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[Bitching Thread VI] A Brand New Day (for bitching)

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Posts

  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    I'm sure I'm not the only one that has said that, but I really hate that Marvel keeps most of their books at 4 dollars. A couple of weeks ago I had a flight, and I happily plunked down about 15 dollars to read Scott Snyder's current run of Batman(minus the latest issue). Like others have said, that dollar difference between 2.99 and 3.99 is just too big of a gap for me to make nowadays.

    Spoiler:
  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Oh, man. I forgot about Dark Avengers. On one hand, I love the book and want to support it. On the other ... It's just a book.

    The problem isn't just Marvel. The Activity is $3.50 as was one of the Atomic Robo books. Just for comparison, the first Activity trade is $6.83 on Amazon. ???

    I can't seem to get the hang of hunting down this stuff, either, in old issues or digital. :/

    cshadow42 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, its hard to trade wait for DC, as they take so dang long to get things into trade, and not as high a percentage of books get collected in trades. Hopefully the Vertigo-ish titles in the new DC 52 will be collected in trades (Animal Man, Swamp Thing).
    I was planning to do that, and frustrated by that, but you know what? I don't care anymore. I can live without Batwoman and Animal Man, and DC can clearly live without my money for not making trade purchases convenient.

    Crimsondude on
  • cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    Oh, man. I forgot about Dark Avengers. On one hand, I love the book and want to support it. On the other ... It's just a book.

    The problem isn't just Marvel. The Activity is $3.50 as was one of the Atomic Robo books. Just for comparison, the first Activity trade is $6.83 on Amazon. ???

    I can't seem to get the hang of hunting down this stuff, either, in old issues or digital. :/

    cshadow42 wrote: »
    Unfortunately, its hard to trade wait for DC, as they take so dang long to get things into trade, and not as high a percentage of books get collected in trades. Hopefully the Vertigo-ish titles in the new DC 52 will be collected in trades (Animal Man, Swamp Thing).
    I was planning to do that, and frustrated by that, but you know what? I don't care anymore. I can live without Batwoman and Animal Man, and DC can clearly live without my money for not making trade purchases convenient.

    I will say, the Batwoman : Elegy trade is quite beautiful, especially when you're not being distracted by ads and you have the nice glossy pages. I'm planning on getting the Batwoman : Hydrology trade when it comes out (and the price is low enough).

    I read Morrison's Animal Man v1, and while it was ok, and the price was right, I'm just not that into the 4th wall breaking thing that much.

    Right now, I'm watching the Fear Itself hardcover go down in price. Its currently at $18 (when its $36 at my LCS), and I haven't read any of the Fear Itself stuff so I'm contemplating getting it, if for no other reason than to catch up on the story.

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  • HenslerHensler Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    edit: Sorry, computer froze when I was bitching about Star Wars comics. Banging on the keyboard created a gibberish post.

    Hensler on
  • AntimatterAntimatter if you want to talk to me look elsewhere.Registered User regular
  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    Bitch: Oh god the collection of Avengers trades the local big box bookstore had setup to tie in was terrible. Children's Crusade, Jeph Loeb Rulk, and the Crossing.

    At least they had that semi-prose origin retelling for kids top and right so it was easy to find.

    huntresssig.jpg
  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus ha ha just kidding I'm Frog ManRegistered User regular
    why would anyone ever stock The Crossing

  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    This is the best part of the Crossing:

    forceworks16d.jpg

    And that's it, and the idea that Rachel is the only one immune to all the time travel and warping stuff that was going on because even kids know it makes no sense.

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  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Antw0.jpg

    Hm, quick experiment.
    A massive fleet of ships fills the background, lasers firing in all directions, while celestial bodies float behind them. In the foreground, Captain Marvel is swarmed by Super-Skulls, each mimicking the superpowers of an entire team of superheroes.

    CAPTAIN MARVEL: Aaaarrrgh!

    Hey, that took a whole sixty seconds to write.

    Meanwhile, it'd take the better part of a day to draw.

    Seriously, I get Waid's point. Writing certainly isn't easy, and the good writers stand apart from the bad writers, in a clear way. But, there's a reason that most writers can do four-to-five books a month, and most artists struggle to keep up the pace on one.

    Additionally, it's a lot easier to fake competence, as a writer, than an artist. Sure, Land's a hack, and Liefeld is terrible, but everyone knows it. And people, being visual creatures, understand when something is fundamentally wrong with a drawing. They may not be able to explain why the perspective in a drawing is broken, or the anatomy is messed up, but they'll be able to tell you it doesn't look right.

