Why is Apple not a "good" company?

HOLDENN

Apple: Not a good company?



In this thread, we try to answer this question.

HOLDENN wrote:

JustinSane07 wrote:

I still haven't bought any apple products in my life and I will continue not to. While Apple may make some good hardware, many of their corporate policies are just utterly atrocious and I simply do not want to support that.

May I ask what these utterly atrocious corporate polices are, and how the the policies of companies you do buy products from are superior?

Plus, I find their whole Apple culture to be revolting.

You find a peaceful, liberal arts and technology culture to be revolting? What kind of culture do you prefer in a company?

HOLDENN wrote:

VoodooV wrote:

I think you just portrayed Apple Culture perfectly in the way you phrased that response.

I don't see a problem in how I phrased my response, do you?

HOLDENN wrote:

VoodooV wrote:

HOLDENN wrote:

ArbitraryDescriptor wrote:

Apple will survive the loss of Justin's patronage, Holdenn. We don't have to have this conversation.

I think we do, because this thread really is as much about Steve Jobs as it is about Apple, and people like Justin have the potential to someday become Apple's greatest advocates if you can change their mind.

wtf?? you really need to google "apple religion" sometime my friend.

What should I expect to find?

iTunesIsEvil wrote:

HOLDENN wrote:

iTunesIsEvil wrote:

He obviously sees a problem or he would not have written that response. To me, it seems that it is obvious that there is not agreement that "Apple Culture" is "a peaceful, liberal arts and technology culture."

Is Apple peaceful?

Does Apple appreciate liberal arts?

Does Apple develop technology?

Perhaps, and this is just a suggestion, you should take it up with the person who appeared to disagree with your characterization of "Apple Culture."

HOLDENN wrote:

I asked these questions to VoodooV privately, he has declined to comment on them, ever.

HOLDENN wrote:

Heartlash wrote:

HOLDENN wrote:

Heartlash wrote:

HOLDENN wrote:

Isn't it the aim of every company to inspire such devotion in their products?

To create a product so good that it actually matters to people?

Yes, but Apple's success comes arguably more from successful marketing than either production of good products or use of amicable business practices.

The image they create with their marketing is frustratingly divorced from the reality of the company's personality.

What's different about how other companies market their products?

There isn't as much emphasis on image-creation. The Justin Long ad campaign, for instance, is far less about the products and far more about manufacturing a culture AROUND the products.

I work in ad production, and Apple employs tactics that occasionally make me want to vomit.

What's wrong with making attractive advertising that works successfully?

Heartlash wrote:

Active manipulation of consumers can cross frustrating lines, particularly when the culture you are manufacturing doesn't represent the policies of your business.

Also stop responding to everything with questions. It's becoming petulant.

How are the advertisements made by Apple divorced from the policies of their business?

People seem to refuse answering any of the really hard questions.

Is the answer really self-evident? What do you think?

Modern Man

Not sure why anyone would dislike Apple as a corporate entity. They seem pretty harmless.

The "I'm a Mac, I'm a PC" commercials did make Mac users look kind of douchey, though.

reVerse

Well, Steve Jobs is anti-porn, so there's that.

KalTorak

reVerse wrote:

Well, Steve Jobs is anti-porn, so there's that.

You'd never guess it, from the majority of my Macbook Pro's contents.

Eat it You Nasty Pig.

The whole dislike of apple seems like it primarily stems from apple putting emphasis on design (and to a lesser extent usability) that lots of long-term computer using folk find spurious. So when their advertising and messaging says "yes, these things are valuable and you should pay a premium for them" and other users buy into that, it rubs them the wrong way.

HOLDENN

Why should things be badly designed or hard to use?

Is emphasis on design just not a good thing anymore?

