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A 40 hour work week, and never working one
Dr. Frenchenstein
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
I've always been confused by the concept of certain companies not only expecting their employees to work far beyond the typical 40 hours per week, but requiring it. How is this legal? My ex girlfriend would regularly work a 60 hour week, and still be doing work at home. She was salaried, so beyond a performance bonus, she was not making any extra dough if a project went exceptionally well, rather than just well. This sort of work (consulting) i can understand the schedule a bit better, but it's still crazy to me.
Another friend works in HR and works a ridiculous schedule of 60+ hours a week. She makes NO extra money regardless of her groups performance, beyond a slight bonus or something as well. She recently had a panic attack on the way to work, was a borderline alcoholic, and is teetering into full blown. Basically, whenever she is not at work, she is drinking or passed out.
I don't understand how companies can do this to their employees, and when is it too much? Part of me wonders if they just work incredibly inefficiently, and that's why they are always working late. I've worked late on occasion but certainly not on a regular basis, and it's definitely not expected of me. (I'm expected to get the work done, and stay 40 hours/week) I'm definitely concerned for my friend (not really my ex, for various reasons, it was just another example) and aside from her simply quitting (which in this economy really isn't an option), i don't know what kind of recourse she has. She constantly bitches about her schedule, and beyond her potential health issues, it's really no fun to be around her tbh.
I get the difference between Salary and Hourly wages, but her company seems to be taking advantage. Does anybody know if there's anything she can do to get a more reasonable schedule?
Another friend works in HR and works a ridiculous schedule of 60+ hours a week. She makes NO extra money regardless of her groups performance, beyond a slight bonus or something as well. She recently had a panic attack on the way to work, was a borderline alcoholic, and is teetering into full blown. Basically, whenever she is not at work, she is drinking or passed out.
I don't understand how companies can do this to their employees, and when is it too much? Part of me wonders if they just work incredibly inefficiently, and that's why they are always working late. I've worked late on occasion but certainly not on a regular basis, and it's definitely not expected of me. (I'm expected to get the work done, and stay 40 hours/week) I'm definitely concerned for my friend (not really my ex, for various reasons, it was just another example) and aside from her simply quitting (which in this economy really isn't an option), i don't know what kind of recourse she has. She constantly bitches about her schedule, and beyond her potential health issues, it's really no fun to be around her tbh.
I get the difference between Salary and Hourly wages, but her company seems to be taking advantage. Does anybody know if there's anything she can do to get a more reasonable schedule?
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It's bullshit, but the USA isn't very labor friendly.
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Hourly- you get paid per hour worked, and usually by law you are required to be paid time and a half for hours over 40 in the work week. The downside is you don't usually see the same benefits you would get if you go...
Salary- You usually get better benefits here. Unfortunately, you are exempt from overtime, and you have a set pay regardless of the hours you work. As such, if they need you to work more than the minimum expectations (most salary positions require between 45-50 hours a week standard), you at best get "compensation time" which is basically time off for extra time worked. Comp Time can sometimes be very hard to cash in, however, and some companies don't really do it at all.
Labor in the US just isn't treated as well as in some other countries.
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If i ever change jobs, i want to make damn sure i don't get put in this situation. I don't mind working overtime, but not that.
A lot of attorneys are expected to bill 50+ hours a week, and nowhere near all of their time is billable.
She gets fired for not being a team player
They cut back on her hours
She gets stuck in her position forever for not wanting to go the extra mile
I would probably broach it if I'm working more than 45 hours regularly a week. I would also ask for some sort of compensation for going above and beyond the standard 40 hour work week on a regular basis. More pay, more benefits, comp time, whatever. Stress that you are more than willing to work the time but it's a two way street, and she is most definitely being taken advantage of unless it was pretty much assumed by the position (teacher for instance is the best example I can think of). Even if it's like half time for comped time, so if you work 16 hours of overtime is a day of comped time.
Hell you might be able to talk them into time and a half. Assuming she's not afforded it by FLSA. Also, even if you're salaried you're not exempt from overtime unless you meet certain guidelines. For instance a programmer not making $23.50 something an hour is still owed time and a half. There's lots of little nuances.
I think there is something she is not telling you. Being salaried typically means that you might have to work more than 40 hours a week (and being a software developer, I know all about crunch time), but if you are doing 60 or more hours a week continuously, then something else is going on that is forcing the additional time investment (unless you are a lawyer or perhaps paralegal). HR is one of the fields where I don't even understand where you would need to work overtime. Unless the company they work for is furiously hiring people and thus generating a mass of paperwork, I would think dealing with any benefits related stuff and employment paperwork would be simple to deal with.
No one joins a consulting company or law office expecting bankers hours... And I particularly like that phrase bc no one at the bank where I work actually works "bankers hours"
Personally, I work in project management and I expect to put in 50-60 hours regularly... And my salary and bonus are appropriate for the effort...ish.
Bowen makes a good point (and i'm not sure about her salary, i would think she makes about that much per hour ~50k annually). Next time she whines about her hours i'll tell her she needs to do that or start looking for a new job. I do worry about her, but i also don't want to hear her complain constantly.
It never ceases to amaze me what companies are able to do in the US. I guess, at least people aren't dropping dead in the office on a regular basis.
Then you negotiated at the appropriate hourly rate hopefully.
Most people negotiate around 40 hours a week (that's not even bankers hours, that's more), but if I negotiated under the assumption of a 40 hour work week with a bit of overtime, I'd be super pissed working regular 50,60, or 70 weeks. The key word is "regular." We've all put in weeks with hours like that, but if it was happening all the then it's time to renegotiate with the manager or HR.
