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Illegal Immigration (mainly, California)
Gotcha Force
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Registered User
So i live in california, and illegal immigration is a pretty big deal in general politics.
Im pretty fucking clueless about it. From what i understand most illegal immigrants cross over the mexican border, then usually do a shitload of work in vineyards for insanely low wages and get paid under the table. A lot of illegal immigrants from mexico apparently come here during the seasons where vineyards are hiring, then send the majority of the money earned in California back to their families in Mexico.
I hear shit like this and think "well i guess that isnt that great for the American economy, but i cant be sure". However theres always articles that confuse me even more, like this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&
Of course theres the other arguments that theyre freeloading off of American soil and yadda yadda, or they have no insurance and if you get in a crash with them youre royally fucked.
Basically, i would hope someone would have some more "facts" about all of this since the most discussion i get out of it is people who are racist towards Mexicans and absolutely loathe the fact that they illegal work in America, even though most of the time it does not affect them whatsoever.
Im pretty fucking clueless about it. From what i understand most illegal immigrants cross over the mexican border, then usually do a shitload of work in vineyards for insanely low wages and get paid under the table. A lot of illegal immigrants from mexico apparently come here during the seasons where vineyards are hiring, then send the majority of the money earned in California back to their families in Mexico.
I hear shit like this and think "well i guess that isnt that great for the American economy, but i cant be sure". However theres always articles that confuse me even more, like this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&
Of course theres the other arguments that theyre freeloading off of American soil and yadda yadda, or they have no insurance and if you get in a crash with them youre royally fucked.
Basically, i would hope someone would have some more "facts" about all of this since the most discussion i get out of it is people who are racist towards Mexicans and absolutely loathe the fact that they illegal work in America, even though most of the time it does not affect them whatsoever.
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That and Spanish culture can be goddamned obnoxious to more Westernized Californians.
Machismo and Polka make me want to murder.
Even then I've heard it doesnt matter if the money goes back to mexico, because mexico is the United States biggest trading partner anyways, we will see the money come back into the market.
I'm pretty sure Canada is our biggest partner? Either way, NAFTA.
Two of my uncles have both married Illegal women from Mexico, One is the sweetest lady I have ever met, She took care of my grandma while she was on her deathbed, and is just a nice person in general, even her family is great.
Now, the other lady is a bitch. He ended up divorcing her, because she got what she wanted, two american kids and a marriage which makes her harder to deport. She was very nice up until the marriage, and then she didn't do shit. She never made an attempt to learn English, and abused his kids.
The problem I have is that a majority of Illegals are hostile to assimilating, they want to come here, have a higher wage, but not actually become American. Also, the fact that public schools are fucking outrageously slow due to English as a second language and actual English speaking students being cramped together in the same class in order to save the district some money.
I hate these assholes (John and Ken) on KFI that talk shit about Illegal immigrants as though they're a pile of trash as a whole. If I was on the other side of the border, I would hop it in a heartbeat to give my family a better life.
It seems the majority of the restaurant cooks in the Bay Area are Latino, and most often or not, come from a illegal immigrant background. Any for those who don't know, they can cook ANYTHING. Italian, Chinese, American, Mexican, Indian, you name it. I believe if you try to stop the illegal immigrant problem, you gonna lose the entire culinary base in California, which would be near short of an economic disaster.
On a more personal note, some of my friends are Latino, and have said their family is made up of/has come from illegal immigrants. If these people were stopped at the border, I would have never met some of the greatest friends of my 21 years of being on this earth. This concept alone makes my blood boil when I hear people say we should stop illegal immigration.
In addition, the fact that Mexicans are coming to this country to mainly be abused and exploited must mean the living in Mexico is MUCH worse. What I can't understand is why America is so bent on stopping this influx of immigration by plugging the border up instead of going to fucking Mexico and HELPING them get out of such a huge economical valley. I mean why do think we have no immigration problem with Canada?
Let the truth magnify,
Devils can't stop me,
But they damn sure try...
-Mos Def
We do, Mexicos leaders are a bunch of fucking idiots.
Immigrants (illegal or otherwise) have never been particularly good at assimilating. It takes a generation (or two). Their kids will learn English even if they don't. As for general culture, a generation or two later you'll see some level of assimilation, as well as some influence on society in general from their culture.
