Again, I'm not saying that I want countries to be run by China. I never said that. But I would prefer a military standoff between China and the US that allows countries to run themselves, rather than giving either side control over 3rd world nations.
Its a false set of choices. Our options aren't 1) Treat all countries like shit because we're the sole super power or 2) Have China with all its shittiness also be a super power.
Our options are diddly squat, because we don't control world affairs.
Those are the two realistic ways that I expect the future to play out. You seem to think that everyone will come together in peace and love and magically fix everything that's bad about the US. And yet, earlier you said I was "strangely optimistic".
You know if our second hypothetical super power was the UK or France or Germany, or even some sort of idealized EU I could get behind a balancing effect, but China?
This would be your pro-western bias. Yes China has done many terrible things, but so have all those European countries.
China is continuing to do many terrible things.
America is too
American didn't magically turn into the land of rainbows and unicorns as soon as the cold war ended. We've continued fucking shit up all around the world. So far about a million people have died since the Iraq war started, and there's no end in sight to that. I really don't understand why people think that the US is some sort of moral paragon, and that the rest of the world is better off just letting America rule it with supreme force.
Yes that is kind of a given.
But this quote tree was based on internal conditions. America by and large has strong and intact human rights. So do most of the western European countries. China does not.
That's why I don't want china being a world military super power.
Also we didn't annex Iraq and then ship people over there to displace the locals.
Nor are tea partiers being send to iron mines in Manchuria.
The thing about human right is... it's easy to enjoy them when you're rich and secure. Not so easy when your country is on the brink of starvation, and under constant threat of invasion.
China's human rights record is bad, but at least it's getting better. America's is getting worse.
Again, I'm not saying that I want countries to be run by [strike]China[/strike] the USSR. I never said that. But I would prefer a military standoff between [strike]China[/strike] the USSR and the US that allows countries to run themselves, rather than giving either side control over 3rd world nations.
Direct US involvement during the cold war:
Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama
plus minor deployments in Lebanon/Dominican Republic, bombed Libya, the various arms/training issues in South/Central America.
When you ask "where in history has this ever happened" and I give you two examples, it's not really a dodge. But whatever.
I asked where 2 armies made something better and you gave me a list of an army beating on a weaker opponent. Do you think Vietnam would have been better with China going whole hog in there too?
Cuba had relative peace during the Cold War because the Soviets stuck up for them. Otherwise the US would have kept invading and funding coups until they finally overthrew Castro. It's what the we did everywhere the Commies didn't step in to seriously oppose us, such as in Chile and Iran.
Heck, it's what we're still doing today in Libya, and what we're mopping up after in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq was a result of no one standing up to the US invasion plan. And the international community allowing the US to do whatever the hell it wants in Iraq hasn't made the place any more peaceful than it was in 2000.
The idea that the playground will be more peaceful if one bully is allowed to run amok unopposed, beating up whoever he wants whenever he wants, makes no sense to me. Someone equally as powerful is needed to keep that bully in check. Either that or all the kids need to gang up against the bully.
See I'd rather have ultimate military authority on the planet rest with a country that has a relatively healthy democracy rather than splitting it between a dictatorship and a democracy with economic and political stress thrown in the mix.
Ultimate military authority over the planet is too much power for any one country. It has corrupted every nation to ever wield it, since the days of Rome. And it will corrupt any nation that clings to it in the future.
Again, I'm not saying that I want countries to be run by China. I never said that. But I would prefer a military standoff between China and the US that allows countries to run themselves, rather than giving either side control over 3rd world nations.
Except for all those probable proxy wars that would strip all of them of any real independence.
There will be wars no matter what happens. I'm quite certain that the bloodshed which has happened since... always... will continue. The only question is whether they'll look more like cuba- covert missions and blockades, because we were afraid to risk open warfare with the soviets- or nicaragua, where we started a full scale civil war that ravaged the entire country.
When you ask "where in history has this ever happened" and I give you two examples, it's not really a dodge. But whatever.