    On the flip-side, I'm not so sure people knew Chuck Austen or Bruce Jones sucked at writing, until they'd been at it for a while.

    Really, I don't think it's unfair to say that drawing a comic, is objectively harder than writing one.

  • UltimateInfernoUltimateInferno Registered User regular
    I wouldn't say objectively, and that's because they are two different beasts.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Apples and Oranges

    they are both skilled jobs, and both require talent, dedication, knowledge and effort

    Neither is harder or easier. Writing requires a different set of skills than drawing and vice versa. I am not very good at drawing etc, and respect those who have the ability to create in that way, I'd be nice if O'Malley gave writers the same respect back.

    Solar on
  • AntimatterAntimatter if you want to talk to me look elsewhere.Registered User regular
    i would definitely argue against his point about it being less rewarding

    just because a good piece of art is something to be recognized, and like you said, good writing isn't so easily noticed

    i do think that drawing is harder than writing but I'm also no good at drawing and have a much better knack at coming up with stories, dialogue, and characters

    I can come up with rough sketches which i could maybe use to show to an artist partner, but that's about it

  • Centipede DamascusCentipede Damascus ha ha just kidding I'm Frog ManRegistered User regular
    It's like saying that basketball is objectively harder than hockey.

  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Yeah that assumes that all comic scripts are like that

    some writers put a disgusting amount of detail into their scripts and each issue is basically a small novella

    others do it Marvel style which is straight up prose

    I do think it is wrong and unfair to say drawing a comic is objectively more difficult than writing one

    they are completely different and difficult in entirely different ways

    Blankzilla on
  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    Drawing is harder than writing, but writing is more important to the story than the art, so they balance out when it comes to assuaging each creator's fragile ego, less they have a Matt Murdock beakdown.

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  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Munch wrote: »
    Sure, Land's a hack, and Liefeld is terrible, but everyone knows it.

    Is that so?

    Land and Liefeld have continued to get work, and their books have sold shitloads of copies.

    1Slimus.jpg
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    I wouldn't say objectively, and that's because they are two different beasts.

    I think anyone who devoted a modicum of effort to it, could write a readable comic. It probably wouldn't be great. Things like pacing, dialogue, etc. all take time to learn. But, you could probably read it and say, "Yep, that's a comic, alright."

    The same can't be said for drawing one, I think.

    I mean, even Jeff Parker and Phil Hester have said that they switched from primarily doing art to primarily writing, because it was faster and/or easier.
    Gaslight wrote:
    Is that so?

    Land and Liefeld have continued to get work, and their books have sold shitloads of copies.

    Land is fast, and his art is most unoffensive. It looks like people, and clearly conveys the story, and that's all most readers really need.

    Liefeld sold really well in the 90's, when everything sold really well. His recent track record isn't nearly as impressive. But again, he continues to get work, because he hits his deadlines, and is reportedly a very nice guy, and easy to work with.

    Munch on
  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    While on the sugbject of Liefield, Deathstroke #9 preview.

    He brings Youngbglood, to you! For extra goodness, read his Grifter preview and the two characters come across as the same.

    corel309-Copy_zps0390a6cc.jpg
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Munch wrote: »
    I wouldn't say objectively, and that's because they are two different beasts.

    I think anyone who devoted a modicum of effort to it, could write a readable comic. It probably wouldn't be great. Things like pacing, dialogue, etc. all take time to learn. But, you could probably read it and say, "Yep, that's a comic, alright."

    The same can't be said for drawing one, I think.

    I mean, even Jeff Parker and Phil Hester have said that they switched from primarily doing art to primarily writing, because it was faster and/or easier.
    Gaslight wrote:
    Is that so?

    Land and Liefeld have continued to get work, and their books have sold shitloads of copies.

    Land is fast, and his art is most unoffensive. It looks like people, and clearly conveys the story, and that's all most readers really need.

    Liefeld sold really well in the 90's, when everything sold really well. His recent track record isn't nearly as impressive. But again, he continues to get work, because he hits his deadlines, and is reportedly a very nice guy, and easy to work with.

    Order of the Stick uses stick figure art and is very clearly a comic

    a very popular one, too!

    I would agree with you that flaws are harder to hide when it comes to the art

    but I don't think that it is any more important than the story

    personally, I'll read a well written comic with bad art, but not vice versa

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Yeah, but even Burlew's stick figure art, is better than other people's stick figure art. He's worked at it, and improved on it over time.

    Like, his drawings are more attractive, and more versatile, than Cyanide and Happiness, or xkcd.

