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OWS - Finger-Wiggling Their Way To a Better Tomorrow

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Posts

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Sticks wrote: »
    No one who is thinking very hard about it, but the message did leak out. Part of the problem with not having a clear and concise message last fall I suppose. I know at least one person who falls into that category that felt lumped in with the 1% by wealth.

    When I made the post I quoted above earlier in this thread, the idea of distinguishing between the 1% by income and wealth was very controversial, and lead to pages of discussion. Also, most articles I have seen in the popular media on the 1% talked about income levels needed to break in, not wealth. If OWS meant wealth (which is what they should be complaining about in my opinion) then they need to make that clear, even if only to fight the perception of their message created by NYTimes articles on the 1%.

    Incidentally, I am on board with changes aimed at wealth inequality but feel very strongly that we should not be demonizing people with incomes in the lie to mid 6 figures, so I am exactly the kind of person who OWS could get more support from if they clarified this, and I suspect a lot of my peers feel the same way.

    7zh9uu9etcor.jpg
    Chanus wrote:
    It's been a butt come true! I get to work with the absolute best boobs in the business. What more could a money ask for? Kids, aim for the freeloaders !
  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    Not sure if I was entirely clear. I was getting at the top 1% of wage earners vs top 1% of people whose income comes primarily from wealth. I think you are saying the same thing, but 1% by income is somewhat ambiguous. Those with the most wealth probably have the largest income from that wealth after all.

  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    Sticks wrote: »
    Not sure if I was entirely clear. I was getting at the top 1% of wage earners vs top 1% of people whose income comes primarily from wealth. I think you are saying the same thing, but 1% by income is somewhat ambiguous. Those with the most wealth probably have the largest income from that wealth after all.

    Well, yeah. If you're making mid six figures in capital gains income, you're pretty wealthy.

    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Isn't that the whole point? If I remember those lovely graphs that were floating around at the time, in order to break into the 1% you had to be making at least a million a year. Can't be too many people doing that on wages.

    Sticks on
  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    I don't know what graph you're referring to. :(

    IIRC, The top 1% of income is around $300,000. The top 1% of wealth is around $19,000,000

    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    Hmm, probably just got the numbers mixed up in my head. Ignore me.

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't know what graph you're referring to. :(

    IIRC, The top 1% of income is around $300,000. The top 1% of wealth is around $19,000,000

    Those sound right. It is extrodinarily hard to get into the top 1% of wealth, while many people do make it into the top 1% of income through a mix of good luck and hard work. If someone is in the top 1% of income solely because of interest or other gains on their wealth, then they will most likely be in the top 1% by wealth, so focusing on wealth instead of income should not let any of the people of concern off the hook.

    7zh9uu9etcor.jpg
    Chanus wrote:
    It's been a butt come true! I get to work with the absolute best boobs in the business. What more could a money ask for? Kids, aim for the freeloaders !
  • HounHoun Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't know what graph you're referring to. :(

    IIRC, The top 1% of income is around $300,000. The top 1% of wealth is around $19,000,000

    Those sound right. It is extrodinarily hard to get into the top 1% of wealth, while many people do make it into the top 1% of income through a mix of good luck and hard work. If someone is in the top 1% of income solely because of interest or other gains on their wealth, then they will most likely be in the top 1% by wealth, so focusing on wealth instead of income should not let any of the people of concern off the hook.

    Math Question: by it's very nature, can you really say that "many" make it into the top 1%? Isn't the top 1% like, I dunno, 1/100th of whatever total population you want to draw from?

    Houn on
    Steam: DigitalArcanist | PSN: DigitalArcanist | NNID: DigitalArcanist | Backloggery: Houn
  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Houn wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't know what graph you're referring to. :(

    IIRC, The top 1% of income is around $300,000. The top 1% of wealth is around $19,000,000

    Those sound right. It is extrodinarily hard to get into the top 1% of wealth, while many people do make it into the top 1% of income through a mix of good luck and hard work. If someone is in the top 1% of income solely because of interest or other gains on their wealth, then they will most likely be in the top 1% by wealth, so focusing on wealth instead of income should not let any of the people of concern off the hook.

