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[DnD+GW 4E Discussion] Distinctly lacks anything to Jenga
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Can't find a video that properly demonstrates the technique but it's doable. The trick is to pull the glasses off like a scientist does in a movie right before they say "you can't generate that much power short of a nuclear bomb!" or similarly dramatic line.
Alternately, go for the "hand under glasses" facepalm, as demonstrated here:
Between MapTool, Roll20, iTabletop, and now Tabletop Forge (on googleplus) and the recently announced Paizo game space... it's not surprising. WotC just sucks at doing anything digital.
My eyeballs nearly exploded out of my face from reading that.
"Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are smarter than one man. How's that again? I missed something" Lazarus Long
I still run into silly amounts of people that don't know theres a Run move action, and it isnt moving twice. It's really hard to convince them its not a homerule to nudge into range when you can just move twice.
I wish I could say I am surprised by this, but when they happily dig up and abandon working software for shit that doesn't work at all well until months after, and I am not even sure if I should be disappointed wizards has broken yet another promise.
I remember when I used to defend WotC routinely. Oh those were the days. Don't I feel stupid now?
A friend of mine commented a week or two ago on how immediately I turned on WotC. I said it was a slow burn, actually, documented in great detail by the 5e thread (may it never rise again), but I share your shame.
As an aside, I was a little sad that the 5e thread was dead by the time they actually posted an article that had something cool in it. Mearls did another article on the Fighter where he admitted that it was stupid as hell for the unique fighter class feature to be 'you can pick TWO of these generic things everyone can access, instead of only one like all the other classes', and posted kind of a cool concept for a class-defining fighter mechanic - essentially the fighter gets a pool of dice every turn that it can spend on specific things from a list of options they can expand with feats. So baseline you can burn your dice to boost your damage dealt/reduce your damage taken, but you can also open up options to use them for other nifty combat tricks that are more efficient than similar options other classes get. So they essentially become a funky mana system that you can, if you want, just directly burn for extra damage.Far from enough to save the system on its own, but cool enough for me to steal as a boon or something for a 4e game.
I wanted to share it because it was literally the first thing out of 5e that I didn't think was garbage, but...I didn't want to share it badly enough to resurrect that thread.
In other news, my 4e game might actually be starting up soon! I've been trying off and on to get it off the ground for months, but I've been stalled largely due to my highly selective process for determining whether I invite someone to play ("Do I want to sit at a table with this person for six hours at a time? If yes, invite them"), which has kept my list of interested invitees somewhat small for a tabletop party (...two.)
And then suddenly, two additional players fell from the sky and a possible fifth appeared before me in a flash of light. Providence wants me to play DnD again.
With that in mind, here's some basic ideas I was thinking of.
The Classes
Class - Role - Primary Ability
Adept - Controller - WIS
Engineer - Leader - INT
Infiltrator - Striker - DEX
Sentinel - Defender - CON
Soldier - Defender - STR
Vanguard - Striker - CHA
So, six classes, six ability scores - why not base each class off one? Adept and Engineer were easy, as I think science smarts (Engineer) as intelligence, and biotic smarts (Adept) as wisdom line up nicely.
Infiltrator and Soldier were likewise pretty easy, just like Rogues and Fighters in 4e. Vanguard and Sentinel I wasn’t too sure on, but here’s my reasoning. Vanguards must have an incredible confidence in themselves to fire off into a biotic charge time and again, so I went with Charisma. In Mass Effect, the Sentinel is the most durable of all the builds, and your system needs to be strong to handle both your biotic amps and your omni-tool.
I don’t have secondary ability scores or roles sorted out. I figure the different power evolutions will give me clues as I go, but I’m open to suggestions.
The Races
Race - Ability Boosts - Racial Ability
Human - as 4e - as 4e
Asari - CHA; WIS/CON - Tiefling
Turian - STR; DEX/CON - Elf
Salarian - INT; DEX/CON - Gnome
Krogan - STR; CHA/CON - Minotaur
Quarian - DEX; INT/CHA - Half-Elf
Drell - WIS; DEX/CHA - Halfling
Geth - INT; DEX/STR - Deva
Vorcha - CON; STR/DEX - Dwarf
Batarian - STR; CON/CHA - Half-Orc
All of the playable races in ME3 multiplayer. I didn’t feel the need to come up with new racials for each, as 4e has plenty of balanced ones to choose from. With a little reskinning (Infernal Wrath -> Biotic Wrath), these should work just fine. I will be doing a little mixing and matching of the other traits (Krogan, for example, should get the resistance to forced movement/prone that dwarves get, while the Vorcha will be taking the minor action second wind).