I asked where 2 armies made something better and you gave me a list of an army beating on a weaker opponent. Do you think Vietnam would have been better with China going whole hog in there too?
Cuba had relative peace during the Cold War because the Soviets stuck up for them. Otherwise the US would have kept invading and funding coups until they finally overthrew Castro. It's what the we did everywhere the Commies didn't step in to seriously oppose us, such as in Chile and Iran.
Heck, it's what we're still doing today in Libya, and what we're mopping up after in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq was a result of no one standing up to the US invasion plan. And the international community allowing the US to do whatever the hell it wants in Iraq hasn't made the place any more peaceful than it was in 2000.
The idea that the playground will be more peaceful if one bully is allowed to run amok unopposed, beating up whoever he wants whenever he wants, makes no sense to me. Someone equally as powerful is needed to keep that bully in check. Either that or all the kids need to gang up against the bully.
Yeah, that worked out great with the whole "Cold War" thing.
Jesus, it's like you people haven't even glanced at a history, let alone read one.
Again, I'm not saying that I want countries to be run by China. I never said that. But I would prefer a military standoff between China and the US that allows countries to run themselves, rather than giving either side control over 3rd world nations.
Except for all those probable proxy wars that would strip all of them of any real independence.
There will be wars no matter what happens. I'm quite certain that the bloodshed which has happened since... always... will continue. The only question is whether they'll look more like cuba- covert missions and blockades, because we were afraid to risk open warfare with the soviets- or nicaragua, where we started a full scale civil war that ravaged the entire country.
I hate to break it to you but the first requires subtlety. Something China doesn't have.
And the idea that there will always be war therefore we might as well have two super powers manipulating other countries in to fighting each other is disgusting.
Those are the two realistic ways that I expect the future to play out. You seem to think that everyone will come together in peace and love and magically fix everything that's bad about the US.
Those are the two realistic ways that I expect the future to play out. You seem to think that everyone will come together in peace and love and magically fix everything that's bad about the US.
Alright I'm done arguing with you. I've been trying my best to try and stay civil, and explain any misunderstandings that you had about what I was saying. But all you seem to want to do is respond with snarky one-liners and silly image macros. That's just a waste of time.
Those are the two realistic ways that I expect the future to play out. You seem to think that everyone will come together in peace and love and magically fix everything that's bad about the US.
Alright I'm done arguing with you. I've been trying my best to try and stay civil, and explain any misunderstandings that you had about what I was saying. But all you seem to want to do is respond with snarky one-liners and silly image macros. That's just a waste of time.
Ok guilty on the snark, but that was a pretty massive misrepresentation of my argument.
Im not saying things are going to be peace love and rainbows. I'm saying I'd rather have 1 super power with a fairly decent track record on human rights than 2 with one of them having a really shitty one.
Again, I'm not saying that I want countries to be run by China. I never said that. But I would prefer a military standoff between China and the US that allows countries to run themselves, rather than giving either side control over 3rd world nations.
Except for all those probable proxy wars that would strip all of them of any real independence.
There will be wars no matter what happens. I'm quite certain that the bloodshed which has happened since... always... will continue. The only question is whether they'll look more like cuba- covert missions and blockades, because we were afraid to risk open warfare with the soviets- or nicaragua, where we started a full scale civil war that ravaged the entire country.
So you're contending it will end like Cuba(which happened during the cold war when the US was being counter-balanced), not like Nicaragua(which happend during the cold war when the us was being counter-balanced). Basically you want to split the world into spheres of influence again, where you're either with one side or the other.
I'll also point out that Cuba was the closest we ever came to nuclear war. We were 1 Soviet Naval Officer saying yes away from the USSR using a nuclear torpedo on a US ship.
Yes, we are. Much in the same way that Britain, or Western Europe more broadly, has been in "full decline" for nearly a century now. Which is why I'm not really all that concerned about the rise of China et. al. It's a pretty big planet, I think we have room for rich Asians.
