games "journalism" - submit your shit to orikae already, jesus christ

chiasaur11

Blake T wrote: »

Orik if you are scrambling to publish stuff every day, have you thought about updating three times a week instead? It's less pressure and if people know when you are updating its no like you are dicking people around.

Also as thus is where writers and readers of literature and visual media live, I have a question. People were discussing in the ME thread if half life was the Citizen Kane of videogames. (I argued such a game does not exist yet).

But what I was wondering was are there equivalents in other genres? I.e. genre defining works. And if so what are they. Or say with stories, they have existed for so that you can't really give a title like that and it's only something that "new" media can do.

I think Quintin Smith hit the nail on the head with Journey of Saga.

The reason Citizen Kane is Citizen Kane?

“Citizen Kane was created in a time when cinema wasn’t necessarily stagnant, but it was certainly comfortable. In 1940 directors had no need to break rules in order to make a profit. A big reason why Citizen Kane went down in history is because it was able to stand out from its peers. Orson Welles, aside from being creative and ambitious himself, had never made a movie before. His mind wasn’t polluted by preconceptions about how things ‘should be done’. More than that, RKO Pictures gave him total control over the project. All of this came together in a time when few other people were daring to be different. But we’re getting off topic.

Videogames do not yet have this context. We’ve never had a moment where the developers and gamers all stop and take a breath, and that’s when we’ll have the opportunity to get blown away by a Citizen Kane. From their genesis in the 70s right through to this very day, videogames have thrived on forward-thinking ideas. Not only does the industry reward whoever’s prettier and whoever uses the technology of existing platforms to the best effect, but we also reward ideas and innovation. Every single videogame tries to do something different, even if it’s something small. In a market like that, where we get a dozen truly spectacularly inventive games every year, how can we possibly have your ‘atomic bomb’?"

Orikaeshigitae

Vivixenne wrote: »

So I finally read your whole review, @Orikaeshigitae.

Genuine feedback is that it's a good review that is well-written and excellently thought-out. It is insightful and it raises many questions about the way games are reviewed in general.

However, I honestly think that the spoiler-free aspect of the review actually hurt it a bit. For most of the review, I was bobbing my head along, agreeing with you almost entirely, but always with the impression that you were going to review the game in depth later in the review... and then it ended.

As in, the meat of your review actually felt more like preamble, like introduction to your point, and that you were going to back those points with specifics after that. There wasn't much of that and, on reading it through a second time, it actually feels very general.

I know that you were speaking to overall themes and avoiding spoilers, and as such the specifics of the game don't matter as much. But were I a person who didn't know you, who didn't know this site, and who didn't quite understand the philosophy of the site, I would wonder very much if you had in fact played the game at all, or if in fact you had just linked a general attitude about gaming in general to Mass Effect 3 and the vague claims made about its ability (and inability) to do certain things.

Personally, I like the "general theme" thing... but if your hope is for someone to read your review and take it on board when next they set their pen to game-designing-paper, they need to know precisely how and where Mass Effect 3 failed in the ways you are claiming it did. A stated failure by your standards might not be the same for a reader who does not know you, hence the importance of a specific example or two that illustrates and supports your point.

These are just my thoughts so take them for what they are, but I nodded so hard at the whole "race to review" point that you made that maybe it just addled my brains up a bit.

points taken. perhaps i went a little too hard on 'what this game and the outrage around it implies', but also i knew that were i to cite specifics, my being restricted to a default Shep would result in scores of folks coming along and saying 'well, you didn't play it right', a stance which i still find confusing

plus, i'm going to do a horrifically detailed breakdown in the trilogy playthrough, which i just today finished preparations for

it was also hard not to feel as if it didn't really matter if i pointed out the flaws in the game on a moment-by-moment basis, as many of the flaws i found were systemic as opposed to unique and were reproduced from earlier Bioware games in full. i've really struggled with the point of reviewing games, if not for a consumer market, and the best i can come up with is audience education or the furthering of a medium by its eventual creators, so. here you go, the review of a studio's flaws collected in one game.

that said, i wish i'd been able to get this feedback beforehand. i don't suppose you've time to help with the site?

@blake t yeah, but i don't want to

citizen kane is cited as an example because it furthered the medium of film through its experimentation, with a bold and unprecedented approach and a moving and eloquent story

suffice to say that games are nowhere near this

the canterbury tales, pamela, naked lunch, leaves of grass are all similar works off the top of my head

Blake T

Well my question wasn't exactly that though.