The Weapons
This will be a little more difficult, but here are some very basic ideas of how the different types of guns will work.
Type - Typical ranges - Typical damage
Pistols - 10-20 - d4
SMG - 5-10 - d6
Assault Rifles - 10-20 - d8
Shotguns - 5-10 - d10
Sniper Rifles - 10-20 - d12
Obviously, there will be big variations within each type, and there are the heavy weapons and melee attacks to take into consideration. How to do reloading in 4e? Maybe each gun should have a different action based on reload times/clip sizes in the video game? Should we abstract ammo, or keep more careful track of it?
i would say that your effective range table is a bit off. this is how i would do it: (also want to note that you could have 2 slots on your weapon for mods that could do different things.. +damage, +ammo, +range, +AP, +stability/accuracy)
Weapon - Effective Range - Damage Die - Clip - Rate of fire - Accuracy (From Hip/Aimed)
Pistols - 5-15 - d4 - ~15 ammo/clip - RoF: 3 shots - Accuracy: -1/+2
SMG - 5-10 - d6 - ~40 ammo/clip - RoF: 10 Shots - Accuracy: -2/-2
Assault Rifles - 10-20 - d8 - ~30 ammo/clip - RoF: 5 Shots - Accuracy: -1/+1
Shotguns - 5-10 - d10 - ~5 ammo/clip - RoF: 1 Shot - Accuracy: 0/+2
Sniper Rifles - 15-25 - d12 - ~1 ammo/clip - RoF: 1 Shot - Accuracy: -2/+4
the way I see ammo/clips working would be something like...
standard action
-fire at RoF (with accuracy bonus)
move action
-move
-aim (take aimed accuracy when firing)
-move 1/2 speed & aim (no from hip penalty, no aimed bonus when firing)
-swap weapons
minor action
-reload
mind you, this is all kinda on the fly. the idea would be to make each weapon category useful for something.
Pistol - short/med range, low damage, decent accurate, decent RoF
SMG - short range, high RoF, poor accuracy, decent damage, no way to make much more accurate
Assault Rifle - med/long range, good damage, lower RoF, more accurate shots
Shotgun - short range, great damage, low RoF, no fire from hip penalty
Sniper Rifle - long range, best damage, low RoF, never fire from hip, amazing aim bonus
something like this. i would love to help develop/playtest this. hit me up if you need help.
Regarding ammo, I'd stick with abstract and maybe have particularly low clip weapons (widow etc) have a reload minor. The most interesting thing would be special ammo types, though that should probably be tied to class features rather than items.
That said, I'm not sure how well firefights would translate to 4E. Maybe star wars saga edition would be a better fit? Personally I've been toying with the idea of MHRP for more of an N7/STG style thing (but that is for a different thread).
Dragon Slayers
Basically, the ME conversion would have implemented 4E combat mechanics, but also Star Wars Saga mechanics (like skills, feats, starships etc.). The game was tailored for a party of 4 players at the time (considered the 'default' party size), and only had 20 levels instead of 4E's 30 levels (levels 1-10 were the Grunt classes, whereas levels 11-20 were the Advance Classes AKA the Specialist classes, such as Justicars, Battlemasters and even Spectres).
If anyone knows of a site that hosts PDFs for free, I'd be glad to post some of the drafts here if anyone's interested.
Also, maybe someday I'd come back to finishing this. I even had plans to implement Elcor and Volus as PCs :o
Edit: Now that I think of it, when I was designing these drafts, I had originally thought on creating a thread here in the forums. It would have been called the Mass Effect 4E Collaboration Project, where people would have posted their ideas and drafts on the system, and we could have brainstorm concepts. However, I don't think the mods would allow such a thing here, hence why I never made one.
I started a tumblr here to collect the work I was doing. I think I can set permissions to let other people post/comment, so if we can't get a thread here about it, we can move over there or to another place you guys know of.
TiamatZ - you could always put the pdfs in dropbox, then drop the link here. I'd like to see what you had so far, but I'm definitely going with ME3 style play, specifically the multi-player.
The 1-10 standard classes, 11-20 paragon paths were something I was considering. I like how 4e handles all of that already, I'm just not sure how to do Epic Destinies. I mean, the only one anyone would ever pick was 'Shepherd.'
PS: Who are the mods in this forum these days? I've never actually needed a mod here before.
