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The American Jobs Act OR Stimulus 2: The Stimulating

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Posts

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    Tenek wrote:
    Modern Man wrote:
    I guess we'll have to wait for the 2012 election results to see who is right about whether or not the GOP is too out there for Americans.

    Yes, I'm sure everyone who votes in 2012 will be making a well-informed and thoughtful judgement.
    Maybe we should go back to literacy tests for the electorate.

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    Rigorous Scholarship

  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Modern Man wrote:
    Tenek wrote:
    Modern Man wrote:
    I guess we'll have to wait for the 2012 election results to see who is right about whether or not the GOP is too out there for Americans.

    Yes, I'm sure everyone who votes in 2012 will be making a well-informed and thoughtful judgement.
    Maybe we should go back to literacy tests for the electorate.

    People are bad at decision-making, therefore Jim Crow?

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    Tenek wrote:
    Modern Man wrote:
    Tenek wrote:
    Modern Man wrote:
    I guess we'll have to wait for the 2012 election results to see who is right about whether or not the GOP is too out there for Americans.

    Yes, I'm sure everyone who votes in 2012 will be making a well-informed and thoughtful judgement.
    Maybe we should go back to literacy tests for the electorate.

    People are bad at decision-making, therefore Jim Crow?
    You're the one implying that the American electorate is ill-informed and lacks judgment. I'm suggesting a potential solution to that. The idea of disenfranchising dumb voters should make you happy, no?

    Aetian Jupiter - 41 Gunslinger - The Old Republic
    Rigorous Scholarship

  • Eggplant WizardEggplant Wizard Registered User regular
    Progressives have their ideological hang-ups, but it's a hard sell using ideologue as an insult towards progressives when:

    The main "ideological question" at stake is creating jobs via stimulus vs. creating jobs via tax cuts on the wealthy.
    The progressive "ideological solution" is more in line with recommendation by actual economists, and actually did work when it was tried, though the scale was too small.
    The conservative "ideological solution" requires belief that money given to the wealthy will translate into jobs, despite recent historical examples to the contrary.
    The conservative political rhetoric ("the government can't create jobs!") is untrue on its face and doesn't accurately reflect the belief of most actual conservatives ("the government can create jobs, but not as efficiently as private investment"). So, it constitutes something even worse than ideology. I'm sure there's a fancy word for it. Fancier than "bullshit", at least.

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Registered User regular
    MM, you can't honestly be stupid enough to think that literacy tests would work or be constitutional, especially because they existed solely to prevent blacks from voting.

    Spoiler:
  • PaladinPaladin Registered User regular
    democrat: buy a program to educate the majority of voters to have a better election
    republican: cut out the uneducated voters to have a better election

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  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    MM, you can't honestly be stupid enough to think that literacy tests would work or be constitutional, especially because they existed solely to prevent blacks from voting.

    In context the response is a stupid sentiment though. MM is correct: if the GOP is too "out there" for American voters (and there is reasonable turn out) then it should be broadly indicated in the 2012 election.

    On some level, if they are too out there then the "keep them out" turn out should be high.

    This tangent is stupid, though I do oppose on principle efforts to disenfranchise voters (and many other facets of the US election system thank god we have compulsory voting here).

    Dis' wrote: »
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  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Registered User regular
    Unless, of course, the GOP is better at lying to people about how reasonable they are than Democrats are at countering those lies, and gee, I wonder where I'd bet there. Republicans will block as much of this as humanly possible, and take credit for whatever happens while blaming Obama when anything bad occurs because he is the God-Emperor and everything is his fault.

    Spoiler:
  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    Modern Man wrote:
    Tenek wrote:
    Modern Man wrote:
    Tenek wrote:
    Modern Man wrote:
    I guess we'll have to wait for the 2012 election results to see who is right about whether or not the GOP is too out there for Americans.

    Yes, I'm sure everyone who votes in 2012 will be making a well-informed and thoughtful judgement.
    Maybe we should go back to literacy tests for the electorate.

    People are bad at decision-making, therefore Jim Crow?
    You're the one implying that the American electorate is ill-informed and lacks judgment. I'm suggesting a potential solution to that. The idea of disenfranchising dumb voters should make you happy, no?

