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[LGBT]: Bigots can go eat a bag of [Chick-Fil-A]

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Posts

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    What positive homosexual relationships/characters in video games are we comparing all these Bioware atrocities to?

    And if Bioware was creating offensive homosexual characters and relationships in Dragon Age and ME1 and 2, why is it only after ME3 (where they do a better job) that the outrage comes up?

    Because this is the first time you've noticed it, I would guess. I've been bitching about it since ME1 but every time I've seen it brought up it usually gets shouted down in seconds.

    So what are the more positive alternatives? Or would it be better to not have any homosexual characters at all?

  • Magic PinkMagic Pink Tur-Boner-Fed Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    What positive homosexual relationships/characters in video games are we comparing all these Bioware atrocities to?

    And if Bioware was creating offensive homosexual characters and relationships in Dragon Age and ME1 and 2, why is it only after ME3 (where they do a better job) that the outrage comes up?

    Because this is the first time you've noticed it, I would guess. I've been bitching about it since ME1 but every time I've seen it brought up it usually gets shouted down in seconds.

    So what are the more positive alternatives? Or would it be better to not have any homosexual characters at all?

    Gay characters that could very easily offend the assumed straight male audience. Like a normal gay man, apparently. Or a completely lesbian woman who's not thin. So far what's they've included, admittedly that I know of (which isn't anything beyond DA or ME2), have an "out" - always bisexual (or moreso in the case of Zevran).

    EDIT: What I'd like to see, actually, is the option for the player to decide what sexuality the various characters are. Not dateable by either gender, really, but for you to determine what gender they prefer, male, female, both or none. Admittedly that could be quite a bit more work but if the setting really says "it doesn't matter" then it shouldn't be. I remember people were asking for Alistair to be able to be romanced by male characters and the studio responded that "it's not that easy, you can't just flip a switch" but in a setting where both are considered normal, it really should be. Someone proved that by making a mod where a male could date Alistair and, if I remember correctly, except for two instances of a gender specific pronoun in the dialogue, it worked perfectly and was completely believable.

    Magic Pink on
  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    I meant examples in video games.

  • SynthesisSynthesis Honda Today! Registered User regular
    Catherine has a transsexual character who is the most popular secondary character (or certainly one of the top contenders), and who would otherwise have gone unnoticed if they didn't deliberately drop hints at it in reference to the past.

    Not exactly the same thing, and probably already mentioned though.

    Orca wrote: »
    Synthesis wrote:
    Isn't "Your sarcasm makes me wet," the highest compliment an Abh can pay a human?

    Only if said Abh is a member of the nobility.
  • Z0reZ0re Registered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    What positive homosexual relationships/characters in video games are we comparing all these Bioware atrocities to?

    And if Bioware was creating offensive homosexual characters and relationships in Dragon Age and ME1 and 2, why is it only after ME3 (where they do a better job) that the outrage comes up?

    Because this is the first time you've noticed it, I would guess. I've been bitching about it since ME1 but every time I've seen it brought up it usually gets shouted down in seconds.

    So what are the more positive alternatives? Or would it be better to not have any homosexual characters at all?

    Gay characters that could very easily offend the assumed straight male audience. Like a normal gay man, apparently. Or a completely lesbian woman who's not thin. So far what's they've included, admittedly that I know of (which isn't anything beyond DA or ME2), have an "out" - always bisexual (or moreso in the case of Zevran).

    EDIT: What I'd like to see, actually, is the option for the player to decide what sexuality the various characters are. Not dateable by either gender, really, but for you to determine what gender they prefer, male, female, both or none. Admittedly that could be quite a bit more work but if the setting really says "it doesn't matter" then it shouldn't be. I remember people were asking for Alistair to be able to be romanced by male characters and the studio responded that "it's not that easy, you can't just flip a switch" but in a setting where both are considered normal, it really should be. Someone proved that by making a mod where a male could date Alistair and, if I remember correctly, except for two instances of a gender specific pronoun in the dialogue, it worked perfectly and was completely believable.

    They did almost exactly that in DA2 and everyone bitched about it. Something about how sexuality shouldn't be that fluid.

    Like, Anders is pretty clearly gay if you are a male character and they play up his former (male) love interest in his recruitment quest. If you're female, the guy was just a good friend.

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    The problem isn't Bioware writing a good well rounded gay relationship, it's Bioware writing relationships in general.