There's a nagging concern about technological progress and resource efficiencies potentially not quite being able to keep up. But there are numerous ways to deal with that going forward and fundamentally I'm an optimist when it comes to engineering solutions to tangible problems. Sociological ones, not as much.
Pi-r8 you'd probably gain more traction if you stopped horribly misrepresenting other people's arguments.
I'm really doing my best. Maybe I was a bit sarcastic, but I'm at least trying to respond to what everyone says. Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
Yes, we are. Much in the same way that Britain, or Western Europe more broadly, has been in "full decline" for nearly a century now. Which is why I'm not really all that concerned about the rise of China et. al. It's a pretty big planet, I think we have room for rich Asians.
There's a nagging concern about technological progress and resource efficiencies potentially not quite being able to keep up. But there are numerous ways to deal with that going forward and fundamentally I'm an optimist when it comes to engineering solutions to tangible problems. Sociological ones, not as much.
So how 'bout that Civil Rights Act?
I'd say their is a decline, but it only recently started a few years ago.
Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
And I find calling that bias is laughable. I mean seriously. I know being jaded about America is the norm around here but last I checked marching against the government's policies doesn't win me free hands on job training in the mining industry.
Pi-r8 you'd probably gain more traction if you stopped horribly misrepresenting other people's arguments.
I'm really doing my best. Maybe I was a bit sarcastic, but I'm at least trying to respond to what everyone says. Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
I think the bias is going both ways, here, Pi-r8. For instance, you seem to believe that America's human rights record is somehow getting worse. You not only "seem to believe" it, actually; you outright stated it.
You're free to believe that our human rights record isn't perfect and that perhaps we even do things that are bad, but to believe we're getting worse, you somehow have to believe that we've found a way to top the Trail of Tears.
Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
And I find calling that bias is laughable. I mean seriously. I know being jaded about America is the norm around here but last I checked marching against the government's policies doesn't win me free hands on job training in the mining industry.
If you march in the wrong place without permission, and stir up enough trouble, you'll get sent to prison where you'll be doing hard labor and not getting paid. We have a higher proportion of our population in prison than China does. That's not being jaded, that's just the truth.
Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
And I find calling that bias is laughable. I mean seriously. I know being jaded about America is the norm around here but last I checked marching against the government's policies doesn't win me free hands on job training in the mining industry.
If you march in the wrong place without permission, and stir up enough trouble, you'll get sent to prison where you'll be doing hard labor and not getting paid.
Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
And I find calling that bias is laughable. I mean seriously. I know being jaded about America is the norm around here but last I checked marching against the government's policies doesn't win me free hands on job training in the mining industry.
If you march in the wrong place without permission, and stir up enough trouble, you'll get sent to prison where you'll be doing hard labor and not getting paid. We have a higher proportion of our population in prison than China does. That's not being jaded, that's just the truth.
The difference of course is what level of "stirring up trouble" we're talking about. Smash some windows flip some cars? Yeah jail. Write a carefully crafted and well thought out essay advocating open democracy? Yeah you're headed to the Mongolian border in China. In America if you wanna call the government a piece of shit over and over you can get a job with Fox.
America has its problems to be sure but its laughable to compare them to China's.
Again, I'm not saying that I want countries to be run by China. I never said that. But I would prefer a military standoff between China and the US that allows countries to run themselves, rather than giving either side control over 3rd world nations.
Except for all those probable proxy wars that would strip all of them of any real independence.
There will be wars no matter what happens.
I'm quite certain that the bloodshed which has happened since... always... will continue. The only question is whether they'll look more like cuba- covert missions and blockades, because we were afraid to risk open warfare with the soviets- or nicaragua, where we started a full scale civil war that ravaged the entire country.
You'd be wrong:
Proxy wars suck for basically everybody. The best solution is a rules based international order where the use of force isn't random but predictable and constrained.
Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
And I find calling that bias is laughable. I mean seriously. I know being jaded about America is the norm around here but last I checked marching against the government's policies doesn't win me free hands on job training in the mining industry.
