Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali, Tiger Woods, and Babe Ruth are the 4 biggest names in sports history. Mike Tyson, Gretsky, the rest are big, but not on the level of those 4.
I'd put Pelé or Maradonna up there with the above. Especially Pelé.
You are thinking about sports prowess rather than name familiarity with non-sports-fans. General public name familiarity doesn't always end up going to the most talented athlete.
What do you guys think about athletes that people don't know their names, but would recognize a sporting action of theirs. ie "the girl that stripped off her shirt on the field after winning the world cup" (Brandy Chastain) or "the girl that won the US a gold medal with a broken ankle" (Kerri Strug), they are at least known for sporting related stuff as opposed to George Foreman or OJ Simpson.
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Halfhanda stalwart bastion of terrible ideasRegistered Userregular
I think part of the reason some sports, and thus some sports players, become more famous than others is their ability to be played by the average joe. The other part is how watchable they are. MMA has one of these, bowling has the other; basketball has both.
Kind of. Golf, Basketball, and to a lesser extent baseball are both. Boxing not so much. The main thing is that Jordan, Ali, and Woods completely and utterly dominated the media and popular culture for long periods of time in their prime. Ali was consistently huge in the 60's and 70's. Jordan was the biggest sports star alive and maybe biggest celebrity alive during the 80's and especially 90's. Woods is woods. Ruth is a legend and is kind of synonymous with Baseball.
The top 3 also single handedly popularized their respective sport to insane degrees.
Uh, David Beckham in soccer? Not Pelé? That seems really off to me.
I mean, Beckham is better known for his relationship with Victoria 'Posh Spice' Adams than his soccer talent, which was never really legendary.
EDIT:
Also, Dale Earnhardt, Jr. is an obvious choice for NASCAR. It's not even a question. I hate NASCAR, I still know who the dude is.
I do not care what anybody says: driving a car really fast around a track is not a sport. It's a talent, doing it competitively requires a lot of skill, and NASCAR knows how to put together a great live show, but it's not a damn sport.
You should read up on the Klitschko brothers. Let me just break down this incredible situation for you:
Handsome brothers, one 6'6", the other 6'8". They both have doctorates. They've both started charities independently, and work on other philanthropic projects jointly. Wlad has an Olympic gold medal. They both speak four languages. They both hold heavyweight boxing titles. Vitali is married to a former model and they have three children. Wlad has dated hollywood starlets.
I mean... their mom must literally never stop bragging ever.
The problem is, they're ultimately both really boring (and they won't fight one another which, while a respectable expression of brotherly love, ain't helping their Q rating.)
What does it take to make a "crossover" star? All the athletes people are naming in the Jordan/Ali/etc discussion were/are charismatic and exciting performers in addition to being at the top of their sport. Hell, people cared about U.S. tennis when McEnroe was cursing out umpires; now, not so much. Simply being really good at your sport will get you a following among fans, but you can't become a "household name" without having a personality that translates into other media. This is true even in the NFL (arguably the least star-driven of the major sports.)
Mayweather maybe could've managed it if he hadn't decided that wearing the black hat was a better way to market himself. MMA hasn't had a really charismatic fighter yet.
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
You should read up on the Klitschko brothers. Let me just break down this incredible situation for you:
Handsome brothers, one 6'6", the other 6'8". They both have doctorates. They've both started charities independently, and work on other philanthropic projects jointly. Wlad has an Olympic gold medal. They both speak four languages. They both hold heavyweight boxing titles. Vitali is married to a former model and they have three children. Wlad has dated hollywood starlets.
I mean... their mom must literally never stop bragging ever.
The problem is, they're ultimately both really boring (and they won't fight one another which, while a respectable expression of brotherly love, ain't helping their Q rating.)
What does it take to make a "crossover" star? All the athletes people are naming in the Jordan/Ali/etc discussion were/are charismatic and exciting performers in addition to being at the top of their sport. Hell, people cared about U.S. tennis when McEnroe was cursing out umpires; now, not so much. Simply being really good at your sport will get you a following among fans, but you can't become a "household name" without having a personality that translates into other media. This is true even in the NFL (arguably the least star-driven of the major sports.)
Mayweather maybe could've managed it if he hadn't decided that wearing the black hat was a better way to market himself. MMA hasn't had a really charismatic fighter yet.
1) The Klitschko brothers are boring because nobody wants to be beaten by a 6'8" monster, damn the paycheck. No more famous heavyweights like young Tyson. Maybe David Haye and a handful of guys from the former SSRs. Probably because there haven't been any U.S. superstars in a while.
