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Colonialism is Alive and well

TheNomadicCircleTheNomadicCircle Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
edited September 2011 in Debate and/or Discourse
Where do you see colonialism at work and do you realize it? I certainly do. I see it happening in China and Russia in Inner Asia or commonly called Central Asia. Regarding China, they still occupy 2 areas which aren't Chinese in History at all and on top of that they are bringing in mass waves of Han Chinese to change the demographic and then claim that they were "Chinese" all along. Uighur nationalism and separatists are trying to free this realm alongside the Mongols who are trying the same in Inner Mongolia. Both of these separatist groups have been fighting for 50+ years to try and free themselves.

In Russia, mainly after the Soviet Union collapsed, one would think that the USSR would have ended. Not so. What we currently have is a bunch of government headed by former Soviet lackey's still asking Moscow to call the shots. This is especially true in Kazakhstan which has changed its demographics so much that almost half of its population is Russian. Especially in Siberia and east of the Urals, their colonialism has not ended and not only is it political domination but language domination is hugely evident with the continually loss of independent languages in the face of Russian. There are even large swaths of land which do not have any Russians but are still dominated by them. Religious colonialism has affected them so much that they have in effect "lost" the religions of the land in return for Atheism.

So what can we do to help them? I would say support the Uighur, even in covert operations if need be and separate Russia long the Ural borders. We should also support an "Arab Spring" sort of revolution in Central Asia so at least the people there can be free of these tyrannical rulers. The question is quite clear, what can we still do to finally kill colonialism and bury it for good? How should locals be empowered to fight off foreign powers so that their lands remain secure for themselves?

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  • HacksawHacksaw J Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    Clearly the oppressed just need to be pushing barrels of tea into harbors with greater frequency. It worked for us!

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. Registered User regular
    So more cold war era proxy wars?

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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    There are even large swaths of land which do not have any Russians but are still dominated by them. Religious colonialism has affected them so much that they have in effect "lost" the religions of the land in return for Atheism.

    What exactly do these mean? Is the Russian government remotely forcing them to speak Russian and be Atheists? If they're choosing to do it on their own then I don't think anything particularly needs to be done. I'm all for global linguistic decomplication and the abandonment of mystical thinking.

  • JarsJars Registered User regular
    China has been pouring resources into developing african countries. they will definitely be the biggest player in that area since most african nations have plenty of natural resources but are too backwards to get them out.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Jars wrote:
    China has been pouring resources into developing african countries. they will definitely be the biggest player in that area since most african nations have plenty of natural resources but are too backwards to get them out.

    They are also investing heavily in Latin America and dipping their toes into the Middle East. And while I haven't seen anything on this, I'd be shocked if they weren't doing the same thing in Southeast and Central Asia.

  • UrcbubUrcbub Registered User
    Why wouldn't China invest heavily in places rich in untapped resources?

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. Registered User regular
    So more cold war era proxy wars?

    My thinking, and its only my thinking, is that the cold war never ended. We've only switched players in the game. And if these areas are to be free from colonial domination, a proxy war will not be so ineffective provided we can assure them victory and actually get that.
    So you're essentially saying the solution to colonialism from Russia is colonialism from America?

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  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    So more cold war era proxy wars?

    My thinking, and its only my thinking, is that the cold war never ended. We've only switched players in the game. And if these areas are to be free from colonial domination, a proxy war will not be so ineffective provided we can assure them victory and actually get that.
    So you're essentially saying the solution to colonialism from Russia is colonialism from America?

    I think TNC is from somewhere in the middle east and lives in Canada, so I'm honestly not sure who his 'we' is. Unless he's calling for the D&D forum-goers to mobilize in defence of Russia and Central Asia.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. Registered User regular
    Hey I'd rather be colonized by the west rather than Russia.

    At least we serve our soda cold.

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  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    :shrug:

    Attempts to naturalize or otherwise assimilate a population which is actually older in an area are hardly new, and are hardly restricted to Central Asia, even now.

    Invariably it involves frequent injustice. Rarely is it effectively resisted. The PRC is already well aware of separatism within its territory; while Russia now prefers to encourage separation of disputed areas along its own border (whilst the separated territory's government remains in the Russian sphere of influence), the PRC is still very hot on territorial integrity. Hence all the moving around of ethnicities.

    It is certainly the case that the West would not support expulsion of ethnic Russians from Kazakhstan or Han Chinese from western China, especially after a generation or so, regardless of whether it was imperialist or unjust to move these ethncities there to begin with.

    Given that there is very little reason to believe that restoring a multiple-decade-old ethnic claim to a national territory is actually crucial to material welfare, and that there is every reason to think that a confrontation with the PRC in this area would be potentially very expensive, I doubt anything will be done.