    No more than the idea of executing them. The solution to people being dumb is to make them less dumb. In the meantime, American democracy means two sheep and a wolf voting on what's for dinner, and one of the sheep doesn't know what "mutton" means.

  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    for once the comments on that article are pretty great

    first one
    Maybe he can use that meager $400,000 to buy the world's tiniest Stradivarius.

    Goddamn, somebody send that to the president. :lol:

    Cantido on
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  • a5ehrena5ehren Registered User regular
    Cantido wrote:
    for once the comments on that article are pretty great

    first one
    Maybe he can use that meager $400,000 to buy the world's tiniest Stradivarius.

    Goddamn, somebody send that to the president. :lol:

    Fox would just say he's "elitist" for actually knowing what a Stradivarius is.

  • TOGSolidTOGSolid I totally put, a haiku in my profile, Limericks won't fit.Registered User regular
    Because it'd a zero sum game...

    But each side is at fault for different reasons. Ignoring one side's faults and not yelling at them to improve while demonizing the other side is exactly how we got in this shit show in the first place.

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  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Registered User regular
    You solve the most serious problems first, and right now those are all Republican territory.

    Spoiler:
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    TOGSolid wrote:
    Because it'd a zero sum game...

    But each side is at fault for different reasons. Ignoring one side's faults and not yelling at them to improve while demonizing the other side is exactly how we got in this shit show in the first place.

    Not really, no. The only Democratic fuckup was Clinton moving towards the middle and supporting banking deregulation. But even that was a primarily Republican bill (thanks Phil Gramm!). The rest of the problems were Republican tax policy, foreign policy, regulatory policy, and Republican fed chairs. Thomas Friedman is a moron, partisans are sometimes right. "Both sides do it" is usually just lazy, lazy thinking.

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    TOGSolid wrote:
    Because it'd a zero sum game...

    But each side is at fault for different reasons. Ignoring one side's faults and not yelling at them to improve while demonizing the other side is exactly how we got in this shit show in the first place.

    Not really, no. The only Democratic fuckup was Clinton moving towards the middle and supporting banking deregulation. But even that was a primarily Republican bill (thanks Phil Gramm!). The rest of the problems were Republican tax policy, foreign policy, regulatory policy, and Republican fed chairs. Thomas Friedman is a moron, partisans are sometimes right. "Both sides do it" is usually just lazy, lazy thinking.

    Clinton also championed the just-recently ended Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote:
    TOGSolid wrote:
    Because it'd a zero sum game...

    But each side is at fault for different reasons. Ignoring one side's faults and not yelling at them to improve while demonizing the other side is exactly how we got in this shit show in the first place.

    Not really, no. The only Democratic fuckup was Clinton moving towards the middle and supporting banking deregulation. But even that was a primarily Republican bill (thanks Phil Gramm!). The rest of the problems were Republican tax policy, foreign policy, regulatory policy, and Republican fed chairs. Thomas Friedman is a moron, partisans are sometimes right. "Both sides do it" is usually just lazy, lazy thinking.

    Clinton also championed the just-recently ended Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

    Which is largely irrelevant to the economy/jobs picture which is the subject of this here thread.

    My cousin made this game: Gem Pop. It's legitimately fun, particularly for people who enjoy Bejewled, Dr. Mario, Tetris, etc. kinds of games. Only two bucks! If you try it out, PM me with what you think of it.
  • shrykeshryke Registered User regular
    Taramoor wrote:
    TOGSolid wrote:
    Because it'd a zero sum game...

    But each side is at fault for different reasons. Ignoring one side's faults and not yelling at them to improve while demonizing the other side is exactly how we got in this shit show in the first place.

    Not really, no. The only Democratic fuckup was Clinton moving towards the middle and supporting banking deregulation. But even that was a primarily Republican bill (thanks Phil Gramm!). The rest of the problems were Republican tax policy, foreign policy, regulatory policy, and Republican fed chairs. Thomas Friedman is a moron, partisans are sometimes right. "Both sides do it" is usually just lazy, lazy thinking.

    Clinton also championed the just-recently ended Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

    As a replacement for the previous, even worse policy.

  • MuddBuddMuddBudd Registered User regular
    shryke wrote:
    Taramoor wrote:
    TOGSolid wrote:
    Because it'd a zero sum game...

    But each side is at fault for different reasons. Ignoring one side's faults and not yelling at them to improve while demonizing the other side is exactly how we got in this shit show in the first place.