Incenjucar

Apple's marketing has a long history of being snobby, divisive garbage, promoting irritating, stupid behaviour in the population - and not just their own customers. I don't care for how restrictive their policies tend to be, either. Beyond that, and their often-terrible sense of aesthetics, they're a valuable, innovative company.

mrt144

Eat it, You Nasty Pig. wrote:

The whole dislike of apple seems like it primarily stems from apple putting emphasis on design (and to a lesser extent usability) that lots of long-term computer using folk find spurious. So when their advertising and messaging says "yes, these things are valuable and you should pay a premium for them" and other users buy into that, it rubs them the wrong way.

For me it's the insistence of their use by a small minority of people despite their impracticality in an enterprise environment.

Modern Man

Not all

Incenjucar wrote:

Apple's marketing has a long history of being snobby, divisive garbage, promoting irritating, stupid behaviour in the population - and not just their own customers. I don't care for how restrictive their policies tend to be, either. Beyond that, and their often-terrible sense of aesthetics, they're a valuable, innovative company.

Can you give an example of this?

HOLDENN

mrt144 wrote:

Eat it, You Nasty Pig. wrote:

The whole dislike of apple seems like it primarily stems from apple putting emphasis on design (and to a lesser extent usability) that lots of long-term computer using folk find spurious. So when their advertising and messaging says "yes, these things are valuable and you should pay a premium for them" and other users buy into that, it rubs them the wrong way.

For me it's the insistence of their use by a small minority of people despite their impracticality in an enterprise environment.

What can't Apple products do in enterprise environments that other machines can?

Octoparrot

What's wrong with a nonstop barrage of Socratic Questioning?

Incenjucar

Modern Man wrote:

Not all

Incenjucar wrote:

Apple's marketing has a long history of being snobby, divisive garbage, promoting irritating, stupid behaviour in the population - and not just their own customers. I don't care for how restrictive their policies tend to be, either. Beyond that, and their often-terrible sense of aesthetics, they're a valuable, innovative company.

Can you give an example of this?

Every Mac/PC thread ever.

HOLDENN

Incenjucar wrote:

Modern Man wrote:

Not all

Incenjucar wrote:

Apple's marketing has a long history of being snobby, divisive garbage, promoting irritating, stupid behaviour in the population - and not just their own customers. I don't care for how restrictive their policies tend to be, either. Beyond that, and their often-terrible sense of aesthetics, they're a valuable, innovative company.

Can you give an example of this?

Every Mac/PC thread ever.

How do you know PC posters aren't the source of the problem in the first place?

Thanatos

How is Apple "liberal arts?"

HOLDENN

Thanatos wrote:

How is Apple "liberal arts?"

Emphasis on design presumably?

porc

Modern Man wrote:

Not all

Incenjucar wrote:

Apple's marketing has a long history of being snobby, divisive garbage, promoting irritating, stupid behaviour in the population - and not just their own customers. I don't care for how restrictive their policies tend to be, either. Beyond that, and their often-terrible sense of aesthetics, they're a valuable, innovative company.

Can you give an example of this?

Have you ever seen the opening of an Apple store on the day a new iPhone/ iPad/ iWhatever is released. It's quite disturbing.

Modern Man

Yeah, Mac zealots are kind of annoying. Man, I'm glad you're happy with your computer. I like my PC. Me not using a Mac isn't a danger to my immortal soul.

durandal4532

Apple makes some pretty weak products.

I was big into them as the alternative to Microsoft back when they were the equally ugly but more solid choice due to the proprietary hardware. Now, they're just the pretty but shoddily made or purposefully obfuscated choice. Success means they don't need to bother competing on anything but brand awareness.

Also, they do use slave labor. But I suppose so do all electronics manufacturers.

Edit: How is how is how do you define what how is what do you how do you mean how?

Modern Man

porc wrote:

Modern Man wrote:

Not all

Incenjucar wrote:

Apple's marketing has a long history of being snobby, divisive garbage, promoting irritating, stupid behaviour in the population - and not just their own customers. I don't care for how restrictive their policies tend to be, either. Beyond that, and their often-terrible sense of aesthetics, they're a valuable, innovative company.

Can you give an example of this?

Have you ever seen the opening of an Apple store on the day a new iPhone/ iPad/ iWhatever is released. It's quite disturbing.

