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OWS - Finger-Wiggling Their Way To a Better Tomorrow

ElJeffeElJeffe Super Moderator, Moderator, ClubPA mod
edited November 2011 in Debate and/or Discourse
This is the OWS thread. If someone would like to make a better OP than this they may write one up and I'll C&P it in here.

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Posts

  • NorthNorth Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    Here's a long article about the retired police chief who was arrested and a pre arrest interview with him.

    And a lobbying firm approaching a banking association about undermining the occupy movement. Isn't that special.

    North on
  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    I found this video today and I think it expresses well something about Occupy that I agree deeply with. And IMHO, its not just empty rhetoric, expressing concern with the direction society is headed is an act of love. I know I felt moved to act and give without expecting in return because when Occupy came along, all I could think of at first was about the kind of world my daughter was going to grow up in. This movement trying to address wealth and political inequality really does benefit those with great wealth as well.

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  • Slacker1913Slacker1913 Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    An here is the latest in the long line of rage-rising clips.


    Honestly, the cops are just incredibly nonchalant with that pepper spray.

    Edit to add picture:
    0UoEz.jpg

    Slacker1913 on
  • VanguardVanguard The system was breaking down. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I literally yelled what the fuck when I watched that.

  • Lord_SnotLord_Snot Registered User regular
    What the fuck? That is seriously scummy behaviour. Disgusting.

    What is it with the police? Especially in California, it seems.

  • VanguardVanguard The system was breaking down. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2011
    Seattle is pretty bad too.
    
    

    There needs to be a coordinated effort to hold these people accountable.

    Vanguard on
  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    If I was at that scene at US Davis, I probably would've bull-rushed that officer to take that fucking canister away from him.

    I probably would've been beaten for it, but somebody needs to fight back when the police step over the line.

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  • VanguardVanguard The system was breaking down. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited November 2011
    It was posted already.

    Maybe all these cops secretly want this movement to succeed, which is why they're using excessive force.

    Vanguard on
  • HenroidHenroid Nobody Nowhere fastRegistered User regular
    Vanguard wrote:
    It was posted already.

    Maybe all these cops secretly want this movement to succeed, which is why they're using excessive force.

    "It's okay guys we're undercover so that's why we're doing such heinous shit." No I doubt it.

    "Ultima Online Pre-Trammel is the perfect example of why libertarians are full of shit."
    - @Ludious
    PA Lets Play Archive - Twitter - Blog (6/15/14)
  • peterdevorepeterdevore Registered User regular
    David Harvey is a boss:

  • VanguardVanguard The system was breaking down. Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    I was being facetious. However, their abuse of power has given us so much media exposure we should send the police departments a thank you card.

  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Some days I just want to smack people with a rolled up newspaper. Or a phone book.
    A folding chair is looking like an attractive option right now too...
  • hippofanthippofant Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    Watching that UC Davis video makes me wonder how stupid cops really are. Some 20-something cops decide to brazenly walk into a huge crowd of at least hundreds of university students, aggressively pepper-spray them, and then realise that they're completely outnumbered and surrounded by what is slowly turning into an angry mob. Takes a while, but eventually the crowd starts moving in on the cops, who now have to start withdrawing in a close formation before withdrawing from the quad area entirely.

    So final tally? A handful of university non-violent university students pepper-sprayed and arrested, a large student body enraged and energized by a "victory" over the police, likely ready and eager to re-engage the police forces again at the next opportunity. Oh, and by the way, there's still a mob on the quad, only now they're angry.

    Or if we consider the long-term impacts, enraging mostly young, upwards of middle-class, intelligent, highly educated adults - the same sort of people who will likely make up the majority of the business and political establishment in in a couple of decades - and drastically eroding their respect for the police. I really do wonder how crime and arrest rates will change over the next few years, with so many young adults rapidly being taught to disrespect and mistrust the police.

    hippofant on
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    To be fair, this is a bad situation that the police have been setting up for themselves for generations. You just typically get a different outcome when the police brazenly disregard the rights of a lone citizen, and thus the police thought they had nothing to fear.

    I can say that even though I work for the government, the only time the police have ever helped me is when I identified as such, and even then they have a spotty record in the "being an asshole" column.

    This is a culture they have developed themselves, and I for one have no sorrow at whatever might befall them.