    In fact the only time their terrible over the top style really worked was with Star Wars.

    3DS CODE: 3093-7068-3576
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    And still this is a better explanation than I've ever heard from the other side.

    http://nonadventures.com/2012/04/14/gays-and-confused/

    steam_sig.png
  • Maledict66Maledict66 Registered User regular
    Well, ME3 does have specific gay only relations. Cortez is a gay man who is only interested in male shepherd, and Treynor is only interested in female shepherd.

    To be honest, whilst I understand the complaints you're making, I have to say I would rather Bioware's efforts to date than none at all. It feels like we are shooting ourselves in the foots when we "bitch" about the options given the progress that even those options represents. I also think that both gay male relationships in ME3 were actually well written and enjoyable. Heck, I'll even admit to being a bit touched with how the relationship with Kaiden progressed simply because it was so *normal* - no-one commented that it was two men, it was just accepted as fact and totally okay in the game. To have that level of "Your character is gay, and no-one cares" rather than it being A Big Thing was very pleasing to see.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Maledict66 wrote: »
    Well, ME3 does have specific gay only relations. Cortez is a gay man who is only interested in male shepherd, and Treynor is only interested in female shepherd.

    To be honest, whilst I understand the complaints you're making, I have to say I would rather Bioware's efforts to date than none at all. It feels like we are shooting ourselves in the foots when we "bitch" about the options given the progress that even those options represents. I also think that both gay male relationships in ME3 were actually well written and enjoyable. Heck, I'll even admit to being a bit touched with how the relationship with Kaiden progressed simply because it was so *normal* - no-one commented that it was two men, it was just accepted as fact and totally okay in the game. To have that level of "Your character is gay, and no-one cares" rather than it being A Big Thing was very pleasing to see.

    Basically this.

    The homosexual options/characters in ME1 and ME2 weren't perfect. I didn't play much DA, but it sounds like they weren't perfect either. ME3's are a big improvement; still not perfect, but close to the level of the also-not-perfect heterosexual relationships.

    I have a hard time seeing the point in jumping on Bioware for implementing imperfect homosexual romance options when the vast majority of other games at the time (2007 for ME1) were still pretending that the gays didn't exist. Attacking Bioware for putting them in but not as good as they could have been is "perfect as the enemy of the good;" they changed the conversation from "why are there no homosexual romance options?" to "why aren't the homosexual romance options better?" which, to me, is an improvement.

    It seems like Bioware is the one getting grief for their homosexual romances because they're the only ones even trying to put them in. Giving them shit for not making it perfect seems like a good way to discourage other developers from even bothering.

  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    My only complaint about it was that they didn't add it until people started bitching about it. People asked them about it after 1, why there was basically no male-male option, when you could have female-female (yes, I know, Asari have weird gender). I believe their original response was it wasn't part of the narrative. (IE PR speak for 'we think it's too controversial')

    Here's the interview about it.
    http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9026170

    Glad they decided to add it, personally.

    steam_sig.png
  • durandal4532durandal4532 Registered User regular
    Man the proper choice in Bioware games is always no romance. You know why?

    There is some shit going down. Like, next year maybe! But right now, I'm captain of the USS Save The Galaxy and I ain't got time.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    If Shepard doesn't get down and dirty with any and all species and genders, how will we ever teach the Reavers how to love?

  • mindsporkmindspork Registered User
    KalTorak wrote: »
    If Shepard doesn't get down and dirty with any and all species and genders, how will we ever teach the Reavers how to love?

    Shepard has to pass on the Shepard gene so that in 1000 years a descendent can use some sort of machine to relive the Shepard adventures to find the secrets to save the galaxy.

    Coming in 2015 - Mass Effect Creed.

  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    My only complaint about it was that they didn't add it until people started bitching about it. People asked them about it after 1, why there was basically no male-male option, when you could have female-female (yes, I know, Asari have weird gender). I believe their original response was it wasn't part of the narrative. (IE PR speak for 'we think it's too controversial')

    Here's the interview about it.
    http://www.1up.com/do/blogEntry?bId=9026170

    Glad they decided to add it, personally.
    They were going to include same-sex options in ME1, I believe, as Kaiden and Ashley could both be romanced no matter what (there's some data files on the disc to support that). Then they cut it allegedly for time. Then in ME2 they started the "it's not part of our narrative" line, which most people took to mean "We can't see dude Shep as gay but hey we're all for the sexy lesbian antics" and then they finally added it in for ME3.

    steam_sig.png

    3DS: 1607-3034-6970
  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot P'burg, MTRegistered User regular
    I think Taky said Kaidan and Ashley were not meant to be romanced by same-sex Shepard, but Meer and Hale both voiced all the relevant lines because they didn't have a good system for marking the lines meant only for Femshep/Maleshep.