    Math Question: by it's very nature, can you really say that "many" make it into the top 1%? Isn't the top 1% like, I dunno, 1/100th of whatever total population you want to draw from?

    I was gonna say. By definition, they're both pretty tough.

  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    Assuming you have more than 100 to draw from, yes. You can speak about how "many" of the 31 million people that comprise 1% of the population got into that situation.

  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Sticks wrote: »
    Assuming you have more than 100 to draw from, yes. You can speak about how "many" of the 31 million people that comprise 1% of the population got into that situation.

    3.1 million. 31 million would be 10% (which is $145K in income or $4 mil in net wealth, so still pretty good).

    a5ehren on
  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    I don't really have a problem with using the word "many" to describe a set containing a few million people.

    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
  • VanguardVanguard the champion of i-don't-give-a-fuck what tremendously unlikableRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2012
    Can we talk about more productive stuff in here than what constitutes the use of the word many?

    Like, how last night, during The Million Hoodie demonstration, the NYPD shut down the L trains in the Union Square station due to a suspicious package, but ignored strap hangers questions about what to do?

    Or how, this morning, there was no mention of the "suspicious package" by any major news outlets?

    Or why the 4, 5, and 6 trains were allowed to continue operating during this period of lockdown?

    Or how protesters were told they couldn't hold a banner in Union Square because it was too large?

    Vanguard on
  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    Woops, that's why I use computers to do math for me instead of doing the calculations in my head.

  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    Houn wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't know what graph you're referring to. :(

    IIRC, The top 1% of income is around $300,000. The top 1% of wealth is around $19,000,000

    Those sound right. It is extrodinarily hard to get into the top 1% of wealth, while many people do make it into the top 1% of income through a mix of good luck and hard work. If someone is in the top 1% of income solely because of interest or other gains on their wealth, then they will most likely be in the top 1% by wealth, so focusing on wealth instead of income should not let any of the people of concern off the hook.

    Math Question: by it's very nature, can you really say that "many" make it into the top 1%? Isn't the top 1% like, I dunno, 1/100th of whatever total population you want to draw from?

    Well, that's around three million people nationwide. I think that counts as 'many'! Of course, your intention was to launch a passive-aggressive attack, not to ask a math question. Mission Accomplished!

    Ooh, geometry question! You can ask me why I'm suggesting those three million people are arranged in a circle.

  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    Houn wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't know what graph you're referring to. :(

    IIRC, The top 1% of income is around $300,000. The top 1% of wealth is around $19,000,000

    Those sound right. It is extrodinarily hard to get into the top 1% of wealth, while many people do make it into the top 1% of income through a mix of good luck and hard work. If someone is in the top 1% of income solely because of interest or other gains on their wealth, then they will most likely be in the top 1% by wealth, so focusing on wealth instead of income should not let any of the people of concern off the hook.

    Math Question: by it's very nature, can you really say that "many" make it into the top 1%? Isn't the top 1% like, I dunno, 1/100th of whatever total population you want to draw from?

    Well, that's around three million people nationwide. I think that counts as 'many'! Of course, your intention was to launch a passive-aggressive attack, not to ask a math question. Mission Accomplished!

    Ooh, geometry question! You can ask me why I'm suggesting those three million people are arranged in a circle.

    Is it because they are making an infinite conga line?

  • spacekungfumanspacekungfuman Poor and minority-filled Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Can we talk about more productive stuff in here than what constitutes the use of the word many?

    Like, how last night, during The Million Hoodie demonstration, the NYPD shut down the L trains in the Union Square station due to a suspicious package, but ignored strap hangers questions about what to do?

    Or how, this morning, there was no mention of the "suspicious package" by any major news outlets?

    Or why the 4, 5, and 6 trains were allowed to continue operating during this period of lockdown?

    Or how protesters were told they couldn't hold a banner in Union Square because it was too large?

    I don't know what you are implying about the L train being shut down but the 4, 5, and 6 still running. Is your concern that they were trying to keep people from the burroughs away, but didn't want to disrupt UESers?

