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Wonder Woman

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Posts

  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    On a different note, I'd previously decided to trade wait JLA. In this week's issue Wonder Woman was introduced; so to people who read it, any thoughts?


    Quick recap:
    Spoiler:

    TexiKen on
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  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    Also holy crap wasted pages in the back material of JLA. That much for just one page of text from the book? eeeeek.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I liked JLA because big screen action wooo!

    On the other hand

    Wonder Woman is someone who I simply do not care about, and rather dull super-aggressive warrior Wonder Woman even less so so half the issue was rather boring for me in that way. Also I have really gone off Jim Lee as a writer. draw less lines everywhere for Gods sake.

    So yeah, didn't enjoy this issue as much as the other ones, art is putting me off, but I'll stick with it because it's Aquaman next and wooo Aquaman!

  • TairuTairu Registered User regular
    Does the Captain Marvel back-up start next month?

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Woman Woman was pretty good this week

  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    Tairu wrote:
    Does the Captain Marvel back-up start next month?

    Likely not, seeing as they still have...four sketch profiles to get through.

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  • HadjiQuestHadjiQuest Registered User regular
    I think it was either issue 5 or issue 7 for the backup. Can't even remember.

  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
  • TairuTairu Registered User regular
    Well, I am excited for that. Even if I don't think Gary Frank is a good fit for Captain Marvel.

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  • LordSolarMachariusLordSolarMacharius Registered User regular
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    It’s about to get hot as Brian Azzarello and artist Cliff Chiang take us to the depths of Hell in WONDER WOMAN issue #7 this March.

    Remember the myth of Orpheus? Wonder Woman does. And we hope she’s learned its lessons well as someone she loves is in Hell’s clutches and she’s about to head out on a rescue mission. But Hades has no mercy—even for family members–and doesn’t intend to let her out of his domain without paying a price.
    Spoiler:

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  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    DON'T EAT THE SEEDS
    DON'T EAT THE SEEDS

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  • farbekriegfarbekrieg Registered User regular
    so paying the price means some time working in hades forge?

    will she have to bus a few tables too?

    i cant quite explain how awkward that pose is either, from the narrow stance, to the eyes closed to the slight upward angle, the background isnt helping it either... why is she wearing gloves but no smock?, or at least tying the hair back?

    and wouldnt it be too soon for
    Spoiler:
    WW only just left the island

  • LordSolarMachariusLordSolarMacharius Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Issue 4 is out today.

    My thoughts:
    -I really like Ares' look. Old man up to his knees in blood. (Actually, looks a lot like Brian Azzarello, which is a funny touch.) Also nice to see Apollo return to the story - this is the stuff I'm really, really enjoying and I can't wait until it comes to a head.
    -Seeing Diana out in the world is great, even if I don't share her taste in music or dress. Not a fan of how she is needlessly violent, though. Did you really need to stab Strife in the hand with a champagne flute over a musing?
    -The scene with Hera and Hippolyta/the Amazons went perfectly. Just... I was dreading another in the long line of "Themyscira is destroyed, all the Amazons are dead" events that happens to the title every couple of years. But the way Azzarello has pulled it off is just great.

    After two lesser issues, this one has returned to the promise of the fantastic initial one. It really feels like the book is going to start picking up now, and Diana is finally becoming the driving force - the star.

    Very excited about this title again.

    LordSolarMacharius on
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  • MatevMatev I HAVE NEVER BEEN MORE ALIVE AS I WAS SAYINGRegistered User regular
    This issue was definitely solid. I'm digging their depictions of the Greek gods and their general relationships with each other.

    I will agree it seems like Wonder Woman's finally stepping back into the leading role, they just need to make sure she still says compelling as a character while telling the boatloads of awesome story around her.

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Spoiler:
  • KeithKeith Registered User regular
    I loved #4. The pacing and tone were great

    and damn Cliff Chiang kills it on the art

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited January 2012
    Cade wrote:
    She wasn't the preachy WW that has been the norm and quite frankly not working for so long.

    Never got that criticism for Wonder Woman. She's no more preachy than Superman.
    Having checked out some Wonder Woman forums or places those people posted I got to say, they are almost as bad as Supernatural fans.
    Wonder Woman fans are extra sensitive for a reason. DC hasn't exactly been treating the character or title with the respect they deserve for a very long time. Even when the title had great teams on it they couldn't stop other other titles from doing the opposite when characters guest-star.

    When the time comes that Wonder Woman is treated with the respect that Batman and Superman are in the DCU then the fans will settle down.

