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[Chaos] Chaos in the Old World - Discussion and signups - the Horned Rat

DarianDarian Registered User regular
edited March 2012 in Critical Failures
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Chaos in the Old World is a boardgame set in the Warhammer Fantasy universe. Players take on the role of one of the gods of Chaos, seeking to corrupt the land and remake it in their own image. It plays best with exactly four players and offers is an interesting twist on area control games - each god has slightly different forces, their own thematic deck of Chaos cards to cast, and a victory track (dial) that marks progress befitting that god's priorities. The game can be won either by VP accumulation or by completing your dial.

Khorne - the Blood god - murder, maim, kill. Tends to win by dial victory, and earns advances by killing enemy figures. Straightforward to play, but must keep a close watch on everything that is happening to extend the game long enough to achieve victory (he needs nine dial ticks, so he has to double tick multiple times and prevent others from winning by VP before he gets there).
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Nurgle - the Lord of Pestilence - spreading filth and disease among the cities and towns. Longest dial track, making a dial victory difficult, if not impossible. But Nurgle can benefit from others' ruinations and can shoot up the VP track in the mid-to-late game. Never out of contention.
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Tzeentch - the Changer of Ways - making plans and reshaping reality to suit himself. Tzeentch is the most reliant of all the gods on his Chaos cards; his are cheaper and he gets to draw more of them than anyone else. Depending on the Old World deck, he can go for either a dial or VP victory, but he has to find Warpstones and cast magic spells in order to prepare regions for ideal corruption.
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Slaanesh - the Prince of Pleasure (and pain) - seducing the nobility and heroes of the land, swaying them to his side. With the shortest dial track, Slaanesh can win without ever double-ticking, and by focusing on regions with nobles can build up VP quickly.
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The Horned Rat - The Undying Schemer - rising from under the ground with his skittering horde. Rather than seeking to corrupt the Old World, the Horned Rat instead strains to overrun it, with more figures than any other god and abilities that enhance their mobility.
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Here's a quick summary of the gods' followers and their abilities:
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Previous games, aka recommended reading before playing, are linked from the CF Boardgame Index

As has been requested, this thread can be used as a general sign-up list for future CitOW games (starting with my game 17). I'll keep lists in the second post of sign-ups. When you do sign up, please mention whether you have played in any of the previous games (vet) or not (noob). I think I can remember the hosts for myself.

Let's also use this thread for general discussion on Chaos in the Old World - rules questions, balance, complaining about the greenskins and electors that keep Khorne from winning, etc.

A new expansion brings with it new rules questions. As an aid to players and hosts, I offer you the following.