    7zh9uu9etcor.jpg
    Chanus wrote:
    It's been a butt come true! I get to work with the absolute best boobs in the business. What more could a money ask for? Kids, aim for the freeloaders !
  • VanguardVanguard the champion of i-don't-give-a-fuck what tremendously unlikableRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2012
    I have no implications other than it is suspicious that, in the city which suffered the greatest loss of American life from a terrorist attack, any trains would be allowed to operate in a station where a suspicious package was found. Even more suspicious is that it didn't make the news.

    I have a hard time believing that is actually the case. The more likely story is that they shut it down because of the protest in an attempt to curb the numbers. This is not unheard of; BART saw similar incidents of shutdowns during OWS' fever pitch last fall.

    Vanguard on
  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    It certainly seems plausible. Unless those other trains come into a different part of the facility that was deemed "far enough away" (I obviously have no idea what the layout of the station is), I can't see any reason why you would allow any trains in or out while dealing with a possible bomb.

  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    I have no implications other than it is suspicious that, in the city which suffered the greatest loss of American life from a terrorist attack, any trains would be allowed to operate in a station where a suspicious package was found. Even more suspicious is that it didn't make the news.

    I have a hard time believing that is actually the case. The more likely story is that they shut it down because of the protest in an attempt to curb the numbers. This is not unheard of; BART saw similar incidents of shutdowns during OWS fever pitch last fall.

    If the media reported every single "suspicious package", they would never have to talk about anything else. If they only stopped one line at a station and not the whole station, what is your theory?

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    Can we please stop pretending that capital gains aren't income?

  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    The L is on the opposite side of the station from the 4,5,6 and the 4/5 go to brooklyn so I don't really understand the implication.

    Also, Union Square is naturally crowded with or without additional protesters. If I'm thinking of the same banner, it's pretty big and could block pedestrians. It's not very neighborly.

    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    ows321c.jpg

    Stay classy, chucklefucks.

    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Can we please stop pretending that capital gains aren't income?

    You mean as a society or in the thread? Because I don't think anyone is arguing that capital gains aren't income.

  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Or how protesters were told they couldn't hold a banner in Union Square because it was too large?

    I walked past these guys yesterday but they only had tiny signs so I didn't know what they were protesting until I saw it in the news today. I assumed that they were Occupy Wall Street. Oh, except I saw one sign that just said "fuck the police" which wasn't very informative.

  • SticksSticks Registered User regular
    Informative would have been if it said where to fuck them.

  • ThanatosThanatos Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Sticks wrote: »
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Can we please stop pretending that capital gains aren't income?

    You mean as a society or in the thread? Because I don't think anyone is arguing that capital gains aren't income.
    I mean both, but specifically:
    Deebaser wrote: »
    I don't know what graph you're referring to. :(

    IIRC, The top 1% of income is around $300,000. The top 1% of wealth is around $19,000,000
    What multi-millionaire is accepting 1.5% ROI? There's no way that that includes capital gains.

    Thanatos on
  • VanguardVanguard the champion of i-don't-give-a-fuck what tremendously unlikableRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2012
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    I have no implications other than it is suspicious that, in the city which suffered the greatest loss of American life from a terrorist attack, any trains would be allowed to operate in a station where a suspicious package was found. Even more suspicious is that it didn't make the news.

    I have a hard time believing that is actually the case. The more likely story is that they shut it down because of the protest in an attempt to curb the numbers. This is not unheard of; BART saw similar incidents of shutdowns during OWS fever pitch last fall.

    If the media reported every single "suspicious package", they would never have to talk about anything else. If they only stopped one line at a station and not the whole station, what is your theory?

    Union Square is a major hub. Generally, when locking down a station for suspicious activity or packages, you would close the whole thing off, no? Also, it was closed for two hours, which is a significant period of time. When was it closed? Between 8-9:45 PM, during the high point of the march. Shutting the station down prevents any sort of mobility into the outer boroughs in the case of violence.

    Also, watch this cop scream for about two minutes about how the protesters were throwing glass bottles. Do you see any?
    
