Halos Nach TariffCan you blame me?I'm too famous.Registered Userregular
edited May 2011
Wow, that ending, damn.
Did both Doctors have a
sonic screwdriver? It seemed like they did but then why did the Doctor throw his to Mr. Smith in the Evac Tower?
Halos Nach Tariff on
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Yup.
It seemed suspiciously like it was Doctor 1100 who was Fleshed to me, but I suppose it could be present timeline Doctor, given that present timeline Doctor figured out what was going on.
The question of when Amy was swapped is pretty big. I'm guessing, given Amy told the Doctor she was pregnant in the first episode, it was probably when "she" was taken to the Silence's time engine, so the Amy the Doctor got back was Flesh!Amy. All the instances of Madame Kostanza are Flesh!Amy remembering via "time memory" what was happening to actual!Amy.
Episode itself had some good moments, but its pacing got away with itself, and it couldn't maintain much coherency. I'm not even talking about the clone issue; they were pretty easy to keep track of. But what was going on with the Monastery and Jennifer's plan was pretty much incomprehensible to me.
Wasn't the eye patch lady appearing just real Amy seeing it and having it imprinted onto flesh Amy like in dreams? Real Amy is driving flesh and having patchy interrupt her which is subconsciously beamed to flesh or something?
The way they were predicting things about to happen was very weird. Didn't really understand that.
Asiriya on
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Actually, yes, good point.
Real Amy could've been nicked in the warehouse. That's explains her seeing Kostanza at the Orphanage, and is a big memory gap that I'm expecting to be filled.
And yeah, the prediction, plus the fact that the Doctor was never scanned by the Flesh is what makes me think it's the older Doctor 1100, rather than our Doctor.
i think i got it > series spoiler spec based on latest episodes >
doctor is in a timeloop, explains why he knows so much, how he gets to 200 "quickish" (or its a 200 year long loop) explains the line in the rebel flesh where he goes "oh i didnt think i'd say that again!" and ect ect, time loop starts when he gets shot by the astronaught and it flings him back to... not sure when, might be sometime during day of the moon? the predicting stuff only really started in the rebel flesh.. so maybe the solar storm thing? they were knocked out for awhile and i think it only started to happen after that but i'd have to recheck.
The interplay between the Doctor is hilarious. Love this.
Daxon on
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Bits and pieces:
The Doctor says it was "vital/important" that he knew if the Flesh versions of people were exactly the same. Given he's known Amy was Flesh, this could be something beyond just demonstrating some sort of sanctity of life again.
[strike]The Doctor knows about being invited to his own funeral... but the Flesh Doctor doesn't. Equally, one of the Doctors knew all about things that were going to happen. Hard to tell which one because of boot-switching. Flesh Doctor knows that Amy has been captured (to be fair, the Doctor could've known this ever since the TARDIS scanned Amy for the first time). This implies some serious wizardry going on here.[/strike] I am le dumb
Amy has been replaced by Flesh!Amy (and has a 'psychic link' to her Fleshy self, or 'dreaming' as Madame Kovarian calls it). She was replaced in 1969, we assume. The Flesh isn't in "its very early stages" until the 22nd century. So I guess the Silence's time engine is pretty functional, then. Although this still leaves the curious question of when Amy was taken, which is more confusing when you consider the "nano"-recorder.
I really quite enjoyed it, even though the plotting seemed a bit patchy. It wasn't quite clear what the ganger's plan was all along, and everyone seemed to change their minds pretty easily about whether they hated each other or not. Still, I'm a sucker for a good "aren't clones just as human as us?" story, and I thought this one was well-done overall; I never felt like I was being bashed on the head with that theme, even though I obviously was. Loved the little subplot about the guy's kid.
I particularly liked that only one of each person survived, but it was an assortment of gangers and originals. I'm not too sure why the Doctor was so willing to let ganger-Doctor and ganger-Miranda die at the end though, he almost seemed eager to be rid of them.
Rory was pretty dim in this episode; I can buy that he'd be fooled, but really, I'm not buying that he's going to lock Amy and the Doctor in a room to right some perceived wrong - it wasn't even clear how locking them in a room was going to achieve that, exactly. Which brings us to...
Rory:
I feel like the different writers aren't on the same page when it comes to Rory: he seems more inconsistently written than any of the other characters. Half the time he's a really loyal husband to Amy, fierce and reliable in a bad situation even if he isn't anybody special and a genuinly useful addition to the crew who doesn't hero-worship the Doctor. The other half he's just a buffoon who does nothing but continually gets himself captured and require rescue, a la old-school Who companions, and does worship the Doctor. (Also, occasionally a writer seems to realise "He's a nurse, HE MUST BE CARING!" which never works out well, and I think is what happened here.) It's a shame, as he's a character with some really good potential, and I wish the crew (I assume it ought to be Moffat's job) were more strict about making him consistent. I do him despite his getting messed about like this, though.