    Not really, no. The only Democratic fuckup was Clinton moving towards the middle and supporting banking deregulation. But even that was a primarily Republican bill (thanks Phil Gramm!). The rest of the problems were Republican tax policy, foreign policy, regulatory policy, and Republican fed chairs. Thomas Friedman is a moron, partisans are sometimes right. "Both sides do it" is usually just lazy, lazy thinking.

    Clinton also championed the just-recently ended Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

    As a replacement for the previous, even worse policy.

    Yeah I honestly don't blame Clinton for that. The intent was noble, but they underestimated the resistance they would face, so did what they could.

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  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    Unless, of course, the GOP is better at lying to people about how reasonable they are than Democrats are at countering those lies, and gee, I wonder where I'd bet there. Republicans will block as much of this as humanly possible, and take credit for whatever happens while blaming Obama when anything bad occurs because he is the God-Emperor and everything is his fault.
    "Reasonable" is a pretty subjective term. That's why we have elections. Maybe the GOP is objectively radical and unreasonable. But, if the American people decide to vote them into office, that suggests that the GOP isn't too radical or unreasonable in the context of American politics.

    Maybe the Swedish electorate would conclude that the GOP is too radical to be given power. But their opinion is irrelevant in this debate.

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    Rigorous Scholarship

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Registered User regular
    No, that suggests that the GOP is good at making people think they're neither reactionary nor unreasonable. Now, one way to do this is to be a political party run by adults, as opposed to whiny children, but another way is lying your ass off and hoping nobody ever has the guts to call you on it.

    Spoiler:
  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    Whether a political party is too reactionary or unreasonable for the electorate gets decided on election day.

    Modern Man on
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    Rigorous Scholarship

  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Fake Nerd I just want to be lovedRegistered User regular
    If you think that you have a choice between somebody stealing $10,000 from your bank account or $9,000 from your bank account, do you consider either person to be reasonable?

    The GOP are masters of distracting the electorate from how unreasonable and reactionary they are by painting the Democrats as even more unreasonable than they are, whether it's true or not on any given issue. A voter doesn't necessarily have to find the GOP reasonable to vote for them.

    m0G7m.gif Fo9bp.gif51ZJT.giflQAzd.gifeqWuu.gif
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Fake Nerd I just want to be lovedRegistered User regular
    I would say that if the Republicans weren't allowed to use their ridiculous tactics to basically make as many as people as possible think that every single Democrat was Satan Incarnate, then... wait, no, then they wouldn't actually be Republicans anymore and they would actually not be too unreasonable for the electorate anymore. Shit.

    m0G7m.gif Fo9bp.gif51ZJT.giflQAzd.gifeqWuu.gif
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    All but six members of the House Democratic caucus voted against Wednesday’s Republican-backed measure, which would have funded the government through Nov. 18 while cutting $1.5 trillion from the Advanced Technology Vehicle Manufacturing loan program.

    That particular cut was anathema to many Democrats, who argued that the loan program has generated tens of thousands of jobs.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/post/pelosi-democrats-will-not-support-any-disaster-relief-offset/2011/09/22/gIQA4bWOoK_blog.html


    So, republicans were playing games with the debt ceiling and now it looks like round 2: You only get disaster relief if you cut jobs.





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    Spoiler:
    -Theodore Roosevelt
  • Fallout2manFallout2man Registered User regular
    Derrick wrote:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/post/pelosi-democrats-will-not-support-any-disaster-relief-offset/2011/09/22/gIQA4bWOoK_blog.html

    So, republicans were playing games with the debt ceiling and now it looks like round 2: You only get disaster relief if you cut jobs.

    I just really can't believe Cantor's going to push for this. You know I have to ask, it seems like increasingly we're getting a Republican party that is isolated from the national electorate yet still able to wield a disproportionate amount of power. If we assume trends continue and they as a party continue to believe their failures are all for being not conservative enough, and that Democrats are inherently illegitimate rulers, how long until the vitriol reached the levels where politicians start encouraging violence George Wallace style?