Darian's personal Unofficial FAQ for the Horned Rat (Now with some official rulings):
  1. Set up - how many Old World Cards should be used for a 3 player game including the Horned Rat? 4p? 5p?
    [FAQ - 7 cards for 4 or 5 players, 8 for 3, regardless of the Horned Rat's presence.]
  2. Dial advancement counters for Tzeentch, and Slaanesh -- are these once per region per phase, or can Tzeentch and Slaanesh spread out their corruption placement across phases? Can Tzeentch or Slaanesh earn more than one DAC from a single region during a round (e.g. from Havoc in battle then from corruption placement)?
    [FAQ states that Tzeentch can earn a DAC during the summoning phase.
    My ruling: One DAC may be earned in a region per phase per player. I'm going to interpret this as meaning that the condition must be met entirely within a phase. This was partially clarified by the FAQ but still leaves a bit of interpretation needed.]
  3. Horned Rat's dial -- for Summon X, does the summoned figure need to be adjacent to your current figures?
    [My ruling - Yes, it must be adjacent since it does not say "in any region".]
  4. Rampage -- Essentially, does this act like the battle phase in all ways, or is it simply a battle?
    [FAQ - This is just a battle, not acting like the battle phase. Things that specify "battle phase" do not trigger from a [COLOR="Red"]Rampage[/COLOR] battle, but things like Vengeance (which only mentions battle dice) do.
    Reference summary:
    Trigger: Vengeance, Bloodbath, Skulltaker, Bloodletters, Great Unclean One, Pleasure Shield, Strength in Numbers, Vermin Outbreak
    Do not trigger: Choking Stench, Plaguebearers, Warpstorm, Havoc, Transmorgrify, Acolytes, Shroud of Secrets, Greenskins Invade, Electors Sue for Peace]
  5. Skulltaker followed by Rampage - can the killed units be summoned away from the region?
    [FAQ - No; the figures cannot be removed before the card is discarded in the end phase.]
  6. Terror - can you choose to move only some cultists, leaving behind the cultists from another god?
    [My ruling - Yes, you make the choice to move or not separately for each god. And all the ones you move must go to the same region.]
  7. Bloodletter upgrade - Is it limited to once per region, or does every figure killed grant VP?
    [FAQ - Each figure killed is worth 2 VP.]
  8. Bloodthirster upgrade - Does this summoning get around the adjacency requirement? Do Warpstones count as corruption when determining whether a region is a valid target?
    [FAQ - No. It changes the cost if the destination region matches the requirement, but it is missing the "any region" key phrase that usually indicates teleportation effects.
    My ruling - No. Warpstones are considered as corruption only when checking for Ruination, not at other times.]
  9. Does corruption placed by Filth or Blue Scribes grant a DAC? (For Filth, of course, it would take 2 of them in the same region)
    [FAQ - Yes; move, place, same thing. As an errata, they changed Filth to be two separate events-remove, then place.]
  10. Do Quicken Decay and Festival of Sinew trigger on figures that are moved by other effects? What if their own figures are moved out by an opponent (e.g., by Terror)?
    [FAQ - Bolt of Change using a new key word "replace" which does not trigger Quicken or Festival.
    My ruling - Yes; move, summon, place, same thing. And it looks for the source of the movement, not the owner of the figure.]
  11. Can Convocation pull figures from more than one region?
    [FAQ - They must come from the same region.]
  12. How many corruption tokens will each warrior or greater daemon place if two Havoc cards are in the same region?
    [My ruling - Havoc is a replacement effect--instead of rolling battle dice, the warriors place one corruption. I can see this one argued either way:
    A. when the second Havoc resolves, they are no longer rolling battle dice, so it has no effect.
    B. Havoc stops them from rolling battle dice then has them place a corruption; they would place one corruption for each Havoc card in the region.
    I will go with interpretation A, so they will only place one corruption each.]
  13. Warp Portal with an upgraded Horror -- is the newly placed Horror a valid target for the Portal's teleportation?
    [FAQ - No, the new horror is not placed until the card has been resolved.]
  14. Acolytes upgrade -- after you cancel a hit, can the opponent still kill your acolyte by applying their next hit to it? Can another opponent kill the acolyte with their hits?
    [FAQ - This upgrade triggers after all powers assign their hits for the region, but before killed figures are removed.]
  15. Lord of Change upgrade -- if it is moved by Warp Portal, can it place a Warpstone? What if it is moved by Lambs to the Slaughter?
    [FAQ - Only triggers if Tzeentch does the summoning. Warp Portal, yes, Lambs to the Slaughter, no.]
  16. Shroud of Secrets -- if a player does not have enough hits left to kill an opponent's figure, can they apply the remaining hits to Slaanesh's? (e.g., if a Rat Ogre is present with some Seductresses and no Peasants, and Khorne only rolls one hit, can he target the Seductress or must he waste the hit?)
    [My ruling - No; the Slaanesh figures are not legal targets while anything else is alive.]
  17. Daemonette upgrade -- if the Daemonette dies or is summoned away from the region, does the cultist remain under Slaanesh's control?
    [My ruling - Since they didn't specify, as they did for the KoS in the base set, I'm going to guess they intended the control to persist, regardless, so I'll rule yes. This also implies that Slaanesh can summon the cultist away without losing control, just as with Soporific Musk in the base game.]
  18. Can Slaanesh take advantage of the Leper upgrade if his Daemonette upgrade gives him control of one?
    [My ruling - Yes. You in the Leper upgrade refers to the controller of the Leper, not just to Nurgle.]
  19. What happens when Slaanesh takes control of a follower of the Horned Rat?
    [My ruling - A Slaanesh-controlled rat places no corruption, counts as participation for ruination, and counts as its PP cost in corruption when scoring 1st and 2nd ruination.]
  20. Grey Seer with the Clan Rat upgrade - How many rats are summoned?
    [FAQ - The upgrade gives one additional rat when you summon to a region with no rats present, so the Grey Seer will summon 3 rats instead of 2.]
  21. Strength in Numbers and Verminous Horde -- what is the trigger condition for these? Are they the same, or is there a difference between them?
    [FAQ - The same; the Horned Rat must have more figures than at least one opponent who is present in the region.
    My ruling - Following this to its logical conclusion, the cards will give no effect if only the horned rat is in the region. That seems odd to me, so as a house rule it will also trigger if only the rat has figures present.]
  22. The Under Empire -- are the figures moved before or after the ruination bonus VP are awarded for being present in the region? (Essentially, if HR moves all his figures out, does he still get the ruination bonus? I know he won't be eligible for 1st/2nd place if he uses this.)
    Also, are regions with a Skaven token considered adjacent to all other regions, or just to other regions containing Skaven tokens?
    [FAQ - Timing of this happens after the contributing bonus for presence, so that the same rat can take part in more than one ruination.
    My ruling - Regions containing Skaven are adjacent to each other, not to all regions.]
  23. The Light of Day/High Elf Protection -- can players choose a ruined region, to avoid placing the token? If so, can more than one player choose the same ruined region? Essentially, I'm wondering whether you meant "In order of Threat level (highest first), each player places one Event token in a different region."
    [FAQ - Ruined regions cannot be chosen for Old World card effects. Only if there is not valid region can the placement be avoided.]
  24. How do effects which grant additional dice or corruption interact with effects which limit or reduce? For example, if Choking Stench and another Nurgle card would reduce a bloodletter's dice to zero, will Vengeance still grant Khorne a battle die? If there is a single upgraded Leper in a region with Call to Arms! in play, does it place it's bonus corruption?
    [FAQ - Old World effects are persistent and apply first; then, disabling effects are applied before enabling effects.
    My ruling - "Additional" effects apply only if you would still have regular dice/corruption after all reductions. You can never have only the additional ones; in the examples above, Khorne would not roll any dice and Nurgle would not place any corruption.]
  25. Does Vermin Outbreak apply a cost to free summons from upgraded figures? Does it change the cost of figures summoned or moved by spells?
    [My ruling - Free summons are affected; a cost of 0 is still a cost. Upgraded horrors would cost 1 PP in addition to the cost of the spell; the Bloodthirster could be summoned once at a cost of 1 PP.
    Chaos card effects are noted as being immune to Vermin Outbreak, so summons from Convocation or Grey Seer would not be affected.]

