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SC2: This thread is OVER!! New THREAD!!!

MNC DoverMNC Dover Aspiring Game DesignerSeattle, WARegistered User regular
edited June 2011 in Games and Technology
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The Starcraft II discussion thread
(Channel PA on NA)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yOw-hYMbDY



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Master's level Protoss Analysis.
Our good friend s_86 will be reviewing his games as he goes. Click on the image above to visit his blog page.


The SC2 thread proudly presents!

1. The Weekly Forum Challenge

(Organizer: MNC Dover)
Spoiler:

Our eleventh WFC player will be ChaosHat! Here's his info:

Forum name: ChaosHat
B.Net ID with 3 digit code: ChaosHat.444
Race played: Protoss
Rank: Gold
Do you want a coach?: Nope!
Timezone: EST
bo3 format

Challenge our player by sending him a PM, post, or b.net message to set up times!

Here are the replays of the WFC prior:
Spoiler:


2. PA showmatch series #2 & #3

(Organizer: Enigma435)
When you step on this deck, you be ready to fight, or you dishonor the reason why we're here. Now remember this: When you fight a man, he's not your friend.

Watch PAers engage in friendly (most of the time) combat for your entertainment!


3. Replay(s) of the day! (6/5)

(Organizer: whoever created this thread)

A random replay of the play donated by our forum-goers. Make sure to upload your replay submissions to submit your replay using gamereplays.org. And be a pal and mark your replay as ROTD material in your post so they're easier to find.

repimg-33-213080.jpg

Start here to better craft some stars.
Spoiler:


OK that's all cool, but I want to play with some PA people.
Spoiler:


JK. I like watching Starcraft instead. Where can I watch some good games?
Spoiler:

MNC Dover on
http://www.gamesbygray.com (my website and resume)
Nintendo Network ID: MNC.Dover
XBL Gamertag: MNC Dover
Starcraft II: MNCDover.235
3DS: 1934-0659-5183
Hero Academy: MNC_Dover
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Posts

  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm new thread.

    Toss OP, Terran Overplayed, Zerg underplayed greatness. gg

  • 3clipse3clipse Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Mmm, still got that new thread smell.

    Fresh out of the oven, just like mom used to make!

    C2hmw6F.png
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    2n2 LT team Day9 / Goomba approve of new thread

    196980_10150224803189569_741629568_8996983_6492917_n.jpg

    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User
    edited May 2011
    okay, now that the new thread has popped, i can lay down my discussion point

    for anyone watching the tlattack with sheth today

    you saw how much stuff was going on and the players were only at like 100 food and having large army/positioning jostling

    firstly, and i think we all know the sort of answer to this, why doesn't this happen in sc2 (probably not refined enough, yeah?)

    but secondly, why is it so easy to max out in sc2? in the match with morrow, both players were relatively safe and macroing hard and were still at about 80 food when i think someone in similar positions could be pushing like 120 or 140 even (hard macro zerg)

    why is the food counter so much more explosive in sc2?

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    couple of replays because why not

    repimg-33-211802.jpg

    repimg-33-211802.jpg


    ... I think I'm done with there being all this parody stuff. parodying a lonely island song? they're the kings of funny music. don't sit right.

    BNet-Vari#1998 | WiiU-Variable | 3DS-3866-8105-7478 | Steam | Twitch
    Sig%20-%20Hearthstone%20DoA.png
  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    okay, now that the new thread has popped, i can lay down my discussion point

    for anyone watching the tlattack with sheth today

    you saw how much stuff was going on and the players were only at like 100 food and having large army/positioning jostling

    firstly, and i think we all know the sort of answer to this, why doesn't this happen in sc2 (probably not refined enough, yeah?)

    but secondly, why is it so easy to max out in sc2? in the match with morrow, both players were relatively safe and macroing hard and were still at about 80 food when i think someone in similar positions could be pushing like 120 or 140 even (hard macro zerg)

    why is the food counter so much more explosive in sc2?

    everything about the game is faster, I think it's that simple

    BNet-Vari#1998 | WiiU-Variable | 3DS-3866-8105-7478 | Steam | Twitch
    Sig%20-%20Hearthstone%20DoA.png
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Auto mining
    chrono / mule / inject

    this is just a guess, but it seems you can get to full saturation a LOT faster than in sc1

    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    WellPlayed logo and TB's voice and that's it?