Of course a lot of companies will work you overtime if you're slow and not keeping pace and that's better than firing you. For both of you.
Or they could be a person or two people short of a full staff
Because if a place can get two people to do four people's worth of work they absolutely won't hire anybody else, ask me how I know
Last year, I worked an average of 60 hours/week, peaking at 84 hours one week. This year, I'm really happy that I've cut it down to an average of 50 hours/week, mostly by prioritizing requests and recognizing, along with my management, that not all the work is going to get done. The best thing thing your friend can do is to talk to her management about figuring out a way to cut down her work to a more manageable level since what she's doing isn't working for her. It will take time for them to figure it out and for her to help them do that too. If she has good management, and she's a good team member, they will want to keep her healthy and not burnt out.
Also, you mentioned she was a borderline alcoholic. This is a separate issue that others might have better advice on, but it is entirely possible that work stress is adding to it, and vice versa.
Then that money gets reduced by any smart company. I work for a large corporations legal billing unit, and we don't let them get away with things like "rounding", unless they're REALLY good at it.
Which is good, because you will need it to pay off all the debt accumulated!
This is pretty much how companies can do this to their employees. In this market you know that there are seven job-seekers for every available position, and they know you know. Why staff up to full strength when the skeleton crew is working themselves ragged covering for all the people laid off three or four years ago?
She could check with her state labor department, as some states have various professional categories that exempt empoyees from overtime. If it turns out she is not exempt, she could be entitled to a huge sum of back wages (but the chances of that are probably pretty slim).
There's a reason programmer burnout is a trope.
She once threw a glass bottle of ketchup at a guy for talking smack at beer pong.
edit, never mind that was in response to Bowen.
Not always. Some weeks I only work like 37. Others are 50+, but that hasn't been very much recently (thank god).
I have a timecode just to round out the .25 hours in my timesheet.
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Hourly vs salary - this is not necessarily the same as overtime exempt vs non-exempt. Under federal law, being paid on a salary basis is a necessary but not sufficient condition for being overtime exempt, and only for certain industries. McDonalds couldn't just hire all their clerks as salaried and then refuse to pay them overtime, for instance. You might be exempt from overtime pay even if you're paid on an hourly basis, depending on your industry and state. It really helps if you just don't conflate those two ideas.
Legal overtime exemptions - in general, in order to be exempt from overtime, you have to fulfill certain criteria. Some of those criteria are defined by the FLSA, your state law may include more stringent standards. For people working white collar office jobs, the most common relevant standard is what the FLSA calls "discretion and independent judgment." An HR manager who has to handle personnel problems and resolve conflicts is obviously using discretion and independent judgment; an HR administrative assistant who is doing data entry into the payroll system clearly is not. A lot of people fall somewhere in the middle.
Sadly, because your friends work in HR, I seriously doubt that they're going to have a legal basis for an overtime complaint. They're going to be confronting overtime laws all day every day in the course of their jobs, so it's unlikely that there's some state or federal law that requires them to be paid overtime that they somehow haven't seen.
There is one other avenue. Simply leave when business hours close or shortly thereafter. This puts the onus on her management to bring it up with her, and they'll be trying to discipline her for having the gall to leave after a solid 8-9 hour workday. This puts her in a better negotiating position.
I'm not saying that this is necessarily going to work out in her favor, but it is an option.
I live in Canada, but someone please say this isn't true? Working 50+ hours a week on a regular basis is extremely unhealthy and makes workers less productive per hour.
of course, in the context of the OP's friend's scenario, it often comes down to finding a different job vs toughing it out in a shitty situation.
That's not how it works, aaargh
I live in the US and find this hard to believe as well. There are definitely some professions where you are expected to work more than 50 hours a week, but I don't think it's the average.
@skoalcat:
Are you saying you work for example 9am to 6pm with an hour lunch break because as far as I know that's is normal since a lunch break doesn't count as work.
Like everyone has been saying, it really depends on the trade/job you work.
When I was a cook/Sous Chef/Kitchen Supervisor, working 50+ hours in a week wasn't necessarily abnormal. That said, I also was smart enough to stand up for myself when my employers took advantage of me, and would start refusing to work excessive overtime after a while.
But, as a fun comparison, I'm in the military now and when not on training or on an exercise/deployment, I work around 40 hours/week. It is awesome.
So are you saying that those who work 9-5 don't eat lunch?
To me, there's work that needs to get done and if nobody is doing it then it simply will not get done.
I'm saying that working 9 to 5 with an hour lunch isn't 8 hours of work and thus 9 to 5 every day for a week with an hour lunch would be a 35 hour work week. It's possible I'm mistaken, but I've never actually heard of anyone including lunch in the time they work.
According to the DoL meals are not counted as working time. Title 29 Part 785 says the same thing. I don't if this has changed or if it's common to include it anyway when you say how long you work, but like I said I've never seen it done that way. The only note is that if you aren't relieved of your duties while eating then it does count as working time, but then I'd say you didn't get a lunch break.
edit: I'd be interested to now if people from countries other than the US count the lunch break in the number of hours they say they worked each week/.
This isn't really helpful to the OP though, so I'm going to leave this here. I'd happily join a thread in D&D regarding work culture, though.
For instance I'm in Denmark and the standard working week is 37 hours and you get a minimum of 5 weeks paid vacation per year. Where I work the 37 hours include a ½ hour payed lunchtime and like most places we also get an extra week paid vacation. Also education and medical is free for all.
On the down side we are like the tax capital of the world. Sales tax is 25%, income tax can reach well over 50% if you're making a nice pile of cash and our cars are hit with a 180% car tax (on top of which goes the sales tax) so it's buy one car pay for three...
I love my job, but the hours blow.
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