Darian on
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Posts

  • DarianDarian Registered User regular
    edited June 2012
    For those new to our forums (this used to be stickied in all sub-forums and remains in effect; quote is copied from Debate and Discourse):
    The Glorious Edict
    All insults other than 'silly goose' are punishable by punishment most severe. Admins and mods are exempted, so we may be allowed to practice the modly art of self-restraint.

    There is a moderate exception for in-character text in role-playing threads, but that doesn't apply to our CitOW games or any discussion threads. Keep it civil, please.

    Sign up in this thread if you are interested in playing in a game with us.

    All players: (after getting into a game, you can sign up again at the bottom of the list; HR or B means the player only wants to play in expansion or base games, respectively)
    • Cerberus - inactive until game 76 is over
    • Daemonis
    • Darian - inactive until a game or two end
    • doldari
    • MrBody - Morrslieb only
    • texasheat
    • visiblehowl
    • SeGaTai
    • flimflammery
    • Ardor
    • caliber
    • BoardGamer
    • susan
    • Gorden858
    • mi-go hunter
    • BlackRaider
    • BrendenPA
    • LoserForHireX
    • jakobagger
    • pesky
    • SaberOverEasy

    Inactive players (can come back into the list at the top by re-posting their interest):
    • Ryadic
    • TheLawinator
    • Schade
    • Lucedes
    • Maximus
    • lodwilk
    • Tmoiy
    • Icerimp
    • Elldren
    • jdarksun
    • 38thDoe
    • Overhamsteren
    • Magic Geek
    • Tayrun
    • Belfast

    New players: (anyone who gets into a game is removed from this list)
    • BrendenPA
    • SaberOverEasy

    Special inactive list for new players:
    • Lucedes

    Hosts: (in reverse order of most recently played game)
    • visiblehowl
    • Overhamsteren
    • Lykouragh
    • admanb
    • Nought
    • SeGaTai
    • stever777
    • doldari
    • Darian
    • Ardor
    • blahmcblah
    • Gorden858
    • pesky

    Extra special inactive hosts list, aka "Thank you for your kind service, sir (or madam), and feel free to let us know if you want to play again":
    • Mordenthral
    • Rorus Raz
    • FunkyWaltDogg
    • Wylder - HR
    • DevoutlyApathetic

    For future games, hosts will be encouraged to take the top n players from the list(s) of their choice, thus ensuring over time that everyone who wants to play will get a chance. Players may feel free to request a particular god (or one of two) as they sign up; hosts can take that into consideration to ensure no one is stuck playing as a power they despise.

    For anyone interested, here is a spreadsheet of the results of our games.

    Leaderboard:
    • Darian - 5 wins (KNS)
    • Rius - 4 wins (NTS)
    • The Cow King - 4 wins (NS; Base game Champion)
    • blahmcblah - 4 wins (KSR)
    • El Skid - 3 wins (KNT)
    • susan - 3 wins (KNR)
    • Capfalcon - 3 wins (KTS)
    • Lykouragh - 3 wins (KN)
    • SeGaTai - 3 wins (KS)

    Darian on
  • FunkyWaltDoggFunkyWaltDogg Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    A minor announcement that I ought to have made some time ago:

    Darian and stever777 both now have permissions to promote board app accounts from the default level to "official" CF Citow GM status (the difference being that official GM accounts can use save game numbers from the 1-1000 range reserved to CF games). So if you want to host a game in CF and you post as such in this thread, there's now a reasonable chance that someone will spot your request and actually do something about it!

    While I'm at it, a few words of reminder:

    • If you want to use the board manager to host a PbP game on another forum or something of that nature, feel free to just register an account and go for it. Game numbers > 1000 are available for use by anyone, for any (non-malicious) purpose.
    • If any one of the myriad of eccentricities or bugs in the app is causing you particular grief, you can report it at the bug tracker. Unfortunately, you'll have to register a separate account for the tracker; I've been entirely unsuccessful at mustering the will or the energy to merge accounts with the app. Such is life.

    Next: instructions written by Darian, for applications designed by lazy documentation-averse developers!

    Handtracker (created by admanb)
    Handtracker is a web app developed by admanb to keep track of players' hands during a forum board game. Each player or team of players needs their own account on the service; at this time, the passwords are not stored securely, so you should definitely not reuse passwords from other sites.

    Once registered and logged in, you will see a list of the games you are hosting, then the games you are playing in, then the decks (Templates) you created, then a list of public decks.

