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State of Africa

zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
edited October 2011 in Debate and/or Discourse
Lucid wrote:
'Most of africa is a shit heap'

Your words. The ad hom on your part is predictable, but unwarranted.
And the ad hom on your part is any better?

Perhaps my hyperbole was a bit extreme, but the sentiment is true. There are not a lot of African success stories when it comes to nations. South Africa, Egypt and Morocco are really the only places that have had any real success.

zepherin on
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Posts

  • MyDcmbrMyDcmbr Registered User regular
    Africa is a continent, not a state.

    *pushes up glasses*

    Steam
    So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    MyDcmbr wrote:
    Africa is a continent, not a state.

    *pushes up glasses*
    ROFL. I have been defeated.

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Heard about this on conservative radio:Registered User regular
    ronya wrote:
    ... what happened here?

    So what has Africa done for me lately?

    easybossfight_zps4752c132.gif
  • Caveman PawsCaveman Paws Registered User regular
    MyDcmbr wrote:
    Africa is a continent, not a state.

    *pushes up glasses*

    That was the only post I would make in such a thread. So, I'm just gonna let MyDcmbr do my talking for me in here.

    *Sits back in chair, widdles some wood*

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    ... what happened here?

  • Captain CarrotCaptain Carrot Harrisonburg, VARegistered User regular
    MyDcmbr wrote:
    Africa is a continent, not a state.

    *pushes up glasses*

    That was the only post I would make in such a thread. So, I'm just gonna let MyDcmbr do my talking for me in here.

    *Sits back in chair, widdles some wood*

    I think you mean whittle.

    I hope you mean whittle.

    Anyway, in the War on Women thread, zepherin said that people in Africa should decrease their breeding, and it went downhill from there.

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Anyway, in the War on Women thread, zepherin said that people in Africa should decrease their breeding, and it went downhill from there.
    Originally I said that advances in birth control would end the abortion debate by almost eliminating unplanned pregnancies and that it would be applicable to the third world. Then various others before I said that Africa would be better off if they decreased breeding.

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    Oh, context:
    zepherin wrote: »
    I think that abortion will become a non-issue when the EPA approves RISUG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_inhibition_of_sperm_under_guidance. It will reduce accidental pregnancy to near zero, because a great many guys will get it. Hell an informal anecdotal study of all the guys I know said. Fuck yeah I'd get that shit. "10 minutes of pain from a junk shot is better than 18 years of pain from a shot from the junk." I also think that we should introduce it in mass to the third world because it will cause a major population decline, also it may cause similar in the first world, but I would rather solve a problem of too few people being made than over population. Also STD rates will likely also go up.

  • MyDcmbrMyDcmbr Registered User regular

    Anyway, in the War on Women thread, zepherin said that people in Africa should decrease their breeding, and it went downhill from there.

    Isn't most of Africa still rather tribal in structure? Where the size of one's tribe is considered a show of strength and power, making pro-creating as much as possible a very desirable thing to do?

    Steam
    So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
  • agoajagoaj Avatar avatar avatar HD Avatar of the Year EditionRegistered User regular
    If most african men are against using condoms, why would they support this method?

    5cCIDR0.png
  • rockrngerrockrnger Registered User regular
    Poor Africa.

    Resource curse, bad government, war, malaria, crappy property
    Rights, and a world to busy to care.

    Bad scene all around.

    If you could fix one problem for the most good I would say fixed property rights would have to greatest effect.

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    MyDcmbr wrote:
    Anyway, in the War on Women thread, zepherin said that people in Africa should decrease their breeding, and it went downhill from there.

    Isn't most of Africa still rather tribal in structure? Where the size of one's tribe is considered a show of strength and power, making pro-creating as much as possible a very desirable thing to do?

    Most of Africa is not arable.

    Most of populated Africa is limited to a number of relatively dense regions; by percentage of Africa's one-billion-odd people, I suspect they are organized along familiar urban-slum lines, not tribal lines.

  • [Tycho?][Tycho?] Registered User regular
    MyDcmbr wrote:
    Africa is a continent, not a state.