2) Contrasting cultural permeation of athletes vs. their own place in the sport:
Someone once said there was a comparison between Sugar Ray Leonard and Sugar Ray Robinson. Believe me, there's no comparison. Sugar Ray Robinson was the greatest.
—Sugar Ray Leonard
The one thing this thread has taught me is that the more emphatically someone insists that an athelete is a household name, the less likely I am to have heard of them.
The four (six, really) that Halfhand lists...you have heard of these, right?
I've heard of the people who are actually famous. And I've heard of more who are less famous even. But when people mention Jordan or Ali, Tyson, Woods, these are all names that they drop without comment. Just, "these are my list". Of course I've heard of them.
When someone names someone and then goes on to insist that they are famous, that is when I am almost guaranteed not to know them, especially with regards to hockey, MMA, or another sport which you don't hear about outside of watching it.
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A lot of this list could be debated forever, but for boxing, the answer is Ali. Plain and simple.
Winning the Olympic Gold Medal and literally throwing it away in frustration over race relations?
"No Viet Cong ever called me a n****r"?
"Ali Bumaye"?
One of the most famous images in all of sports?
If we're talking about cultural impact (domestic or global) there's an argument to be made for Ali being the most important athlete who ever lived, bar none.
For him to be trumped in his own sport by the guy from The Hangover? There's really no rationale for that besides recency of events. We never really established where that "age cutoff" is for purposes of this discussion, but (unlike your example of Babe Ruth) the man is still alive, and there are plenty of people of intarweb age who either saw him fight or were made aware of him by the media storm that surrounded him on a regular basis.
edit: Sugar Ray may have been the most talented and respected man within his sport, but if we're still looking for "aggregate cultural penetration", it's Ali.
You should read up on the Klitschko brothers. Let me just break down this incredible situation for you:
Handsome brothers, one 6'6", the other 6'8". They both have doctorates. They've both started charities independently, and work on other philanthropic projects jointly. Wlad has an Olympic gold medal. They both speak four languages. Wlad is the HW Champion of the world. Vitali has the only belt Wlad hasn't taken. Vitali is married to a former model and they have three children. Wlad has dated hollywood starlets.
I mean... their mom must literally never stop bragging ever.
The problem is, they're ultimately both really boring (and they won't fight one another which, while a respectable expression of brotherly love, ain't helping their Q rating.)
People who call Wlad boring are the same people who would call Royce Gracie or GSP boring. Wlad doesn't care about the KO, he cares about the W.
Anyone who calls Vitali boring is just confusing him for Wlad.
Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali, Tiger Woods, and Babe Ruth are the 4 biggest names in sports history. Mike Tyson, Gretsky, the rest are big, but not on the level of those 4.
I think in the US at least Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan stand out even above Ali and Woods.
I'd also insert Pele in as a clearly dominant name in a sport. In the US, it actually became a common taunt. "Pele" is what you call someone who does something clumsy in the same way you call someone who does something dumb "Einstein."
Babe Ruth is so far removed from a contemporary setting that he's not within the framework of Organichu's intended discussion, but yeah, he's a cultural staple.
Michael Jordan is/was a sports and media empire unto himself, so there's not much room for debate on who the "biggest" basketball star is.
Pelé is a case of somebody who dominates sport culture in about 95% of the world, but I'd agree with the assertion that his cultural penetration strictly within the U.S. is much more limited than the other "4 biggest". Which is an interesting phenomenon itself.
Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali, Tiger Woods, and Babe Ruth are the 4 biggest names in sports history. Mike Tyson, Gretsky, the rest are big, but not on the level of those 4.
I think in the US at least Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan stand out even above Ali and Woods.
I'd also insert Pele in as a clearly dominant name in a sport. In the US, it actually became a common taunt. "Pele" is what you call someone who does something clumsy in the same way you call someone who does something dumb "Einstein."
Pele and Lance Armstrong. Both of those guys are on par with Jordan/Ruth/Ali/Woods.
I totally forgoet about Lance Armstrong. He's definitely a contender (though competitive biking isn't really big here in America at all). I'd be astonished if a non-trivial number of Americans could name another major cyclist.
Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali, Tiger Woods, and Babe Ruth are the 4 biggest names in sports history. Mike Tyson, Gretsky, the rest are big, but not on the level of those 4.
I think in the US at least Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan stand out even above Ali and Woods.
I'd also insert Pele in as a clearly dominant name in a sport. In the US, it actually became a common taunt. "Pele" is what you call someone who does something clumsy in the same way you call someone who does something dumb "Einstein."
Pele and Lance Armstrong. Both of those guys are on par with Jordan/Ruth/Ali/Woods.