    To create a new game, click the "new game" link, name the game, choose the first deck, and click "Create". This will take you to the main page for the game, with you in the player list as host. (The host is the administrator of the game; they are able to see all actions and to view the order of cards in the decks.)

    Next, use the "add deck" link to load any additional decks needed for the game; click the link, choose the deck, click add. At the moment, that will bring you to an Error screen; ignore it, click back, then repeat for the rest of the decks. When you are done, click back again to get back to the game.

    Then, you need to set up permissions; for CitOW, I give each player permission to "draw to hand" for their own deck. As host, I let myself "shuffle" for all decks and "draw" from the Old World deck.

    Finally, make sure you shuffle each deck before letting the players draw. From the main page for the game, click the "show/hide" link for each deck, then click to shuffle. While the game is in progress, I like to note the number of cards each player has in their hand and left in the deck each round, so I can tell if anything isn't happening the way it should.

    After the game ends, you can delete it from the main page (after login) so that it doesn't continue to show up on the home page for yourself and your players.


    On occasion, you may find yourself needing to replace a player in the midst of a game, grabbing the old player's hand. Here's how you do it:

    1. From the main page for the game, click the radio button next to the player who will be replaced
    2. Select the new player from the drop-down menu
    3. Click the "add or replace player" button

    That should bring a new player into the game with the original player's hand. I'm not sure whether all their permissions also inherit, but they should. I know I've done this in the past and had it work.

    (Unnamed) CitOW Board App (created by FunkyWaltDogg)
    On this note, one of the potential hosts asked if there were instructions for the board app. Here you go!

    New games can be created in one of two ways:
    1. The preferred method: http://appliednerditry.com/chaos/ lets you choose which powers and decks are in play, create a fresh game, and randomize the tokens. Unofficial games use any available number over 1000, while official games use smaller numbers but can only be created by accounts which have been promoted. The other fields can be ignored, or you can fill them with player names and a link to the game thread.
    2. From an existing board, type a number in the box then click "Save as new game"; this creates a new game with all the same decks/player choices as the original game (and the current board state, which would have to be cleared). This feature is most often used if someone new wants to take over a given game to update it while the original host is unavailable. (Normally, anyone can edit the game state and export the board, but only the host or an administrator can save any changes.)

    Once the game is made, you can drag-and-drop figures to the board from the boxes at the bottom. Cards and Old World tokens are accessed through the drop-down box to the right of the board by clicking on the appropriate category then dragged to the proper location. To the left of the board are a few mouse-over tabs which reveal control panels for:
    * toggling the state of Old World Cards (bright while in play/dim if discarded)
    * adjusting corruption and marking regions as ruined (for ruination, put a number in the box in the region)
    * adjusting the scoreboard area (peasant totals, PP, VP, Dial ticks, DACs, upgrades)
    -- peasants can be dragged into the box to place one from the board, but the only way to decrement the number of peasants a power has is through the control panel
    -- PP can be adjusted using the arrows visible above Estalia, without needing to open the control panel
    * adding or removing figure effects (drag a figure into the box, toggle the effects, then drag it to its destination)
    There are also some toggle switches with buttons on the board, used to reset everyone's PP to their starting value (including upgrades), reset DACs to 0, and to clear effects from all figures.

    The buttons below the board are used for game-state management.
    * The Game # box is a drop-down menu to select which game you want to work with, and the State # similarly chooses which save-state within that game is active. Changes to those menus are confirmed by clicking "go".
    * The next box is an entry field for a new game number, which is used by the Save as New Game... button.
    * The Save as button creates a new save state within the current game. It changes to read Save as Game #, State #+1 the first time that either it or Overwrite is used.
    * Export as PNG creates an image file of the current board, to save to your local computer
    * Overwrite or Overwrite Game #, State # updates the active saved state with the current board

    I generally create a new state for each round, then overwrite during the round, but some hosts create a new state each time they update the game in the thread.

    FunkyWaltDogg on
    Burnage wrote:
    FWD is very good at this game.
  • texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    Groovy, gotta change my bookmark...

  • jakobaggerjakobagger CopenhagenRegistered User regular
    Chaos in the New Thread

    bgg / steam / goodreads / Origin: Bygasto /Bnet: Bygasto#2537 /iOS Game Center: Bygasto
  • JebuJebu Registered User regular
    Sign me back up please.

  • stever777stever777 AFK most Saturdays Registered User regular
    CitOW Game 54 is beginning now.
    texasheat as Khorne
    3clipse as Nurgle
    jakobagger as Tzeentch
    BobCesca as Slaanesh
    FunkyWaltDogg as The Horned Rat

    Dracula in Daemonis' Fury of Dracula
    Hosting Android: Netrunner - Thread 2: The Revenge

    The Black Hole of Cygnus X-1
  • So after receiving my copy of CitoW and playing several games with friends, my group has an interesting problem.

    No one is willing to play Khorne any longer.