    An amateur writer could probably script out some Lord of the Rings fanfiction, that was readable. I don't think the xkcd guy could draw Aragorn fighting orcs, and have it be half as engaging.

    I don't want to come off like I'm disrespecting writers. It's a skill, and it takes work to hone it. I'd be happy to be half the writer, that Waid is.

    But, I think the barrier for entry to becoming a writer, is much lower, specifically because it's an easier skill to develop. That's not saying it's a worse skill, or one less deserving of praise.

  • cshadow42cshadow42 Registered User regular
    Order of the Stick is one of my favorite webcomics.

    I've seen some very pretty looking art, but it means nothing if its accompanied by a crappy story. I'm willing to wade through crappy art if there's a good story.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    XKCD and Cyanide and Happiness are awful

    but at the same time, a lot of their awfulness comes from the writing

    XKCD has quite a quirky art style which is just fine, it's the writing which is bad

  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    XKCD is just great thank you very much. It's notable that Randall's first few comics (and the odd one here or there since) show far more skill than random stick figures, he just draws that way because it's what he likes for the strip.

    huntresssig.jpg
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I am just saying my opinion, is all

    and how my issue is with the writing, not art. The art is simple, but not a problem, really.

  • AntimatterAntimatter if you want to talk to me look elsewhere.Registered User regular
    XKCD is misogynistic and the author is arrogant and belittling of those who study things that aren't math.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    well

    I just personally consider it to be not very funny

    but that is me

  • Crimson KingCrimson King wolves cull themselves, man. what other creature could? and is the race of man not more predacious yet?Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    munch i gotta say, i think you are hugely underestimating the amount of skill it takes to write anything even remotely close to decent

    writing is a more information-dense medium than art, so it takes less time to communicate the same amount of information. there's also less of a barrier to entry, in that you use language every day. this makes it seem like art is harder. it's also why everyone thinks they can write - because they can put words together in sentences and it seems like that's all there is to it.

    but learning to tell even a mediocre story or god forbid write some decent fucking poetry is a huge step up from just throwing words together, and is far more difficult than you might expect. there's so much more to learn about narrative construction and proper sentence formation and stylistic technique than people realize. you can't just come at it blind. there are rules to this

    also writing is hugely prone to the Dunning-Kruger_effect. it can be almost impossible for inexperienced writers to tell what's wrong with their work. you've said it's easier to tell at a glance what's wrong with an image than what's wrong with a story - that makes it almost impossible to get good writing feedback. you need an experienced eye to be able to pinpoint the difference between good writing and bad. people say that creative writing can't be taught, but really it's that only a genuinely good writer can teach it. and writers probably have less understanding of how they do what they do than artists, because they're taught that there are no rules and that creative writing can't be taught, but that doesn't mean that there's actually any less rigour to it.

    anyway my point is that you should all read The Elements of Style.

    Crimson King on
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  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    XKCD was better back when it was punctuated by the periodic, out-of-nowhere, devoid-of-context, hideously depressing moody/distraught/emo comics one could only assume were inspired by some personal emotional trauma in Randall's real life (or gave a convincing impression of being so...who knows, maybe they were all total bullshit).

    Something like that is badly needed to cut through the suffocating reek of self-satisfaction which has permeated Randall's work for the past several years. He seems to have identified the formula which won him popularity and the loyalty of his most ardent core fan base and now he's just cruising. Which is not WRONG per se, he's just...trying too hard or not trying hard enough, I'm not sure which.

    Gaslight on
    1Slimus.jpg
  • Linespider5Linespider5 You could have just sent a thank you note. Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Munch is right on this.

    Lest we forget Mike Mignola basically deciding to strictly do covers and occasional panels of Hellboy for the last, oh...six years. A book that is, ostensibly, a flat-out labor of love for the guy. He's done a few things on the side, Joe Golem et al, but...

    When you've got someone with a creator-owned property that sells and who is also one of the most recognizable comic artists on the planet-Mignola's easily in the top ten-who opts opt of drawing and preferring to just do the writing, it says something.

    Mainly, it says that people who draw comics eventually prefer just writing them instead. That's what Alan Moore did, too.

    Can't think of any comic authors who gave up writing to do the art.

    Linespider5 on
    2014png.png
  • Crimson KingCrimson King wolves cull themselves, man. what other creature could? and is the race of man not more predacious yet?Registered User regular
    look at the average quality of what gets posted in the artist's corner

    now look at the average quality of what gets posted in the writer's block

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  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Elaborate on that.

