I'm sorry but you are a fucking sociopath if you think the Starks in any way deserved what happened to them.
It's just not that simple. Sure the Starks had good intentions. But because Joffrey killed his dad, Robb's response led to the deaths of thousands of Lannister peasants. Someone kills your pa so that makes anything you do in response all hunkydory? The Northerners fight wars the same way the southerners do, by burning the shit out of villages. Are all the southern peasants now just supposed to go, "Oh well Robb burned our village because some guy who owns our land swore allegiance to the king who killed Robb's dad. Seems fair to us, now time to starve!"
The whole war boiled down to, "Hey you dishonored my family, so now I'm gonna kill a bunch of your peasants!" The same basic brutal war the real medieval age was stuffed to the brim with.
And in the end Robb Stark kept trying to fight the war long after things had clearly gone to hell, yet he kept trying to save it with one more battle. Both North and South are decimated, so in the end how much does Robb's noble intentions really matter? Robb's whole goal was to kill all the Lannisters, it should hardly be shocking that they fought back and assassinated him instead. No he didn't really deserve to die, but the problem with saying, "The Starks didn't deserve anything that happened to them" is that it implies that other groups did deserve what happened to them. Unjust or not, Robb's decisions led pretty directly to his death.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
They didn't deserve it, but it was guaranteed to happen. It's like roadkill, the animal is ignorant of the danger and gets beheaded by a tongueless truck.
They didn't deserve it, but it was guaranteed to happen. It's like roadkill, the animal is ignorant of the danger and gets beheaded by a tongueless truck.
As opposed to a truck that has a tongue?
And then the other wolves declare war on the...shipping company?
THE KING IN THE INTERSTATE 5, JUST NORTH OF SEATTLE
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I'm sorry but you are a fucking sociopath if you think the Starks in any way deserved what happened to them.
It's just not that simple. Sure the Starks had good intentions. But because Joffrey killed his dad, Robb's response led to the deaths of thousands of Lannister peasants. Someone kills your pa so that makes anything you do in response all hunkydory? The Northerners fight wars the same way the southerners do, by burning the shit out of villages. Are all the southern peasants now just supposed to go, "Oh well Robb burned our village because some guy who owns our land swore allegiance to the king who killed Robb's dad. Seems fair to us, now time to starve!"
The whole war boiled down to, "Hey you dishonored my family, so now I'm gonna kill a bunch of your peasants!" The same basic brutal war the real medieval age was stuffed to the brim with.
And in the end Robb Stark kept trying to fight the war long after things had clearly gone to hell, yet he kept trying to save it with one more battle. Both North and South are decimated, so in the end how much does Robb's noble intentions really matter? Robb's whole goal was to kill all the Lannisters, it should hardly be shocking that they fought back and assassinated him instead. No he didn't really deserve to die, but the problem with saying, "The Starks didn't deserve anything that happened to them" is that it implies that other groups did deserve what happened to them. Unjust or not, Robb's decisions led pretty directly to his death.
They egregiously insulted the North, and all the North was behind Robb going to war with the Lannisters. It wasn't just that they killed Ned, they killed all of his men and a lot of innocents for practically no reason. Going to war was the only way to respond; Robb fought bravely and fairly and didn't resort to coward backstabbing tactics like Tywin did. As far as what the other groups deserved, I'm not sure who exactly you're referring to, but Joffrey and Tywin deserved far worse than what they inevitably got.
No, Robb caused it. Assuming they would be safe once they partook of bread and salt was completely reasonable, and she was smart enough to try her very best to repair the crappy situation Robb caused. She had no way of knowing that whathisface would be willing to throw away every last shred of the honour of his house over the slight.
I'm sorry but you are a fucking sociopath if you think the Starks in any way deserved what happened to them.
Whoa, hold up there. Nobody is saying that they deserved to die. But there isn't a single dead Stark who didn't get a ton of advice about how to avoid dying, but did they listen or even, you know, take five minutes out of their day to try and put themselves in the shoes of the people around them in an effort to see how they would act? No. Instead, as a man, they did The Right Thing untill it killed them. Noble? Yes. Admirable? Yes. Thick as a brick? Yes.