If you march in the wrong place without permission, and stir up enough trouble, you'll get sent to prison where you'll be doing hard labor and not getting paid. We have a higher proportion of our population in prison than China does. That's not being jaded, that's just the truth.
The difference of course is what level of "stirring up trouble" we're talking about. Smash some windows flip some cars? Yeah jail. Write a carefully crafted and well thought out essay advocating open democracy? Yeah you're headed to the Mongolian border in China. In America if you wanna call the government a piece of shit over and over you can get a job with Fox.
America has its problems to be sure but its laughable to compare them to China's.
How about Mohammed Ali? He protested by refusing to let himself be drafted for a war he found morally objectionable, and was sent to prison. And it's not like it's impossible to protest in China, either.
I guess we could sit here all day and point out bad stuff that both countries have done. But I don't see how you can argue that America has such high moral caliber that it's safe to trust them with unquestioned military dominance over the entire planet.
Yes, we are. Much in the same way that Britain, or Western Europe more broadly, has been in "full decline" for nearly a century now. Which is why I'm not really all that concerned about the rise of China et. al. It's a pretty big planet, I think we have room for rich Asians.
There's a nagging concern about technological progress and resource efficiencies potentially not quite being able to keep up. But there are numerous ways to deal with that going forward and fundamentally I'm an optimist when it comes to engineering solutions to tangible problems. Sociological ones, not as much.
So how 'bout that Civil Rights Act?
I'd say their is a decline, but it only recently started a few years ago.
I'm not seeing the contradictions you're suggesting exist between your point and my own.
Pi-r8 you'd probably gain more traction if you stopped horribly misrepresenting other people's arguments.
I'm really doing my best. Maybe I was a bit sarcastic, but I'm at least trying to respond to what everyone says. Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
I think the bias is going both ways, here, Pi-r8. For instance, you seem to believe that America's human rights record is somehow getting worse. You not only "seem to believe" it, actually; you outright stated it.
You're free to believe that our human rights record isn't perfect and that perhaps we even do things that are bad, but to believe we're getting worse, you somehow have to believe that we've found a way to top the Trail of Tears.
I think you're both right and somewhat talking past each other. Or, rather, you're using different starting points to talk about "America" such that the water mark is set at different levels on the outset.
How about Mohammed Ali? He protested by refusing to let himself be drafted for a war he found morally objectionable, and was sent to prison.
Great point! And hey! What about Rosa Parks? She was arrested just for sitting on a bus! That's also very similar!
You know what else is similar about those two events? They both happened more than forty years ago, the social institutions which existed at the time were either marginalized or eliminated. We no longer arrest people for sitting in the white part of a public bus while black. We no longer draft people to fight in wars they don't believe in.
I think it's a salient point that China's human rights abuses are mostly documented in newspapers, where as American human rights abuses are mostly documented in history books.
Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
And I find calling that bias is laughable. I mean seriously. I know being jaded about America is the norm around here but last I checked marching against the government's policies doesn't win me free hands on job training in the mining industry.
If you march in the wrong place without permission, and stir up enough trouble, you'll get sent to prison where you'll be doing hard labor and not getting paid. We have a higher proportion of our population in prison than China does. That's not being jaded, that's just the truth.
The difference of course is what level of "stirring up trouble" we're talking about. Smash some windows flip some cars? Yeah jail. Write a carefully crafted and well thought out essay advocating open democracy? Yeah you're headed to the Mongolian border in China. In America if you wanna call the government a piece of shit over and over you can get a job with Fox.
America has its problems to be sure but its laughable to compare them to China's.
How about Mohammed Ali? He protested by refusing to let himself be drafted for a war he found morally objectionable, and was sent to prison. And it's not like it's impossible to protest in China, either.
I guess we could sit here all day and point out bad stuff that both countries have done. But I don't see how you can argue that America has such high moral caliber that it's safe to trust them with unquestioned military dominance over the entire planet.