    10170-1.png
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Auto mining
    chrono / mule / inject

    this is just a guess, but it seems you can get to full saturation a LOT faster than in sc1

    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    gonna repost this and see if i can get any advice

    Just got tooled by a plat (PLAT!) terran who playing nothing but a defensive game. I've played these kinds of matches before and have never, ever, been successful at beating them.

    repimg-33-211782.jpg

    He placed tanks behind a line of supply depots and turrets in order to protect his natural. He put turrets all over his main and turtled like crazy. He eventually ended up going heavy thor/banshee/raven with enough ravens to snipe expansions in like 5 seconds.

    I think (THINK) I should have built a warp prism and harassed him, but he probably would have survived and just built more turrets in response. I tried taking him out initially with a chargelot/archon/DT mix with a few VRs sprinkled in, but his defense held spectacularly, mainly because of mother fucking banshees. I later tried to go pure phoenix/VR, but was easily defeated. He built turrets close to my base while his army stood by in order to have those as well when we finally engaged.

    It's such a frustrating match to think about because I have no real clue what the answer would have been. Terran defense is so unbelievably strong.

  • TheBogTheBog Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Wouldn't carriers make sense?

    10170-1.png
  • PantsBPantsB Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    TheBog wrote: »
    Wouldn't carriers make sense?

    Does not compute

    11793-1.png
    Spoiler:
  • ChaosHatChaosHat Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Guek wrote: »
    gonna repost this and see if i can get any advice

    Just got tooled by a plat (PLAT!) terran who playing nothing but a defensive game. I've played these kinds of matches before and have never, ever, been successful at beating them.

    repimg-33-211782.jpg

    He placed tanks behind a line of supply depots and turrets in order to protect his natural. He put turrets all over his main and turtled like crazy. He eventually ended up going heavy thor/banshee/raven with enough ravens to snipe expansions in like 5 seconds.

    I think (THINK) I should have built a warp prism and harassed him, but he probably would have survived and just built more turrets in response. I tried taking him out initially with a chargelot/archon/DT mix with a few VRs sprinkled in, but his defense held spectacularly, mainly because of mother fucking banshees. I later tried to go pure phoenix/VR, but was easily defeated. He built turrets close to my base while his army stood by in order to have those as well when we finally engaged.

    It's such a frustrating match to think about because I have no real clue what the answer would have been. Terran defense is so unbelievably strong.

    Colossi are your siege units. They will force him to attack or die slowly.

    ChaosHat.com - Twitter - Twitch Stream - Steam: ChaosHat - 3DS: 5215-0009-1949
    SC2: ChaosHat.444 ggtracker
  • GarethMagisGarethMagis Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    is there anyway to watch that SC2BW match or are there any SC2BW matches floating around, i never really played much SC1 and now the graphics hurt my head so i really am curious to see one of those matches.

    GARETH CAM! HE HAS A FAN!
  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    It seems like just having better generic pathfinding AI breaks the traditional BW metagame.

  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User
    edited May 2011
    there are a couple in tlo's tlattack from last week, starts around 44 minutes, there are two in his i think

    whenever the sheth one gets uploaded there are like 2 or 3 in there near the end as well

    as far as more maybe youtube search sc2bw, i'm too lazy to look

    (i implore you to try and stomach the graphics and maybe watch some gomtv aveatec games that were commentated by tasteless or maybe some tsl2 vods! they own!)

    edit: ked, if that is in regards to sc2bw, basically all ai looked like bw (save for the muta micro? sheth was complaining about that a bit)

    but i do think sc2's better ai has a lot of far reaching implications into how it plays

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • SeguerSeguer Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    On AI:

    The guys who did the Zergling and Marine vids should totally do some for Blink Stalkers.

    They would be terrifying. Infinitely kiting shit alldayerrday

  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Yeah, I don't know enough about BW to comment on the SC2BW AI with any authority.

    It just looks like everything maneuvers too smoothly and easily compared to old BW videos.

    And seems like clunky unit movement had a lot to do with strategies that were or were not effective in BW.

  • KamiKami Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Okay, so wanting to get back into this shindig, but I'm worried that 3rax pressure is super outdated

    Is 2rax fe still a solid all-around opener, or has the metagame shifted so much in the 10+ weeks that it'll be like I have amnesia or something

    steam_sig.png
  • GuekGuek Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    ChaosHat wrote: »
    Guek wrote: »
    gonna repost this and see if i can get any advice

    Just got tooled by a plat (PLAT!) terran who playing nothing but a defensive game. I've played these kinds of matches before and have never, ever, been successful at beating them.

    repimg-33-211782.jpg

    He placed tanks behind a line of supply depots and turrets in order to protect his natural. He put turrets all over his main and turtled like crazy. He eventually ended up going heavy thor/banshee/raven with enough ravens to snipe expansions in like 5 seconds.