    We've played three games so far. The first game came down to a close contest between dial tick wins from Tzeench and Slaanesh, with the win narrowly taken by Tzeench. The next game Slaanesh was winning by a massive margin but went a bit crazy claiming VPs on the final turn and accidentally pushed Tzeench over 50 points, who then won on tiebreaker from dial ticks. The final game Nurgle stomped home from beginning to end with a massive point win.

    In all three games, Khorne has been outright denied dial ticks on multiple turns. One the very first game, Tzeench teleported Khorne's first cultist to the end of the board and he didn't tick for the next two turns. On the second game, Khorne did oookkaaayy but wasn't really in contention at the end. The third game ended similarly. Khorne has been played by different people each time since we all want to get a go at all the roles. But the general consensus is that Khorne has about as much chance of winning as a kitten in a burlap sack thats just been thrown off the bridge.

    Basically everyone is just being ultra careful about allowing any combats with Khorne. Everyone saves up their power wherever possible by playing low value cards, and Khorne is first to run out of power in most summon phases. Then everyone plays blocking cards on Khorne (teleport, fields of ecstasy, rain of pus) or just plain summons their guys out of zones where they are under attack. Khorne rarely gets to grips in combat in lots of zones and rarely manages to double tick. While rarely out of contention completely, our play style just really frustrates the Khorne player as they seem to have no way to respond.

    Anyway, having played the other three gods, it's my turn to play Khorne next. I'm looking for some tips that might allow me to take a win for Khorne (or at least do well enough) to prove that Khorne isn't just the redheaded stepchild of the chaos gods. The ultra-cautious playstyle that has built up from the other gods leads me to believe that I might have to play some non-standard tactics to come at them from a different angle and surprise them a bit, so I've actually been thinking of attempting a VP tactic (I know, I know, bear with me here...) in order to shock them out of their standard metagame and force them to plan for alternative options. Full details in the spoiler for those interested in the details of the plan.
    Basically, our gaming group plays pretty much every teleport, field of ecstasy and rain of pus to defeat Khorne. Knowing in advance that ALL of these cards will be played on me, I plan to attempt a tactic that my group won't expect and they hopefully won't really try to defeat (much). I'm going to go for points.

    First turn, I want to start by placing a bloodthirster directly into a 3 conquest, populous zone that has warpstone in it. If there are none, a noble would do. This means I can't be first-round teleported to the far side of the board. Spend remaining power by placing four cultists in the same zone. Since no one in their right mind would first-turn summon anything in the same space as a bloodthirster, this guarantees me that I WONT tick in the first turn, and that I will dominate that region and place four corruption.

    Second turn, assuming other gods all tick, I will be lowest threat. This gives me control over old world cards, and renders me somewhat immune to heroes. I spend power this turn placing warriors in surrounding regions so that hopefully this turn I tick. Considering the way that our group plays, theres a chance people will just flee before me or block my attacks leaving my warriors untouched. First region will get dominated again, and will now have 8 corruption. I'm actually really keen to keep control over old world cards all game by getting the lowest number of ticks, so that I can place nobles and warpstone in my zones and get some benefit from them, while simultaneously making it harder for Slaanesh/Tzeench to tick. Sure slaanesh can just take the nobles away, but It might slow them a little.

    Third turn I should now control ~3 zones (albeit with single warriors) and my original zone should get ruined. At this point people will probably realise I'm not playing for ticks (although that's not guaranteed, they are REALLY stuck in the mindset that Khorne does nothing but fight). But I should also approximately 25 VPS (9 from domination, 3 from participating in a ruin, 9 from ruining the region and four for Khornes first dial tick. From there, I simply converge with all available forces on, say, the empire, dominate the hell out of it for the three turns required to ruin it on turn 6 for the win?

    On the flipside, if they just really don't get it and spend the whole game fighting each other thinking Khorne's doing really badly with very few ticks and ignore the fact that I'm accruing points, it could actually hand me a win, turning our group's metagame on it's head.

    Obviously this can be stopped if people actively start targetting Khorne cultists, but I'm hoping that their mindset of "Never engage Khorne at all costs" will prevent this until it's too late. Even if it doesn't, and I lose, hopefully someone having to take an active role in engaging Khorne to stop the domination/ruination progress will shock them out of their mindset of never engaging Khorne. Similarly, if someone catches on really quickly and engages me early, maybe I can switch over and go for dial ticks, regardless of the fact that I won't have ticked in the first turn.

    Either way, I'm hoping it forces people to rethink their tactical options and shocks the metagame a bit so that Khorne is no longer the target of all spells that prevent or diminish combat effectiveness.

    Anyway, thats the plan.

    So one way or another, I want to shock our groups metagame out of their "Never engage Khorne at any cost" mindset and open the game up a bit to variable tactics.

    Would love to hear any feedback on the above spoiler'd tactics, or any other suggestions that might help with this.

  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    Slightly confused, but how are people always running away from Fields of Carnage, Blood Frenzy, The Blood God's Call & having their regions stalled from Battle Cry? It's entirely possible for Khorne to be screwed out of a tick on round 1 (it's pretty much a game for Tzeentch to teleport Khorne's first unit to Norsca), but for two straight rounds he didn't manage a single kill? I mean from the sounds of it (them avoiding combat with Khorne) people aren't killing Khorne's units because they aren't fighting them. But if they aren't dying, then how is Khorne not blanketing the board with a Warrior in each region? He's got 6 of them and there are only 9 regions and if he's picked up the cultist upgrade later on then (worst case scenario) you have a battle die in each region.