    I don't read anything in the WB, but the AC has its share of quality art from skilled people, who have been doing it for years, and new artists, who aren't that great, yet.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited May 2012
    Munch wrote: »
    Liefeld sold really well in the 90's, when everything sold really well. His recent track record isn't nearly as impressive. But again, he continues to get work, because he hits his deadlines, and is reportedly a very nice guy, and easy to work with.

    Liefeld makes deadlines since he might only do outlines then let other uncredited artists finish the work. He did this in a project with Kirkman recently. Kirkman went ape-shit when he discovered it. That's the reason their collaboration dissolved.

    Harry Dresden on
  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    Antimatter wrote: »
    XKCD is misogynistic and the author is arrogant and belittling of those who study things that aren't math.

    I don't think XKCD is misogynistic. At this point, Randall is downright trans-positive for one thing.

    huntresssig.jpg
  • AntimatterAntimatter if you want to talk to me look elsewhere.Registered User regular
    XKCD is hella misogynistic and I've seen nothing about his opinions about trans people one way or the other.

  • HenslerHensler Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    While on the sugbject of Liefield, Deathstroke #9 preview.

    He brings Youngbglood, to you! For extra goodness, read his Grifter preview and the two characters come across as the same.

    Looks like I'm down to just Stormwatch with New 52 titles.

  • CrimsondudeCrimsondude Registered User regular
    Any idiot can get hired to write.

  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    Any idiot can get hired to write.
    Yeah and lots of terrible artists can get paid to draw things terribly

    the comparison isn't between ALL ART/WRITING FOREVER

    it is between the amount of effort that goes into crafting a well-written piece of work and a well-done piece of art

    which again, aren't comparable at all.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    Any idiot can get hired to write.

    Only with the proper connections. Without that an idiot writer won't get anywhere with the major companies. Unlike artists which have a much easier time showing their skills to editors. Of course, having connections is helpful for those as well.

  • noir_bloodnoir_blood Registered User regular
    [quote="Munch;2304
    Munch wrote: »
    Antw0.jpg

    Hm, quick experiment.
    A massive fleet of ships fills the background, lasers firing in all directions, while celestial bodies float behind them. In the foreground, Captain Marvel is swarmed by Super-Skulls, each mimicking the superpowers of an entire team of superheroes.

    CAPTAIN MARVEL: Aaaarrrgh!

    Hey, that took a whole sixty seconds to write.

    Meanwhile, it'd take the better part of a day to draw.

    Seriously, I get Waid's point. Writing certainly isn't easy, and the good writers stand apart from the bad writers, in a clear way. But, there's a reason that most writers can do four-to-five books a month, and most artists struggle to keep up the pace on one.

    Additionally, it's a lot easier to fake competence, as a writer, than an artist. Sure, Land's a hack, and Liefeld is terrible, but everyone knows it. And people, being visual creatures, understand when something is fundamentally wrong with a drawing. They may not be able to explain why the perspective in a drawing is broken, or the anatomy is messed up, but they'll be able to tell you it doesn't look right.

    On the flip-side, I'm not so sure people knew Chuck Austen or Bruce Jones sucked at writing, until they'd been at it for a while.

    Really, I don't think it's unfair to say that drawing a comic, is objectively harder than writing one.

    I think it is, because it's just silly to make those type of comparison.

    Your example about writing is just as silly, because sure, it might have taken sixty seconds to physically get that scene down to paper(or you know, Word), but it could have taken hours-days to get to the point where as a writer you're happy with that scene.

    By the same token, I could say that comic artists have it easy, because they don't have to worry about figuring out the plot, or making sure the characters feel real, or shying away from cliches that readers will recognize. All they have to do is follow direction. Plus a lot of them get to use reference, that's pretty much just tracing. :)

    Spoiler:
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    The difference is that the worst professional artist, is still probably leagues above an untrained artist.

    Meanwhile, plenty of people with little-to-no writing experience do webcomics, that are of comparable quality to books published by Marvel/DC/Image/whoever.

    There's a reason why a bunch of comic fans have scripts sitting on their hard drives, but few ever try to draw one. The latter requires a much greater investment of time and energy, just to achieve the skill required to produce something readable.

    I mean, comic art isn't just drawing people, and geometric shapes, in proper perspective. It's animals, buildings, vehicles, crowds, fights, cityscapes, deserts, forests, oceans, etc. It's being able to design something from the ground up. It's being able to draw all that stuff, from different angles, and keeping it visually consistent. It's staging the scene in the way that'll have the most impact. It's learning how to use the right kind of ink, with the right kind of brush, on the right kind of paper. It's scanning the art, and tweaking it until it looks right. It's resizing it to make sure it's the proper dimensions.

    Yeah, they're not comparable at all.

This discussion has been closed.