    Some days I just want to smack people with a rolled up newspaper. Or a phone book.
    A folding chair is looking like an attractive option right now too...
  • Salvation122Salvation122 Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    At some point these fuckers are going to start an honest-to-god riot and get people killed.

    Clarity edit: the cops, not the protesters.

    Salvation122 on
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  • hippofanthippofant Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    At some point these fuckers are going to start an honest-to-god riot and get people killed.

    Clarity edit: the cops, not the protesters.

    I was actually getting worried for a while until the "You can go" chant started up. While the cops weren't entirely surrounded ....

    hippofant on
  • peterdevorepeterdevore Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    I was confused about them using "You can go" as a chant but I guess it makes sense, being the politest form of 'GTFO' and as a phrase that is used so often only by people in a dominant position that it carries about as much psychological weight as you can get in a chant. Or am I understanding it completely wrong?

    peterdevore on
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Sounds about right to me.

    Some days I just want to smack people with a rolled up newspaper. Or a phone book.
    A folding chair is looking like an attractive option right now too...
  • Fallout2manFallout2man Registered User regular
    At some point these fuckers are going to start an honest-to-god riot and get people killed.

    Clarity edit: the cops, not the protesters.

    That's actually probably exactly what they want. If they can start a violent riot the media can discredit the protests and then they and the national guard possibly get to open fire with REAL bullets. The Cops want this shit to end, right now, what or how they have to do to end it is irrelevant. Their asses are pressed to the wall by whoever orders them and so all they can do is use force after a certain point.

    They will be offered ad an effective choice of "Start killing protestors, or your family won't eat" and it's being used to drive them to do this. It's sad, but it's what this current system is forcing them to do.

    P.S. you never responded to me before Re: The Fed. You can't claim you told me and then disappear in the middle of a conversation as if it means you win. :D

    On Ignorance:
    Kana wrote:
    If the best you can come up with against someone who's patently ignorant is to yell back at him, "Yeah? Well there's BOOKS, and they say you're WRONG!"

    Then honestly you're not coming out of this looking great either.
  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    The reason why police are nonchalant with pepper spray is liability. Generally actual damages are what you can prove the damages were, and pain and suffering are usually based on actual damages. If you hit a person with a club, they go to the hospital (even with just bruises) wrack up a 10k bill for cracked ribs, and take a week off work. The police are looking at 12k in actual damages and 36k in punitive damages. With 100 protestors beat up that's millions of dollars in probable liability, Pepper spray on the other hand is likely going to be hundreds of dollars in actual damages, maybe a day off work and so the police are looking at thousands of dollars in liability.

  • override367override367 misogynist/MRA/socially irresponsible Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    At some point these fuckers are going to start an honest-to-god riot and get people killed.

    Clarity edit: the cops, not the protesters.

    That's actually probably exactly what they want. If they can start a violent riot the media can discredit the protests and then they and the national guard possibly get to open fire with REAL bullets. The Cops want this shit to end, right now, what or how they have to do to end it is irrelevant. Their asses are pressed to the wall by whoever orders them and so all they can do is use force after a certain point.

    They will be offered ad an effective choice of "Start killing protestors, or your family won't eat" and it's being used to drive them to do this. It's sad, but it's what this current system is forcing them to do.

    P.S. you never responded to me before Re: The Fed. You can't claim you told me and then disappear in the middle of a conversation as if it means you win. :D

    I don't see a violent riot discrediting the protesters, we have enough non MSM sources where the first time we see a (cute, white) woman with a crushed skull beaten to death by police, some news agency will pick it up for the ratings

    override367 on
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  • LochielLochiel Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    An here is the latest in the long line of rage-rising clips.
    Spoiler:

    Honestly, the cops are just incredibly nonchalant with that pepper spray.

    The reason I believe limited, selective violence is necessary to bring about OWS's goals of change was because I think that the people in power can just ignore non-violent protests.

    What happened at the 6min mark in that video gives me hope that I am wrong. It is very amazing to see a leaderless group like that working in concert.

    Lochiel on
  • gtrmpgtrmp Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote:
    The reason why police are nonchalant with pepper spray is liability. Generally actual damages are what you can prove the damages were, and pain and suffering are usually based on actual damages. If you hit a person with a club, they go to the hospital (even with just bruises) wrack up a 10k bill for cracked ribs, and take a week off work. The police are looking at 12k in actual damages and 36k in punitive damages. With 100 protestors beat up that's millions of dollars in probable liability, Pepper spray on the other hand is likely going to be hundreds of dollars in actual damages, maybe a day off work and so the police are looking at thousands of dollars in liability.

