The cultural permeation of athletes

OnTheLastCastle

spool32 wrote:

Jordan on top, absolutely. Tiger Woods as well, or perhaps Arnold Palmer. Probably Tiger.

I can't get drunk on a Tiger Woods!

OnTheLastCastle

Chanus wrote:

Organichu wrote:

Well, I guess there are no hard and fast rules. It's a big cocktail of

-modernity
-how much they're on television
-how good they were at their sport
-whether they're still alive
-whether they're still playing
-whether they were well liked
-whether they have any products (Foreman Grill, Air Jordans, Tigers' face on Gatorade, etc)

There's definitely no right or wrong answer, though I think the one definite is that Michael Jordan is either at or very near to the top of the list.

I don't see how anyone could dispute Jordan, no.

Except maybe with Kobe... being that he's sort of this generation's Jordan.

Jordan is still this generations Jordan, IMO.

Chanus

spool32 wrote:

Jordan on top, absolutely. Tiger Woods as well, or perhaps Arnold Palmer. Probably Tiger.

Arnold Palmer if you're over 60, maybe.

spool32

Chanus wrote:

Organichu wrote:

Well, I guess there are no hard and fast rules. It's a big cocktail of

-modernity
-how much they're on television
-how good they were at their sport
-whether they're still alive
-whether they're still playing
-whether they were well liked
-whether they have any products (Foreman Grill, Air Jordans, Tigers' face on Gatorade, etc)

There's definitely no right or wrong answer, though I think the one definite is that Michael Jordan is either at or very near to the top of the list.

I don't see how anyone could dispute Jordan, no.

Except maybe with Kobe... being that he's sort of this generation's Jordan.

When you're "this generation's version of someone more famous" you haven't made it high enough yet. In 15 years if people are calling some player "this generation's LaBron James", then you know Bron Bron has staying power.

Deebaser

emnmnme wrote:

Sports memes that grab even the non-sports people, huh? I just bought All-Star Pro Football from Gamestop yesterday for $1. This is an XBOX 360 football game where all the legends of the sport, the best of the best, are selectable and can be mixed and matched in any way you see fit. Despite having a huge stable of well-known Hall of Famers, the game sold poorly. This makes me think that even though you're a household name, it doesn't mean the average Joe cares about you ... that's kind of bizarre if you think about it.

I already have Madden. My Friends have Madden. I can play Madden with my friends online. Why would I want to play All Star Pro Football?

DoctorArch

Chu, I wonder if asking ourselves the question "Will people remember this man/woman as the prime example of their sport for decades/centuries after they retire?" helps.

Going off your list, I would definitely keep Tiger Woods where he is now, but I think he probably replaced Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus.

Michael Jordan belongs there, so does Gretzky. Favre isn't a bad example of football at all, but Joe Namath may be up there. Baseball has a long-ass history with luminaries like Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, Lou Gehrig, and that's just a start. It is hard to limit baseball down to one legend because it has had so many legendary players. Beckham is probably a good pick for the US due to the limited exposure of soccer, and while I am unsure about tennis, but the Williams sisters are probably a good pick.

OnTheLastCastle

I love me some John Madden so maybe!

“If the quaterback throws the ball in the endzone and the Wide Receiver catches it……. It’s a touchdown.”

Robos A Go Go

DoctorArch wrote:

I wonder if Kobe Bryant ever sits awake at night with the knowledge that regardless of how good he is, he will never be loved like Michael Jordan.

I sit awake with that knowledge every night.

emnmnme

I don't follow pro football. How do I know who Johnny Unitas is? How did this name get planted in my brain when I don't even know what he accomplished as a quarterback? His career was over before I was born.

OnTheLastCastle

It's funny how some sports are still generating what I consider "legends" and some aren't. Fuck baseball. Seriously, who will remember any of the baseball players in 50 years like they do Ruth, Mantle, Robinson and Gehrig. I may be wrong, it's just a feeling. I feel like that game has lost whatever majesty it once had on the American psyche.

Chanus

spool32 wrote:

Chanus wrote:

I don't see how anyone could dispute Jordan, no.

Except maybe with Kobe... being that he's sort of this generation's Jordan.

When you're "this generation's version of someone more famous" you haven't made it high enough yet. In 15 years if people are calling some player "this generation's LaBron James", then you know Bron Bron has staying power.

While I agree, I don't know how many of this generation would call Kobe Bryant "my generation's Michael Jordan".

Like... how it's relevant to the current generation is part of the equation... which is why someone like Joe Montana probably doesn't apply, even though he was arguably the best quarterback of a generation that fielded most of the best quarterbacks in the history of the game. That guy in the underwear ads?