    *pushes up glasses*

    Ha, I got quite a kick out of this.

    ragesig.jpg

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    agoaj wrote:
    If most african men are against using condoms, why would they support this method?
    There has been wide support getting circumcisions to limit the spread of HIV, I imagine a once off procedure is more palatable than something they have to keep doing.

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited October 2011
    This doesn't limit the spread of HIV, and existing methods of (female) contraceptives using injections have accelerated its spread because these are poor countries and the temptation to reuse needles is enormous.

    ronya on
  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    zepherin wrote:
    Lucid wrote:
    'Most of africa is a shit heap'

    Your words. The ad hom on your part is predictable, but unwarranted.
    And the ad hom on your part is any better?

    Perhaps my hyperbole was a bit extreme, but the sentiment is true. There are not a lot of African success stories when it comes to nations. South Africa, Egypt and Morocco are really the only places that have had any real success.

    Ghaana, Kenya, Ethiopia to a certain extent, Zimbabwe... Hell, Tanzania is stable and has a functional government. As for failed states, the only current ones I can think of are the DR Congo, Somalia, and Libya. The first is in the middle of civil war constructed by Belgium as an act of national sabotage. The second and third were set up by Italy, which is basically a national death sentence. The first war is being fought over oil fields a precious stones, neither of which are widely consumed in Africa. The second and third are ideological conflicts. In other words, none of Africa's problems have anything to do with population size or domestic resource consumption.

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Don't forget Chad and Sudan for completely failed nations. Ghaana, Kenya, and Ethiopia are in the top twenty on the failed states index, and Zimbabwe is top ten. I suppose Kenya and Ethiopia are doing better and there is a group that is pretty firmly in charge. Ghaana is falling apart. My step dad was scheduled to start a project there and got called off because of political instability worsening.
    http://www.fundforpeace.org/global/?q=fsi-grid2011

  • CantidoCantido Registered User regular
    edited October 2011
    China is carving up Africa nicely, from what I hear. Stripping the land of all matter and energy.

    Cantido on
    steam_sig.png
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    edited October 2011
    It seems somewhat odd to start a thread in what seems at least in part because of some form of one upsmanship. Though if it's spurred a more nuanced approach to the subject at hand, then there's some positive to be had in that. Good for you in taking that step.

    Spouting ignorance until challenged doesn't seem like the most productive way to go about these things however.

    Lucid on
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Lucid wrote:
    It seems somewhat odd to start a thread in what seems at least in part because of some form of one upsmanship. Though if it's spurred a more nuanced approach to the subject at hand, then there's some positive to be had in that. Good for you in taking that step.
    I am an odd one.

  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    ronya wrote:
    MyDcmbr wrote:
    Anyway, in the War on Women thread, zepherin said that people in Africa should decrease their breeding, and it went downhill from there.

    Isn't most of Africa still rather tribal in structure? Where the size of one's tribe is considered a show of strength and power, making pro-creating as much as possible a very desirable thing to do?

    Most of Africa is not arable.

    Most of populated Africa is limited to a number of relatively dense regions; by percentage of Africa's one-billion-odd people, I suspect they are organized along familiar urban-slum lines, not tribal lines.

    Although I spent my time in rural areas, I got the implication that it's kind of like the US was when most ethnic groups could still speak the language of the old country. Towns are mixed, and residents of especially mixed ones seem to genuinely take pride in their cosmopolitan character. People of different ethnicity happily do business with each other at market (some kind of have to, traditionally, with the Maasai only recently adopting the practice of agriculture), although most businesses are single-ethnicity, which I attribute to the nature of family operations and a desire to avoid arguments over the best way to do the jobs. The Women of Phokeng, although massively out of date, seems to depict urban Africans as identifying by the rural home towns they/their families came from.

    Of course, this varies by country. Affair in Rwanda were horrible because the British alternated between placing the Tutsis and Hutus in elite positions and police departments to build tensions that would prevent the two from aligning against their colonial overlords.

  • GaryOGaryO Registered User regular
    Just to be pedantic it wasn't Britain who messed up Rwanda it was Belgium.

  • UrcbubUrcbub Registered User
    ronya wrote:
    This doesn't limit the spread of HIV, and existing methods of (female) contraceptives using injections have accelerated its spread because these are poor countries and the temptation to reuse needles is enormous.