    I think (THINK) I should have built a warp prism and harassed him, but he probably would have survived and just built more turrets in response. I tried taking him out initially with a chargelot/archon/DT mix with a few VRs sprinkled in, but his defense held spectacularly, mainly because of mother fucking banshees. I later tried to go pure phoenix/VR, but was easily defeated. He built turrets close to my base while his army stood by in order to have those as well when we finally engaged.

    It's such a frustrating match to think about because I have no real clue what the answer would have been. Terran defense is so unbelievably strong.

    Colossi are your siege units. They will force him to attack or die slowly.

    I really don't think that would have worked. Siege tanks out range colossi and banshees rip them to pieces.

  • LemmingLemming Registered User
    edited May 2011
    Put my iowa post at the top of the OP plz

  • undeinPiratundeinPirat Registered User
    edited May 2011
    kedinik wrote: »
    Yeah, I don't know enough about BW to comment on the SC2BW AI with any authority.

    It just looks like everything maneuvers too smoothly and easily compared to old BW videos.

    And seems like clunky unit movement had a lot to do with strategies that were or were not effective in BW.

    the movement is incredibly similar to normal bw and i don't think any strats were really shown to be nullified, everything looked like typical bw fare

    sheth's commenting on the muta micro just sounded like him being out of practice of it (which is understandable)

    i dunno, the dragoons moving in tlo's tlattack as well as how marines move

    seems legit to me, i haven't watched too much bw recently, but it all seems good

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] steam: undeinpirat
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Kami wrote: »
    Okay, so wanting to get back into this shindig, but I'm worried that 3rax pressure is super outdated

    Is 2rax fe still a solid all-around opener, or has the metagame shifted so much in the 10+ weeks that it'll be like I have amnesia or something

    2fax FE is still totally standard and safe for a TvP build.

    Same build but gasless + a bunker rush for TvZ, moving into siege tanks.

    I dunno for TvT, should be okay.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • tuxkamentuxkamen Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Boxer just snapped those two reapers' necks. Simultaneously.


    Games: Ad Astra Per Phalla | Choose Your Own Phalla
    Spoiler:
    3DS: 2406-5451-5770
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I think I need to spend more time playing this game and less time posting about it.
    Spoiler:

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • kedinikkedinik Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    I post too much.
    Spoiler:

  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
  • MNC DoverMNC Dover Aspiring Game Designer Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Comeback by the Emperor! :D

    http://www.gamesbygray.com (my website and resume)
    Nintendo Network ID: MNC.Dover
    XBL Gamertag: MNC Dover
    Starcraft II: MNCDover.235
    3DS: 1934-0659-5183
    Hero Academy: MNC_Dover
  • EvangirEvangir Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Guek wrote: »
    gonna repost this and see if i can get any advice

    Just got tooled by a plat (PLAT!) terran who playing nothing but a defensive game. I've played these kinds of matches before and have never, ever, been successful at beating them.

    repimg-33-211782.jpg

    He placed tanks behind a line of supply depots and turrets in order to protect his natural. He put turrets all over his main and turtled like crazy. He eventually ended up going heavy thor/banshee/raven with enough ravens to snipe expansions in like 5 seconds.

    I think (THINK) I should have built a warp prism and harassed him, but he probably would have survived and just built more turrets in response. I tried taking him out initially with a chargelot/archon/DT mix with a few VRs sprinkled in, but his defense held spectacularly, mainly because of mother fucking banshees. I later tried to go pure phoenix/VR, but was easily defeated. He built turrets close to my base while his army stood by in order to have those as well when we finally engaged.

    It's such a frustrating match to think about because I have no real clue what the answer would have been. Terran defense is so unbelievably strong.

    First of all, don't attack up a ramp if you know they have a wall plus Siege Tanks. That's just dumb, no matter how big a food lead you have. Second, don't push into a siege line with Bunkers, Turrets, and 16 Banshees. Your opponent just played patiently, expanded all over the map after you suicided your army twice, and could have won with anything from that point. You got impatient and killed yourself.

    The answer is to let him turtle on 3 bases while you build an unbeatable composition and play defensively. He has to push out eventually or he'll starve, and that's when you hit him. If you have absolute map control (which you did before suiciding twice), take extra bases for gas and go for a composition like Templar/Carrier with upgrades. Vikings are actually not very good against Carriers once you get a critical mass, and Templar counter literally every unit in his comp (lol Feedback/Storm). Void Rays are awful against Vikings, Marines, and only decent against Thors if they get any number of them. Phoenix are denied by Thors, though they'd be useful defensively to prevent expansion or tech sniping by a Banshee flock. Observer speed and extra Observers would also be handy for preventing that sort of harass. You were on DQ, so storm harass at his nat or his 4th/5th would have been very effective.