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    In particular, at this point in time the PRC can, and has, stood up and said "no we're crushing a Muslim fundamentalist insurgency in our own territory". The West, at least nomimally, accepts freedom of movement and freedom of religion, so the fact that there are suddenly a lot of Han Chinese non-Muslims in what has been, for several centuries, an ethnically non-Han and Muslim population in a territory that was effectively annexed by the PRC only relatively recently is going to be difficult to directly dispute, unless someone cares to pick on China's claim to the territory to begin with, and take on the fiction that the migrants are acting outside of state initiative (i.e., migrating on their own will within their own country).

    Which no country is going to in the foreseeable future. Perhaps a vast reserve of oil might be suddenly discovered, or perhaps something regarding Taiwan might heat up and then parts of West China are used as bargaining chips, but I don't really regard either as likely...

  • Modern ManModern Man Registered User regular
    So what can we do to help them? I would say support the Uighur, even in covert operations if need be and separate Russia long the Ural borders. We should also support an "Arab Spring" sort of revolution in Central Asia so at least the people there can be free of these tyrannical rulers. The question is quite clear, what can we still do to finally kill colonialism and bury it for good? How should locals be empowered to fight off foreign powers so that their lands remain secure for themselves?
    This is a really, really bad idea. How do you think we would react if China started covertly aiding aTexan separatist movement? Messing around in the internal affairs of another nuclear power is a very good way to turn a cold war hot.

  • Steel AngelSteel Angel Registered User regular
    Modern Man wrote:
    So what can we do to help them? I would say support the Uighur, even in covert operations if need be and separate Russia long the Ural borders. We should also support an "Arab Spring" sort of revolution in Central Asia so at least the people there can be free of these tyrannical rulers. The question is quite clear, what can we still do to finally kill colonialism and bury it for good? How should locals be empowered to fight off foreign powers so that their lands remain secure for themselves?
    This is a really, really bad idea. How do you think we would react if China started covertly aiding aTexan separatist movement? Messing around in the internal affairs of another nuclear power is a very good way to turn a cold war hot.

    Pretty sure Tibet has first dibs on any support before the Uighurs since they've been dealing with China claiming their stuff for longer. Guerilla operations on the part of the Tibetans don't exactly have the best success rate either looking at history so advocating it for the Uighurs is really a nonstarter. Covert operations on the West's part also have been a mixed bag at best looking back at the attempts to bolster the Nationalist Chinese after WWII ended but their civil war was still going. The communists in China have gotten more than just a tad stronger since then too. The Chinese themselves tried a Jasmine revolution after watching early Arab Spring activity. Note how you don't hear a peep about this anymore. It got crushed really, really fast and this is with a group that doesn't stick out ethnically. I don't see an attempt at something similar by a minority having any greater chances of success.

  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    Modern Man wrote:
    So what can we do to help them? I would say support the Uighur, even in covert operations if need be and separate Russia long the Ural borders. We should also support an "Arab Spring" sort of revolution in Central Asia so at least the people there can be free of these tyrannical rulers. The question is quite clear, what can we still do to finally kill colonialism and bury it for good? How should locals be empowered to fight off foreign powers so that their lands remain secure for themselves?
    This is a really, really bad idea. How do you think we would react if China started covertly aiding aTexan separatist movement? Messing around in the internal affairs of another nuclear power is a very good way to turn a cold war hot.

    It's incredibly likely that China is funding various political campaigns, and nobody seems to really give a shit about that

  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    @TheNomadicCircle I've seen you post arguments that you largely resent the U.S. for interfering in Middle Eastern affairs and practicing colonialism overseas, why then are you advocating that the U.S. continue to meddle in the affairs of other nations?

    Witch_Hunter_84 on
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. Registered User regular
    @TheNomadicCircle I've seen you post arguments that you largely resent the U.S. for interfering in Middle Eastern affairs and practicing colonialism overseas, why then are you advocating that the U.S. continue to meddle in the affairs of other nations?

    As near as I can figure it, we're the Zerg to Russia's United Earth Directorate.

    They don't like us, but they don't like the Russians even more.

    sig.jpg
  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    So are you advocating that we support them (still not sure who "we" is) like the way the U.S. funneled support into Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion?

  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    Trying to get people to adopt unpopular languages for purely patriotic reasons seems pretty messed up.

  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    Nomadic Circle,

    Aren't you the guy who is really into your home country's caste system? Like, I remember you from the discussion of tipping about how your clan is on top, everyone under you owes you some sort of fealty and such.

    So, are you advocating the West support a democratic movement to free people under tyranny or are you just hoping for Western support to put your clan back on top? Cause if that's so, I don't think you are going to get many takers.

  • Witch_Hunter_84Witch_Hunter_84 Registered User regular
    I think everyone's on the same page here in terms of being against Imperial dominance, subverting smaller cultures under a parent nation's influence and replacing it with its own.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    While I don't support china's drive to homogenize everything in it's sphere of influence, the idea that engaging in any sort of "covert ops" would achieve anything other then angering china's internal security forces is naive a best. Really, all you need to do is review any popular uprising in the last 50 years of chinese rule to realize that these people are utterly pitiless in their need for obedience.