    

    Vanguard on
  • VanguardVanguard the champion of i-don't-give-a-fuck what tremendously unlikableRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Upcoming Events

    Weekly Wall Street Marches
    Friday, March 23 2:00pm
    Liberty Square
    Every Friday at 2pm we march from Liberty Square to Wall Street in preparation for May Day, a day of massive economic non-compliance and strike. Occupy is returning back to the basics as done in September: accessible direct actions to strengthen our community and voice our grievances to the 1%.
    http://nycga.net/events/event/weekly-wall-street-marches

    OWS Orientation
    Saturday, March 24, 12noon
    Liberty Square
    Don’t know where to begin? Want help connecting to specific groups and projects? Join us at the next OWS Orientation this Saturday March 24, at noon, meet at the Red Cube across the street from Liberty Square (rain location: public atrium at 60 Wall Street). Email Tascha at orientation@nycga.net.

    Saturday, March 24, 5:00pm-8:00pm
    Disrupt Dirty Power!
    United Nations Plaza, 405 E. 42nd Street
    Occupy Wall Street and allied organizations will kick off a global month of action leading up to Earth Day, April 22, to connect the dots between the 1% and the destruction of the planet. Mock corporate polluters will set up shop, and the 99% will take them on!
    http://nycga.net/events/event/disrupt-dirty-power

    Sunday, March 25, 12:00-2:00pm
    Studying May Day and the General Strike – w/ Ruth Milkman
    Liberty Square
    Organized with the Immigrant Worker Justice working group. Facilitated by Occupy University, as part of a series of teach-ins about May Day.

    Sunday, March 25, 11:00am-7:00pm
    Occupy Town Square IV
    Fort Greene Park, Brooklyn
    Occupy Town Squares are daytime occupations held in parks and other public spaces around NYC. With info tables, teach-ins, and political discussions, each event seeks to recreate the spirit of occupation and reclaim our public commons. Come share your ideas and stories, learn about the movement, argue with us, debate with us, collaborate with us. http://nycga.net/events/event/occupy-town-square-iv-fort-greene-park

    Monday, March 26, 12:30pm
    Bronx Foreclosure Auction Blockade
    Fountain in Joyce Kilmer Park
    Join Occupy Homes and Organizing for Occupation to sing in a moratorium on all foreclosures! Pre-meeting in the park at 12:30pm; action at the Bronx Supreme Civil Court at 2pm.

    Every Day in March, 11:30-2:00pm
    Cultural Occupation Of Liberty Square (COOLS)
    Liberty Square
    OWS inspired the world by maintaining a presence in Liberty Square – creating a viral action that spread across the country and the globe. COOLS brings, food, discussion, education and fun to the park every day. Bring your appetite and light the fire in your belly that will ignite our actions going forward. Join us – we need each other. Do it now! Tweet using #ows and #CultureOcc and find a full schedule of special events, speakers and performances at http://cools.nycga.net

    SAVE THE DATE: May 1
    Call to Action: May Day 2012
    If you’d like to be added to the announcement and/or discussion listserv or have any questions regarding meeting time, location, structure, please contact mayday@nycga.net. http://maydaynyc.org

  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Thanatos wrote: »
    Deebaser wrote: »
    IIRC, The top 1% of income is around $300,000. The top 1% of wealth is around $19,000,000
    What multi-millionaire is accepting 1.5% ROI? There's no way that that includes capital gains.

    Than, it's only counts as capital gains if you actually capitalize it. Also, I imagine, but I'm not sure. It includes assets like your home and car and is not limited to a money pile.

    19 million seems high to me as well, but I think it was @Feral that brought that source to the table.

    Deebaser on
    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    a5ehren wrote: »
    Vanguard wrote: »
    I have no implications other than it is suspicious that, in the city which suffered the greatest loss of American life from a terrorist attack, any trains would be allowed to operate in a station where a suspicious package was found. Even more suspicious is that it didn't make the news.

    I have a hard time believing that is actually the case. The more likely story is that they shut it down because of the protest in an attempt to curb the numbers. This is not unheard of; BART saw similar incidents of shutdowns during OWS fever pitch last fall.