    Harry Dresden on
  • spookytuneespookytunee Registered User
    UGGGAD i love Wonder Woman, Swamp Thing, SWEET TOOTH!!!!!!!!!!!!! My bf just bought the entire SWEET TOOTH off some guy in Puerto Rico. AWESOME! WEIRD! AWESOME!

  • LuxLux Registered User regular
    I really like how many pieces are being set up in Wonder Woman. Eventually, she's going to have to face Hera, and that's going to be exciting. But then after that, Apollo's obviously up to no good -- and then after this issue, there's War. And even after that, who knows what the hell is up with Zeus? There are so many big encounters in store and I hope Azzarello stays on the book long enough to write them all.

  • TexiKenTexiKen Was it Kierkegaard or Dick Van Patten who said, Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    Wonder Woman #6 was a good issue, a nice fight scene where Diana is violent but it's off panel, though it felt like a few places Azzarello was being too vague and like issues prior it still has a feel that you're always a page or two behind in understanding exactly what was happening. Upon rereading it it flows better, it just feels limited by being 20 pages. There's a teleport scene near the end that took me a few moments to get exactly how and what the purpose was.

    I do like Lennox, he's working out as a better character Azzarello has created compared to Orr or that Priest Monster thing.

    TexiKen on
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  • LordSolarMachariusLordSolarMacharius Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    There's a lot of good in this series.

    But Diana still isn't actually taking charge of her own book. Here she's just helping execute Lennox's plan; it's his idea, he's the hero. Diana is the supporting character.

    It's like Azzarello had all these ideas for a really cool modern greek gods book, and decided to use the Wonder Woman title to tell it. But it's not a Wonder Woman story.

    Edit: Actually, I think I like this review:
    Art and script just don't gel .Things happen but the progression from incident to consequence isn't there. Writer Brian Azzarello seems more interested in the gods throwing daft puns at one another (Poseidon to waxy-headed Hades: 'Oh lighten up!') than in making clear what's going on... Instead we're given nudge nudge wink wink exchanges about sex, and excruciating lines such as 'Jus' Lennox, Lord Hades. Leave the mistah for me sistah.' Letterer Jared K Fletcher was likely in pain while having to spell out that one...

    But overall, this is one unsatisfying comic. After six issues I'm no closer to knowing who this latest version of Wonder Woman is. She wins the day, but only with a plan Lennox came up with, and the rest of the 'week' looks to be more of the same. Gods and monsters and clever-clever cryptic dialogue and mysterious plots and bargains ... I enjoyed the first couple of issues but the increasing starring role of the gods, and parade of half-explained events, has me frustrated. Editor Matt Idelson really needs to sit down with his creators and explain that we readers don't actually know the story that's in their heads. Spell it out. And remember who the star of the book is meant to be.

    LordSolarMacharius on
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  • HarrierHarrier Registered User regular
    As a classicist and a writer, the interplay of gods and heroes has become my bread and butter, so this comic is practically made for me. I'm fascinated by the relationships Azzarello has begun to weave together between the Olympians, especially as he's started to bring out the big dogs of the pantheon.

    I also don't mind so much that Wonder Woman's own development takes a back seat. She is still an investigator this point, rather than a subject. We're treated to her personality in the way she clashes with others- particularly in this issue when she goes through with her plot. It's not even a plot, really- just a trick, and it's a petty, spiteful one. Poseidon is right. She fits in with her new family better than she wants to admit.

    Chiang is back on art for the next issue, right? I'm really looking forward to that.

    I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
  • AriviaArivia Registered User
    Yep. And the issue after that is the love guns. :D

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  • Burden of ProofBurden of Proof You three boys picked a beautiful hill to die on. Registered User regular
    I didn't understand the scene with Hera at all.

  • Werewolf2000adWerewolf2000ad Suckers, I know exactly what went wrong. Registered User regular
    edited February 2012
    I didn't understand the scene with Hera at all.

    They tempt Hera away from Mt. Olympus, Diana teleports there with Hermes staff to destroy Heras scrying pool with Hades candle, the distracted Hera can't get back fast enough to stop her. Agreed it could have been a lot clearer.

    Werewolf2000ad on
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  • DelduwathDelduwath Registered User regular
    Thank you for explaining that. I read the issue last night, and I only had a vague idea of what happened. I got that Diana destroyed the scrying pool, but it wasn't really clear to me how they got there.

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  • HarrierHarrier Registered User regular
    The newest issue continues what has been Azzarello's rather vicious dismantling of the Amazons. It's very striking, and I know there are people here who won't like it. The story he's building with it, though, is quite striking. I like the way Diana reacts to what she learns, and the counter-reaction.

