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Are women treated better in the "Islamic world"?

ShanadeusShanadeus Registered User
edited July 2011 in Debate and/or Discourse
Well, this group has made a fast spreading video arguing precisely that:

مقارنة مصورة بين الغربيات والمسلمات - Western & Muslim Women

Some of the statistics and numbers brought up in the video seem to be legit, but statistics are misleading as we all know.

But it does make for an interesting topic:

Are women treated worse over here in the "west"?
And better in "Islamic" countries?

What do you think?

Updated discussion direction:

How can one get through to these people?
Just let the free market of cultures decide?
Or ignore the mainstreamers who believe this stuff and instead support of the fringe in these cultures?

Is it even possible to make these people understand?
Spoiler:

Shanadeus on
«1345

Posts

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Do you have a transcript? Because I don't really want to watch 14 minutes of (misleading*) factoids being flashed up in my face at an atrociously slow pace, nor do I want to have to transcribe them, just so I can pick them apart.

    * - based on me randomly clicking around the video and seeing some of the same tired arguments about STDs and infidelity that Christian fundies use to justify their lifestyle.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    This is a pretty awful video. I'm 2:30 in, and it's pretty much complete propaganda bullshit, with a bunch of out of context factoids and unverifiable claims. As well as the assumption that women are oppressed here because they have abortions and don't get married.

  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    I'm just going to say no.

    PSN: allenquid
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck NONSTOP INFINITE CLIMAX POSTING you must go on i cant go on ill go onRegistered User regular
    edited July 2011
    It's pretty standard nonsense. You'll hear it a lot from a certain kind of Muslim. They just say "these things are better than in the west" then ignore the problems. Dat adultery stoning in certain places, for example. Or being able to drive. etc.

    obF2Wuw.png
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    I'm with Feral. Shanadeus, could you maybe summarize or propose the argument here?

  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Promiscuity, semi-nakednes and the free mixing of the two sexes in the West have caused a massive outbreak of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs). Western women do not only suffer from frequent boyfriends' infidelity and broken love affairs but also get Diseases from them.

    ????

  • ShanadeusShanadeus Registered User
    edited July 2011
    They have all their sources listed on this site:

    http://www.shobohat.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11144

    They are pointing at facts such as the following:
    Spoiler:

    and claiming it shows that women have it horrible in the west (here meaning the U.S.A) and then talking about how X (STD-rates, Infidelity-rates, "Happyness" and so on) is better in Islamic countries because of a number of Islamic customs and rules.

  • SageinaRageSageinaRage Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    They also only have statistics for the US. They don't give any about muslim countries, so people just see a bunch of MILLIONS of something for the US, and then nothing to compare it to.

    There might be some convincing arguments about the Muslim lifestyle somewhere, but this isn't it.

  • DoctorArchDoctorArch Curmudgeon Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Ha ha ha ha ha oh God no.

    steam_sig.png
  • MrMisterMrMister Valuing scholarship above all elseRegistered User regular
    edited July 2011
    In the USA, 29% of men reported having 15 or more female sexual partners in a lifetime.

    What on Earth does this even have to do with infidelity?

  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    I'm fairly certain most women in the western world would gladly undertake the sacrifice of possible danger to their health in varying ways in order to have more personal freedoms and liberty.

    I mean, a well kept slave may enjoy more safety and health benefits than the struggling but relatively free individual.

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    So they're comparing the status of women in America to "the Islamic world" without defining what they mean by "the Islamic world" or providing comparable statistics for "the Islamic world?"

    There isn't enough substance here to even argue with. It's not even a complete claim.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    This is ridiculous.

    This is something to post in chat and laugh about. That's it.

    sig.jpg
  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Feral wrote: »
    So they're comparing the status of women in America to "the Islamic world" without defining what they mean by "the Islamic world" or providing comparable statistics for "the Islamic world?"

    There isn't enough substance here to even argue with. It's not even a complete claim.

    This is what I'm seeing with those statistics.

    That 42% of Britons are in a second relationship explains pretty much nothing about whether or not women are better off.

    PSN: allenquid
  • OlorinOlorin Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    I also like how they point out how terrible it is for women that men are promiscuous in the western world, without pointing out that hey, western women also have the freedom to be as promiscuous as they want.