    The cops are generally using pepper spray in addition to batons, not instead of them.

  • CanadianWolverineCanadianWolverine Registered User regular
    Lochiel wrote:
    An here is the latest in the long line of rage-rising clips.
    Spoiler:

    Honestly, the cops are just incredibly nonchalant with that pepper spray.

    The reason I believe limited, selective violence is necessary to bring about OWS's goals of change was because I think that the people in power can just ignore non-violent protests.

    What happened at the 6min mark in that video gives me hope that I am wrong. It is very amazing to see a leaderless group like that working in concert.

    Holy shit. Seriously, watch at around the 6:00 mark as Lochiel says, that People's Mic Check is what turned that into a peaceful situation, it turned all that rage into a thunderous voice, you could see the asshole who hosed those people with pepper spray, the look on his face said it all. People's Mic Check just might be one of the most amazing things to come out of Occupy, on the ground level. Its unlike anything I have seen in protest before, yet it is something that it wouldn't surprise me to learn is as old as people rallying together.

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  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    Lord_Snot wrote:
    What the fuck? That is seriously scummy behaviour. Disgusting.

    Someone called them in to clear the walkway; they're doing their job.

    I am wondering why, of all places, are these students are at Davis. Oakland, Fairfield, Suisin - etc. - are all within an hours drive and probably more reflective of what ( I assume) this Occupy movement views as the result of "corporate greed".

    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    Holy shit.

    PSN: allenquid
  • Lord_SnotLord_Snot Registered User regular
    ED! wrote:
    Lord_Snot wrote:
    What the fuck? That is seriously scummy behaviour. Disgusting.

    Someone called them in to clear the walkway; they're doing their job.

    I am wondering why, of all places, are these students are at Davis. Oakland, Fairfield, Suisin - etc. - are all within an hours drive and probably more reflective of what ( I assume) this Occupy movement views as the result of "corporate greed".

    Are you seriously saying that the best way to clear a walkway is to pepper spray peaceful protesters who are sitting on the ground not threatening anyone? You don't think they could be moved through non-violent means?

  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    One article I read said that one of the protesters was still coughing up blood 45 minutes later.

    Some days I just want to smack people with a rolled up newspaper. Or a phone book.
    A folding chair is looking like an attractive option right now too...
  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    Lord_Snot wrote:
    ED! wrote:
    Lord_Snot wrote:
    What the fuck? That is seriously scummy behaviour. Disgusting.

    Someone called them in to clear the walkway; they're doing their job.

    I am wondering why, of all places, are these students are at Davis. Oakland, Fairfield, Suisin - etc. - are all within an hours drive and probably more reflective of what ( I assume) this Occupy movement views as the result of "corporate greed".

    Are you seriously saying that the best way to clear a walkway is to pepper spray peaceful protesters who are sitting on the ground not threatening anyone? You don't think they could be moved through non-violent means?

    It' not about "not threatening anyone. . ." If you have a simple table, handing out nutrition information (which I think most people will agree is some pretty solid info), and you're blocking the sidewalk (or worse, the handicap railing on the ground) - you will be ordered to move. Period.

    There is ZERO context in the video to show where the protest is happening on campus property, or what pre-commands were given to disperse (if they were even told to disperse). Just a shot of a cop nonchalantly spraying helpless students.
    One article I read said that one of the protesters was still coughing up blood 45 minutes later.

    If this is true, then that student needs to make sure they can be identified in this video, head to the hospital and file a nice complaint with the Reagents (with possibility of legal action).

    ED! on
    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Just... Just, the worstRegistered User regular
    The cops say they gave numerous orders to move and told the students that force would be used if they refused and I believe them.

    That does not give the cops the right to use said force.

    It's like if you're holding your finger very close to my face and you say, "I'm not touching you," so I say, "I'm going to shoot pepper spray down your throat if you keep doing that." It's excessive force and whether or not the protestors were told they'd be the recipients of excessive force, the fact remains that it was excessive.

    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I get by on the knowledge that I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time mucking about inside of my asshole anyway
  • hippofanthippofant Registered User regular
    ED! wrote:
    Lord_Snot wrote:
    What the fuck? That is seriously scummy behaviour. Disgusting.