    No, it doesn't, but African men believed it did, and they were willing to go through the (one-time) process for the outcome.

  • UrcbubUrcbub Registered User
    ronya wrote:
    MyDcmbr wrote:
    Anyway, in the War on Women thread, zepherin said that people in Africa should decrease their breeding, and it went downhill from there.

    Isn't most of Africa still rather tribal in structure? Where the size of one's tribe is considered a show of strength and power, making pro-creating as much as possible a very desirable thing to do?

    Most of Africa is not arable.

    Most of populated Africa is limited to a number of relatively dense regions; by percentage of Africa's one-billion-odd people, I suspect they are organized along familiar urban-slum lines, not tribal lines.

    A friend of mine from South Africa said that tribal sentiments are still very strong. His exact words were something like "you will see a lion bang an elephant before you see a Zulu bang a Hutu".

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    Believing that a process that doesn't limit HIV, limits HIV, is also another thing that exacerbates the spread of HIV in Africa.

  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    ronya wrote:
    Believing that a process that doesn't limit HIV, limits HIV, is also another thing that exacerbates the spread of HIV in Africa.
    To be fair circumcision does reduce the chance of receiving HIV. It is not a condom, but there is science behind that idea.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_and_HIV

  • FencingsaxFencingsax Registered User regular
    GaryO wrote:
    Just to be pedantic it wasn't Britain who messed up Rwanda it was Belgium.

    Wasn't Belgium the one who fucked up the Congo with Leopold 2?

    It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it
  • KrieghundKrieghund Registered User regular
    Are they only allowed to screw up one place?

  • KiplingKipling Registered User regular
    edited October 2011
    Look at the least stable European governments - Belgium took ages to form a government because of ethnic tensions, and the former Yugoslavia is former for a very good reason.

    Africa is collections of tribes that were drawn with no knowledge of the ground state. For Sub-Saharan Africa, that line collected different tribes and different religions together. If you take Nigeria, you have multiple different Catholic tribes, and multiple different Islamic tribes. They finally settle on alternating between, but even then, things nearly blow up when the Muslim President dies and the Catholic VP takes over, then runs in the next election.

    Instability kills economic progress. The debt ceiling fight in the U.S. absolutely stalled economic progress because businesses can't plan when the government doesn't seem sane and stable.

    Kipling on
    3DS Friends: 1693-1781-7023
  • TubularLuggageTubularLuggage Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote:
    Lucid wrote:
    'Most of africa is a shit heap'
    South Africa, Egypt and Morocco are really the only places that have had any real success.

    Botswana, at least politically.

  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    Fencingsax wrote:
    GaryO wrote:
    Just to be pedantic it wasn't Britain who messed up Rwanda it was Belgium.

    Wasn't Belgium the one who fucked up the Congo with Leopold 2?

    And ever since. They basically let Leopold take the fall and kept it up. The group the Congo government is still fighting was founded and financed by Belgium, and it is pretty widely accepted that Belgian agents abducted Patrice Lumumba.

  • UrcbubUrcbub Registered User
    zepherin wrote:
    ronya wrote:
    Believing that a process that doesn't limit HIV, limits HIV, is also another thing that exacerbates the spread of HIV in Africa.
    To be fair circumcision does reduce the chance of receiving HIV. It is not a condom, but there is science behind that idea.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumcision_and_HIV

    Absolutely ridiculous and based on completely junk science. Lets take the very first two paragraphs in the wikipedia entry (my bolding):
    Over forty epidemiological studies have been conducted to investigate the relationship between male circumcision and HIV infection.[1] Reviews of these studies have reached differing conclusions about whether circumcision could be used as a prevention method against HIV.[2][3][4][5]

    and
    Experimental evidence was needed to establish a causal relationship between lack of circumcision and HIV,[6] so three randomized controlled trials were commissioned as a means to reduce the effect of any confounding factors.[4] Trials took place in South Africa,[6] Kenya[7] and Uganda.[8] All three trials were stopped early by their monitoring boards on ethical grounds, because those in the circumcised group had a lower rate of HIV contraction than the control group.

    and then paragraph 4:
    A meta-analysis of data from fifteen observational studies of men who have sex with men found "insufficient evidence that male circumcision protects against HIV infection or other STIs.