    I don't wanna kill anybody. I don't like bullies. I don't care where they're from.
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    I really liked it

    so

    yeah

  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    I love it

    Amazons should be vicious and brutal

    they're fucking Amazons

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    edit: Oh, nevermind.

    Don't feel like having this argument.

    Munch on
  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    :|

    There is a pretty big difference between the warrior women that are fairly brutal and savage in every form of media they appear in ever being actual warriors in line with what the myths and legends portray as opposed to bland super science utopia that is somehow also greek

    and Hercules raping people

    Blankzilla on
  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    I've just seen a lot of people using, "Hey, in the Greek myths --" as justification.

    And it's not.

    There's all kinds of weird, fucked up shit in Greek mythology, that I don't really want in my comics.

    Amazons, like everything else in Greek myth, were created by the Greeks as a reaction to things they couldn't explain and/or were fearful of. Storms? Zeus. Sun? Apollo. Hades? Death. Women who were so brazen as to live without men? Horrible she-beasts that mutilate themselves, and murder men.

    Marston's Amazons were created as a subversion of the myth. A way to say that no, the Greeks were full of shit, and the Amazons were actually a peace-loving utopian society. Their only flaw was their seclusion, and the fear that had fostered in them since they withdrew from the world.

    Between the revelation that Wonder Woman was actually sired by, and gained her powers from, a man, and now this, it seems like Azzarello's really undermining the feminist principles that Wonder Woman was created to represent.

  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Well if undermining those principles creates a much more interesting story, which it has for me and a bunch of others judging from how well the series has been recieved, I do not see the problem.

    Wonder Woman has never been a massively successful character, earning her spot on the Trinity due to brand recognition and pop culture awareness as opposed to strength of presence in the comics themselves.

    I mean the last great Wonder Woman run was Greg Rucka's which ended, what, 6-7 years ago? And how long was the dry spell before that?

    If the character's history and supporting cast hasn't worked that well for decades why is it blasphemy to try some new things? Especially since the(supposed) whole point of the reboot was new takes on the characters.

    Blankzilla on
  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    and honestly, I fucking hate the pre-reboot Amazons

    not because of any anti-feminist sentiments or anything

    they are just disgustingly boring

    they are a perfect utopian society that is both ancient and hyper advanced

    they run around in togas and have healing lasers and uggh

    I am fine with a blend of sci-fi and fantasy, like Marvel's Norse Pantheon but holy shit the Amazons are just so lifeless and boring

    giving them flaws and a more "grounded" setting has worked wonders for me at least

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    "it happened in the myths" is not a justification, no

    though Azzerello seems to be trying to do a thing with Wonder Woman where he takes the characters from the myths and modernising them

    You'll note that the gods and goddesses are exactly the amoral figures in the new Wonder Woman series that they are in the myths

    But yeah, creative license is a thing

    Personally, I prefer the Amazons to be questionable in many ways

    Not them specifically, I am never a fan of lionising entire societies in media because it a) feels fake and b) feels creepy as well

    Which is why I was happy when the Kryptonians in New Krypton were just as reactionary and ruthless as humans could be. Same with how the Asgardians have never been the nicest of people, just look at Odin.

    I understand the feminist arguments as to why the new Amazons are bad. Taking the only all-female Utopia in media, really, and making them man-killing savages, yeah I can see why people would be upset about that

    But a perfect society with only one gender is creepy as shit as well, for me anyway

    The Greek myths were misogynist as shit, yeah. No arguments there at all

    But Marston's philosophies, if you read his comics, are fucking weird as well. He made the Amazons as they are because he literally believed that beautiful, powerful women should be worshipped by men. Oh yeah and that slavery was okay! Not only if you wanted it, but if you didn't want it but were unable to live any other way

    so let's not pretend that his subversion wasn't in of itself pretty damn problematic

    making the Amazons imperfect serves to highlight how Diana truly is the best of them, and allows her to be more of a hero than simply the most wonderful Amazon out of an island made up of wonderful Amazons

    also it provides Diana with a degree of conflict that I think is cool. She is an Amazon but has problems with them. She's has divine blood but has problems with the Gods whose family she is part of as well

    Solar on
  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    Solar, that is a good post you made there.

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  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    Blankzilla wrote: »
    Well if undermining those principles creates a much more interesting story, which it has for me and a bunch of others judging from how well the series has been recieved, I do not see the problem.

    Wonder Woman has never been a massively successful character, earning her spot on the Trinity due to brand recognition and pop culture awareness as opposed to strength of presence in the comics themselves.