    Someone called them in to clear the walkway; they're doing their job.

    I am wondering why, of all places, are these students are at Davis. Oakland, Fairfield, Suisin - etc. - are all within an hours drive and probably more reflective of what ( I assume) this Occupy movement views as the result of "corporate greed".

    If their job was to clear the walkway, they failed miserably, because the huge crowd of students and protestors cleared them from the walkway shortly after.

  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    So after verbal commands, what's the next step; or is it the belief that at some point the students would have agreed with campus police and said "Yanno what, we DO have to take this somewhere else."
    If their job was to clear the walkway, they failed miserably, because the huge crowd of students and protestors cleared them from the walkway shortly after.

    And there was much high fiving at a job well done - a job done in service to what. . .who knows. Certainly not going to get that from the video description.

    ED! on
    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Just... Just, the worstRegistered User regular
    By the way, there is plenty of space to move around these people on either side. The video clearly shows it. So a better thing to do, since no laws were being broken other than "OBEY YOUR OVERLORDS", would have been to just hang out, watch the protests and make sure nobody got hurt in a heated argument or something. Or maybe if they saw an actual law being broken, they could write a ticket.

    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I get by on the knowledge that I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time mucking about inside of my asshole anyway
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Just... Just, the worstRegistered User regular
    ED! wrote:
    So after verbal commands, what's the next step; or is it the belief that at some point the students would have agreed with campus police and said "Yanno what, we DO have to take this somewhere else."

    The police don't have the authority to issue commands to citizens to stop doing something that isn't against the law, and even if they did, pepper spray down the throat is never a fucking appropriate thing to do even if they were breaking the law and I don't know why you're being so thick about this

    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I get by on the knowledge that I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time mucking about inside of my asshole anyway
  • QuidQuid The Fifth Horseman Registered User regular
    I have to say, my general suggestion would be "Walk around until we convince them to move."

    Cause I'm not otherwise seeing the necessity.

    PSN: allenquid
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    There's going to be a task force to investigate! In 90 days!

    Lose: to suffer defeat, to misplace (Ex: "I hope I don't lose the match." "Did you lose your phone again?")
    Loose: about to slip, to release (Ex: "That knot is loose." "Loose arrows.")
  • ED!ED! Registered User regular
    edited November 2011
    By the way, there is plenty of space to move around these people on either side. The video clearly shows it. So a better thing to do, since no laws were being broken other than "OBEY YOUR OVERLORDS", would have been to just hang out, watch the protests and make sure nobody got hurt in a heated argument or something. Or maybe if they saw an actual law being broken, they could write a ticket.

    I have no idea what campus policy on occupying space is at UCD - do you? Somewhere, someone decided that these students shouldn't be there, and the right folks were sent out to address this. Had they been on our campus, NO, simply sitting there is not cool and yes they would have been moved had they impeded access to the handicap assistance groves that are on the ground. This is not to say that THAT is the situation depicted here, but arm-chair dismissing ANY response by police other than "fuck it. . ." is just ridiculous.
    pepper spray down the throat is never a fucking appropriate thing to do even if they were breaking the law and I don't know why you're being so thick about this

    Oh. Well of course it's not. We're all just being thick numbskulls who just can't believe in the power of the protester to obey a command while not on public property.

    ED! on
    "Get the hell out of me" - [ex]girlfriend
  • joshofalltradesjoshofalltrades Just... Just, the worstRegistered User regular
    Until every police department in this country has an independent, civilian-run review board and it is illegal for employees of said review board to accept gifts from the police, things are just going to get worse.

    Seriously, get rid of Internal Affairs. Why are we letting the cops investigate the cops?

    ElJeffe wrote: »
    I get by on the knowledge that I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time mucking about inside of my asshole anyway
  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    What's amazing is that after all that, the cops were forced to give up ALL the ground. They accomplished NOTHING. They failed to clear the walkway, and were forced entirely out of the area. Peacefully.

    That cop, and his superiors all the way up the chain, need to have criminal charges brought against them. You are NOT authorized to use pepper spray against a peaceful gathering. If you feel that someone has broken a law, your job as a police officer is to apprehend that person so that charges can be brought against them in a court of law. What I saw in that video was an officer handing out punishment, and punishment is the sole discretion of the judiciary. He needs to be stripped of his badge immediately, as he has absolutely no understanding of his boundaries or role in society.

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