    If the media reported every single "suspicious package", they would never have to talk about anything else. If they only stopped one line at a station and not the whole station, what is your theory?

    Union Square is a major hub. Generally, when locking down a station for suspicious activity or packages, you would close the whole thing off, no? Also, it was closed for two hours, which is a significant period of time. When was it closed? Between 8-9:45 PM, during the high point of the march. Shutting the station down prevents any sort of mobility into the outer boroughs in the case of violence.

    Also, watch this cop scream for about two minutes about how the protesters were throwing glass bottles. Do you see any?

    But you said yourself that they only closed one line of the many that go there. If they were acting in some grand conspiracy, wouldn't they have closed the whole station?

    Also, this just in, people are assholes. This goes for both cops (glass bottle guy) and protesters (donut on a stick guy).

  • VanguardVanguard the champion of i-don't-give-a-fuck what tremendously unlikableRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    No, they left one line open.

  • a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Vanguard wrote: »
    No, they left one line open.
    Or why the 4, 5, and 6 trains were allowed to continue operating during this period of lockdown?

    I'm not familiar with the topology of Union Station, but this makes it sounds like 3 of the 4 train lines that come in there were still operating. Could you give a better description for people who aren't familiar with NYC? (And why it would be significant that the L train was stopped but not the others?)

    a5ehren on
  • VanguardVanguard the champion of i-don't-give-a-fuck what tremendously unlikableRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2012
    Union Square is a major transit hub in Manhattan. It serves the 4, 5, 6, L, N, Q, R trains. The 4, 5, and 6 run on the same tracks. The N, Q, and R also run on one track. While the 4 and the 5 do go to Brooklyn , the L, N, Q, and R services a greater area in Brooklyn. Look at this map:

    sub_Mar12top.gif
    sub_Mar12bottom.gif

    Since it would be illegal to do something like this, they leave open one line, while shutting down the others to cause serious inconvenience to a huge amount of people.

    Vanguard on
  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    I don't know, maybe because the Lexington Avenue line (456) is associated with upper east side rich people whereas the L train is associated with Williamsburg/bushwick hipsters?

    On the other hand though, the green line goes to the Bronx and Crown Heights. Since the rally last night wasn't even an OWS rally, I doubt leaving the 4/5/6 open is indicative of shadiness.

    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    Oh and the 4/5/6 is at the east end of the station. The L is at the Southwest part. It's a pretty big as far as subway stations go.

    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    Vanguard wrote: »
    Also, watch this cop scream for about two minutes about how the protesters were throwing glass bottles. Do you see any?

    Considering the video starts off with the officer saying "watch the bottles" and the tin foil hatted camera douche was blaming the throwing of glass bottles on an "undercover"/"plant"/"recruit"/"someone paid off" I think it's not totally out there to assume that a bottle or bottles were indeed thrown.

    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
  • VanguardVanguard the champion of i-don't-give-a-fuck what tremendously unlikableRegistered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    edited March 2012
    And there may have been, but when you have two minutes of video of a cop saying, "They're throwing bottles!" one would assume:

    -There is more than one person throwing bottles
    -Multiple bottles are being thrown
    -The camera would catch at least one of the above

    Given the NYPDs past treatment of such activity, I find it unlikely that enough were thrown to warrant minutes of a cop yelling about bottles being thrown and see no retaliation.

    Vanguard on
  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    How many bottles being thrown by "peaceful protesters" at police would be enough in your opinion for an officer to get a little snippy for two minutes?

    You could also assume that the human shitstain behind the camera saw it and editted it out. He's claiming that it was an agent provacateur, not that no bottles were thrown.

    Given the past editting of these "citizen journalists" and their willingness to just outright fucking lie, I am amazed that you still give any credence to youtube clips.



    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
  • DeebaserDeebaser Lead Frog Rammer Fake Board GamerRegistered User regular
    edited March 2012
    I honestly don't know what you think that video proves other than some people get a little pissy when a glass bottle is thrown in their direction.

    Deebaser on
    http://i.imgur.com/SVLUjAW.png
    Vanguard wrote: »
    ...poetry is actually the worst
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