OnTheLastCastle

emnmnme wrote:

I don't follow pro football. How do I know who Johnny Unitas is? How did this name get planted in my brain when I don't even know what he accomplished as a quarterback? His career was over before I was born.

It is a cool name. I know the name too but not what he played.

Yougottawanna

We should try and figure out what characteristics all the people on the list have in common. For instance athletic dominance is not one of them - Beckham's the most famous face in soccer, but he was never the best player in the sport.

In some cases it's down to the team or situation: Jeter wouldn't be on this list if he'd played for the Florida Marlins, for instance. The Williams sisters probably wouldn't be so famous if there were only one of them.

matt has a problem

DoctorArch wrote:

Chu, I wonder if asking ourselves the question "Will people remember this man/woman as the prime example of their sport for decades/centuries after they retire?" helps.

Going off your list, I would definitely keep Tiger Woods where he is now, but I think he probably replaced Arnold Palmer or Jack Nicklaus.

Michael Jordan belongs there, so does Gretzky. Favre isn't a bad example of football at all, but Joe Namath may be up there. Baseball has a long-ass history with luminaries like Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Joe DiMaggio, Lou Gehrig, and that's just a start. It is hard to limit baseball down to one legend because it has had so many legendary players. Beckham is probably a good pick for the US due to the limited exposure of soccer, and while I am unsure about tennis, but the Williams sisters are probably a good pick.

I think Andre Agassi will probably have more staying power than the Williams Sisters. Beckham is more well known in the US for marrying one of the spice girls and for commercials than soccer though. If you're going purely on "why" someone is known, I'd say Pele would have more soccer-based name recognition here than Beckham.

Chanus

emnmnme wrote:

I don't follow pro football. How do I know who Johnny Unitas is? How did this name get planted in my brain when I don't even know what he accomplished as a quarterback? His career was over before I was born.

He was like the Peyton Manning of the 1950s.

DoctorArch

OnTheLastCastle wrote:

It's funny how some sports are still generating what I consider "legends" and some aren't. Fuck baseball. Seriously, who will remember any of the baseball players in 50 years like they do Ruth, Mantle, Robinson and Gehrig. I may be wrong, it's just a feeling. I feel like that game has lost whatever majesty it once had on the American psyche.

There are a few players who will remain popular because they are throwbacks to that classic era. Cal Ripken Jr. really comes to mind.

spool32

How about Michael Phelps (swimming) and Apolo Ohno (speed skating)?

Edit: Arch, see also: Nolan Ryan

OnTheLastCastle

Yougottawanna wrote:

We should try and figure out what characteristics all the people on the list have in common. For instance athletic dominance is not one of them - Beckham's the most famous face in soccer, but he was never the best player in the sport.

In some cases it's down to the team or situation: Jeter wouldn't be on this list if he'd played for the Florida Marlins, for instance. The Williams sisters probably wouldn't be so famous if there were only one of them.

Like I said earlier it is enmeshment with popular culture OR a narrative that is heroic or infamous. Usually both.

Tiger Woods is an amazing golfer, a million product placement, likeable and black. The last part is unique. Then he had a scandal.

Michael Jordan was among the best players ever, so was Larry Bird and Magic Johnson, but he did more products AND a fucking cartoon movie!

Tyson combined extreme talent and winning with a downward personal trajectory.

Yougottawanna

emnmnme wrote:

I don't follow pro football. How do I know who Johnny Unitas is? How did this name get planted in my brain when I don't even know what he accomplished as a quarterback? His career was over before I was born.

Do you watch the Simpsons? I know people who know the name "Johnny Unitas" just because of that one Simpsons joke.

OnTheLastCastle

Michael Phelps and OJ Simpson should be on my list.

spool32

And of course Lance Armstrong has transcended. He's right up there with Tiger IMHO.

Chanus

DoctorArch wrote:

OnTheLastCastle wrote:

It's funny how some sports are still generating what I consider "legends" and some aren't. Fuck baseball. Seriously, who will remember any of the baseball players in 50 years like they do Ruth, Mantle, Robinson and Gehrig. I may be wrong, it's just a feeling. I feel like that game has lost whatever majesty it once had on the American psyche.

There are a few players who will remain popular because they are throwbacks to that classic era. Cal Ripken Jr. really comes to mind.

Cal Ripken Jr. is kind of all by himself.

He's seriously one of the last truly great players of the game from a bygone era. Like... I'm not saying he's better than Jeter... I'm saying you can't even really compare them... and he only retired, what? 15 years ago?