I don't follow sports. Sometimes I'll watch parts of the olympics. Occasionally I'm in the room while someone else watches a game/match/thing. That's about it.
I have no idea who Pele is beyond a vague recollection of hearing about him in reference to soccer, reinforced by context in this thread.
I've never heard of any of the Hockey people except Gretzky, and about 80% of the football guys I either have no idea about or sort of recognize the names but probably wouldn't have been able to say they were football players if asked. I know Peyton Manning does something in sports because he's been in the news for something, but I couldn't tell you what he plays or what he's in the news for.
The Top 4 or Top 6 or whatever I think I recognize all of, though I'm only vaguely aware of who the Williamses are in regard to tennis. I wouldn't recognize the name of a single MMA fighter. But if you want a Football guy... how is John Madden not the obvious answer? I have no idea who he played for, what position he played, when he played, or how good he was at it, but he's essentially synonymous with video game football. I know who Brett Farve is, but only because I heard about him quitting and coming back and quitting again or some such on morning talk radio a year or so ago. I'm not sure there's a person in the US who couldn't put Madden together with Football, whether they give a shit about the sport or not.
Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali, Tiger Woods, and Babe Ruth are the 4 biggest names in US sports history
I know it was in context, but still. Nobody knows who Babe Ruth is in Europe. Sorry.
Edit: Also, yeah, as far as name recognition world wide goes, Pele is way above those four taken together.
If you ask non-Americans about this, I'm guessing you'd just end up with a list of entirely soccer players (and maaaaaybe Michael Jordan). I really don't think any non-American would pick Muhammed Ali or Babe Ruth. Just like if you poll Canadians they'd all pick Wayne Gretski, but I don't think he's really that famous beyond being "that one hockey player that I've heard of".
Michael Jordan, Muhammed Ali, Tiger Woods, and Babe Ruth are the 4 biggest names in US sports history
I know it was in context, but still. Nobody knows who Babe Ruth is in Europe. Sorry.
Edit: Also, yeah, as far as name recognition world wide goes, Pele is way above those four taken together.
If you ask non-Americans about this, I'm guessing you'd just end up with a list of entirely soccer players (and maaaaaybe Michael Jordan). I really don't think any non-American would pick Muhammed Ali or Babe Ruth. Just like if you poll Canadians they'd all pick Wayne Gretski, but I don't think he's really that famous beyond being "that one hockey player that I've heard of".
My gf knows Ali and Tyson both, Woods, Williams sisters, Beckham, Armstrong, Jordan doesn't know the rest and doesn't even know what MMA is.
She also knows at least a hundred football players, so I'm inclined to agree with you.
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Podlyyou unzipped me! it's all coming back! i don't like it!Registered Userregular
I really don't think any non-American would pick Muhammed Ali or Babe Ruth. Just like if you poll Canadians they'd all pick Wayne Gretski, but I don't think he's really that famous beyond being "that one hockey player that I've heard of".
Not to belabor the point, but Ali's fights in Zaire and the Philippines were some of the biggest sports news of their day. Half of Kinshasa was chanting Ali's name going into that fight. He's stayed in the cultural memory of sub-Saharan Africa in particular quite a bit longer than a typical American sports star, which is part of why I pointed him out. But yeah, every country's going to have their own favorites, those few transcendent stars aside. Going by sheer numbers, Yao Ming probably ought to be in the top five, at least.
I really don't think any non-American would pick Muhammed Ali or Babe Ruth. Just like if you poll Canadians they'd all pick Wayne Gretski, but I don't think he's really that famous beyond being "that one hockey player that I've heard of".
Not to belabor the point, but Ali's fights in Zaire and the Philippines were some of the biggest sports news of their day. Half of Kinshasa was chanting Ali's name going into that fight. He's stayed in the cultural memory of sub-Saharan Africa in particular quite a bit longer than a typical American sports star, which is part of why I pointed him out. But yeah, every country's going to have their own favorites, those few transcendent stars aside. Going by sheer numbers, Yao Ming probably ought to be in the top five, at least.
Actually, thinking about this again, I think I've changed my mind. Going by sheer numbers is probably not the best way to measure this, because it's going to massively overemphasize anyone like Yao Ming, who just happens to be really good at a really popular sport right now, but he'll probably be forgotten quickly as soon as he retires. My experience talking to Chinese people is that they really don't have much knowledge of events that happened more than 10 years ago.