    Are any of the other gods playing any warriors at all? I also find it strange that not one single god is trying to get in their good graces with Khorne to get him to focus on their rival. The other gods do have warriors, but having Khorne fight your battles for you (ie- not screwing him over so that he thanks you and maybe helps you out) is infinitely preferable to having to spend the 2 PP for each warrior to get 1 battle dice (excluding Nurgle). Every other god can't have the perfect counter to Khorne at every conceivable opportunity and Khorne gets first dibs on card slots each Round if he instead wants to stall.

    Currently DMing: None right now! :(
    Characters
    [5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 31 | Melee +4/1d8+2 | Spell +4/DC 12
  • WylderneedshelpWylderneedshelp Registered User
    edited September 2011
    In that particular game where Khorne didn't tick at all for two ticks, it was actually a three player game. He got teleported to Norsca and had to create a chain of cultists to get out of there leaving him no engagements on turn 1. On turn 2 he managed to play one warrior each in a slaanesh controlled zone and a tzeench controlled zone, but once he was out of power a fields of ecstasy and teleport came out screwing him out of combat. It was a confluence of factors that made it happen, not saying it could happen a lot, but yeah, he started turn 3 at the start of the dial.

    Blood gods call gets played a fair bit and has often been the cause of Khorne double ticks, but there are only 3 in the deck. Blood frenzy gets played obviously and helps. Fields of carnage rarely gets played. Not really sure why since I haven't played Khorne yet myself. I'm assuming that people are prioritising summons over ensuring combats occur. I can remember at least once where a field of carnage was immediately followed by a fields of ecstasy.

    I'm not saying that Khorne never engages anyone. In the two four-player games, he was sort of in contention although perhaps not near the end. In the game that Nurgle won, the nurgle player lost troops to Khorne on multiple consecutive turns and just resummoned them because he was parking out only two areas with lots of troops, and destroying any Khorne that came for him. The Khorne player got ticks for this, of course. It's just that when it comes to the crunch, everyone is careful not to allow Khorne to double tick and he eventually gets driven out of the running for the win.

    As for wether anyone else plays warriors? Tzeench basically never. Slaanesh plays some, and nurgle plays quite a few.

    As for why Khorne isn't blanketing the board within a few turns? Well sometimes he does, and that generally allows a double tick since lots of combats happen. But it also tends to result in a lot of khorne troops being cleared off the board in those combats and makes it easier to keep him to a single tick (or no tick at all) in a following turn after it happens.

    I freely acknowledge that maybe my group are just terrible at playing Khorne. It's hard to say when I've never played it myself. I'm really just looking for tips since I'd like to do as well as possible and try to remove the stigma.

    Wylderneedshelp on
  • DarianDarian Registered User regular
    Quick thought, though, is that Khorne can be surprisingly effective at picking up VP if everyone runs from him. Look to dominate regions using the skull throne, chase others away from ruination bonuses and claim first/second place on your own. Also, try to maintain the lead on peasants killed for the bonus points in case Plunged into Chaos comes up from the Old World deck.
    Don't go after Tzeentch with your first guy, or else go ahead and put your Bloodthirster down with your first play so that he can't mess with you. And remember that Blood Frenzy gets dice through a Field of Ecstasy.

    ----above was my initial response in the main BG thread----

    The meta-game for Chaos in the Old World will evolve over time in your group. For our games here (links to old games are in the gaming index if you want to check them out), Khorne won a couple of early games then was shut out for 15 games before coming on as the strongest power recently. Being shut out the first turn isn't necessarily a death blow; if they let you expand unmolested, you'll have dice in 6 regions on turn two, and there isn't anywhere for them to run. You can miss one more double-tick and still win the game in six rounds.
    The nice thing about opponents who are afraid to engage Khorne is that they're wasting power and stranding corruption. The more spread out the corruption, the longer the game goes and the better chance Khorne will have of coming back. The problem as everyone is learning the game is that it's much more obvious how to stop Khorne (run away!) than the other gods.

    Some discussions on BoardGameGeek that might be useful to look at:
    Umbratus' Khorne Strategy guide
    Magic gecko's Khorne VP approach (he's Magic Geek on here)
    Bloodthirster first play

    The most important bit from that last one is to make sure Tzeentch knows the following:
    twistau wrote:
    I don't understand the 'teleport fear' at all...
    Tzeentch teleporting Khorne's first unit into an out of the way location is a terrible move.
    This move helps Slannesh and Nurgle far more than it does him.

    Oh, but spotting THAT takes a lot more experience than spotting "OMG, I can totally Maximum screwage teh Khorn!!!11!!oneone!"
    So it is very reasonable that it will come up every once in a while.

    As stated later, Tzeentch is usually better off sending Khorne toward Slaanesh or Nurgle, or best off using a teleport to get himself to far-flung Warpstones or set up position to be able to fight for first/second place ruination in someone else's region.