It wasn't, does it currently exist. That is what started my thinking. My question is, does the "seminal work" exist in other forms of media.

Orikaeshigitae

yes that is why i included a list of seminal works in other media, specifically prose and poetry given my expertise in those fields

Blake T

Oh orik answered. Thanks orik

Blake T

I have been thinking a lot about media and the differences and similarities of different forms.

It is interesting.

Melding

you should write some words about it and submit it to a site looking for content.

If only such a place existed.

Orikaeshigitae

is there a seminal engineering project, blake?

Blake T

I don't know if I could give it justice to be honest.

I feel I don't know enough and the entire thing would be a bunch a rambling disjointed thoughts. What chiasaur posted though did sum up my thoughts on the is there/could there be a seminal videogame though.

Orikaeshigitae

the differences between seminal works in related forms is much more interesting than the concept of a seminal video game, which is kind of an abused dead horse to be honest

Melding

"As long as it's interesting"

Blake T

Orikaeshigitae wrote: »

is there a seminal engineering project, blake?

This is an interesting question.

I would say no thinking offhand with a possibility of a maybe yes. I would need to think about different projects.

Blake T

Well thinking on it more.

There are buildings a projects that brought things forward. But I am unsure whether or not they brought things forward enough.

Vivixenne

Orikaeshigitae wrote: »

Vivixenne wrote: »

So I finally read your whole review, @Orikaeshigitae.

Genuine feedback is that it's a good review that is well-written and excellently thought-out. It is insightful and it raises many questions about the way games are reviewed in general.

However, I honestly think that the spoiler-free aspect of the review actually hurt it a bit. For most of the review, I was bobbing my head along, agreeing with you almost entirely, but always with the impression that you were going to review the game in depth later in the review... and then it ended.

As in, the meat of your review actually felt more like preamble, like introduction to your point, and that you were going to back those points with specifics after that. There wasn't much of that and, on reading it through a second time, it actually feels very general.

I know that you were speaking to overall themes and avoiding spoilers, and as such the specifics of the game don't matter as much. But were I a person who didn't know you, who didn't know this site, and who didn't quite understand the philosophy of the site, I would wonder very much if you had in fact played the game at all, or if in fact you had just linked a general attitude about gaming in general to Mass Effect 3 and the vague claims made about its ability (and inability) to do certain things.

Personally, I like the "general theme" thing... but if your hope is for someone to read your review and take it on board when next they set their pen to game-designing-paper, they need to know precisely how and where Mass Effect 3 failed in the ways you are claiming it did. A stated failure by your standards might not be the same for a reader who does not know you, hence the importance of a specific example or two that illustrates and supports your point.

These are just my thoughts so take them for what they are, but I nodded so hard at the whole "race to review" point that you made that maybe it just addled my brains up a bit.

points taken. perhaps i went a little too hard on 'what this game and the outrage around it implies', but also i knew that were i to cite specifics, my being restricted to a default Shep would result in scores of folks coming along and saying 'well, you didn't play it right', a stance which i still find confusing

plus, i'm going to do a horrifically detailed breakdown in the trilogy playthrough, which i just today finished preparations for

it was also hard not to feel as if it didn't really matter if i pointed out the flaws in the game on a moment-by-moment basis, as many of the flaws i found were systemic as opposed to unique and were reproduced from earlier Bioware games in full. i've really struggled with the point of reviewing games, if not for a consumer market, and the best i can come up with is audience education or the furthering of a medium by its eventual creators, so. here you go, the review of a studio's flaws collected in one game.

that said, i wish i'd been able to get this feedback beforehand. i don't suppose you've time to help with the site?

I wasn't talking about moment-to-moment flaws, but more in-game examples of what you are talking about. The things it does well were x, y, and z, which are present through the whole game, but was most obvious to me during <SCENE>. Same thing with downfalls.

You will always run into the "you're not DOING it right" problem, but I think if you chose your examples well, it satisfies the "locking down" of your claims without becoming too minute or isolated in experience. I mean, if you picked an example that would only be seen in the game if you had a very specific Shepard career, then it's not the best example. But if a game is really doing, routinely, the good/bad things you claim it is doing, it isn't too hard to go "for example, when you arrive on <location> for the first time, you see/hear/notice etc etc."

I'd love to help with the site more, I really, REALLY would... but honestly all my free time is going into decompressing the stress from my current job, and volleyball season is starting up again which means even LESS time. Ugh I feel like I'm making excuses but honestly, I only got round to reading your review because I had a light day at work today and could sit down and DO it.