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    The "Muslim World" constitutes at least 47 nations (~23% of all countries on the world) and like 1.5 bn people (conveniently ~23% of all peoples on the world). The amount of differences that exist within group of these populations is extremely vast and almost impossible to characterize in a singular way in order to compare it between groups of others. Those other groups themselves containing multitudes and vast differences in terms of law, culture, development, socio-economic status, &c.

    So basically: buh?

    tea-1.jpg
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Promiscuity, semi-nakednes and the free mixing of the two sexes in the West have caused a massive outbreak of Sexually Transmitted Diseases (STDs). Western women do not only suffer from frequent boyfriends' infidelity and broken love affairs but also get Diseases from them.

    ????

    I can safely say the people stating these things are horribly sexist. Look at how women don't have agency!

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • ShanadeusShanadeus Registered User
    edited July 2011
    Well, it looks like everyone agrees on how misleading and erroneous their argument is.
    Updated discussion direction:

    How can one get through to these people?
    Just let the free market of cultures decide?
    Or ignore the mainstreamers who believe this stuff and instead support of the fringe in these cultures?

    Is it even possible to make these people understand?
    Spoiler:

  • DetharinDetharin Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    At least when a female friend tells me she is going to get stoned I can be fairly confident I will see her again alive and well. The Islamic world? Not so much. Also finding a woman's clit should not involve a time machine, and preventing her father from ever getting a hold of anything sharper than a spoon.

    If I was kidnapped, woke up in a lab, told they were going to replace my vocal cords with those of Tony Jay, and lock me in a sound booth until the day I die I would look those bastards right in the eye and say "Alright you sons of bitches lets do this. This one is for the children."
  • AntipatternAntipattern Registered User
    edited July 2011
    Is it society's, the state's, or a religion's job to dictate to a woman (or any person) what the capital G Good worth pursuing is?

    Spoiler alert!
    Spoiler:

    There's also a bunch of fun caveats like: "In the Islamic Marriage the husband shows the real love and commitment when he pays the dowry, the house and all the necessities of life to live with his wife a happy, secure and permanent life" Remember, you ignorant westerners, real love and devotion=money spent.

    This is of course ignoring the hypocrisy of making statements about how few women are in management positions and citing it as oppression.

    The video is designed to appeal to a person's confirmation bias, pure and simple.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Personally, I think the best way to keep down reports of rape is to stone women for committing adultery. I'll bet it's very effective in the Muslim world.

  • BubbaTBubbaT Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    There's also a bunch of fun caveats like: "In the Islamic Marriage the husband shows the real love and commitment when he pays the dowry, the house and all the necessities of life to live with his wife a happy, secure and permanent life" Remember, you ignorant westerners, real love and devotion=money spent.

    I'm pretty sure we're reminded of this every mid-February already.

  • HacksawHacksaw J Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    edited July 2011
    So does the video contain any comparisons between "Islamic World" statistics vs. "Western World" statistics, or is it just a one-sided 14 minute YouTube propaganda piece?

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    moniker wrote: »
    The "Muslim World" constitutes at least 47 nations (~23% of all countries on the world) and like 1.5 bn people (conveniently ~23% of all peoples on the world). The amount of differences that exist within group of these populations is extremely vast and almost impossible to characterize in a singular way in order to compare it between groups of others. Those other groups themselves containing multitudes and vast differences in terms of law, culture, development, socio-economic status, &c.

    So basically: buh?

    Depending how you define "Muslim World" and "the West," I'd still be willing to bet that their best countries are still about on par with our worst.

    So yeah, to the thread title I say nope. Not really.

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    mcdermott wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    The "Muslim World" constitutes at least 47 nations (~23% of all countries on the world) and like 1.5 bn people (conveniently ~23% of all peoples on the world). The amount of differences that exist within group of these populations is extremely vast and almost impossible to characterize in a singular way in order to compare it between groups of others. Those other groups themselves containing multitudes and vast differences in terms of law, culture, development, socio-economic status, &c.

    So basically: buh?

    Depending how you define "Muslim World" and "the West," I'd still be willing to bet that their best countries are still about on par with our worst.

    So yeah, to the thread title I say nope. Not really.