    Spoiler:
  • Maledict66Maledict66 Registered User regular
    Yeah, to be fair Meer & Hale voice EVERY line in the script. It's far easier to have that rather than to do two separate scripts for female & male shepherds. That's standard practice for Bioware from my understanding.

  • MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
    Magic Pink wrote: »
    I remember people were asking for Alistair to be able to be romanced by male characters and the studio responded that "it's not that easy, you can't just flip a switch" but in a setting where both are considered normal, it really should be. Someone proved that by making a mod where a male could date Alistair and, if I remember correctly, except for two instances of a gender specific pronoun in the dialogue, it worked perfectly and was completely believable.

    I was actually pretty disappointed by that mod. It was super-obvious, imo, that the dialogue was all written for a woman. The language Alistair used was all female-valence, for instance, 'you're so lovely' and 'compare thee to a rose' type business. So I don't think it's as easy for the writers as just flipping a switch--which is not to say they shouldn't do it, I was enraged that they didn't! But if they have anything approaching traditional gender dynamics, it does require another script.

  • BlackjackBlackjack Registered User regular
    I think Taky said Kaidan and Ashley were not meant to be romanced by same-sex Shepard, but Meer and Hale both voiced all the relevant lines because they didn't have a good system for marking the lines meant only for Femshep/Maleshep.
    Ah, I see. Apologies for the misinformation!

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    3DS: 1607-3034-6970
  • mysticjuicermysticjuicer Registered User regular
    mindspork wrote: »
    KalTorak wrote: »
    If Shepard doesn't get down and dirty with any and all species and genders, how will we ever teach the Reavers how to love?

    Shepard has to pass on the Shepard gene so that in 1000 years a descendent can use some sort of machine to relive the Shepard adventures to find the secrets to save the galaxy.

    Coming in 2015 - Mass Effect Creed.

    narwhal wrote:
    Why am I Terran?
  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    I am highly amused by how bi-polar the church is, or rather, how out of touch they are with their own members.

    Vatican orders crackdown on American nuns (for not being anti-gay enough)
    The Vatican has launched a crackdown on the umbrella group that represents most of America’s 55,000 Catholic nuns, saying that the group was not speaking out strongly enough against gay marriage, abortion and women’s ordination.

    Rome also chided the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) for sponsoring conferences that featured “a prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.”

    Catholic pastor applauded for shunning anti-gay marriage drive
    The congregation at Seattle’s Our Lady of the Lake Catholic Church gave the Rev. Tim Clark a standing ovation Sunday when he announced that the parish would not gather signatures for a referendum to repeal same-sex marriage.

    The parish became the sixth in Seattle to opt out of the petition drive for Referendum 74 that has been endorsed and foisted on parishes by Archbishop J. Peter Sartain.

    “I am happy to report that Our Lady of the Lake parishoners have been overwhelmingly and, thus far, unanimously supportive of the decision I made NOT to gather signatures in support of this Referendum,” Clark wrote in response to an e-mail.

    “The standing ovation experienced during one of the Masses says less about me and much more about the health of this parish. I only wished the archbishop could have experienced the sustained applause — the ‘sensus fidelium’ — of the people. He needs to listen to this ‘voice.’ That is my prayer.”

    steam_sig.png
  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Yeah, pretty telling that the first story is top-down action while the second story is bottom-up.

  • MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
    How long can a single church contain both hyper-liberal American parishes and hyper-conservative African and South American parishes? Only time will tell.

  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    The very fact that entire parishes are starting to push back heavily is very interesting. My prediction is there will (eventually) be a split between American and African churches. Maybe we'll even get two popes! Then we can have pope battle!

    MuddBudd on
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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    The very fact that entire parishes are starting to push back heavily is very interesting. My prediction is there will (eventually) be a split between American and African churches. Maybe we'll even get two popes! Then we can have pope battle!
    I don't really see refusing to circulate petitions as being a very heavy push-back. Refusing to donate money? Yeah, absolutely.