OnTheLastCastle

But Michael Phelps will be replaced by whatever next great Olympic athlete we have. It happens so infrequently that they can't stay mythic forever.

emnmnme

OnTheLastCastle wrote:

emnmnme wrote:

I don't follow pro football. How do I know who Johnny Unitas is? How did this name get planted in my brain when I don't even know what he accomplished as a quarterback? His career was over before I was born.

It is a cool name. I know the name too but not what he played.

This is what I mean. I just picked this name up without knowing anything about him. The same goes with Jeff Gordon, Anna Kournikova, and Sean White. I don't know these people other than the sports they play! Why are they in my brain!?

Yougottawanna

Might be worth establishing a time limit - like, who was the last athlete to achieve that universal recognition? Ali is bigger than Tyson, but Tyson was the last boxer to capture the public's attention in a way comparable to Ali. Same with the Beckham vs. Pele comparison.

DoctorArch

spool32 wrote:

How about Michael Phelps (swimming) and Apolo Ohno (speed skating)?

Edit: Arch, see also: Nolan Ryan

Nolan Ryan has always been one of my favorite players, but I think he, like Ripkin, probably belong more to fans of baseball than to everybody like Ruth/Gehrig/Robinson etc. My guess is that the early players maintain their cultural dominance in our collective psyches because they came about during a time with little competition (i.e., from other sports or distractions) and were subsequently held up as symbols of a different time and place.

OnTheLastCastle

My list of the most "recognized" sports figures:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Tiger Woods
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Wayne Gretsky
5. Babe Ruth (still want Jackie Robinson but whatever)
6. OJ Simpson
7. Lance Armstrong
8. Mike Tyson
9. Billie Fuckin' Jean King except everyone will think I mean the song
10. Mickey Mantle

matt has a problem

Yougottawanna wrote:

Might be worth establishing a time limit - like, who was the last athlete to achieve that universal recognition? Ali is bigger than Tyson, but Tyson was the last boxer to capture the public's attention in a way comparable to Ali. Same with the Beckham vs. Pele comparison.

It's harder now because athletes personal lives are so much more in the public eye too. I mean, even just 20 years ago, nobody knew what Joe Montana ate for breakfast. It's become a blend of being famous because they're an athlete, and famous because they're famous.

DoctorArch

OnTheLastCastle wrote:

But Michael Phelps will be replaced by whatever next great Olympic athlete we have. It happens so infrequently that they can't stay mythic forever.

But that raises the question of Olympic legends. We certainly have some, regardless of whether or not their records have been broken.

Chanus

OnTheLastCastle wrote:

My list of the most "recognized" sports figures:
1. Michael Jordan
2. Tiger Woods
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Wayne Gretsky
5. Babe Ruth (still want Jackie Robinson but whatever)
6. OJ Simpson
7. Lance Armstrong
8. Mike Tyson
9. Billie Fuckin' Jean King except everyone will think I mean the song
10. Mickey Mantle

Haha... i was going to say earlier, "When I think tennis, I think Jimmy Connors and Billie Jean King!"

Chanus

DoctorArch wrote:

OnTheLastCastle wrote:

But Michael Phelps will be replaced by whatever next great Olympic athlete we have. It happens so infrequently that they can't stay mythic forever.

But that raises the question of Olympic legends. We certainly have some, regardless of whether or not their records have been broken.

Dan and Dave!

spool32

Chanus wrote:

DoctorArch wrote:

OnTheLastCastle wrote:

But Michael Phelps will be replaced by whatever next great Olympic athlete we have. It happens so infrequently that they can't stay mythic forever.

But that raises the question of Olympic legends. We certainly have some, regardless of whether or not their records have been broken.

Dan and Dave!

Carl Lewis.

OnTheLastCastle

I hope you mean Dan Gable. Love that guy.

Chanus

spool32 wrote:

Chanus wrote:

DoctorArch wrote:

OnTheLastCastle wrote:

But Michael Phelps will be replaced by whatever next great Olympic athlete we have. It happens so infrequently that they can't stay mythic forever.

But that raises the question of Olympic legends. We certainly have some, regardless of whether or not their records have been broken.

Dan and Dave!

Carl Lewis.

Yes, but I was joking

Jackie Joyner-Kersee

Chanus

OnTheLastCastle wrote:

I hope you mean Dan Gable. Love that guy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_&_Dave

Hilarious tale of marketing being foiled by reality.

DoctorArch

Oh how I loved Dan & Dave!

Organichu

I wonder if Ron Jeremy is an athlete.

matt has a problem

Organichu wrote:

I wonder if Ron Jeremy is an athlete.

Only if he has a lisp.

Chanus

matt has a problem wrote:

Organichu wrote:

I wonder if Ron Jeremy is an athlete.

Only if he has a lisp.

/slowclap

Organichu

SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME THE JOKE.