    Yeah. Want to compare HIV rates between a Muslim and a non-Muslim country? Okay, on the non-Muslim side, I pick Norway, and for the Muslim side, how about... oh.... Sudan. :P

    Or we could talk about things they don't talk about, like female literacy rates (abysmal in any given Middle Eastern Islamic country), female life expectancy (ditto), or the chance of dying during childbirth.

    The easy counterarguments would be some kind of No True Scotsman ("'real' Islamic people don't get HIV because they don't have sex out of wedlock!") or special pleading ("literacy doesn't make women happy; monogamy does!").

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    mcdermott wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    The "Muslim World" constitutes at least 47 nations (~23% of all countries on the world) and like 1.5 bn people (conveniently ~23% of all peoples on the world). The amount of differences that exist within group of these populations is extremely vast and almost impossible to characterize in a singular way in order to compare it between groups of others. Those other groups themselves containing multitudes and vast differences in terms of law, culture, development, socio-economic status, &c.

    So basically: buh?

    Depending how you define "Muslim World" and "the West," I'd still be willing to bet that their best countries are still about on par with our worst.

    So yeah, to the thread title I say nope. Not really.
    Life expectancy: females as a % of males, 2009: 107 (Turkey) | 106 (USA)

    Adult literacy rate: females as a % of males, 2005-2008*: 84 (Turkey) | - (USA)

    Enrolment and attendance ratios: , Net primary school 2005-2009*, enrolled: 98 (Turkey) | 101 (USA)

    Enrolment and attendance ratios: , Net primary school 2005-2009*, attending: 96 (Turkey) | - (USA)

    Enrolment and attendance ratios: , Net secondary school 2005-2009*, enrolled: 91 (Turkey) | 101 (USA)

    Enrolment and attendance ratios: , Net secondary school 2005-2009*, attending: 83 (Turkey) | - (USA)

    Contraceptive prevalence (%), 2005-2009*: 73 (Turkey) | 76 (USA)

    Antenatal care coverage (%), At least once, 2005-2009*: 92 (Turkey) | - (USA)

    Antenatal care coverage (%), At least four times, 2005-2009*: 74 (Turkey) | - (USA)

    Delivery care coverage (%), Skilled attendant at birth, 2005-2009*: 91 (Turkey) | 99 (USA)

    Delivery care coverage (%), Institutional delivery, 2005-2009*: 90 (Turkey) | - (USA)

    Delivery care coverage (%), C-section, 2005-2009*: 37 (Turkey) | 31 (USA)

    Maternal mortality ratio†, 2005-2009*, reported: 29 (Turkey) | 13 (USA)

    Maternal mortality ratio†, 2008, adjusted: 23 (Turkey) | 24 (USA)

    Maternal mortality ratio†, 2008, Lifetime risk of maternal death: 1 in: 1900 (Turkey) | 2100 (USA)
    [citation: Turkey | USA]

    I'd say that looks pretty good. Still room for improvement, mind, but not some sort of horrific gap.

    tea-1.jpg
  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Shanadeus wrote: »
    Well, it looks like everyone agrees on how misleading and erroneous their argument is.
    Updated discussion direction:

    How can one get through to these people?
    Just let the free market of cultures decide?
    Or ignore the mainstreamers who believe this stuff and instead support of the fringe in these cultures?

    Is it even possible to make these people understand?
    Spoiler:

    We're winning that battle already. Every illegal satellite dish on an Iranian rooftop, every can of Coca Cola opened in Iraq, every girl in Afghanistan that learns to read means we're winning. That's why the reactionaries are fighting us so hard. Eventually their medieval culture will be an unacceptable fringe in their own countries. Modern consumerism has so much sophistication, so much money, so much effort behind it that'll seep in from every border of your country until it has totally assimilated.

  • AntipatternAntipattern Registered User
    edited July 2011
    Feral wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    The "Muslim World" constitutes at least 47 nations (~23% of all countries on the world) and like 1.5 bn people (conveniently ~23% of all peoples on the world). The amount of differences that exist within group of these populations is extremely vast and almost impossible to characterize in a singular way in order to compare it between groups of others. Those other groups themselves containing multitudes and vast differences in terms of law, culture, development, socio-economic status, &c.

    So basically: buh?

    Depending how you define "Muslim World" and "the West," I'd still be willing to bet that their best countries are still about on par with our worst.