The ending:
That was goddamn awesome. I wish Matt Smith was given a chance to do Serious Doctor more often, because he nails it to the wall each time he does. I think the last time we saw the Doctor that authoritative was the space-whale episode, and it was awesome there too.
The little online prequel thing (DON'T read this if you haven't watched it):
The implication there was that Amy's baby was the Doctor's?! Seriously, what? It'd make sense as to why that little girl could regenerate in Day of the Moon though. Not sure how I feel about it if it is true - I very much like the Doctor being the only Time Lord in the new series.
Kester on
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Mike Danger"Diane..."a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Between
Jennifer's FINAL FORM and Amy's predicament, this season has definitely cranked the nightmare potential to 11.
Re: episode 7 trailer
are those omega symbols with that military group there? That's going to spark some speculation
edit: And finally
I am still betting that the baby's having traveled on the TARDIS means that it's uniquely prepared to be a vessel for a TARDIS brain/consciousness/mind. The "Amy's baby is the Doctor's kid" just doesn't seem that likely.
When the ganger's eyes flashed at him after they locked up everyone it seemed like he had been mind tricked somehow.
What is a mindtrick?
Like...Jedi mind tricked? The eyes flashed and he sorta stumbled over his words for a second like he was fighting off psychic influence of some sort.
Yeah no, probably just him being quite shocked that the one he thought was the real Jenny wasn't the real Jenny and that real Jenny was actually dead.
She just actually changed her eyes into evil-looking flesh eyes for a second there.
Daxon on
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
So I just realised that when Flesh!Amy takes the Doctor outside of the room to ask if he can die, it's the real Doctor, which is how the real Doctor knows about being invited to his funeral and the Flesh!Doctor doesn't.
Although this still doesn't explain any of his weird predictive capabilities in the episode.
I don't think they're even trying to imply that it's The Doctor's child. This blue guy seems to be in the know, and the previous season has implied that the baddies of the Universe are pretty well aware of The Doctor's proclivities when it comes to Companions. So when he freaks out at which child they've taken, it's really easy to assume that he's freaked out because he knows that taking Amy's child will make The Doctor quite angry.
So I just realised that when Flesh!Amy takes the Doctor outside of the room to ask if he can die, it's the real Doctor, which is how the real Doctor knows about being invited to his funeral and the Flesh!Doctor doesn't.
Although this still doesn't explain any of his weird predictive capabilities in the episode.
I don't understand
What predictive abilities?
The only other thing is the phone call but he scheduled for that to happen earlier in the episode.
edit: I agree mori, that is very sound and sensible and what I thought.
So I just realised that when Flesh!Amy takes the Doctor outside of the room to ask if he can die, it's the real Doctor, which is how the real Doctor knows about being invited to his funeral and the Flesh!Doctor doesn't.
Although this still doesn't explain any of his weird predictive capabilities in the episode.
I don't understand
What predictive abilities?
The only other thing is the phone call but he scheduled for that to happen earlier in the episode.
So I just realised that when Flesh!Amy takes the Doctor outside of the room to ask if he can die, it's the real Doctor, which is how the real Doctor knows about being invited to his funeral and the Flesh!Doctor doesn't.
Although this still doesn't explain any of his weird predictive capabilities in the episode.
I don't understand
What predictive abilities?
The only other thing is the phone call but he scheduled for that to happen earlier in the episode.
"Breathe" and "Push when she tells you."
The doctor has probably known it's a fake Amy for quite a while, so that explains away the breathe thing, as he probably figured out she was pregnant as well.
Amy earlier on told FleshDoctor about the woman she keeps on seeing in the wall. Could just assume that she'd tell her to push when the time came.
Though there's probably some other magic explanation for it though that's the most rational chioces.
edit:
I just realised that Amy must have been FleshAmy before they got their invitation to the Doctor's death. Which is interesting to say the least..
So I just realised that when Flesh!Amy takes the Doctor outside of the room to ask if he can die, it's the real Doctor, which is how the real Doctor knows about being invited to his funeral and the Flesh!Doctor doesn't.
Although this still doesn't explain any of his weird predictive capabilities in the episode.
I don't understand
What predictive abilities?
The only other thing is the phone call but he scheduled for that to happen earlier in the episode.
"Breathe" and "Push when she tells you."
It seems like it has something to do with the plan that motivated The Doctor to go to that site in the first place. The Flesh do seem to share some sort of connection with eachother, so it seems The Doctor may have purposefully had himself cloned to somehow "spy" on what was going on with Amy.
Jesus Christ. I can't believe this two-parter was written by the guy who wrote Fear Her.