  • DarianDarian Registered User regular
    In that particular game where Khorne didn't tick at all for two ticks, it was actually a three player game. He got teleported to Norsca and had to create a chain of cultists to get out of there leaving him no engagements on turn 1. On turn 2 he managed to play one warrior each in a slaanesh controlled zone and a tzeench controlled zone, but once he was out of power a fields of ecstasy and teleport came out screwing him out of combat. It was a confluence of factors that made it happen, not saying it could happen a lot, but yeah, he started turn 3 at the start of the dial.

    Three player games are very different in feel from a 4 or 5 player (expansion) game. Three player, without Nurgle to beat up, Khorne almost certainly should have prioritized VP accumulation, with opportunistic ticking, and the initial Bloodthirster play becomes even more tempting.
    Also, Field of Carnage is a great card; even if it just forces the Ecstasy or Changer, you're keeping them on the defensive.

  • texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Ok, having a slight problem over in game 54, yea i know, we haven't even had a turn yet. I can't see the game board from my current computer...I took a look at some other games, and 51 52 54 I can't see the board. but i can see the boards from game 53. Can i ask what the difference is? Maybe i can fix the problem on my end, but i'm not sure what the difference is...

    E- Scratch this, I'm at work and the company is blocking imageshack. Photobucket isn't blocked it seems, and that appears to be the only difference, and thus I can't do anything until i get home. Never mind...

    texasheat on
  • LoserForHireXLoserForHireX Registered User regular
    as i now live very far away from my normal gaming group I need to start playing this again.

    I'd like get myself on the player list. I haven't played any games online so far, but I know my way around the game itself.

    my god preferences are: Horned Rat, Nurgle, Khorne, then I don't really care

    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
    "We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
  • peskypesky Registered User regular
    Game 55 is in pre-game stages with invites being sent out.

  • BobCescaBobCesca Registered User regular
    Can you put me back on the list?

    I think I might actually manage to get the hang of this and it's fun so far.

  • FunkyWaltDoggFunkyWaltDogg Registered User regular
    So...game 51 is amazing.

    Burnage wrote:
    FWD is very good at this game.
  • peskypesky Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Game 55 is underway with
    Bashar as Nurgle
    LoserForHireX as Horned Rat
    Gene as Slaanesh
    Ardor as Khorne
    Cow King as Tzeentch

    pesky on
  • lodwilklodwilk Registered User regular
    If I could be put back on the list, then that would be greatly appreciated.

  • texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    I guess my other post on the other forums got missed, can i get put back on the list please?

  • stever777stever777 AFK most Saturdays Registered User regular
    So, what were you guys saying about Game 51 being mine to lose? :cry:

    Dracula in Daemonis' Fury of Dracula
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    The Black Hole of Cygnus X-1
  • AegisAegis Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    So...game 51 is amazing.

    I still don't understand how with 4 dice split between 3 gods, we needed only 1 kill to prevent it from ruining and we all missed.

    Currently DMing: None right now! :(
    Characters
    [5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 31 | Melee +4/1d8+2 | Spell +4/DC 12
  • blahmcblahblahmcblah I never drink... wine. Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Aegis wrote:
    So...game 51 is amazing.

    I still don't understand how with 4 dice split between 3 gods, we needed only 1 kill to prevent it from ruining and we all missed.

    CHAOS! Also round 4 was FRIGGIN HUGE.

    Edit: Also I'm pretty sure only 3 of those dice might've prevented the ruination; Nurgle probably would've killed the Bloodletter with a hit.

    blahmcblah on
  • RiusRius Registered User regular
    That was a hell of a lot of under empiring and skitterleaping from the Rat. Maybe the Old World won't win after all =(

  • blahmcblahblahmcblah I never drink... wine. Registered User regular
    I never thought it would! Maybe if it was Morrslieb Eclipsed + Vermin Outbreak all game long. But even if all people do is play cultists all day, regions will still ruin and the game will end somehow. I have a hard time believing an Old World victory will actually ever happen.

  • DarianDarian Registered User regular
    texasheat wrote:
    I guess my other post on the other forums got missed, can i get put back on the list please?

    Sorry about that; must have missed your edit there.

  • texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    Darian wrote:
    texasheat wrote:
    I guess my other post on the other forums got missed, can i get put back on the list please?

    Sorry about that; must have missed your edit there.

    Now worries. I forgot i had to edit to put that into it.

  • JebuJebu Registered User regular
    Nurgle consistently impresses me with his comeback power. I always get blindsided by the 30+ point turns he can get.

  • Magic GeekMagic Geek Registered User regular
    So I am going to be on 75+ points this turn?... :)

  • blahmcblahblahmcblah I never drink... wine. Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Nope Probably not, but you did pull off 33 points last round. :P

    Edit: Determined it's highly improbable, but possible!

    blahmcblah on
  • texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    So, something has been bothering me since i started playing this game. Maybe it's been discussed already, but the probility chart at the start of every game is off. WAY off. Kinda broken off. It says, that with 6 battle dice, 1 success is only 7%? When a miss is 1.6%? Would it not be the rest of that 100%? 1.6$ chance of 0. 98.4% chance of success on 1? The whole chart seems...i don't know...broken somehow. Even the thought of it, the chance of success on 6 dice is WAY higher than 7%.