    So yeah, to the thread title I say nope. Not really.

    Yeah. Want to compare HIV rates between a Muslim and a non-Muslim country? Okay, on the non-Muslim side, I pick Norway, and for the Muslim side, how about... oh.... Sudan. :P

    Or we could talk about things they don't talk about, like female literacy rates (abysmal in any given Middle Eastern Islamic country), female life expectancy (ditto), or the chance of dying during childbirth.

    The easy counterarguments would be some kind of No True Scotsman ("'real' Islamic people don't get HIV because they don't have sex out of wedlock!") or special pleading ("literacy doesn't make women happy; monogamy does!").


    You could very quickly reduce this argument to one about economics, healthcare, education, etc. conditions in the countries you're talking about.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    moniker wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    The "Muslim World" constitutes at least 47 nations (~23% of all countries on the world) and like 1.5 bn people (conveniently ~23% of all peoples on the world). The amount of differences that exist within group of these populations is extremely vast and almost impossible to characterize in a singular way in order to compare it between groups of others. Those other groups themselves containing multitudes and vast differences in terms of law, culture, development, socio-economic status, &c.

    So basically: buh?

    Depending how you define "Muslim World" and "the West," I'd still be willing to bet that their best countries are still about on par with our worst.

    So yeah, to the thread title I say nope. Not really.
    Spoiler:

    I'd say that looks pretty good. Still room for improvement, mind, but not some sort of horrific gap.

    Good point. Though I wouldn't necessarily consider the USA to be the best on the western side, and I'd imagine Turkey is about as good as it gets in the Muslim world, so....yeah?

    EDIT: Which is to say that you basically just showed more or less what I said, and I still stand my assertion that any claim that women have it better in "the Muslim world" (by any imaginable definition of that term) is laughable.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Feral wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    The "Muslim World" constitutes at least 47 nations (~23% of all countries on the world) and like 1.5 bn people (conveniently ~23% of all peoples on the world). The amount of differences that exist within group of these populations is extremely vast and almost impossible to characterize in a singular way in order to compare it between groups of others. Those other groups themselves containing multitudes and vast differences in terms of law, culture, development, socio-economic status, &c.

    So basically: buh?

    Depending how you define "Muslim World" and "the West," I'd still be willing to bet that their best countries are still about on par with our worst.

    So yeah, to the thread title I say nope. Not really.

    Yeah. Want to compare HIV rates between a Muslim and a non-Muslim country? Okay, on the non-Muslim side, I pick Norway, and for the Muslim side, how about... oh.... Sudan. :P

    Or we could talk about things they don't talk about, like female literacy rates (abysmal in any given Middle Eastern Islamic country), female life expectancy (ditto), or the chance of dying during childbirth.

    The easy counterarguments would be some kind of No True Scotsman ("'real' Islamic people don't get HIV because they don't have sex out of wedlock!") or special pleading ("literacy doesn't make women happy; monogamy does!").


    You could very quickly reduce this argument to one about economics, healthcare, education, etc. conditions in the countries you're talking about.

    I don't know, I think "women being punished criminally for being raped" is a pretty special kicker that has little to do with shitty school and low-paying jobs.

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    If I wanted to give Islam a fair shake, though, I'd argue that it has less to do with the actual Muslim faith and more to do with theocracies in general, and that at the moment it seems (to my admittedly limited worldview) that Muslim theocracies are simply both more numerous and [EDIT: at their worst] a tad more extreme than any other religion at the moment.

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I wanted to give Islam a fair shake, though, I'd argue that it has less to do with the actual Muslim faith and more to do with theocracies in general, and that at the moment it seems (to my admittedly limited worldview) that Muslim theocracies are simply both more numerous and [EDIT: at their worst] a tad more extreme than any other religion at the moment.
    moniker wrote: »
    [citation: Turkey | USA]

    I'd say that looks pretty good. Still room for improvement, mind, but not some sort of horrific gap.

    I don't think it's coincidental that Turkey is not a theocracy.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    mcdermott wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    The "Muslim World" constitutes at least 47 nations (~23% of all countries on the world) and like 1.5 bn people (conveniently ~23% of all peoples on the world). The amount of differences that exist within group of these populations is extremely vast and almost impossible to characterize in a singular way in order to compare it between groups of others. Those other groups themselves containing multitudes and vast differences in terms of law, culture, development, socio-economic status, &c.