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GumpyThere is alwaysa greater powerRegistered Userregular
I bet you're upset at me for saying this but because I don't understand empathy or emotions I don't care
Joffrey 4 life
A+ post, would read again. :^:
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masterofmetroidHave you ever looked at a worldand seen it as a kind of challenge?Registered Userregular
Yeah, when you get right down to it the Starks where all behaving honorably, but that doesn't mean they where behaving morally. It's not that letting the Lannisters do their own thing with the throne was the right thing to do, it's that they could have been taken down with so much less death if they had just been patient, found ally's that they had at court who we now know where there all along. Hell, Ned's whole part in the rebellion is barely justified beyond two of his family dying, and there where so many better ways to handle that clusterfuck i don't know where to begin. Jon is pretty much the only Stark so far to finally make the distinction between whats right for your reputation and what is actually right. I like the Starks a lot, but they've never really been heroes in the traditional sense, which are hard to find in this series.(Though i wouldn't say they aren't there, just really well hidden.)
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Goose!That's me, honeyShow me the way home, honeyRegistered Userregular
I don't think you can argue Ned "brought it on himself."
Dude was honest and honorable, but that wasn't why he died.
He even confessed to his treason and agreed to take the black, only for Joffrey to say "fuck you, you die anyway."
So no, not every Stark has brought it upon themselves.
Catelyn was the smartest Stark and died because Robb was dumb.
Ned was a noble Stark and died because Joffrey was a brat. He did everything he could be reasonably expected to do to stay alive.
Except take Cersei and her incestuous brood in hand when Renly gave Ned the chance.
And Catelyn was automatically disqualified from being the smartest Stark when she took Tyrion hostage and put the lives of her husband and daughters at risk.
Letting her son walk right into the Red Wedding despite her misgivings just compounds that shame.
Ned also tipped his hand to Cersei long before he was ready to strike. If he wanted to be all honourable, he could have taken power, then exiled them to Quarth or something. Still dumb but not suicidally so.
Not much movement for the plot line, not much progression with main characters like Dany and Stark's kids, Zombies up north, etc. And not enough Tyrion in this stupid book.
Not sure if I want to buy DwD at this point since everyone is saying it is similar to book 4. It feels like I am reading Robert Jordan's book again with no ending in sight. It feels like GRRM is trying to write fillers to make more money while trying to decide how he is going to end it, just like Robert Jordan did.
Ned also tipped his hand to Cersei long before he was ready to strike. If he wanted to be all honourable, he could have taken power, then exiled them to Quarth or something. Still dumb but not suicidally so.
Well Ned tipped his hand when he thought he could scare her off.
Then Robert (who had been perfectly healthy a week ago) staggers in, dying all over the place.
In fairness to Heisenberg there is a bit of conflation going on here between deserving one's death, bringing one's death on oneself and being in a position to see one's death coming if one stops being naive for like 30 seconds.
I'm sorry but you are a fucking sociopath if you think the Starks in any way deserved what happened to them.
Is there a Godwin's Law for accusations of sociopathy?
Let's call it the Heisenberg Certainty Principle
You are a God.
Fuck off and die.
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Goose!That's me, honeyShow me the way home, honeyRegistered Userregular
edited May 2012
All of those ideas you guys are mentioning make the character someone else and not Ned Stark. And why on earth should you not want him to be Ned Stark when he is clearly the best character in the series?
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
All of those ideas you guys are mentioning make the character someone else and not Ned Stark. And why on earth should you not want him to be Ned Stark when he is clearly the best character in the series?
Because I prefer Morally Compromised Ned Stark to Dead and Rotting Ned Stark.
[IMG][/img]
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
All of those ideas you guys are mentioning make the character someone else and not Ned Stark. And why on earth should you not want him to be Ned Stark when he is clearly the best character in the series?
Because I prefer Morally Compromised Ned Stark to Dead and Rotting Ned Stark.
Agreed. Morally Compromised Ned Stark could help others. Dead and Rotting Ned Stark put his personal honour ahead of his family and people, and can help nobody.
Posts
edit: Also blaming the victim mentality.