I put that in the same category as people who line up to see a movie on opening night. It's not something I'd do, but it doesn't bother me in any way if people want to spend their time/money in that manner.

Incenjucar

HOLDENN wrote:

How do you know PC posters aren't the source of the problem in the first place?

How do you know that Martha Stuart isn't behind it all?

HOLDENN

porc wrote:

Modern Man wrote:

Not all

Incenjucar wrote:

Apple's marketing has a long history of being snobby, divisive garbage, promoting irritating, stupid behaviour in the population - and not just their own customers. I don't care for how restrictive their policies tend to be, either. Beyond that, and their often-terrible sense of aesthetics, they're a valuable, innovative company.

Can you give an example of this?

Have you ever seen the opening of an Apple store on the day a new iPhone/ iPad/ iWhatever is released. It's quite disturbing.

Lines of people waiting for something are disturbing now?

DanHibiki

HOLDENN wrote:

Thanatos wrote:

How is Apple "liberal arts?"

Emphasis on design presumably?

How is Emphasis on design presumably "liberal arts"?

AngelHedgie

Let's see...

They actively attacked the First Amendment.
They've been caught engaging in greenwashing.
They gave into blackmail by the Parents Television Council.
They force vendors to pull products that they find embarrassing, such as a SSD upgrade for the newer Air models.
They have tried anticompetitive tactics to cripple their competition.
They make it so that users can't replace hardware that should be user serviceable, and like hard drives on the new iMacs.

And that's just to start.

Jokerman

How is Apple peaceful?

Incenjucar

DanHibiki wrote:

HOLDENN wrote:

Thanatos wrote:

How is Apple "liberal arts?"

Emphasis on design presumably?

How is Emphasis on design presumably "liberal arts"?

Engineers at Apple are liberal arts majors?

Incenjucar

Jokerman wrote:

How is Apple peaceful?

The symbolism of throwing a hammer at a movie of a dude is the most peaceful gesture there is!

Jokerman

Octoparrot wrote:

What's wrong with a nonstop barrage of Socratic Questioning?

I lawled so hard in a library. CURSES!

HOLDENN

DanHibiki wrote:

HOLDENN wrote:

Thanatos wrote:

How is Apple "liberal arts?"

Emphasis on design presumably?

How is Emphasis on design presumably "liberal arts"?

Steve jobs explains it better than I

Mortal Sky

I just disdain their pricing models (which, to be fair, can be found in custom PC builders but no one buys custom built PCs anymore) and insistence on locking down their own hardware and software to excessively rigid standards.

Thanatos

Jokerman wrote:

How is Apple peaceful?

Well, if you look at the iTunes store, they enforce peace by pulling anything they don't like.

So, you know, peace through iron-fisted tyranny. Kind of like Burma is really peaceful.

nexuscrawler

HOLDENN wrote:

mrt144 wrote:

Eat it, You Nasty Pig. wrote:

The whole dislike of apple seems like it primarily stems from apple putting emphasis on design (and to a lesser extent usability) that lots of long-term computer using folk find spurious. So when their advertising and messaging says "yes, these things are valuable and you should pay a premium for them" and other users buy into that, it rubs them the wrong way.

For me it's the insistence of their use by a small minority of people despite their impracticality in an enterprise environment.

What can't Apple products do in enterprise environments that other machines can?

Apple has an bad record of dealing with industry standards. they like to push their idea of whats "right" whether or not it makes their products less usable. like for example they want to push their future thunderbolt standard. As a result the several thousand dollar mac pro we have at my job has no e-sata support despite it being a common standard on PCs that cost a fraction of the price.

I'm a video editor who uses FCP on a daily basis. Now I'm stuck with a 2 year old version of their software because apple hates the pro market and gutted their new version of FCP. They took out stupid shit like XML support I guess because they don't want you using anyone else's software even though every pro does.

Thanatos

Out of curiosity, Holdenn, how much is Apple paying for forum shills these days?