He protested by performing a felony that by definition gets you sent to prison. So did Thoreau because he didn't want his taxes to go to a war he disagreed with. They weren't imprisoned for protesting, they were imprisoned for dodging the draft and income tax evasion.
I mean, come on, at least bring up Jose Padilla and/or Bradley Manning if you're going to point to horrible mistreatment of US citizens by the government.
How about Mohammed Ali? He protested by refusing to let himself be drafted for a war he found morally objectionable, and was sent to prison.
Great point! And hey! What about Rosa Parks? She was arrested just for sitting on a bus! That's also very similar!
You know what else is similar about those two events? They both happened more than forty years ago, the social institutions which existed at the time were either marginalized or eliminated. We no longer arrest people for sitting in the white part of a public bus while black. We no longer draft people to fight in wars they don't believe in.
The Selective Service Act hasn't been abolished it simply hasn't been activated for our most recent wars. There's a pretty significant difference between the two.
I think it's a salient point that China's human rights abuses are mostly documented in newspapers, where as American human rights abuses are mostly documented in history books.
How about Mohammed Ali? He protested by refusing to let himself be drafted for a war he found morally objectionable, and was sent to prison.
Great point! And hey! What about Rosa Parks? She was arrested just for sitting on a bus! That's also very similar!
You know what else is similar about those two events? They both happened more than forty years ago, the social institutions which existed at the time were either marginalized or eliminated. We no longer arrest people for sitting in the white part of a public bus while black. We no longer draft people to fight in wars they don't believe in.
The Selective Service Act hasn't been abolished it simply hasn't been activated for our most recent wars. There's a pretty significant difference between the two.
True! I wonder if that's why I said "marginalized or eliminated?"
Pi-r8 you'd probably gain more traction if you stopped horribly misrepresenting other people's arguments.
I'm really doing my best. Maybe I was a bit sarcastic, but I'm at least trying to respond to what everyone says. Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
I think the bias is going both ways, here, Pi-r8. For instance, you seem to believe that America's human rights record is somehow getting worse. You not only "seem to believe" it, actually; you outright stated it.
You're free to believe that our human rights record isn't perfect and that perhaps we even do things that are bad, but to believe we're getting worse, you somehow have to believe that we've found a way to top the Trail of Tears.
I think you're both right and somewhat talking past each other. Or, rather, you're using different starting points to talk about "America" such that the water mark is set at different levels on the outset.
Yeah I'm only talking about the modern nations, since the end of world war 2. We made a lot of progress forward on human rights in the 60s and 70s, but we've been kinda backsliding ever since then- giving steadily increasing power to the military, police, and large corporations, while dissolving labor unions and skyrocketing our prison population. China was an absolute nightmare in the 60's and 70's, but they've come a long way since then. No the regular people still can't vote, but the communist party does at least try and listen to their concerns.
No the regular people still can't vote, but the communist party does at least try and listen to their concerns.
I'm sorry but that's kind of sticking point.
Let's see.....we've had a recent slide to the right and you're comparing that to the chinese not being able to vote? Well I'm glad Beijing listens to them at least.
Seriously dude you're comparing pebbles to asteroids here.
Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
And I find calling that bias is laughable. I mean seriously. I know being jaded about America is the norm around here but last I checked marching against the government's policies doesn't win me free hands on job training in the mining industry.
If you march in the wrong place without permission, and stir up enough trouble, you'll get sent to prison where you'll be doing hard labor and not getting paid. We have a higher proportion of our population in prison than China does. That's not being jaded, that's just the truth.
The difference of course is what level of "stirring up trouble" we're talking about. Smash some windows flip some cars? Yeah jail. Write a carefully crafted and well thought out essay advocating open democracy? Yeah you're headed to the Mongolian border in China. In America if you wanna call the government a piece of shit over and over you can get a job with Fox.
America has its problems to be sure but its laughable to compare them to China's.
How about Mohammed Ali? He protested by refusing to let himself be drafted for a war he found morally objectionable, and was sent to prison. And it's not like it's impossible to protest in China, either.