Muhammed Ali deserves extra attention since he could stay famous after all this time, and in sub-Saharan Africa of all places where it's kind of hard for them to follow international sports news. Babe Ruth too, since he completely changed the way baseball is played and has stayed famous for so long, even though his fame is probably limited to just the US. Jordan and Tiger Woods are probably less noteworthy, since a huge amount of their fame is just that they're a massively successful brand to sell Nike gear.
So in terms of long lasting, general cultural impact, I think I'd pick Pele, Muhammed Ali, and Babe Ruth, even if they're not as famous right now as Messi or C. Ronaldo.
There's a fairly simple test for modern athletes: could you buy [person X] being invited to host Saturday Night Live? That's about as (and this is hilariously ironic) white bread and mainstream as you can get.
Current athletes who have done so, as a smell test:
Michael Phelps, Lebron James, Peyton Manning, Lance Armstrong, Tom Brady, Andy Roddick, Jeff Gordon, Derek Jeter
Other than Roddick, that's not bad. Gordon is a stretch, but probably wasn't when he did it (2003).
Going backwards:
Deion Sanders, George Foreman, Nancy Kerrigan (not long after that whole mess... so yeah), Charles Barkley (twice, once as a player and once for being on TNT's studio show), Michael Jordon, Chris Evert, Wayne Gretzky, Walter Payton, Joe Montana, Marvin Hagler, Bill Russell, OJ Simpson, Fran Tarkenton.
That is, again, a pretty good list, especially when they were hosting.
So I think the question this thread asks is "who can you see being invited in the future that is not among those names?"
Beckham comes to mind immediately, partly because of his wife. But that's cultural pervasiveness which is the question. Favre if he was willing to do 100,000 penis jokes. I could buy one of the Williams sisters (probably Serena).
Then, lastly, who would we not be surprised to be invited from the past if we reincarnated them or restored them to their primes?
Babe Ruth without a doubt. Muhammed Ali (and he absolutely would have hosted at some point and been great at it if it weren't for his health), Joe DiMaggio (again, married to Marilyn Monroe gets him bonus points), Jackie Robinson, John McEnroe, and I think we're done. Possibly the elder Earnhardt or Richard Petty.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I think there are other olympic athletes that were immensely popular right after a specific olympics or two that would pass the SNL test if they had been later:
Bonnie Blair
Marie Lou Retton
Kristie Yamaguchi
Greg Lougainis
Also, I have never heard of some of the people on your SNL list. (Charles Barkley, Chris Evert, Walter Payton, Marvin Hagler, Bill Russel and Fran Tarkenton)
There are also people talking about vastly different things right now in this thread. There are some people talking about cultural penetration of a person's sport prowess and other people are talking about pure name recognition. But really it is hard to separate in some cases. Lots of people cheat on their spouse's, Tiger Woods only gets into the tabloids for doing so because he is good at golf. Random men didn't get famous for marrying the other spice girls, but because Beckham was already a semi-public figure he got famous for marrying his wife.
Also, is anyone else bothered by the lack of women on all these lists? I'm not saying this as a comment on anything in this thread, more as a comment of the lack of cultural permeation of female athletes.
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I had no idea Marilyn Monroe was married to Joe D.
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Twice, I think?
Kistra, no not really. Women's sports haven't quite taken off that much. Ecco and I were talking about this last night, the list thing, and he couldn't come up with Babe Ruth without quite a bit of prodding.
He came up with beckham, Serena Williams, Tiger Woods was the first name out of his mouth. But he's a kiwi, not an american.
As far as women athletes go? Most of the names that we came up with last night were Tennis. Navritalova, sharipova, Graff, Billie Jean King, Williams sisters. I tossed in mary Lou Retten, Bonnie Blair, Pikaboo Street. So there are some names that people will recognize, but most of them are not from overall culture and more paying slight attention to sports.
Full disclosure, I remember Martina Navritalova because she was on an episode of Sesame Street when i was little.
I had no idea Marilyn Monroe was married to Joe D.
themoreyouknow.jpg
Twice, I think?
Kistra, no not really. Women's sports haven't quite taken off that much. Ecco and I were talking about this last night, the list thing, and he couldn't come up with Babe Ruth without quite a bit of prodding.
He came up with beckham, Serena Williams, Tiger Woods was the first name out of his mouth. But he's a kiwi, not an american.
As far as women athletes go? Most of the names that we came up with last night were Tennis. Navritalova, sharipova, Graff, Billie Jean King, Williams sisters. I tossed in mary Lou Retten, Bonnie Blair, Pikaboo Street. So there are some names that people will recognize, but most of them are not from overall culture and more paying slight attention to sports.
Full disclosure, I remember Martina Navritalova because she was on an episode of Sesame Street when i was little.