So I can contribute when I have some spare time, but beyond that I wouldn't be the best regular contributor, either as a feedbacker or a writer.

Stilts

You're scrambling for content huh?

Then maybe I should do the complete rewrite of an old blog post I did about FFX-2 and identity crises that I've been procrastinating on for, like, four months.

People probably don't give a shit about FFX-2 anymore, but hey, it'll be an article.

Antimatter

i pretty much exhausted all the original content i have in my body re: video games with that transformers paper

i am horrible at video games and it's not like i know of any other niche/relevant things to write about

i am glad that you ARE able to get by day to day, @Orikaeshigitae , i love reading medium difficulty

Vivixenne

I DID write up a bit of a rant about smashing NDAs in a totally self-serving effort to position oneself as an expert or an insider when, in fact, you are NOT one

but I ditched it because it was too bitchy... if I reflect on it a bit more I might be able to turn out something a bit more fleshed out and fair

I honestly can't think of a regular contribution that I COULD make (and the mental health column just reminded me too much of work so I put it aside), but if I do come up with something I'll submit it and see what y'all think

LockedOnTarget

So Orik, say I was going to try my hand at a Xenoblade review.

I know enough from reading the things on the site, and your own posts, that the sort of "typical" game review isn't really what you are looking for. I can certainly understand that.

So with in mind, is there any advice you have for how I should approach talking about the game? trying to wrap my head around what I'd like to do.

Also, I've been musing over a different article idea. Basically, a look at how choice in games can be meaningful to the player due to the choice and not the result/consequence of the choice. Not intended to be a ME article, if that's what it sounds like. Does that sound like a solid topic to you?

Blake T

Maybe. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equitable_Life_Building_(New_York_City)

This is not strictly structurally a seminal project. But it redifined how people use buildings.

It's the first building to have an elavator installed. Before elavators were around upper level offices and penthouse apartments were not considered luxury. As people did not want to walk up the stairs. Therefore, the upper stories were less expensive so as the building went higher, the value of the upper floors decreased so there was less reason to push towards the sky.

The lifts changed all that and made the upper levels desirable.

Blake T

It was an interesting question to think about though orik so thankyou.

Orikaeshigitae

thank you for taking it seriously! it's a fascinating answer

Orikaeshigitae

LockedOnTarget wrote: »

So Orik, say I was going to try my hand at a Xenoblade review.

I know enough from reading the things on the site, and your own posts, that the sort of "typical" game review isn't really what you are looking for. I can certainly understand that.

So with in mind, is there any advice you have for how I should approach talking about the game? trying to wrap my head around what I'd like to do.

Also, I've been musing over a different article idea. Basically, a look at how choice in games can be meaningful to the player due to the choice and not the result/consequence of the choice. Not intended to be a ME article, if that's what it sounds like. Does that sound like a solid topic to you?

be interesting, be critical, be consistent and have a throughline that your article follows

Orikaeshigitae

as to the second it sounds a lot like quoth's piece on heavy rain

chiasaur11

Going to agree with Orik, Blake.

It's something I never thought about before, but it's a solid answer.

T4CT

Stilts wrote: »

You're scrambling for content huh?

Then maybe I should do the complete rewrite of an old blog post I did about FFX-2 and identity crises that I've been procrastinating on for, like, four months.

People probably don't give a shit about FFX-2 anymore, but hey, it'll be an article.

let's talk about some cutscene issues in FFXIII-2

let's talk about why post-playing FFXIII-2 I feel like I'm going to be of the opinion that I had more fun watching what my roommate played than actually playing it myself.

Orikaeshigitae

let's talk about the ludicrous idea of playing a final fantasy game in 2012

Dee Kae

What about fantasy football games like sum o' dat sweet sweet bloodbowl?

LockedOnTarget

Orikaeshigitae wrote: »

as to the second it sounds a lot like quoth's piece on heavy rain

Love that article, not really what I was thinking of.

I was thinking more about looking at situations where, say, multiple dialogue options do not have the same number of responses, or when a choice on what to do doesn't end up with particularily different results. I often see games with choice get slammed when the choices lead to the same or similar conclusions, where people say that it means the choice was ultimately pointless or meaningless. The article would be on why I believe these options still have meaning, and how a choice that seems superficial can still influence the narrative and engage the player.