I guess we could sit here all day and point out bad stuff that both countries have done. But I don't see how you can argue that America has such high moral caliber that it's safe to trust them with unquestioned military dominance over the entire planet.
He protested by performing a felony that by definition gets you sent to prison. So did Thoreau because he didn't want his taxes to go to a war he disagreed with. They weren't imprisoned for protesting, they were imprisoned for dodging the draft and income tax evasion.
I mean, come on, at least bring up Jose Padilla and/or Bradley Manning if you're going to point to horrible mistreatment of US citizens by the government.
Yeah OK, what about them? You're right, they're a better example of what I was saying. My main point is just that the US government does not have the spotless record which would make me trust them with complete control over the world.
My main point is just that the US government does not have the spotless record which would make me trust them with complete control over the world.
So your counter is an even worse group gaining power and hoping that two groups that seem to be equally terrible in your mind will even each other out and form something good?
No the regular people still can't vote, but the communist party does at least try and listen to their concerns.
I'm sorry but that's kind of sticking point.
Let's see.....we've had a recent slide to the right and you're comparing that to the Chinese not being able to vote? Well I'm glad Beijing listens to them at least.
Seriously dude you're comparing pebbles to asteroids here.
I think you might be substituting suffrage when you mean something else here. Mind elaborating?
No the regular people still can't vote, but the communist party does at least try and listen to their concerns.
I'm sorry but that's kind of sticking point.
Let's see.....we've had a recent slide to the right and you're comparing that to the chinese not being able to vote? Well I'm glad Beijing listens to them at least.
Seriously dude you're comparing pebbles to asteroids here.
This is an example of what I'd say is a western bias- you assume that the ideal form of government must be a western style democracy where everyone casts a vote. Meanwhile poll after poll shows that what the US government does is drastically at odds with what most people actually want it to do, because our democracy is badly flawed. The Chinese system is based more on doing things that most of the population wants, without a formal vote, because if the people don't like the government then they'll just revolt.
If you march in the wrong place without permission, and stir up enough trouble, you'll get sent to prison where you'll be doing hard labor and not getting paid.
If you could not make up facts that'd be nice too.
And it's not like it's impossible to protest in China, either.
There are a number of things it's impossible to protest in China. At least if you don't want to actually go to prison and do hard labor for daring to suggest the government needs to be removed.
Again. America has a far from perfect track record, but as far as human rights and treatment of human life, they far exceed China in nearly any aspect.
My main point is just that the US government does not have the spotless record which would make me trust them with complete control over the world.
So your counter is an even worse group gaining power and hoping that two groups that seem to be equally terrible in your mind will even each other out and form something good?
Balance of power- it takes two thieves to strike an honest bargain.
The Chinese system is based more on doing things that most of the population wants, without a formal vote, because if the people don't like the government then they'll just revolt.
Ahahahahahaha.
Because every time any part of the population has revolted against the Chinese government it's gone so well for them.
This is an example of what I'd say is a western bias- you assume that the ideal form of government must be a western style democracy where everyone casts a vote.
We're gonna do this? This level of cultural relativism? Ok fine. Yes its the best form of government because through out history its been shown time and time again to deliver the greatest amount of personal liberty and to create a stable, controlled, and accountable government.
Meanwhile poll after poll shows that what the US government does is drastically at odds with what most people actually want it to do
That would be troublesome if we were a direct democracy.
The Chinese system is based more on doing things that most of the population wants, without a formal vote, because if the people don't like the government then they'll just revolt.
How's that worked out for them?
Balance of power- it takes two thieves to strike an honest bargain.
Oh oh oh It takes two arsonists to put out a fire.....nvm
Posts
Our options are diddly squat, because we don't control world affairs.
Those are the two realistic ways that I expect the future to play out. You seem to think that everyone will come together in peace and love and magically fix everything that's bad about the US. And yet, earlier you said I was "strangely optimistic".