Just once. Ms. Monroe also married Arthur Miller, who wrote The Crucible and other things. And was a Michigan grad (woo!).
Female athletes are better known if they're hot. And are frequently better known because they're hot. See: Anna Kournikova. Which is sad, but reality.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
For him to be trumped in his own sport by the guy from The Hangover? There's really no rationale for that besides recency of events. We never really established where that "age cutoff" is for purposes of this discussion, but (unlike your example of Babe Ruth) the man is still alive, and there are plenty of people of intarweb age who either saw him fight or were made aware of him by the media storm that surrounded him on a regular basis.
There's a reason Tyson was in The Hangover. It's because he has the level of cultural permeation that he does. Not only was he absolutely amazing in his prime, but then obviously his...troubles...afterward just kept him in the spotlight.
I do not care what anybody says: driving a car really fast around a track is not a sport. It's a talent, doing it competitively requires a lot of skill, and NASCAR knows how to put together a great live show, but it's not a damn sport.
Bullshit. I'd be greatly interested in knowing what, precisely, is required of an activity for it to qualify as a "sport" by your definition.
It's a shame, from a sports perspective, that Tyson is a terrible, stupid human being, because he was an amazing boxer.
Actually, Mike Tyson has become a vegan and a pretty devout muslim. And his twitter stream is pretty awesome, full of stuff like "I bit Evander because I was undisciplined at that moment. I had nothing to lose then. I had no wife, I didn’t have my kids." and "I always had the 'glamour life' when all I wanted was serenity." and "I’m just trying to convey gratitude."
So, yeah, Tyson was pretty monstrous, but watch what you say, because it seems like he's put in a lot of effort to change.
It's a shame, from a sports perspective, that Tyson is a terrible, stupid human being, because he was an amazing boxer.
Actually, Mike Tyson has become a vegan and a pretty devout muslim. And his twitter stream is pretty awesome, full of stuff like "I bit Evander because I was undisciplined at that moment. I had nothing to lose then. I had no wife, I didn’t have my kids." and "I always had the 'glamour life' when all I wanted was serenity." and "I’m just trying to convey gratitude."
So, yeah, Tyson was pretty monstrous, but watch what you say, because it seems like he's put in a lot of effort to change.
While I was unaware of this, and it is admirable, I tend to take a very hard stance towards rapists. Personal opinion.
Tyson may be trying to turn his life around, but Twitter isn't the place to do it. He'd probably be better served just dropping off the radar as best he can, rather than being in The Hangover and taking part in Sheen roasts. He was a motherfucking monster in the ring who won fights well before the opening bell, but he's going to be remembered for biting another man's ear off, and there's really not a lot he can do about it at this point. Aside from that, though, his loss to Buster Douglas kind of killed a good deal of his mystique. Once it was clear that he wasn't a superman, he started a fast descent. A part of what made Jordan's legacy so concrete, was that he did get out of the game before deteriorating much. He was still largely seen as the best basketball player in the world when he retired. His baseball stint could have hurt him, but it was brief enough to be forgotten.
I'm sad that I missed this thread for a few days. For people who've said that MMA stars simply don't have the same level of recognition as guys from more mainstream fights, that was largely the sentiment expressed in the MMA thread discussion. A guy like Jon Jones has the potential to be the best MMA fighter in the history of the sport, but unless there's a huge leap forward in the widespread recognition of MMA with the UFC/Fox deal, then he stands no chance of achieving the sort of widespread cultural resonance that Jordan had. You need to be recognized by experts as one of the greatest of all time in your sport, but also have the kind of deep cultural impact that cements an athlete's legacy for decades. There's a reason that kids, who know nothing about boxing, still know that Ali was one of the greatest to this day, and it's not just because he had a movie made about him. The name Ali simply is boxing.
Tyson was definitely a scumbag... but he's done his time and I still root for him even while acknowledging his scumbag past.
IMO hoping Jon Jones will be as big as Ali is a futile hope - boxing was way bigger then than MMA is now. What you would hope is that Jon Jones through his ability raises the profile of the sport to somewhere higher than it is now. For him in particular it might be tricky because he's not the most charismatic guy, nor is he that comfortable in front of a camera (though this may change in the future).
However I bet he will raise the profile of MMA, and partly because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy so to speak. UFC/Fox believe they have a star, believe they have an edge, so they promote Jon Jones and his fights aggressively - and through doing so, Jon Jones actually does become a star with wider name recognition. It can come from unexpected places too - I have a non-MMA watching friend that sometimes asks me about Tank Abbott, because Tank Abbott was on Friends that one time.