It's just not that simple. Sure the Starks had good intentions. But because Joffrey killed his dad, Robb's response led to the deaths of thousands of Lannister peasants. Someone kills your pa so that makes anything you do in response all hunkydory? The Northerners fight wars the same way the southerners do, by burning the shit out of villages. Are all the southern peasants now just supposed to go, "Oh well Robb burned our village because some guy who owns our land swore allegiance to the king who killed Robb's dad. Seems fair to us, now time to starve!"
The whole war boiled down to, "Hey you dishonored my family, so now I'm gonna kill a bunch of your peasants!" The same basic brutal war the real medieval age was stuffed to the brim with.
And in the end Robb Stark kept trying to fight the war long after things had clearly gone to hell, yet he kept trying to save it with one more battle. Both North and South are decimated, so in the end how much does Robb's noble intentions really matter? Robb's whole goal was to kill all the Lannisters, it should hardly be shocking that they fought back and assassinated him instead. No he didn't really deserve to die, but the problem with saying, "The Starks didn't deserve anything that happened to them" is that it implies that other groups did deserve what happened to them. Unjust or not, Robb's decisions led pretty directly to his death.
As opposed to a truck that has a tongue?
And then the other wolves declare war on the...shipping company?
They egregiously insulted the North, and all the North was behind Robb going to war with the Lannisters. It wasn't just that they killed Ned, they killed all of his men and a lot of innocents for practically no reason. Going to war was the only way to respond; Robb fought bravely and fairly and didn't resort to coward backstabbing tactics like Tywin did. As far as what the other groups deserved, I'm not sure who exactly you're referring to, but Joffrey and Tywin deserved far worse than what they inevitably got.
No, Robb caused it. Assuming they would be safe once they partook of bread and salt was completely reasonable, and she was smart enough to try her very best to repair the crappy situation Robb caused. She had no way of knowing that whathisface would be willing to throw away every last shred of the honour of his house over the slight.
Whoa, hold up there. Nobody is saying that they deserved to die. But there isn't a single dead Stark who didn't get a ton of advice about how to avoid dying, but did they listen or even, you know, take five minutes out of their day to try and put themselves in the shoes of the people around them in an effort to see how they would act? No. Instead, as a man, they did The Right Thing untill it killed them. Noble? Yes. Admirable? Yes. Thick as a brick? Yes.
He's just playing the long game
I bet you're upset at me for saying this but because I don't understand empathy or emotions I don't care
Joffrey 4 life
I AM NOT A SOCIOPATH I WANT THIS MAN KILLED CUT OFF HIS TORSO
BUAHAHAHAHA THE STARKS ALL DESERVED TO DIE!!!!
WATCH THIS STRAW MAN BURN!
A+ post, would read again. :^:
Dude was honest and honorable, but that wasn't why he died.
He even confessed to his treason and agreed to take the black, only for Joffrey to say "fuck you, you die anyway."
So no, not every Stark has brought it upon themselves.
Is there a Godwin's Law for accusations of sociopathy?
Catelyn.
I hope he doesn't kill Sam off in some horrible manner.
I like Sam.
Ned was a noble Stark and died because Joffrey was a brat. He did everything he could be reasonably expected to do to stay alive.
Except take Cersei and her incestuous brood in hand when Renly gave Ned the chance.
And Catelyn was automatically disqualified from being the smartest Stark when she took Tyrion hostage and put the lives of her husband and daughters at risk.
Letting her son walk right into the Red Wedding despite her misgivings just compounds that shame.
Not sure if I want to buy DwD at this point since everyone is saying it is similar to book 4. It feels like I am reading Robert Jordan's book again with no ending in sight. It feels like GRRM is trying to write fillers to make more money while trying to decide how he is going to end it, just like Robert Jordan did.
Let's call it the Heisenberg Certainty Principle
Well Ned tipped his hand when he thought he could scare her off.
Then Robert (who had been perfectly healthy a week ago) staggers in, dying all over the place.
You are a God.
That's great Tywin fanart
Because I prefer Morally Compromised Ned Stark to Dead and Rotting Ned Stark.
Agreed. Morally Compromised Ned Stark could help others. Dead and Rotting Ned Stark put his personal honour ahead of his family and people, and can help nobody.