Direct US involvement during the cold war:
Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama
plus minor deployments in Lebanon/Dominican Republic, bombed Libya, the various arms/training issues in South/Central America.
But with China I'm sure it'll be better.
Cuba had relative peace during the Cold War because the Soviets stuck up for them. Otherwise the US would have kept invading and funding coups until they finally overthrew Castro. It's what the we did everywhere the Commies didn't step in to seriously oppose us, such as in Chile and Iran.
Heck, it's what we're still doing today in Libya, and what we're mopping up after in Iraq and Afghanistan. Iraq was a result of no one standing up to the US invasion plan. And the international community allowing the US to do whatever the hell it wants in Iraq hasn't made the place any more peaceful than it was in 2000.
The idea that the playground will be more peaceful if one bully is allowed to run amok unopposed, beating up whoever he wants whenever he wants, makes no sense to me. Someone equally as powerful is needed to keep that bully in check. Either that or all the kids need to gang up against the bully.
Ultimate military authority over the planet is too much power for any one country. It has corrupted every nation to ever wield it, since the days of Rome. And it will corrupt any nation that clings to it in the future.
There will be wars no matter what happens. I'm quite certain that the bloodshed which has happened since... always... will continue. The only question is whether they'll look more like cuba- covert missions and blockades, because we were afraid to risk open warfare with the soviets- or nicaragua, where we started a full scale civil war that ravaged the entire country.
Yeah, that worked out great with the whole "Cold War" thing.
Jesus, it's like you people haven't even glanced at a history, let alone read one.
Hey Look there are fewer wars now than since tracking started, down from a high point in 91. So much for the 1 bully ruining everything theory.
I hate to break it to you but the first requires subtlety. Something China doesn't have.
And the idea that there will always be war therefore we might as well have two super powers manipulating other countries in to fighting each other is disgusting.
Alright I'm done arguing with you. I've been trying my best to try and stay civil, and explain any misunderstandings that you had about what I was saying. But all you seem to want to do is respond with snarky one-liners and silly image macros. That's just a waste of time.
Ok guilty on the snark, but that was a pretty massive misrepresentation of my argument.
Im not saying things are going to be peace love and rainbows. I'm saying I'd rather have 1 super power with a fairly decent track record on human rights than 2 with one of them having a really shitty one.
So you're contending it will end like Cuba(which happened during the cold war when the US was being counter-balanced), not like Nicaragua(which happend during the cold war when the us was being counter-balanced). Basically you want to split the world into spheres of influence again, where you're either with one side or the other.
I'll also point out that Cuba was the closest we ever came to nuclear war. We were 1 Soviet Naval Officer saying yes away from the USSR using a nuclear torpedo on a US ship.
Yes, we are. Much in the same way that Britain, or Western Europe more broadly, has been in "full decline" for nearly a century now. Which is why I'm not really all that concerned about the rise of China et. al. It's a pretty big planet, I think we have room for rich Asians.
There's a nagging concern about technological progress and resource efficiencies potentially not quite being able to keep up. But there are numerous ways to deal with that going forward and fundamentally I'm an optimist when it comes to engineering solutions to tangible problems. Sociological ones, not as much.
I'm really doing my best. Maybe I was a bit sarcastic, but I'm at least trying to respond to what everyone says. Everyone seems believe that the US is somehow hugely morally superior to China, and I find it hard to deal with that kind of bias.
So how 'bout that Civil Rights Act?
I'd say their is a decline, but it only recently started a few years ago.
And I find calling that bias is laughable. I mean seriously. I know being jaded about America is the norm around here but last I checked marching against the government's policies doesn't win me free hands on job training in the mining industry.
I think the bias is going both ways, here, Pi-r8. For instance, you seem to believe that America's human rights record is somehow getting worse. You not only "seem to believe" it, actually; you outright stated it.
You're free to believe that our human rights record isn't perfect and that perhaps we even do things that are bad, but to believe we're getting worse, you somehow have to believe that we've found a way to top the Trail of Tears.