  • enc0reenc0re Registered User regular
    Enough with the foreign adventures. I see absolutely no reason to involve ourselves in those affairs. We didn't even get involved in Darfur and that was so much worse.

  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    Yeah, we really should just keep our issues out in the open and in the diplomatic arena. China's already pulling a lot of economic bullshit, so I don't see why we can't mix some Uighur demands into the announced reasoning for punitive economic action.

  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    I refer to "We" I refer to the . . . the small Turkic and Mongolian descended people.

    In the thread about anti-colonialism, this is the winner.


    Jeff, Will, somebody lock 'er down.

  • GospreyGosprey Registered User
    I think it is hard to make a case for preventing colonialism when the named areas have not really been renowned for having their shit together. Lets say you knock Russia out of areas of central asia they currently control for, say, five years. Is five years going to be enough for those central asian nations to be able to defend themselves from Russia? Is ten? Twenty?

    Attaching to the infrastructure of a larger nation is probably the #1 way for them to `keep up' with the rest of the world.

    Lets look at Tajikistan, which geographically is in the centre of most future shitfights for power that political theorists come up with. Its all pointy, pointy mountains and poor people and not much else. I just can't see them getting together the resources/support to stay independent when push comes to shove, even with `secret' support. Hard to see what could possibly be done.

  • dojangodojango Registered User
    I'm not sure that countries can or should be solely confined to one particular ethnicity, saying "the Uighurs should be independent solely because they're Uighurs" and then appealing to ethnic solidarity or whatever in support of independence seems like it could trigger an unpleasant complication. E.G., former yugoslavia.

  • AtomikaAtomika genius of the restoration Registered User regular
    dojango wrote:
    I'm not sure that countries can or should be solely confined to one particular ethnicity, saying "the Uighurs should be independent solely because they're Uighurs" and then appealing to ethnic solidarity or whatever in support of independence seems like it could trigger an unpleasant complication. E.G., former yugoslavia.

    That's pretty much the history of every war in that region, ever, and kinda why they're 17 different flavors of fucked up today.

  • GospreyGosprey Registered User
    Gosprey wrote:
    Lets say you knock Russia out of areas of central asia they currently control for, say, five years. Is five years going to be enough for those central asian nations to be able to defend themselves from Russia? Is ten? Twenty?

    There are large amounts resources that are untapped and could be used for nation building and armed forces development. The UN should also be made to force Russia to pay restitution for the ecological damages done to Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Kazakhstan during its bread basket drive in the 1960's and its continual abuse of the Caspian and Aral seas. Both of these methods would provide enough resources to build a better economy.
    OK, first up the United Nations can't force Russia to do anything at the end of the day. On these sorts of issues, they're essentially a puppet organisation whose primary use is to bully nations that aren't already in the pocket of a colonial nation with a permanent Security Council seat/veto.

    Ripping out the natural resources is OK, but in essence that really just means they're trading Russia for China (who would be the logical non-Russian trading partner, given proximity). Additionally the technology and infrastructure to exploit those resources is primarily going to be imported, which greatly reduces the actual benefit to Tajikistan itself. Might get a few more good roads built though.
    These nations already have an army, especially the Tajik army which has been more exposed to mountainous warfare.
    Yeah but if we're talking about them going up against Russia or China, quantity is going against them - not to mention resourcing.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Wow tripple post.

    Gaddez on
  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    I refer to "We" I refer to the . . . the small Turkic and Mongolian descended people.

    Please do notify me how either of those two are colonial powers instead of babbling on how to lock a topic.


    The Mongols ruled the largest empire in recorded history, and the Ottomen empire ruled a sizable chunk of the ancient world for about 600 years. To cite them as being Subject to colonialism is at the very least ironic.

    Further, you seem to be making a considerable stink about how the UN should be moving to protect these people (because it has a long and storied history of intimidating china and russia?) while ignoring that it and the rest of the world did fundamentally dick to help Darfur, which was subject to far worse actions by the Sudanese government.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    Ignore this one too.

  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    read the one below

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    dojango wrote:
    I'm not sure that countries can or should be solely confined to one particular ethnicity, saying "the Uighurs should be independent solely because they're Uighurs" and then appealing to ethnic solidarity or whatever in support of independence seems like it could trigger an unpleasant complication. E.G., former yugoslavia.

    That's pretty much the history of every war in that region, ever, and kinda why they're 17 different flavors of fucked up today.

    This is completely false.

    Really? You don't think territorial tribalism has had something to do with the political problems of central Asia?

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited September 2011
    See, the period between the 30s and 60s was marked by Western governments drawing lines in the sand all over Asia and Africa and only some of these places degenerated into an civil war or strongman authoritarianism.

    What's unique about Soviet lines in the sand? What do you think the Great Game was all about? Do you think that the modern borders of, say, India have any intrinsic validity?

    ronya on
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