    I mean as we can see with the Jobs act, they are against everything that would stimulate the economy and help them economically. That's just going to make them poorer, and more angry, and then lead them to do things that make them poorer and angrier and vote in angrier and angrier conservatives. At what point does it boil over into violence in the streets or where else would it go? I mean I'm sure we've got a lot of real Republican statesmen but there are some congressman I wouldn't put it past to try and become some kind of mob-like figurehead if they thought they and their party were going to lose all effective power long term. (Like Bachmann, possibly Allen West and probably a lot of Tea Party freshman.)

    On Ignorance:
    Kana wrote:
    If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"

    Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    Derrick wrote:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/2chambers/post/pelosi-democrats-will-not-support-any-disaster-relief-offset/2011/09/22/gIQA4bWOoK_blog.html

    So, republicans were playing games with the debt ceiling and now it looks like round 2: You only get disaster relief if you cut jobs.

    I just really can't believe Cantor's going to push for this. You know I have to ask, it seems like increasingly we're getting a Republican party that is isolated from the national electorate yet still able to wield a disproportionate amount of power. If we assume trends continue and they as a party continue to believe their failures are all for being not conservative enough, and that Democrats are inherently illegitimate rulers, how long until the vitriol reached the levels where politicians start encouraging violence George Wallace style?

    I mean as we can see with the Jobs act, they are against everything that would stimulate the economy and help them economically. That's just going to make them poorer, and more angry, and then lead them to do things that make them poorer and angrier and vote in angrier and angrier conservatives. At what point does it boil over into violence in the streets or where else would it go? I mean I'm sure we've got a lot of real Republican statesmen but there are some congressman I wouldn't put it past to try and become some kind of mob-like figurehead if they thought they and their party were going to lose all effective power long term. (Like Bachmann, possibly Allen West and probably a lot of Tea Party freshman.)
    You're assuming that there is an informed citizenry.

  • VanguardVanguard for the Night is Dark and Full of Big Areolas Registered User regular
    Violent social action will never happen in this country. At least not the productive kind.

    Vanguard on
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  • ZythonZython Registered User regular
    Paladin wrote:
    democrat: buy a program to educate the majority of voters to have a better election
    republican: cut out the uneducated voters to have a better election

    But Paladin, such a program would have a liberal bias, because it will hold Republicans accountable for the things they've said and done!

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    There's a long history of violent social action in this country. We've had a couple generations where this has faded away - largely because of the economic growth of the 1950s-1990s - but that says nothing about what will happen if that growth is gone forever.

  • VanguardVanguard for the Night is Dark and Full of Big Areolas Registered User regular
    I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I have little faith that things will ever get to the point where informed, organized groups of people are in a position to scare our elected figures into being human beings again.

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  • Fallout2manFallout2man Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote:
    Violent social action will never happen in this country. At least not the productive kind.

    That's the point. It feels like we're in a dangerous cycle because while as a percentage the hardcore conservative types like the Tea Party make up a small percentage of our total population, in sheer numbers they're still a sizable chunk of people. What happens if that chunk one day as a whole wakes up and says "America has failed us! Those dirty illegals and gays are out there turnin' my children into commie-fags and I can't do anything about it?! Time for a second amendment solution!"

    Because if these people are being bred and raised to be cut off from objective sources of information, to tune out debate, to tune out rational arguments and instead listen to charged (possibly religiously inspired) rhetoric which compels their loyalty to a cause that claims to have their best interests at heart while actively seeking to undermine them and instead of blaming the people actually responsible they blame their political opposition.

    Because of social and political history these people define their entire world around a set of harsh social norms and any attempt to change those they see as a direct assault on their ability to be happy as people. (Look at how gays are blamed for natural disasters and other things, it's like they can't accept that these people are not the cause for all of their problems.) So as they see what little power they had left to enforce these horrible policies erode away and their numbers dwindle I feel like that's just going to drive a wedge so hard it will push these people off of a cliff. All you need is the right opportunistic demagogue and I could see these people forming some kind of violent opposition. That worries me.

    Fallout2man on
    On Ignorance:
    Kana wrote:
    If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"

    Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
  • AstaerethAstaereth Registered User regular
    I realized yesterday that the problem with American politics is that we have a party of reasonable, flawed human beings, and then we have the party of Space Parasites. The Democrats are like "I propose we increase our economic stimulus in order to provide jobs," and the Space Parasites click their mandibles and counter-propose that we harvest all resources and then flee to a planet that hasn't been harvested yet.