    I mean, don't get me wrong, it's not bad. In fact, it's good--and good for them for doing it--but the Montgomery Bus Boycott it ain't.

    Thanatos on
  • Fallout2manFallout2man Registered User regular
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    The very fact that entire parishes are starting to push back heavily is very interesting. My prediction is there will (eventually) be a split between American and African churches. Maybe we'll even get two popes! Then we can have pope battle!

    Not only that! The League of Catholic Bishops is going after the GOP because their budget is too anti-poor. It seems the GOP's maneuver to involve the Bishops in politics may hilariously backfire for us. :D
    If history so far is any lesson the GOP loves Rich people more than it loves religious people, so they'll basically lose all that nice and politically convenient religious cover for their activities suppressing minority rights.

    On Ignorance:
    Kana wrote:
    If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"

    Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    MrMister wrote: »
    How long can a single church contain both hyper-liberal American parishes and hyper-conservative African and South American parishes? Only time will tell.
    I don't think the American churches have the balls to schism. So, they'll just do what the African and South American churches want, and get away with it, unless there is a massive sea change.

    I'm not holding my breath.

  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    Whatever happens, it should certainly be an interesting few decades as it unfolds.

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  • _gp_gp Registered User
    As a pastor (yep, I'm both outing myself and throwing down that card). I really don't think the church should say anything about this. This should be left up to the state and not really left up for the Christian "Moral" center to decide because it has been pointed out, the Christianity really can't have one "moral" standard because it is to big of a movement. Yes, I would argue that the Bible is the center of our moral code, but even in that, you'll find different people arguing over the greek and hebrew words of "laying with a man."

    Let people make their own decisions and then leave the church to decide if they will allow it in their own sanctuary. The church should be able to retain the right to not allow a same-sex marriage from happening inside their church, but they shouldn't be able to stop it on the outside.

    But then again, I'm sure that I could get burned at the stake for saying these things also.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    While some of the hierarchy might agree, if the churches that doctrinally don't allow gay marriage don't fight against it as hard as they can (in all its forms, both state-sanctioned and religious), they risk marginalization not too far down the road.

    Compare to churches that don't allow interracial marriages. Churches certainly retain the right to refuse marriage to whoever they want, including to interracial couples. But if word gets out that they're doing that, it won't matter that they're obeying their holy text - people will stop coming.

    The more accepted gay marriage becomes, the less in tune the greater population will be with the churches that don't accept it. Those churches will have to either change their doctrine or shrink substantially, neither of which most churches are willing to do (although I'm sure the Mormons will have another miraculous revelation when it becomes politically viable to do so).

  • _gp_gp Registered User
    I think the church needs to be marginalized, I think the tension that it needs to live in, otherwise it gets to power hungry.

    I really do think that right now, the church is doing what you said (in comparison with interracial marriage). When you're not allowing it to happen (or even open to the discussion there of) you're going to end up on the fringes. I'm not saying that church needs to abandon it's holy text (I am actually pretty conservative), what I am saying, is that forcing other people to follow it (by making it a federal law) isn't going work. I remember this whole papal state thing not working out for us?

    I don't think the less intune it won't be. I think that churches that aren't open for the discussion will become more irrelevant, but I think that church is becoming irrelevant as it is.

  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Sure; plenty of Christians have no problem reconciling their faith and endorsing/tolerating gay rights. There will always be some form of Christianity in the U.S., and plenty of those forms are moving into the 21st century along with everyone else. Tougher to predict the fate of any particular institution. If you're saying less influence on public affairs by the Catholic Church would be a good thing for everyone, then I'd have to agree; I'm sure it would be a good thing for the Church as well, in the long run. Getting the Vatican to admit to that would indeed be a miracle though.

  • _gp_gp Registered User
    Maybe it will be my miracle that will grant me sainthood.

  • KarlKarl Registered User regular
    MuddBudd wrote: »
    I am highly amused by how bi-polar the church is, or rather, how out of touch they are with their own members.

    Vatican orders crackdown on American nuns (for not being anti-gay enough)
    The Vatican has launched a crackdown on the umbrella group that represents most of America’s 55,000 Catholic nuns, saying that the group was not speaking out strongly enough against gay marriage, abortion and women’s ordination.

    Rome also chided the Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) for sponsoring conferences that featured “a prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith.”