Basically what I'm saying is that Jon Jones needs to be a Jersey Shore castmember ASAP.
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Jerry Rice
Jason Taylor
Hines Ward
and a few others are all household names now. All because of Dancing with the Stars.
@Cpt Howdy,
You are thinking about sports prowess rather than name familiarity with non-sports-fans. General public name familiarity doesn't always end up going to the most talented athlete.
What do you guys think about athletes that people don't know their names, but would recognize a sporting action of theirs. ie "the girl that stripped off her shirt on the field after winning the world cup" (Brandy Chastain) or "the girl that won the US a gold medal with a broken ankle" (Kerri Strug), they are at least known for sporting related stuff as opposed to George Foreman or OJ Simpson.
Kind of. Golf, Basketball, and to a lesser extent baseball are both. Boxing not so much. The main thing is that Jordan, Ali, and Woods completely and utterly dominated the media and popular culture for long periods of time in their prime. Ali was consistently huge in the 60's and 70's. Jordan was the biggest sports star alive and maybe biggest celebrity alive during the 80's and especially 90's. Woods is woods. Ruth is a legend and is kind of synonymous with Baseball.
The top 3 also single handedly popularized their respective sport to insane degrees.
I mean, Beckham is better known for his relationship with Victoria 'Posh Spice' Adams than his soccer talent, which was never really legendary.
EDIT:
I do not care what anybody says: driving a car really fast around a track is not a sport. It's a talent, doing it competitively requires a lot of skill, and NASCAR knows how to put together a great live show, but it's not a damn sport.
The problem is, they're ultimately both really boring (and they won't fight one another which, while a respectable expression of brotherly love, ain't helping their Q rating.)
What does it take to make a "crossover" star? All the athletes people are naming in the Jordan/Ali/etc discussion were/are charismatic and exciting performers in addition to being at the top of their sport. Hell, people cared about U.S. tennis when McEnroe was cursing out umpires; now, not so much. Simply being really good at your sport will get you a following among fans, but you can't become a "household name" without having a personality that translates into other media. This is true even in the NFL (arguably the least star-driven of the major sports.)
Mayweather maybe could've managed it if he hadn't decided that wearing the black hat was a better way to market himself. MMA hasn't had a really charismatic fighter yet.
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
1) The Klitschko brothers are boring because nobody wants to be beaten by a 6'8" monster, damn the paycheck. No more famous heavyweights like young Tyson. Maybe David Haye and a handful of guys from the former SSRs. Probably because there haven't been any U.S. superstars in a while.
2) Contrasting cultural permeation of athletes vs. their own place in the sport:
The least I can say is that I'm amazed at his hand speed for a middleweight.
I've heard of the people who are actually famous. And I've heard of more who are less famous even. But when people mention Jordan or Ali, Tyson, Woods, these are all names that they drop without comment. Just, "these are my list". Of course I've heard of them.
When someone names someone and then goes on to insist that they are famous, that is when I am almost guaranteed not to know them, especially with regards to hockey, MMA, or another sport which you don't hear about outside of watching it.
Winning the Olympic Gold Medal and literally throwing it away in frustration over race relations?
"No Viet Cong ever called me a n****r"?
"Ali Bumaye"?
One of the most famous images in all of sports?
If we're talking about cultural impact (domestic or global) there's an argument to be made for Ali being the most important athlete who ever lived, bar none.
For him to be trumped in his own sport by the guy from The Hangover? There's really no rationale for that besides recency of events. We never really established where that "age cutoff" is for purposes of this discussion, but (unlike your example of Babe Ruth) the man is still alive, and there are plenty of people of intarweb age who either saw him fight or were made aware of him by the media storm that surrounded him on a regular basis.
edit: Sugar Ray may have been the most talented and respected man within his sport, but if we're still looking for "aggregate cultural penetration", it's Ali.
People who call Wlad boring are the same people who would call Royce Gracie or GSP boring. Wlad doesn't care about the KO, he cares about the W.
Anyone who calls Vitali boring is just confusing him for Wlad.
Also, Bolded for correction.
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Yeah I'd say Peyton Manning is better known than Favre. Possibly Vick and Brady as well.
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I think in the US at least Babe Ruth and Michael Jordan stand out even above Ali and Woods.
I'd also insert Pele in as a clearly dominant name in a sport. In the US, it actually became a common taunt. "Pele" is what you call someone who does something clumsy in the same way you call someone who does something dumb "Einstein."
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Michael Jordan is/was a sports and media empire unto himself, so there's not much room for debate on who the "biggest" basketball star is.