T4CT

Orikaeshigitae wrote: »

let's talk about the ludicrous idea of playing a final fantasy game in 2012

do you want this article?

if anyone is the one to write this article it's me

japan is dead, R.I.P

Blake T

Thanks guys. There are probably several technical ones as well, but the ones I could think of seem a bit dry and I'm not sure if they truly pushed the envelope or just fixed a few really specific problems.

Blake T

And post tensioned concrete was a Big Step Forward. But again the theory of it had been around for years but it just didn't have material strengths for it to be truly useful.

So it was the seminal building 60 years late.

Which to be fair is an interesting idea in itself.

LockedOnTarget

I haven't played it myself yet but the general impression I've gotten from people's reactions to FFXIII-2 is that it's surprisingly good.

But honestly we still get some pretty swell JRPGs, they just aren't really from Square anymore.

Antimatter

Orikaeshigitae wrote: »

let's talk about the ludicrous idea of playing a final fantasy game in 2012

gimme a kiss

Orikaeshigitae

LockedOnTarget wrote: »

Orikaeshigitae wrote: »

as to the second it sounds a lot like quoth's piece on heavy rain

Love that article, not really what I was thinking of.

I was thinking more about looking at situations where, say, multiple dialogue options do not have the same number of responses, or when a choice on what to do doesn't end up with particularily different results. I often see games with choice get slammed when the choices lead to the same or similar conclusions, where people say that it means the choice was ultimately pointless or meaningless. The article would be on why I believe these options still have meaning, and how a choice that seems superficial can still influence the narrative and engage the player.

do you have any specific examples?

T4CT

LockedOnTarget wrote: »

I haven't played it myself yet but the general impression I've gotten from people's reactions to FFXIII-2 is that it's surprisingly good.

But honestly we still get some pretty swell JRPGs, they just aren't really from Square anymore.

those people are dumb and i hate them all no exceptions

Shorty

chiasaur11 wrote: »

Blake T wrote: »

Orik if you are scrambling to publish stuff every day, have you thought about updating three times a week instead? It's less pressure and if people know when you are updating its no like you are dicking people around.

Also as thus is where writers and readers of literature and visual media live, I have a question. People were discussing in the ME thread if half life was the Citizen Kane of videogames. (I argued such a game does not exist yet).

But what I was wondering was are there equivalents in other genres? I.e. genre defining works. And if so what are they. Or say with stories, they have existed for so that you can't really give a title like that and it's only something that "new" media can do.

I think Quintin Smith hit the nail on the head with Journey of Saga.

The reason Citizen Kane is Citizen Kane?

“Citizen Kane was created in a time when cinema wasn’t necessarily stagnant, but it was certainly comfortable. In 1940 directors had no need to break rules in order to make a profit. A big reason why Citizen Kane went down in history is because it was able to stand out from its peers. Orson Welles, aside from being creative and ambitious himself, had never made a movie before. His mind wasn’t polluted by preconceptions about how things ‘should be done’. More than that, RKO Pictures gave him total control over the project. All of this came together in a time when few other people were daring to be different. But we’re getting off topic.

Videogames do not yet have this context. We’ve never had a moment where the developers and gamers all stop and take a breath, and that’s when we’ll have the opportunity to get blown away by a Citizen Kane. From their genesis in the 70s right through to this very day, videogames have thrived on forward-thinking ideas. Not only does the industry reward whoever’s prettier and whoever uses the technology of existing platforms to the best effect, but we also reward ideas and innovation. Every single videogame tries to do something different, even if it’s something small. In a market like that, where we get a dozen truly spectacularly inventive games every year, how can we possibly have your ‘atomic bomb’?"

this is why whenever some clueless journo tries to make the case that some game or another is the Citizen Kane of games, I just laugh

Vivixenne

I should really watch Citizen Kane

then I would know what it means for something to be the "Citizen Kane" of something

Antimatter

citizen kane is wonderful

King Riptor

T4CT wrote: »

Orikaeshigitae wrote: »

let's talk about the ludicrous idea of playing a final fantasy game in 2012

do you want this article?

if anyone is the one to write this article it's me

japan is dead, R.I.P

I disagree.

Square certianly has no fucking clue what it's doing. But Japan isn't dead. Confused maybe.

I mean look at the videos and read the dev blogs for Dragon's dogma for example . Capcom is attempting things. Crazy things.

I mean sure on the flipside there's dmc but I'm willing to totally ignore that.

Blake T

Man, I don't know.

The last Japanese game Vivienne and I played was Bayonetta.