    Zealots are good if he's going pure Mech, but not so much against a Thor/Banshee comp. Same with DTs if he's turretting and PFing as heavily as he was. Archons can be good if they live long enough to splash the Banshees, but that's probably not going to happen if they're at the front of your army. Banshees are pretty damn good.

    Templar/Carrier can work given the amount of time and map control you had. If you get it going, there's really not much he can do about it. Kill his army once and the game is over.

    PSN/XBL/STEAM: Evangir - Starcraft 2: Bulwark.955 - Origin: Bulwark955 - Diablo 3: Bulwark#1478
  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    dhal, when you wanted to learn zerg how did you start?

    with specifics if you don't mind (i.e. what build/which matchups or which method of learning)



    yay for comeback, I'll be watching tomorrow hopefully, stepped out for a few

    BNet-Vari#1998 | WiiU-Variable | 3DS-3866-8105-7478 | Steam | Twitch
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  • TrusTrus Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Would you believe that Sceptre refused to tell me how to beat him in ZvP?!

    qFN53.png
  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Variable wrote: »
    dhal, when you wanted to learn zerg how did you start?

    with specifics if you don't mind (i.e. what build/which matchups or which method of learning)



    yay for comeback, I'll be watching tomorrow hopefully, stepped out for a few

    The same way you learn one race when you first start this game. Pick a single build, if you can find one that works for all 3 matchups great, otherwise one thats relatively okay for all matchups is fine. Speedling expand is what I chose.

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
  • KeamienKeamien Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    MNC Dover used Create New Thread.

    It's super effective.

    Old thread has fainted.

  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    dhal, when you wanted to learn zerg how did you start?

    with specifics if you don't mind (i.e. what build/which matchups or which method of learning)



    yay for comeback, I'll be watching tomorrow hopefully, stepped out for a few

    The same way you learn one race when you first start this game. Pick a single build, if you can find one that works for all 3 matchups great, otherwise one thats relatively okay for all matchups is fine. Speedling expand is what I chose.

    you make it sound so obvious

    BNet-Vari#1998 | WiiU-Variable | 3DS-3866-8105-7478 | Steam | Twitch
    Sig%20-%20Hearthstone%20DoA.png
  • KeamienKeamien Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Vari, just roach rush.

  • Enigma435Enigma435 Registered User regular
    edited May 2011
    Variable wrote: »
    Dhalphir wrote: »
    Variable wrote: »
    dhal, when you wanted to learn zerg how did you start?

    with specifics if you don't mind (i.e. what build/which matchups or which method of learning)



    yay for comeback, I'll be watching tomorrow hopefully, stepped out for a few

    The same way you learn one race when you first start this game. Pick a single build, if you can find one that works for all 3 matchups great, otherwise one thats relatively okay for all matchups is fine. Speedling expand is what I chose.

    you make it sound so obvious

    You can open 14/14 in every matchup as Z. Your expo timing will be different in ZvZ as it's a more volatile matchup. It has a sort of PvP feel where you have to match aggression with your opponent and expand very carefully. Aside from certain situations where you can hatch first in certain positions, but that's kind of an advanced topic. ZvZ will come the slowest for you most likely. It's a matchup where you just have to get a feel for when you need to punish econ and or be afraid for your life and stop droning (the line between these two is much narrower in zvz than the other matchups). To open in ZvP and ZvT do the following:

    14gas/drone/14pool.

    3 drones on gas when it finishes (you can remove them after 100 gas if you only want to get speed, leave them on if you prefer going into banes/roaches/lair after speed.)

    overlord on 15 or 16

    speed research when pool finishes

    queen + some number of lings (your play style will dictate this, I usually only make 2 to start to take down any probe/pylong blocks)

    Take your expo sometime around 20-22ish supply. This timing is flexible depending on what is blocking. Once this is up you're pretty much into read and react mode.

  • VariableVariable Ted Hitler Stroke Me Lady FameRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    awesome thanks


    heh, just read a post on tl about tvp and was going 'hey this guy is right' and I see it's dhal

    BNet-Vari#1998 | WiiU-Variable | 3DS-3866-8105-7478 | Steam | Twitch
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  • peacekeeperpeacekeeper Brisbane, AustraliaRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    i can see dhals head from here now vari

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    edited May 2011
    i'm right about everything, i thought this was common knowledge

    Tube-san wrote:
    I apologise for my rudeness desu.
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