Pelé is a case of somebody who dominates sport culture in about 95% of the world, but I'd agree with the assertion that his cultural penetration strictly within the U.S. is much more limited than the other "4 biggest". Which is an interesting phenomenon itself.
Pele and Lance Armstrong. Both of those guys are on par with Jordan/Ruth/Ali/Woods.
Babe Ruth
Michael Jordan
Muhammad Ali
That's your top 3. Everyone on the planet knows them. Everyone. They are the most famous athletes of all time.
Rounding out the top 10 would be Lance Armstrong, Tiger Woods, David Beckham, Roger Federer, Yao Ming, Pele and Jackie Robinson.
Ehhh I disagree.
I know it was in context, but still. Nobody knows who Babe Ruth is in Europe. Sorry.
Edit: Also, yeah, as far as name recognition world wide goes, Pele is way above those four taken together.
I have no idea who Pele is beyond a vague recollection of hearing about him in reference to soccer, reinforced by context in this thread.
I've never heard of any of the Hockey people except Gretzky, and about 80% of the football guys I either have no idea about or sort of recognize the names but probably wouldn't have been able to say they were football players if asked. I know Peyton Manning does something in sports because he's been in the news for something, but I couldn't tell you what he plays or what he's in the news for.
The Top 4 or Top 6 or whatever I think I recognize all of, though I'm only vaguely aware of who the Williamses are in regard to tennis. I wouldn't recognize the name of a single MMA fighter. But if you want a Football guy... how is John Madden not the obvious answer? I have no idea who he played for, what position he played, when he played, or how good he was at it, but he's essentially synonymous with video game football. I know who Brett Farve is, but only because I heard about him quitting and coming back and quitting again or some such on morning talk radio a year or so ago. I'm not sure there's a person in the US who couldn't put Madden together with Football, whether they give a shit about the sport or not.
My gf knows Ali and Tyson both, Woods, Williams sisters, Beckham, Armstrong, Jordan doesn't know the rest and doesn't even know what MMA is.
She also knows at least a hundred football players, so I'm inclined to agree with you.
Not to belabor the point, but Ali's fights in Zaire and the Philippines were some of the biggest sports news of their day. Half of Kinshasa was chanting Ali's name going into that fight. He's stayed in the cultural memory of sub-Saharan Africa in particular quite a bit longer than a typical American sports star, which is part of why I pointed him out. But yeah, every country's going to have their own favorites, those few transcendent stars aside. Going by sheer numbers, Yao Ming probably ought to be in the top five, at least.
Actually, thinking about this again, I think I've changed my mind. Going by sheer numbers is probably not the best way to measure this, because it's going to massively overemphasize anyone like Yao Ming, who just happens to be really good at a really popular sport right now, but he'll probably be forgotten quickly as soon as he retires. My experience talking to Chinese people is that they really don't have much knowledge of events that happened more than 10 years ago.
Muhammed Ali deserves extra attention since he could stay famous after all this time, and in sub-Saharan Africa of all places where it's kind of hard for them to follow international sports news. Babe Ruth too, since he completely changed the way baseball is played and has stayed famous for so long, even though his fame is probably limited to just the US. Jordan and Tiger Woods are probably less noteworthy, since a huge amount of their fame is just that they're a massively successful brand to sell Nike gear.
So in terms of long lasting, general cultural impact, I think I'd pick Pele, Muhammed Ali, and Babe Ruth, even if they're not as famous right now as Messi or C. Ronaldo.
Current athletes who have done so, as a smell test:
Michael Phelps, Lebron James, Peyton Manning, Lance Armstrong, Tom Brady, Andy Roddick, Jeff Gordon, Derek Jeter
Other than Roddick, that's not bad. Gordon is a stretch, but probably wasn't when he did it (2003).
Going backwards:
Deion Sanders, George Foreman, Nancy Kerrigan (not long after that whole mess... so yeah), Charles Barkley (twice, once as a player and once for being on TNT's studio show), Michael Jordon, Chris Evert, Wayne Gretzky, Walter Payton, Joe Montana, Marvin Hagler, Bill Russell, OJ Simpson, Fran Tarkenton.
That is, again, a pretty good list, especially when they were hosting.
So I think the question this thread asks is "who can you see being invited in the future that is not among those names?"
Beckham comes to mind immediately, partly because of his wife. But that's cultural pervasiveness which is the question. Favre if he was willing to do 100,000 penis jokes. I could buy one of the Williams sisters (probably Serena).
Then, lastly, who would we not be surprised to be invited from the past if we reincarnated them or restored them to their primes?