Silas Brown on
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Mike Danger"Diane..."a place both wonderful and strangeRegistered Userregular
edited May 2011
Here's a question
WTF is going on with the sonic screwdriver in this episode? The Doctor gives the Flesh Doctor/John Smith his when he sends him off with Amy and Buzzer to investigate, but then at the end, the Doctor has one in the TARDIS to destroy the Flesh Amy, and the Flesh Doctor has one to destroy the Flesh Jennifer.
I don't think that it's a case of the Flesh replicating possessions, either, as I believe that Flesh whatshisname doesn't have the wedding ring around his neck (which is why the genuine article gives his to him)
edit: Okay, I've just thought that this could be explained by him having a spare somewhere in the TARDIS, but I could swear that at one point, both Doctors have a screwdriver when they make it seem like the real Doctor has to give "John Smith" his.
WTF is going on with the sonic screwdriver in this episode? The Doctor gives the Flesh Doctor/John Smith his when he sends him off with Amy and Buzzer to investigate, but then at the end, the Doctor has one in the TARDIS to destroy the Flesh Amy, and the Flesh Doctor has one to destroy the Flesh Jennifer.
I don't think that it's a case of the Flesh replicating possessions, either, as I believe that Flesh whatshisname doesn't have the wedding ring around his neck (which is why the genuine article gives his to him)
edit: Okay, I've just thought that this could be explained by him having a spare somewhere in the TARDIS, but I could swear that at one point, both Doctors have a screwdriver when they make it seem like the real Doctor has to give "John Smith" his.
Well the Doctor probably just had the Tardis make a new one once they left the island, like in the eleventh doctor when it makes him a new one at the end of the episode.
Daxon on
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BethrynUnhappiness is MandatoryRegistered Userregular
The only other thing is the phone call but he scheduled for that to happen earlier in the episode.
edit: I agree mori, that is very sound and sensible and what I thought.
Phone call, a few predictions of what people will say or do, and knowing where the TARDIS will be.
Bear in mind that even though he sets up the phonecall, he doesn't know where he'll be at that time in the future, nor even if Jimmy will survive.
Although, given it's not Moffat writing, I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a Xanatos Roulette.
Regarding the screwdriver.
The Doctor gives it to Flesh!Doctor near the start. Flesh!Doctor gives it back to the Doctor when the Doctor and Buzz go off to find Jennifer and Rory. The Doctor then gives Flesh!Doctor it at the very end to kill the Jenniferal. Then we assume the Doctor gets a new one from the TARDIS to goop Flesh!Amy with.
If I understand correctly, someone abducted Amy and had a copy made from her. This copy was just a doll through which the real Amy lived her life while she was busy being pregnant. The Doctor didn't kill a version of Amy; he just killed the doll Amy was controlling.
It makes sense, sort of. Once the world heard what happened to the acid miners, they'd want to make sure it never happens again. They'd have to give all the existing flesh human rights and a wage. And once they have those things, there's no point in sending flesh to do the dangerous jobs.
However, the dangerous jobs still need doing. So they'd have to change the technology, make it so that the copies really are just dolls, and not people. And in the future, someone used that technology to create a doll for Amy.
This means that Amy is in the future, at least a few decades after the 22nd century, which is when this two-parter takes place. We assume Amy was taken in the 60s, during that whole Silence thing. This means the Silence have access to time-travel technology or, and this is more likely, some other enemy took Amy and brought her to the future.
So, the people who have Amy are time-travelers and want a child who's able to regenerate. To me that suggests Timelords are involved. Maybe some of them escaped when Gallifrey appeared in the sky above London.
So that was really, really good. But Christ, the kiddies must be shitting themselves after watching that. I mean that mouth thing alone is probably going to keep them from ever going to sleep again this year.
was a Timelord put on Earth for the Doctor to find. The Doctor said it himself: Amy was just too tempting. She was a very mysterious little girl in very mysterious circumstances. The Doctor wouldn't be able to resist.
Here's some more speculation. Amy is a Timelord hiding on Earth and her child is a demi-Timelord, allowing her to regenerate from wounds. I mean, if having sex in the TARDIS was enough to create a Timelord, the Doctor would have recreated his entire civilization by now.
Maybe Amy is Romana or Susan or the Rani. Wouldn't that be nice?
Posts
Preview + Trailer for Ep 7 at bbc.co.uk/doctorwho
Did both Doctors have a
The question of when Amy was swapped is pretty big. I'm guessing, given Amy told the Doctor she was pregnant in the first episode, it was probably when "she" was taken to the Silence's time engine, so the Amy the Doctor got back was Flesh!Amy. All the instances of Madame Kostanza are Flesh!Amy remembering via "time memory" what was happening to actual!Amy.
Episode itself had some good moments, but its pacing got away with itself, and it couldn't maintain much coherency. I'm not even talking about the clone issue; they were pretty easy to keep track of. But what was going on with the Monastery and Jennifer's plan was pretty much incomprehensible to me.
goosebumps.