If you march in the wrong place without permission, and stir up enough trouble, you'll get sent to prison where you'll be doing hard labor and not getting paid. We have a higher proportion of our population in prison than China does. That's not being jaded, that's just the truth.
Dude, not getting a permit is a misdemeanor.
The difference of course is what level of "stirring up trouble" we're talking about. Smash some windows flip some cars? Yeah jail. Write a carefully crafted and well thought out essay advocating open democracy? Yeah you're headed to the Mongolian border in China. In America if you wanna call the government a piece of shit over and over you can get a job with Fox.
America has its problems to be sure but its laughable to compare them to China's.
You'd be wrong:
Proxy wars suck for basically everybody. The best solution is a rules based international order where the use of force isn't random but predictable and constrained.
I guess we could sit here all day and point out bad stuff that both countries have done. But I don't see how you can argue that America has such high moral caliber that it's safe to trust them with unquestioned military dominance over the entire planet.
I'm not seeing the contradictions you're suggesting exist between your point and my own.
I think you're both right and somewhat talking past each other. Or, rather, you're using different starting points to talk about "America" such that the water mark is set at different levels on the outset.
Great point! And hey! What about Rosa Parks? She was arrested just for sitting on a bus! That's also very similar!
You know what else is similar about those two events? They both happened more than forty years ago, the social institutions which existed at the time were either marginalized or eliminated. We no longer arrest people for sitting in the white part of a public bus while black. We no longer draft people to fight in wars they don't believe in.
I think it's a salient point that China's human rights abuses are mostly documented in newspapers, where as American human rights abuses are mostly documented in history books.
He protested by performing a felony that by definition gets you sent to prison. So did Thoreau because he didn't want his taxes to go to a war he disagreed with. They weren't imprisoned for protesting, they were imprisoned for dodging the draft and income tax evasion.
I mean, come on, at least bring up Jose Padilla and/or Bradley Manning if you're going to point to horrible mistreatment of US citizens by the government.
The Selective Service Act hasn't been abolished it simply hasn't been activated for our most recent wars. There's a pretty significant difference between the two.
...I don't think we read the same newspapers.
True! I wonder if that's why I said "marginalized or eliminated?"
Yeah I'm only talking about the modern nations, since the end of world war 2. We made a lot of progress forward on human rights in the 60s and 70s, but we've been kinda backsliding ever since then- giving steadily increasing power to the military, police, and large corporations, while dissolving labor unions and skyrocketing our prison population. China was an absolute nightmare in the 60's and 70's, but they've come a long way since then. No the regular people still can't vote, but the communist party does at least try and listen to their concerns.
I'm sorry but that's kind of sticking point.
Let's see.....we've had a recent slide to the right and you're comparing that to the chinese not being able to vote? Well I'm glad Beijing listens to them at least.
Seriously dude you're comparing pebbles to asteroids here.
So your counter is an even worse group gaining power and hoping that two groups that seem to be equally terrible in your mind will even each other out and form something good?
I think you might be substituting suffrage when you mean something else here. Mind elaborating?
If you could not make up facts that'd be nice too.
There are a number of things it's impossible to protest in China. At least if you don't want to actually go to prison and do hard labor for daring to suggest the government needs to be removed.
Again. America has a far from perfect track record, but as far as human rights and treatment of human life, they far exceed China in nearly any aspect.
Balance of power- it takes two thieves to strike an honest bargain.
Who has said this? Who? At what point has this claim been made by anyone you're having this discussion with?
Ahahahahahaha.
Because every time any part of the population has revolted against the Chinese government it's gone so well for them.
We're gonna do this? This level of cultural relativism? Ok fine. Yes its the best form of government because through out history its been shown time and time again to deliver the greatest amount of personal liberty and to create a stable, controlled, and accountable government.
That would be troublesome if we were a direct democracy.
How's that worked out for them? Oh oh oh It takes two arsonists to put out a fire.....nvm
Two wrongs make a right!....gah.