    Instead we can compare infection rates in developed nations, adults 15-49. Lets say the mainly circumsized US and mainly uncircumsized Western/central Europe as two regions of similar population levels, living standards and economic health:

    US: 0.5%
    Europe: 0.2%
    Numbers from 2009.
    Source: http://www.unaids.org/globalreport/documents/20101123_GlobalReport_full_en.pdf.

  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    So you cherry pick some quotes from a wikipedia article and then make up a comparison from some unrelated numbers to prove your point.

    Par for the course.

    etxvv5.jpg
  • adytumadytum Registered User regular
    edited October 2011
    If you even bothered to read your cherry picked quotes, you'd realize the trials were stopped because circumcision proved to be so effective that it was unethical to continue to have a non-circumcised control group.

    Totes refuted the idea with your well though out post though, congrats.

    adytum on
    etxvv5.jpg
  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote:
    GaryO wrote:
    Just to be pedantic it wasn't Britain who messed up Rwanda it was Belgium.

    Wasn't Belgium the one who fucked up the Congo with Leopold 2?
    Rwanda too. Adam Curtis discusses it at some length in his documentary All watched over by machines of loving grace(third part).

  • BagginsesBagginses __BANNED USERS regular
    Lucid wrote:
    Fencingsax wrote:
    GaryO wrote:
    Just to be pedantic it wasn't Britain who messed up Rwanda it was Belgium.

    Wasn't Belgium the one who fucked up the Congo with Leopold 2?
    Rwanda too. Adam Curtis discusses it at some length in his documentary All watched over by machines of loving grace(third part).

    Remember: when in doubt, blame Belgium and Britain. I'm still figuring out how they were involved in Iran/Contra and the current economy, but they were. They were.

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck you must go on i cant go on ill go onRegistered User regular
    Remember: when in doubt, blame Belgium and Britain.

    To be fair, the British acquitted themselves much better than the French and Belgians in Africa.

    obF2Wuw.png
  • HacksawHacksaw J Duggan Wrestler at LawRegistered User regular
    zepherin wrote:
    Anyway, in the War on Women thread, zepherin said that people in Africa should decrease their breeding, and it went downhill from there.
    Originally I said that advances in birth control would end the abortion debate by almost eliminating unplanned pregnancies and that it would be applicable to the third world. Then various others before I said that Africa would be better off if they decreased breeding.

    The last time we tried to interfere with birth rates on other continents, it led to a nasty gender ratio imbalance. I don't think we should do it again.

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Hacksaw wrote:
    zepherin wrote:
    Anyway, in the War on Women thread, zepherin said that people in Africa should decrease their breeding, and it went downhill from there.
    Originally I said that advances in birth control would end the abortion debate by almost eliminating unplanned pregnancies and that it would be applicable to the third world. Then various others before I said that Africa would be better off if they decreased breeding.

    The last time we tried to interfere with birth rates on other continents, it led to a nasty gender ratio imbalance. I don't think we should do it again.

    Also, saying "let's reduce the birth rate" is targeting the symptom, not the cause.

    You know what the number 1 way to reduce birth rate is? Education of women. In every part of the world where female education and formal workforce participation goes up, the birth rate starts dropping. The trend accelerates with an increasing standard of living (median GDP per citizen going up, as opposed to average).

    Sure, there are things we should obviously interfere with, like trying to discredit the Catholic church's inner city efforts, but even stuff like that is irrelevant compared to the vast importance of getting people, specifically women, educated and working (for actual pay as opposed to household chores).

    The Company: The CYOA game that anybody can join at any time - running now!
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    edited October 2011
    zepherin wrote:
    Lucid wrote:
    'Most of africa is a shit heap'
    South Africa, Egypt and Morocco are really the only places that have had any real success.

    Botswana, at least politically.

    Yeah, Botswana is one of those "wait, how are you still in one piece?" mysteries. Although it is worst hit by the HIV epidemic.

    Looking at a map of population distribution in Africa today, versus a colonial map of Africa, Britain basically got all the valuable areas not on the north African coastline: the Nile and southern Africa, right up to a nontrivial amount of the Lake Victoria coastline.

    ronya on
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