    I mean the last great Wonder Woman run was Greg Rucka's which ended, what, 6-7 years ago? And how long was the dry spell before that?

    If the character's history and supporting cast hasn't worked that well for decades why is it blasphemy to try some new things? Especially since the(supposed) whole point of the reboot was new takes on the characters.

    Other things that were well-received:

    Identity Crisis
    Batman: Hush
    Infinite Crisis
    Blackest Night

    I could keep going, but you get the idea.

    And sure, let's say Rucka's Wonder Woman was the last good Wonder Woman. I disagree, but let's say that.

    When was the last truly good Superman? You'd probably have to go back to All-Star, or One Year Later. When was the last good Catwoman story? Pfeiffer had his moments, but let's say Brubaker and Cooke. Green Lantern? Sinestro War, probably.

    A period of temporary stagnation is no reason to gut a character's mythos. The fact that Rucka showed how the character could and should work, at least shows that the classic take has legs.

    And, I'm not against new takes on characters. I certainly don't consider it blasphemy. But, I think it's easy to lose the soul of those characters, when you're fucking about with them. Look at Tony Bedard's Blue Beetle. All the pieces are there, but they're just askew enough to render the character an unlikeable bore.

    Azzarello wants to give the Greek Gods a facelift? Cool, I dig it a lot more than Gail Simone's weird Gods-in-space-jumpsuits thing that she did. But, I think taking a feminist icon and revealing that yeah, her powers came from mythology's greatest hedonistic chauvinist, and that her matriarchal society, the only one in the entire DCU, use sex as a weapon, murder men, and commit infanticide against their sons, is a bit much.

    It might as well be, Why Girls Are Gross and Mean, by Brian Azzarello, age 9.

  • BlankzillaBlankzilla The Year 198X Being Xtreme to the MaxxRegistered User regular
    Or it could just be Azzarello wanting to tell a Wonder Woman story that is more heavily entrenched in her mythological roots in order to vibe with the newly revived magical bent of the DCU?

    Sometimes a story is just a story! I really doubt he went into Wonder Woman with a FUCK GIRLS THEY SMELL mentality.

  • MunchMunch Registered User regular
    And sometimes subtext is a thing?

    I don't think Scott Lobdell meant to make Starfire into a soulless blow-up doll, but he sure did.

  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    I can see what you are saying Munch

    but like I said, I feel that the pre-reboot Amazons are massively problematic in of themselves

    when in Secret Six Banshee tells Wonder Woman and Artemis and so on how much she hates them

    Yeah, they had their little perfect feminist Utopia for years, that's great. But where were you when thousands if not millions of women over the centuries were raped, murdered and degraded?

    Banshee was a proud, free woman who was unafraid of herself, her sexuality, or the opinions of others. She was a strong feminist. But she hated the Amazons because they could have made a difference, they could have helped people, that force of immortal super-deadly warriors, but they ran away and hid on their island. So however much they pretend to be all wonderful and benelovent and so on, they really aren't. They are a segregated society that has hidden themselves and all the amazing technology etc that they have from everyone else because they don't like outsiders much.

    and that, for me, was damning. The Amazons had been destroyed in my eyes, even if they had seemed somewhat weird and problematic before that, now their society seemed no better than anyone else's, maybe worse in some ways. Yet the illusions of Utopia in the comics persisted, as if the varied problems of the Amazons (and I don't mean logistical problems or whatever, because this is a superhero universe, I mean moral problems), didn't even exist. An exercise in hypocrisy which I felt far more anti-feminist than any actually humanised society could be.

    But now, there is no hypocrisy. The Amazons have traits that can be lauded but also do horrific things to maintain their existence, and do so without remorse. What does that make them? People. The Amazons as wonderful goddesses whose glossy existence covers a lot of hypocrisy and fear and views which I strongly disagree with, that was a problem for me.

    Are the new Amazons better, in a feminist sense? Debateable. But in the whole debate about this, it seems to be considered that Azzerello took something wonderful and ruined it. For me, he just shifted the Amazons so that they were an as obviously immoral society as they had been secretly before. And in doing so, removed the lionisation of a society that claims if you segregate, and lets be honest, forcibly segregate, because Amazons who wanted to leave never did by royal decree (oh yeah, that perfect society? also an inheritance based monarchy) the genders, you can create a perfect utopia. And that I did not like that one bit.

    Solar on
  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    Basically what I am saying is that I understand and accept your argument and think it is an understandable conclusion to make

    however I challenge your assertion that the Amazons were good and are now bad

    if anything, they were bad and now they are bad

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