HOLDENN

Thanatos wrote:

Out of curiosity, Holdenn, how much is Apple paying for forum shills these days?

Negative money

VoodooV

Jokerman wrote:

Octoparrot wrote:

What's wrong with a nonstop barrage of Socratic Questioning?

I lawled so hard in a library. CURSES!

I can't stop playing this ringtone now

http://www.jamster.com/Family_Guy-Stewie_Upward_Inflection/real-tones/827676120

AngelHedgie

Thanatos wrote:

Jokerman wrote:

How is Apple peaceful?

Well, if you look at the iTunes store, they enforce peace by pulling anything they don't like.

So, you know, peace through iron-fisted tyranny. Kind of like Burma is really peaceful.

Oh, there is another one - they prohibited anything controversial from the Apple Store, unless it becomes an embarrassment - at which time they add a narrow exemption (the"Fiore Rule ").

mrt144

HOLDENN wrote:

mrt144 wrote:

Eat it, You Nasty Pig. wrote:

The whole dislike of apple seems like it primarily stems from apple putting emphasis on design (and to a lesser extent usability) that lots of long-term computer using folk find spurious. So when their advertising and messaging says "yes, these things are valuable and you should pay a premium for them" and other users buy into that, it rubs them the wrong way.

For me it's the insistence of their use by a small minority of people despite their impracticality in an enterprise environment.

What can't Apple products do in enterprise environments that other machines can?

Integrate with Active Directory easily.

a5ehren

I appreciate the quality of their products, but the marketing annoys me. They'll trumpet something that another platform has had for ages as some great new innovation (example: the new iOS 5 notification system is pretty much from webOS) or they'll dismiss useful features that exist elsewhere because they didn't do it first (see: Android widgets).

A little humility would be nice - "Hey we know this didn't work great before, so we looked at what other people were doing and brought it to you" would be much better than "BEST NOTIFICATION SYSTEM EVER! WOOOOO!".

HOLDENN

AngelHedgie wrote:

Thanatos wrote:

Jokerman wrote:

How is Apple peaceful?

Well, if you look at the iTunes store, they enforce peace by pulling anything they don't like.

So, you know, peace through iron-fisted tyranny. Kind of like Burma is really peaceful.

Oh, there is another one - they prohibited anything controversial from the Apple Store, unless it becomes an embarrassment - at which time they add a narrow exemption (the"Fiore Rule ").

Do they not own their store? Do they not get to decide what should or shouldn't be sold there?

Jokerman

Thanatos wrote:

Jokerman wrote:

How is Apple peaceful?

Well, if you look at the iTunes store, they enforce peace by pulling anything they don't like.

So, you know, peace through iron-fisted tyranny. Kind of like Burma is really peaceful.

So what you're saying is War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, and Ignorance is Strength?

Feral

I don't think that Apple is a particularly evil company, but I don't think that they're a particularly good company either. Apple doesn't have any official philanthropic foundation nor do they routinely engage in philanthropy. Once in a while they'll do something nice, like donating money to Haiti, but for the most part they have an indifferent and sometimes mildly hostile attitude towards charity. Nor does Steve Jobs himself have any record of donating to charity, at least not publicly. They appeared once on Corporate Responsibility Magazine's best 100 corporate citizens list, back in 2009, but not in 2010 or 2011. They're not Ethisphere ranked. And there have been issues with child labor and environmental impact.

I also have to admit to being a little irritated by their Cupertino campus proposal. I suppose it's a good thing, economically, in the Keynesian sense of digging ditches and filling them back up again, in that any large construction project puts people to work. But there's plenty of vacant cheap office space in the Silicon Valley, there clearly isn't a burning need for this building, so it strikes me as largely a vanity project. Google has their Googleplex, so Apple wants an Appleplex.

Incenjucar

HOLDENN wrote:

Do they not own their store? Do they not get to decide what should or shouldn't be sold there?

As mostly American citizens, they can also publically announce that people with curls are all smelly smelly people.

They would just be massive douches for doing so.