedream of the Tea Party. I'm now calling them do-nothings, because they have no solutions, no alternatives, and no practical ideas that I've heard, just a tired old mantra that we've all heard for decades from other conservatives:

    Everything involving fed+money = slash-and-burn (fitting end for any Randian distopia).

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Well, MM is right that it's over X years (usually 10, but not sure in this particular case). And most of the Tea Party's pipe dream involves social issues, as they're the same old conservative base, repackaged.

    It's not about the deficit. It's never been about the deficit. If it was about the deficit, Bill Clinton would be a god damn national hero.

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    hanskey wrote: »
    Which is the evil pipedream of the Tea Party. I'm now calling them do-nothings, because they have no solutions, no alternatives, and no practical ideas that I've heard, just a tired old mantra that we've all heard for decades from other conservatives:

    Everything involving fed+money = slash-and-burn (fitting end for any Randian distopia).

    Except if the Republican governor wants it, in which case gimme!

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