So, for all your viewing pleasure, I present you the PDFs I've done of the races and classes I've done (these I considered early Alpha builds, so some of them look a bit OP for a race):
Asari
Geth
Human
Krogan
Quarian
Salarian
Engineer (levels 1-3)
Soldier (levels 1-3)
Regarding the classes: When I was designing the classes, I had decided that each class had to be mechanically unique to one another (i.e. the engineer was designed to be supportive with drones and tech abilities, whereas the soldier focused on martial prowess (e.g. stances) and was also the only class at the time that could choose ammo powers as it's unique feature. Charging would be the Vanguard's forte (gaining class features that would enhance a player's charge powers, thus encouraging them to keep charging in the field), and Adepts would have used Augmentation Points ala the Psion).
I like how we agreed on the krogan and turian racial powers. They all look pretty good, the only thing I'd wonder about at balance is the racial bonuses to attack/damage rolls. Those look like good feats (the Asari could have a Weapon Focus-like feat for biotic damage rolls) instead of features.
I like the thought put into the new powers, but I was just going to 'borrow' the stuff from the games/multiplayer part. Maybe some mixing of the two would work.
Should be fixed now.
Edit: THere's also a few blogs online with people's attempts to convert Mass Effect races into 4th Edition. Here's just one of them.
you have NO IDEA how happy i am to see that
I did see a couple of suggestions that using the Psionic-like power sources would be good for the Biotics - mostly at-wills that could be augmented. That way the Vanguard could focus on biotic charge, and even take feats or equip mods to specialize in it.
My original idea (which I might do for a couple of classes) was to try and make the different powers available in multi-player be the at-wills, then 'powered up' versions be the encounters and dailies.
Just because if they had charisma, they could be vanguards, and that doesn't work
They are infiltrators and engineers, and batarians are soldiers and sentinels
Also, I've started on the Vanguard class, which I figure would fall under the striker role. What I couldn't figure out was what their striker mechanic would be (infiltrator will be sneak attack, natch). I didn't just want to add some ability modifier to their vanguard attacks, or add a couple extra dice here or there. And then I figured it out.
Biotic charge as a minor action. That's the vanguard's striker mechanic.
Biotic Charge - Vanguard Attack 1
Minor Action Melee 1
Target: One creature
Attack: Charisma vs. Fortitude
Effect: You teleport up to 5 squares adjacent to the target and regain Con modifier shields. This attack is modified by any feat, item, or ability that modifies a charge attack.
Hit: 1d6 + Charisma modifier damage
Augment 1
Effect: You teleport up to 10 squares adjacent to the target and regain double your Con modifier shields.
Augment 2
Attack Type: Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy you can see in burst
I shouldn't have to tell you the problem with that.
What would be a good vanguard striker mechanic? I'm really drawing a blank here.
Like close burst 1 and then a flat damage.
Alot of the biotic classes main strengths are from combos (charge+nova, pull+reave etc) so it would be a question of working out how to do that within a move/minor/standard framework. As primus said though, minor action attacks at-will is pretty op, but at the same time forcing a player to have to set up over two turns for their striker damage is also a big ask.
Maybe strip attack rolls/damage from the setup powers completely? Charge becomes similar to the thief's move utilities, things like pull could be a minor slide or debuff and warp could be used like a warlock's curse.
Dragon Slayers
As far as biotic explosions go, I was thinking of something like keywords for powers (Biotic Primer -> Biotic Detonator) would set one off, burst 1 centered on the target that got burst, deals damage equal to the combined levels of the powers used to set it off (or half the average level of the characters that set it off?).
I was also planning on shields/barriers acting as temporary hit points with their own properties. Some abilities might do more damage to shields or barriers, some might do less, etc.
TiamatZ's take on the Vanguard:
Role: Striker. You use shotguns and other close range weapons to charge at your opponents and deal serious damage to your enemies. Your physical power and daunting presence can cause foes to cower before you, and you can use your biotics to temporarily increase your abilities. You lean towards Defender or Leader as a secondary role.
Power Source: Martial/Biotic. You harness the offensive power of biotics, and the strength and discipline through years of physical training and fighting into one solid offensive package.
Key Abilities: Strength, Constitution, Charisma
Armor Proficiencies: Light armor, Medium armor
Weapon Proficiencies: Pistols, Shotguns
Bonus to Defense: +2 Fortitude
Hit Points at 1st Level: 15 + Constitution score
Hit Points per Level Gained: 6
Healing Surges per Day: 7 + Constitution modifier
Trained Skills: From the class skills list below, choose three more trained skills at 1st level.