    I've been trying to figure out a good formula for success and failure, but i seem to be failing lol. I've got the lines of succes one 1 dice, that easy. I even have success completed for 0 success and 1 success all the way through 6 dice. However the rest is tricky.

    If i can figure it out for the simplest of them, i can get the rest. 2 dice, 2 successes. What are the odds? Well 1 dice has an 8.33% chance of doing it solo. 2 dice have a 50 50 chance without 6's. I don't get the formula to make that equil a percentage. In my mind, it's 16.66% chance either dice will roll a 6 and be a success, as well as, % chance both dice are 4/5, you can't include 6's cause that would be more hits chance at extra hits right?

    It's already getting complicated and i can't even keep it strait on paper. Will someone smarter than me please help me out?

  • blahmcblahblahmcblah I never drink... wine. Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    You're misunderstanding the way the chart works. 7.8% is the chances of getting exactly 1 hit on 6 dice. The best odds of any exact number are at 3 hits, 23.7%. To get your odds of getting at least 1 hit, all you need to do is subtract the 1.6% chance of missing completely, and yes, you get 98.4%. I think the easiest way to remember how good your chances are without looking at the chart is just to remember that your expected value is 0.6 hits per die, or 3.6 hits in the 6 dice example.

    Edit: If you want to know your odds of getting at least 3 or 4 hits or whatever, just take the percentage by that number and add it up with everything above it, or just add everything below it and subtract the number from 100, whichever is easier. For example, if you're wondering about your chances of getting at least 3 hits on 6 dice, it's 73%.

    blahmcblah on
  • texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    blahmcblah wrote:
    You're misunderstanding the way the chart works. 7.8% is the chances of getting exactly 1 hit on 6 dice. The best odds of any exact number are at 3 hits, 23.7%. To get your odds of getting at least 1 hit, all you need to do is subtract the 1.6% chance of missing completely, and yes, you get 98.4%. I think the easiest way to remember how good your chances are without looking at the chart is just to remember that your expected value is 0.6 hits per die, or 3.6 hits in the 6 dice example.

    Edit: If you want to know your odds of getting at least 3 or 4 hits or whatever, just take the percentage by that number and add it up with everything above it, or just add everything below it and subtract the number from 100, whichever is easier. For example, if you're wondering about your chances of getting at least 3 hits on 6 dice, it's 73%.

    AHH!!! That makes since. ok never mind, thank you for explaining.

  • The BasharThe Bashar Registered User regular
    Can I please be put back on the list?

  • blahmcblahblahmcblah I never drink... wine. Registered User regular
    edited September 2011
    Clan Rat Upgrade + Clan Rats Skitterleaping to region previously devoid of Clan Rats. Extra rat for 0? The upgrade text doesn't say "during the summoning phase," so I can't think of a good reason why not. I have no idea why I never thought of that while I was actually playing as HR...

    blahmcblah on
  • texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    blahmcblah wrote:
    Clan Rat Upgrade + Clan Rats Skitterleaping to region previously devoid of Clan Rats. Extra rat for 0? The upgrade text doesn't say "during the summoning phase," so I can't think of a good reason why not. I have no idea why I never thought of that while I was actually playing as HR...

    The HR continues to be the most awesome god out there. WAY too powerful.

  • DarianDarian Registered User regular
    blahmcblah wrote:
    Clan Rat Upgrade + Clan Rats Skitterleaping to region previously devoid of Clan Rats. Extra rat for 0? The upgrade text doesn't say "during the summoning phase," so I can't think of a good reason why not. I have no idea why I never thought of that while I was actually playing as HR...

    Even better, that should also work via the Under Empire when checking for ruination. Good catch.

  • TmoiyTmoiy Registered User
    Darian wrote:
    blahmcblah wrote:
    Clan Rat Upgrade + Clan Rats Skitterleaping to region previously devoid of Clan Rats. Extra rat for 0? The upgrade text doesn't say "during the summoning phase," so I can't think of a good reason why not. I have no idea why I never thought of that while I was actually playing as HR...

    Even better, that should also work via the Under Empire when checking for ruination. Good catch.

    My mind is totally blown.

  • texasheattexasheat Registered User regular
    Rius wrote:
    Next game Horned Rat

    I call dibs

    Man, damn it...we should just ban the HR, no more. Lol. 4 player chaos only.

  • FunkyWaltDoggFunkyWaltDogg Registered User regular
    texasheat wrote:
    Rius wrote:
    Next game Horned Rat

    I call dibs

    Man, damn it...we should just ban the HR, no more. Lol. 4 player chaos only.

    Come now, it's not nearly so imbalanced as that (check out the game stats at BGG if you don't believe me). I think the biggest issue is that the rate of games played per player is far fewer than if we were all together playing IRL, so our metagame adjusts much more slowly than it otherwise would. We still don't really know what we're doing with the expansion.

    Burnage wrote:
    FWD is very good at this game.
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