    And then the Democrats are like, "I don't know... What if we compromised and only sucked out half the lifeblood of our society?" And even that makes the Space Parasites angrily question the Democrats' commitment to Sparkle Motion. And then the public looks at both parties and then votes for whichever candidate has the sleekest proboscis.

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  • VanguardVanguard for the Night is Dark and Full of Big Areolas Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote:
    Violent social action will never happen in this country. At least not the productive kind.

    That's the point. It feels like we're in a dangerous cycle because while as a percentage the hardcore conservative types like the Tea Party make up a small percentage of our total population, in sheer numbers they're still a sizable chunk of people. What happens if that chunk one day as a whole wakes up and says "America has failed us! Those dirty illegals and gays are out there turnin' my children into commie-fags and I can't do anything about it?! Time for a second amendment solution!"

    Because if these people are being bred and raised to be cut off from objective sources of information, to tune out debate, to tune out rational arguments and instead listen to charged (possibly religiously inspired) rhetoric which compels their loyalty to a cause that claims to have their best interests at heart while actively seeking to undermine them and instead of blaming the people actually responsible they blame their political opposition.

    Because of social and political history these people define their entire world around a set of harsh social norms and any attempt to change those they see as a direct assault on their ability to be happy as people. (Look at how gays are blamed for natural disasters and other things, it's like they can't accept that these people are not the cause for all of their problems.) So as they see what little power they had left to enforce these horrible policies erode away and their numbers dwindle I feel like that's just going to drive a wedge so hard it will push these people off of a cliff. All you need is the right opportunistic demagogue and I could see these people forming some kind of violent opposition. That worries me.

    Now I understand how conservatives must of felt in the 60s when they saw all the hippies. The Tea Party are the Hippies of our time, but at least they had an excuse: LSD is one hell of a drug. These people are just fucking loony tunes.

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  • VeritasVRVeritasVR Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote:
    Now I understand how conservatives must of felt in the 60s when they saw all the hippies. The Tea Party are the Hippies of our time, but at least they had an excuse: LSD is one hell of a drug. These people are just fucking loony tunes.

    The analogy breaks down when you consider the military.

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  • L Ron HowardL Ron Howard Registered User regular
    I don't think a good majority of the hippies thought that executing others was a viable solution to issues.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    I think the fact that the 60s conservatives found peace, love and pot smoking to be so terrifying to mostly indicate that conservatives have been batshit crazy for a long time.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    I think the fact that the 60s conservatives found peace, love and pot smoking to be so terrifying to mostly indicate that conservatives have been batshit crazy for a long time.

  • VanguardVanguard for the Night is Dark and Full of Big Areolas Registered User regular
    You're missing the point of that comment, which was mostly to have fun. However, they are occupying the same political space, I think. That their beliefs are so opposed to each other makes sense. After all, Hippies are generally thought of as the left of the left. The Tea Party is the insane asylum all the way down on the other side of the aisle.

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  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote:
    Violent social action will never happen in this country. At least not the productive kind.

    That's the point. It feels like we're in a dangerous cycle because while as a percentage the hardcore conservative types like the Tea Party make up a small percentage of our total population, in sheer numbers they're still a sizable chunk of people. What happens if that chunk one day as a whole wakes up and says "America has failed us! Those dirty illegals and gays are out there turnin' my children into commie-fags and I can't do anything about it?! Time for a second amendment solution!"

    Because if these people are being bred and raised to be cut off from objective sources of information, to tune out debate, to tune out rational arguments and instead listen to charged (possibly religiously inspired) rhetoric which compels their loyalty to a cause that claims to have their best interests at heart while actively seeking to undermine them and instead of blaming the people actually responsible they blame their political opposition.

    Because of social and political history these people define their entire world around a set of harsh social norms and any attempt to change those they see as a direct assault on their ability to be happy as people. (Look at how gays are blamed for natural disasters and other things, it's like they can't accept that these people are not the cause for all of their problems.) So as they see what little power they had left to enforce these horrible policies erode away and their numbers dwindle I feel like that's just going to drive a wedge so hard it will push these people off of a cliff. All you need is the right opportunistic demagogue and I could see these people forming some kind of violent opposition. That worries me.
    God, there is nothing I look forward to more than the Tea Party rising up in violent revolution, then being put down like a mad dog by the U.S. Military.

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