Class Skills: Acrobatics (Dex), Athletics (Str), Endurance (Con), Treat Injury (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Survival (Wis), Perception (Wis)
Class Features: Assault Mastery, Battle Veteran, Biotic Charge, Rampage
Two example builds would be available: The Champion Vanguard (Str/Cha/Con, focusing on buffing allies on the field when fighting, as well as demoralize/debuffing opponents), and the Destroyer Vanguard (Str/Con/Cha build that focused on dishing out damage, as well as taking it).
VANGUARD CLASS FEATURES
The Vanguard is almost a one-man army, able to get into fights quickly and finishing them before a shot gets fired. Though not a Soldier, Vanguards sacrifice their selection of weapons and armor for raw, unbridled biotic powers and martial strength.
Assault Mastery
Note: this was the only feature I left blank because I didn't know what to add at the time. With ME3 now out I figured Destroyer Vans would get Nova as an At-Will Free Action power they could use ONLY after every successful charge (Deal X damage to all adjacent enemies, where X is your Con modifier +2). Champions get Barrier as an At-Will free action power after a Charge (Gain X amounts of Temp Shield Points, where X is your Cha Modifier + number of enemies adjacent to you). Additional feats would have expanded these powers (e.g. Nova Overload would allow Vanguards to expend their temp Shield Points for additional damage during a Nova, whereas Barrier Overflow would allow Vans to stack their Temp Shield Points when using Barrier). Do note that most Encounter and Daily powers for the Vanguard dealt with Charging, so these powers would be used a lot, not just during biotic Charges.
Battle Veteran
While you are not wearing heavy armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and Reflex. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level.
Biotic Charge
Vanguards gain the Biotic Charge Power. Like the 4th Edition Barbarian, I decided that Biotic Charges had to be special to the class (as a F'YEAH moment). Hence why I made it into a daily.Of course, I gave players the choice to expend an unused Van daily power to allow the Van to charge twice per encounter, if they wanted.
Biotic Charge Vanguard Attack Power
You channel your biotic powers into a devastating charge. The knockback causes your target to stagger around.
Daily (Special) * Biotic, Weapon
Standard Action Weapon
Target: One Creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC. You may expend an unused vanguard daily attack power.
Requirement: You must charge.
Hit: You deal damage based on your level:
Level 1: 3[W] + Strength Modifier, and the target is dazed (save ends)
Level 5: 4[W] + Strength Modifier, and the target is dazed (save ends)
Level 10: 5[W] + Strength Modifier, and the target is dazed (save ends)
Level 15: 6[W] + Strength Modifier, and the target is dazed (save ends)
Level 20: 7[W] + Strength Modifier, and the target is dazed (save ends)
Miss: Half damage and the target is dazed until the end of your next turn.
Special: If you expended a Vanguard Daily Power, you can use this power twice per encounter.
Rampage
Pretty much giving Vanguard players even more customization to their playstyle. When choosing a vanguard, choose one of the following options:
- Relentless: Once per round, when you score a critical hit with a charge, you can immediately make a basic attack as a free action. You do not have to attack the same target that you scored a critical hit against.
- Fury: When you are charging during an encounter, you can score a critical hit on a natural roll of 19 or 20.
- Savage: When you score a critical hit during a charge, all targets adjacent to you fall prone.
- Hasty: When you score a critical hit on a charge, you may shift half your speed.
VANGUARD OVERVIEW
Characteristics: You combine powerful close range attacks with an excellent ability to absorb or avoid damage. You gain tremendous bursts of power through mighty charges. You have unusually high hit points for your role, making you more durable than Infiltrators, the other striker class.
Races: Humans make ideal vanguards. Asari and Drell favor being Champion vanguards, while Krogan favor Destroyer vanguards.
Edit: with the renewed interest in ME 4th ED, I might go back to working on the races and classes again. Maybe do a stat-up on the 'Monster' races (like Batarians, Vorca, Elcor and.... Volus?).
Edit2: We probably should create a new thread for this type of stuff, instead of hijacking the 4E thread like this (unless the mods are OK with this).
As the only 4E talk happening at the moment I see no need for you to move it out of here. But also no harm if you wanted to seperate it.
WiiU: JamWarrior
Developer's note:
Are there other published campaigns that are not the D&D printed ones (the 3-4 level range books)? The last time I checked it seemed that they only offered one set for 1-20. Is there a good source or place to go to get 1-20 campaigns. I'm wondering if it's even common for people to share the campaigns that they've run, encounters and all.
As for others, sadly I don't know of any more