My friends family has 3 kids. They are extremely sheltered, and never leave their neighborhood, besides school, which is the only time they have to try to speak English. Their is no priority on learning English or assimilating, because they have no reason to. His 10 year old brother walked up to me, spoke in Spanish, I said "Yo no entiendo, complazco en ingles" (Don't know if thats how you spell it, I got a C in spanish
I know throughout history there has been towns filled with a Majority of a specific ethnicity (China town, Little Italy, etc) but these people had to come a tremendous distance to get here, and know theyre going to live here for the rest of their lives, so they assimilate. Since Mexico is just 100 miles or so south of the border, theres no reason for Mexicans to assimilate, they can go back relatively easy whenever they want, theres nothing forcing them to learn the language, especially since Californian society bends over backwards to meet their needs.
Mechanization is more expensive than hiring illegal immigrants. If it weren't, people would do it, anyhow. So, we save money, they get money... where's the downside, again?
I don't see it as that big of a problem, anyway. Of course it is a detriment to the individuals themselves, as they confine themselves to a smaller community, a smaller market, and inevitably isolate themselves from higher paid jobs and etc. But that's their choice, in a way, and from what I see up here, most people are more than willing to try and fit in as much as possible just because it makes their lives much easier. Families with parents and grandparents who can only barely speak passing English have children who can speak better, and through time the whole process of adapting (or assimilating, if you must call it that) should occur naturally.
Of course, this doesn't address the fact that illegal immigrants are in countries... well, illegally. That, however, is a pretty separate issue in my mind.
Why the focus on assimilation? Why is it necessary for immigrants to conform to the local customs? Obviously, it's in an immigrant's best interests to learn the language and suchlike, but what does it really matter if they don't?
Mexican officials have no reason to reform their political system. Most of the people coming illegally are the poor that Mexico doesnt want. These people then send billions of dollars back to Mexico which is the second largest source of money for the Mexican government. Why would you fix a system in which youre getting rid of the poor and politically unhappy?
That said, a large portion of immigrant workers make more than the state minimum wage, Im not saying that they shouldnt be paid more, because they should, but the notion that these people are working for less than minimum wage is crazy. These people have more power on a per person basis than most workers in the United States. If they dont get what they want, they can make one phone call and their work place will be "raided' by INS.
Is illegal immigration a problem in California? Of course, its costing us billions of dollars to educate millions of children whos parents dont pay taxes. At the same time, these people are allowing Californians to live the lifestyle we do. Without illegal labor the cost of fruits and vegetables would increase (Ill be damned if Im going to pick fruit for $10 an hour) and many of the crappier jobs, that most Californians are unwilling to take (I know I dont want to be a maid) will have to be filled. Illegal immigration is a double edged sword, and as such, its going to be a very difficult issue to solve.
Right.
And Rygar, "Generally demanding to only speak in suchandsucha language in such communities" seems more like "generally being more comfortable speaking in suchandsucha language, and having enough people around to be able to do so." They're not really (at least up here) demanding so much as just doing it, and really... so what? What does forcing them to give up their languages or cultures really do? They're choosing to speak in one language just as others ("we") choose to speak English, and English isn't inherently superior. Choosing (to learn) to speak English will open up more opportunity for advancement and much more privilege because that is how the country works, but I don't see a need to make a person reach that opportunity and privilege.
We speak a mixture of Chinese and English at home, and our habits are a mix of the two cultures through no force of assimilation except for naturally occurring practicality and a desire for advancement. I'm not sure how one could enforce 'assimilation' aside from coercing individuals to abandon parts of their culture they don't want to. And that's just problematic in so many ways.
edit: And I know it can be intimidating to see groups and whole communities who speak and write in different languages, but seeing it as an irritation and a harm to the country instead of, say, an advantage in diversity when aforementioned immigrants use such abilities to trade with their original countries seems absurd.
Also, it's really hard to juggle working a job (often in these cases, a low paid one) with raising or supporting a family and then also having to learn another language on your off time. Because in many cases it will take a conscious effort to be able to speak in another language.
Because anything different is threatening and scary. Change is bad, and the homogenisation of society into one acceptable set of norms is the ultimtate goal. I for one resent ever having to stray outside my comfort zone. I'm everybody's favourite deomographic (white/male/18-30), and refused to be challenged. *sigh* /sarcasm
For the record, and for reasons I've outlined in other threads - I do beleive that learning the language is important for safety reasons. In an emergency situation, and individual should be able to communicate in order to ask for help. This does not mean that people should have to speak english in all situations.
I also dont buy the idea that enjoying your own culture is inherently "hostile" to any other. but that seems to be the knee-jerk reaction.