    So basically: buh?

    Depending how you define "Muslim World" and "the West," I'd still be willing to bet that their best countries are still about on par with our worst.

    So yeah, to the thread title I say nope. Not really.
    Spoiler:

    I'd say that looks pretty good. Still room for improvement, mind, but not some sort of horrific gap.

    Good point. Though I wouldn't necessarily consider the USA to be the best on the western side, and I'd imagine Turkey is about as good as it gets in the Muslim world, so....yeah?

    Perhaps I was comparing 'their' best to 'our' worst in order to test your theory? (oh ho ho!)

    The point I'm making is basically the same that's used against a lot of stupid sociological declarations. Differences within groups are often more significant than differences without. Life is pretty good in Turkey and Indonesia and it kind of sucks in, say, Serbia. The reasons for this are extremely varied, and almost none of them boil down to people being brown/Muslim v white/Western as a primary cause. The entire premise behind the question is a category error.

    tea-1.jpg
  • TaberTaber Registered User
    edited July 2011
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I wanted to give Islam a fair shake, though, I'd argue that it has less to do with the actual Muslim faith and more to do with theocracies in general, and that at the moment it seems (to my admittedly limited worldview) that Muslim theocracies are simply both more numerous and [EDIT: at their worst] a tad more extreme than any other religion at the moment.

    Even then, it still reliant on specifics of the Muslim faith. I agree that many of the specifics are shared by Christianity and others, but a theocracy based around a hypothetical matriarchal religion wouldn't have the same problems (it would have other problems). A Buddhist theocracy would seem to avoid gender based oppression, though to be fair I don't know a whole lot about Buddhism.

  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Feral wrote: »
    mcdermott wrote: »
    If I wanted to give Islam a fair shake, though, I'd argue that it has less to do with the actual Muslim faith and more to do with theocracies in general, and that at the moment it seems (to my admittedly limited worldview) that Muslim theocracies are simply both more numerous and [EDIT: at their worst] a tad more extreme than any other religion at the moment.
    moniker wrote: »
    [citation: Turkey | USA]

    I'd say that looks pretty good. Still room for improvement, mind, but not some sort of horrific gap.

    I don't think it's coincidental that Turkey is not a theocracy.

    Neither do I. Lebanon and Indonesia, for two more examples, are doing pretty good as well. In 50 years the OECD is going to look a hell of a lot different.

    tea-1.jpg
  • Premier kakosPremier kakos Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited July 2011
    Islam is inherently misogynistic and strict adherence to its principles will lead to a culture where women are treated like crap, much like the other Judeo-Christian religions. Thankfully, some countries (like Turkey, for example) choose to conveniently ignore many of the less desirable aspects of their religion and then women are more likely to be treated closer to equals.

    SuperKawaiiWillSig.jpg
  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Taber wrote: »
    A Buddhist theocracy would seem to avoid gender based oppression, though to be fair I don't know a whole lot about Buddhism.

    Ehhhhhhhhhh

    There's a fair bit of sexism in Buddhist scripture that gets glossed over by Westerners. If you look at pre-PRC Tibet, women did not attain positions of clergical or civil leadership. Some Buddhist traditions don't ordain women at all; most of those that do will ordain them only in a subordinate position to monks. And there is plenty of fear and shame applied to female sexuality; Buddhism is no stranger to the concept of the sexual woman as a temptress, a corrupting influence.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
  • The Muffin ManThe Muffin Man Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    Shanadeus wrote: »
    [/IMG]

    x3en87.jpg
    Wait, seriously?

    Did...did you honestly post this?
    This is a joke, right?

    shamanhealingwave.jpgabilitypaladinshieldofv.png
  • ShanadeusShanadeus Registered User
    edited July 2011
    Shanadeus wrote: »
    [/IMG]
    Spoiler:
    Wait, seriously?

    Did...did you honestly post this?
    This is a joke, right?

    Straight from the video.

  • FeralFeral Who needs a medical license when you've got style? Registered User regular
    edited July 2011
    well, some restaurants do use naked girls as tables.

    That's not really a new thing.

    every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
    the "no true scotch, man" fallacy.
«1345
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