    Catholic pastor applauded for shunning anti-gay marriage drive
    The congregation at Seattle’s Our Lady of the Lake Catholic Church gave the Rev. Tim Clark a standing ovation Sunday when he announced that the parish would not gather signatures for a referendum to repeal same-sex marriage.

    The parish became the sixth in Seattle to opt out of the petition drive for Referendum 74 that has been endorsed and foisted on parishes by Archbishop J. Peter Sartain.

    “I am happy to report that Our Lady of the Lake parishoners have been overwhelmingly and, thus far, unanimously supportive of the decision I made NOT to gather signatures in support of this Referendum,” Clark wrote in response to an e-mail.

    “The standing ovation experienced during one of the Masses says less about me and much more about the health of this parish. I only wished the archbishop could have experienced the sustained applause — the ‘sensus fidelium’ — of the people. He needs to listen to this ‘voice.’ That is my prayer.”

    Top story makes me sad about being catholic.

    Bottom story makes me good about being catholic.

    I R conflicted.

    Spoiler:
  • Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Unsilent Protagonist Egg Corridor?Registered User regular
    edited April 2012
    @Karl you're catholic: just feel guilty about everything you do. You slut.

    Pro tip: This also applies to Mormons, Jews, Lutherans, Seventh-Day-Adventists, and many more!

    Okay, now for some real news: The Starcraft 2 community should be applauded for supporting Scarlett, an underdog competitor who is kicking some serious Korean ass. She also happens to be trans.

    Curly_Brace on
    tQCnY.giftom_sig2.jpg
  • DecomposeyDecomposey Registered User regular
    @Karl you're catholic: just feel guilty about everything you do. You slut.

    Pro tip: This also applies to Mormons, Jews, Lutherans, Seventh-Day-Adventists, and many more!

    Not true for Lutherans. Often described as Diet-Catholic, same great ritual, 0 guilt!

    Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, I feel I should warn you: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
  • AtomikaAtomika (citation needed)Registered User regular
    I gotta say, while I may be an agnostic now, growing up Methodist sure seemed like a much better track than most of my friends that grew up Baptist or Church of Christ.

    Methodism treats religion more like a hobbyists' club. However, the old joke is true: Jews don't recognize Jesus, Protestants don't recognize the Pope, and Baptists don't recognize each other on Saturday night.

  • Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Unsilent Protagonist Egg Corridor?Registered User regular
    Decomposey wrote: »
    @Karl you're catholic: just feel guilty about everything you do. You slut.

    Pro tip: This also applies to Mormons, Jews, Lutherans, Seventh-Day-Adventists, and many more!

    Not true for Lutherans. Often described as Diet-Catholic, same great ritual, 0 guilt!

    Man, I grew up as a Lutheran. It was not a completely enjoyable experience, let me just say. Maybe because I was a Minnesotan Lutheran, though...

    tQCnY.giftom_sig2.jpg
  • KalTorakKalTorak Registered User regular
    Decomposey wrote: »
    @Karl you're catholic: just feel guilty about everything you do. You slut.

    Pro tip: This also applies to Mormons, Jews, Lutherans, Seventh-Day-Adventists, and many more!

    Not true for Lutherans. Often described as Diet-Catholic, same great ritual, 0 guilt!

    Man, I grew up as a Lutheran. It was not a completely enjoyable experience, let me just say. Maybe because I was a Minnesotan Lutheran, though...

    So is Garrison Keillor like, your patron saint?

  • DecomposeyDecomposey Registered User regular
    The Lutheran stuff I've been exposed to come from my mother and her preacher, who maintain that "The only thing keeping you out of hell is gods mercy, because we're all dirty dirty sinners. Seriously, you are sinning it up from day one, and there is nothing you can do to make up for that. But god forgives you and will let you into heaven anyway, because he's just awesome like that. No matter what you do, god still loves you."

    Doesn't stop my mother from being as bigoted and hateful as Fox News tells her she should be, but a least the religious message isn't that bad.

    Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, I feel I should warn you: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
  • Curly_BraceCurly_Brace Unsilent Protagonist Egg Corridor?Registered User regular
    Nah, most Lutherans are good folks, I just had some unfortunate messages given to me at a very young, impressionable age. My last Lutheran pastor was a cool lady, and I imagine I'd still get along with her today. But the folks who DID teach me things like "having sex before you're married is a horrible failure on your part" at least called themselves Lutherans.

    tQCnY.giftom_sig2.jpg
This discussion has been closed.