The assimilation process takes a long time, but despite this it is happening, its just harder to see. Unlike most immigration which occurred in waves, the immigration we are seeing has been steady for a couple of decades. Most second or third generation Hispanics are fully assimilated.
While this is anecdotal, I dont care, Im using it as evidence:
My moms boyfriend is second generation Mexican. His parents came here legally, and he was born here, but, despite growing up in a Mexican family, he doesnt speak Spanish (we tease him about this....we're assholes). If I wasnt told he was Mexican, I would have assumed he was white, until he said guacamole (he says it with a Mexican accent....its kinda funny) or some other Spanish word.
Anyway, assimilation is occurring, it just takes time for the results to be seen.
Bullshit. The US has been fucking South America in the ass for decades.
I see you have an excellent grasp on Geography.
You're right, that should be "the rest of The Americas".
Actually, I think the term you're looking for is "Latin America." Generally covers Mexico, Central America, South America, and portions of the Caribbean.
I have to call tow companies in the southwest a lot and our business relations are made very difficult by the language barrier.
This is a glorious post.
What about the guy who refuses to serve non-English speakers in Philadelphia? Part of his reasoning was that during the height of the lunch hour rush, he couldn't have his staff walking non speakers through the ordering process, and having staff specifically for non speakers would be a waste of money. When the rush is over he's willing to have his employees take their time with non speakers, but he'd literally be losing money when someone walks up to the counter and says, 'No hablo Ingles' and he had to serve them. Hospitals need to hire translators, and like someone said, schools have to accomodate ESL students and native speakers.
I think a majority of immigrants illegal or not do try to learn the language and assimilate as best as they can, and in the past the language barrier was probably worse than it is now, it takes time for people to be absorbed into the culture, but Americans have no patience now. Especially with cable news shows telling us how bad it is every few months.
If faith is just a silent tribute, mine is just a desperate act.
Well, it may have been nearly a decade ago but having worked fast food in Phoenix I can say that the situation around there was nowhere near as bad as the cable news shows and right-wing pundits are making it out to be.
I mean yeah, there was the occasional annoyance. Walking into the DMV for the first time to find they had no study guides for the test in English (but a load in Spanish) right pissed me off. Having to wait in court while two people out of the six or so ahead of me needed interpreters was a hassle. But it isn't as if my daily life was impacted by the epic clash of cultures they make it out to be.
Maybe things are dramatically worse in LA.
But seriously, I think if having to press "1" for English is the biggest effect (other than slightly increased taxes) the whole thing is having on you, you proabably ought to just shut the fuck up.
EDIT: Also, that "This is America" sticker, complete with bald eagle, just screams inbreeding. I'm surprised it doesn't say "Speak American." And why the fuck is "Speak English" in quotes, anyway?
People can reason it all they want, but whatever the justification, at the end of the day - they're just being a bit of a dick.
I don’t have a real opinion on illegal immigration. As it has been pointed out, there are significant benefits and drawbacks to it. Like most political issues, there’s not a side that’s clearly correct.
Disqualified.
It's women are not sultry enough.
I have very little sympathy for illegal immigrants. Let's not forget these people are "illegals". Their first act in this country is to break the law by being here when they're not permitted. I don't really care if they want to make a better life for their families. I want to make life better for my family but I won't break the law to do it. They can come over here legally with a work visa. They have perfectly legal options and I have family members who are doing just that. But illegals don't want to do it that way; they'd rather take the easy road and sneak over. They take away billions of dollars by abusing our systems and putting their kids in our schools. I pay taxes for that and it pisses me off. I'd much rather pay higher prices for fruit.
So fuck em, I say. Arrest them when we find them, throw them back across the border and shoot them if they try to come back. But that won't happen because we're a bunch of pussies.
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English is not the national language! We don't have a national language, and when people assume it's English and everyone in this country should speak it, I get annoyed. The men who wrote the constitution deliberately left that out because, in the end, we are a nation made up of immigrants from other nations.
Now, granted, the majority of our populace speaks it and it is the commonly accepted national language...but failing to provide service for those that don't speak English is discrimination, and there's a reason why the mall where I live announces what part of the mall you're in both in English and Spanish.
That's entirely separate from this debate though. /rant off.
It is only cheaper on the short term; on the long term it would be cheaper and more efficient to mechanize. You are basically trading a few higher paying jobs for many very low paying jobs in an industry that already has a labor shortage.