Babe Ruth without a doubt. Muhammed Ali (and he absolutely would have hosted at some point and been great at it if it weren't for his health), Joe DiMaggio (again, married to Marilyn Monroe gets him bonus points), Jackie Robinson, John McEnroe, and I think we're done. Possibly the elder Earnhardt or Richard Petty.
Bonnie Blair
Marie Lou Retton
Kristie Yamaguchi
Greg Lougainis
Also, I have never heard of some of the people on your SNL list. (Charles Barkley, Chris Evert, Walter Payton, Marvin Hagler, Bill Russel and Fran Tarkenton)
There are also people talking about vastly different things right now in this thread. There are some people talking about cultural penetration of a person's sport prowess and other people are talking about pure name recognition. But really it is hard to separate in some cases. Lots of people cheat on their spouse's, Tiger Woods only gets into the tabloids for doing so because he is good at golf. Random men didn't get famous for marrying the other spice girls, but because Beckham was already a semi-public figure he got famous for marrying his wife.
Also, is anyone else bothered by the lack of women on all these lists? I'm not saying this as a comment on anything in this thread, more as a comment of the lack of cultural permeation of female athletes.
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Twice, I think?
Kistra, no not really. Women's sports haven't quite taken off that much. Ecco and I were talking about this last night, the list thing, and he couldn't come up with Babe Ruth without quite a bit of prodding.
He came up with beckham, Serena Williams, Tiger Woods was the first name out of his mouth. But he's a kiwi, not an american.
As far as women athletes go? Most of the names that we came up with last night were Tennis. Navritalova, sharipova, Graff, Billie Jean King, Williams sisters. I tossed in mary Lou Retten, Bonnie Blair, Pikaboo Street. So there are some names that people will recognize, but most of them are not from overall culture and more paying slight attention to sports.
Full disclosure, I remember Martina Navritalova because she was on an episode of Sesame Street when i was little.
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Just once. Ms. Monroe also married Arthur Miller, who wrote The Crucible and other things. And was a Michigan grad (woo!).
Female athletes are better known if they're hot. And are frequently better known because they're hot. See: Anna Kournikova. Which is sad, but reality.
There's a reason Tyson was in The Hangover. It's because he has the level of cultural permeation that he does. Not only was he absolutely amazing in his prime, but then obviously his...troubles...afterward just kept him in the spotlight.
Bullshit. I'd be greatly interested in knowing what, precisely, is required of an activity for it to qualify as a "sport" by your definition.
Actually, Mike Tyson has become a vegan and a pretty devout muslim. And his twitter stream is pretty awesome, full of stuff like "I bit Evander because I was undisciplined at that moment. I had nothing to lose then. I had no wife, I didn’t have my kids." and "I always had the 'glamour life' when all I wanted was serenity." and "I’m just trying to convey gratitude."
So, yeah, Tyson was pretty monstrous, but watch what you say, because it seems like he's put in a lot of effort to change.
While I was unaware of this, and it is admirable, I tend to take a very hard stance towards rapists. Personal opinion.
I'm sad that I missed this thread for a few days. For people who've said that MMA stars simply don't have the same level of recognition as guys from more mainstream fights, that was largely the sentiment expressed in the MMA thread discussion. A guy like Jon Jones has the potential to be the best MMA fighter in the history of the sport, but unless there's a huge leap forward in the widespread recognition of MMA with the UFC/Fox deal, then he stands no chance of achieving the sort of widespread cultural resonance that Jordan had. You need to be recognized by experts as one of the greatest of all time in your sport, but also have the kind of deep cultural impact that cements an athlete's legacy for decades. There's a reason that kids, who know nothing about boxing, still know that Ali was one of the greatest to this day, and it's not just because he had a movie made about him. The name Ali simply is boxing.
IMO hoping Jon Jones will be as big as Ali is a futile hope - boxing was way bigger then than MMA is now. What you would hope is that Jon Jones through his ability raises the profile of the sport to somewhere higher than it is now. For him in particular it might be tricky because he's not the most charismatic guy, nor is he that comfortable in front of a camera (though this may change in the future).
However I bet he will raise the profile of MMA, and partly because it's a self-fulfilling prophecy so to speak. UFC/Fox believe they have a star, believe they have an edge, so they promote Jon Jones and his fights aggressively - and through doing so, Jon Jones actually does become a star with wider name recognition. It can come from unexpected places too - I have a non-MMA watching friend that sometimes asks me about Tank Abbott, because Tank Abbott was on Friends that one time.
Basically what I'm saying is that Jon Jones needs to be a Jersey Shore castmember ASAP.