The way they were predicting things about to happen was very weird. Didn't really understand that.
Real Amy could've been nicked in the warehouse. That's explains her seeing Kostanza at the Orphanage, and is a big memory gap that I'm expecting to be filled.
And yeah, the prediction, plus the fact that the Doctor was never scanned by the Flesh is what makes me think it's the older Doctor 1100, rather than our Doctor.
MUST NOT READ SPOILERS MUST NOT READ SPOILERS!
There are many others like it, but this one is mine.
:winky:
although I may not be saying that after next week...
The interplay between the Doctor is hilarious. Love this.
[strike]The Doctor knows about being invited to his own funeral... but the Flesh Doctor doesn't. Equally, one of the Doctors knew all about things that were going to happen. Hard to tell which one because of boot-switching. Flesh Doctor knows that Amy has been captured (to be fair, the Doctor could've known this ever since the TARDIS scanned Amy for the first time). This implies some serious wizardry going on here.[/strike] I am le dumb
Amy has been replaced by Flesh!Amy (and has a 'psychic link' to her Fleshy self, or 'dreaming' as Madame Kovarian calls it). She was replaced in 1969, we assume. The Flesh isn't in "its very early stages" until the 22nd century. So I guess the Silence's time engine is pretty functional, then. Although this still leaves the curious question of when Amy was taken, which is more confusing when you consider the "nano"-recorder.
Some thoughts on...
The episode:
I particularly liked that only one of each person survived, but it was an assortment of gangers and originals. I'm not too sure why the Doctor was so willing to let ganger-Doctor and ganger-Miranda die at the end though, he almost seemed eager to be rid of them.
Rory was pretty dim in this episode; I can buy that he'd be fooled, but really, I'm not buying that he's going to lock Amy and the Doctor in a room to right some perceived wrong - it wasn't even clear how locking them in a room was going to achieve that, exactly. Which brings us to...
Rory:
The ending:
The little online prequel thing (DON'T read this if you haven't watched it):
Re: episode 7 trailer
edit: And finally
CALLING IT LAST WEEK
Holy fuck that was freaky.
Mega excited for next week as well. Everything this season has been quite excellent bar the pirate episode, and even that was fairly decent.
On the Prequel:
Yup Sniper
She just actually changed her eyes into evil-looking flesh eyes for a second there.
Although this still doesn't explain any of his weird predictive capabilities in the episode.
I don't understand
The only other thing is the phone call but he scheduled for that to happen earlier in the episode.
edit: I agree mori, that is very sound and sensible and what I thought.
Amy earlier on told FleshDoctor about the woman she keeps on seeing in the wall. Could just assume that she'd tell her to push when the time came.
Though there's probably some other magic explanation for it though that's the most rational chioces.
edit:
I don't think that it's a case of the Flesh replicating possessions, either, as I believe that Flesh whatshisname doesn't have the wedding ring around his neck (which is why the genuine article gives his to him)
edit: Okay, I've just thought that this could be explained by him having a spare somewhere in the TARDIS, but I could swear that at one point, both Doctors have a screwdriver when they make it seem like the real Doctor has to give "John Smith" his.
Bear in mind that even though he sets up the phonecall, he doesn't know where he'll be at that time in the future, nor even if Jimmy will survive.
Although, given it's not Moffat writing, I wouldn't be surprised if it's just a Xanatos Roulette.
Regarding the screwdriver.
The doctor sees all of space and time constantly anyhow.
It makes sense, sort of. Once the world heard what happened to the acid miners, they'd want to make sure it never happens again. They'd have to give all the existing flesh human rights and a wage. And once they have those things, there's no point in sending flesh to do the dangerous jobs.
However, the dangerous jobs still need doing. So they'd have to change the technology, make it so that the copies really are just dolls, and not people. And in the future, someone used that technology to create a doll for Amy.
This means that Amy is in the future, at least a few decades after the 22nd century, which is when this two-parter takes place. We assume Amy was taken in the 60s, during that whole Silence thing. This means the Silence have access to time-travel technology or, and this is more likely, some other enemy took Amy and brought her to the future.
So, the people who have Amy are time-travelers and want a child who's able to regenerate. To me that suggests Timelords are involved. Maybe some of them escaped when Gallifrey appeared in the sky above London.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Having seen the last episode, my first thought was: Running isn't really gonna help....
Not that I want to piss of Rory either, Guy waited 2000 years protecting the Pandorica with Amy inside it.
Here's some more speculation. Amy is a Timelord hiding on Earth and her child is a demi-Timelord, allowing her to regenerate from wounds. I mean, if having sex in the TARDIS was enough to create a Timelord, the Doctor would have recreated his entire civilization by now.
Maybe Amy is Romana or Susan or the Rani. Wouldn't that be nice?