It was a science vessel that was built for combat (according to tom paris)
who the hell knows
It's probably science as in Japanese whale research, investigating the effects of phasers on things that are not also phasers.
Voyagers not built for combat, every single time it gets in a fight the first shot takes helm control off line.
Well he didn't say it was built well for combat
Although it does disable a borg battleship in like 3 shots, but a race that by all accounts shouldn't be a threat (the kazon) are able to disable them on a number of occasions.
Honestly how do weapons work in Voyager? In TNG a substantially inferior race couldn't hurt you, in Voyager fucking 700 year old atmospheric fighter craft could shoot them down
It was a science vessel that was built for combat (according to tom paris)
who the hell knows
It's probably science as in Japanese whale research, investigating the effects of phasers on things that are not also phasers.
Voyagers not built for combat, every single time it gets in a fight the first shot takes helm control off line.
Well he didn't say it was built well for combat
Although it does disable a borg battleship in like 3 shots, but a race that by all accounts shouldn't be a threat (the kazon) are able to disable them on a number of occasions.
Honestly how do weapons work in Voyager? In TNG a substantially inferior race couldn't hurt you, in Voyager fucking 700 year old atmospheric fighter craft could shoot them down
Expecting consistency from Voyager is like expecting quality from Voyager, or expecting scientific accuracy from Voyager, or expecting character development from Voyager, or expecting good writing from Voyager, or ...
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KageraImitating the worst people. Since 2004Registered Userregular
Voyager is as powerful as the plot needs it to be.
It was a science vessel that was built for combat (according to tom paris)
who the hell knows
Isn't that almost every Starfleet vessel that has large crews?
But the Voyager didn't have a large crew. It was tiny. The old TOS Connie had 400 people, the Galaxy (including families) over 2000. The Voyager had 150ish.
It was a science vessel that was built for combat (according to tom paris)
who the hell knows
Isn't that almost every Starfleet vessel that has large crews?
But the Voyager didn't have a large crew. It was tiny. The old TOS Connie had 400 people, the Galaxy (including families) over 2000. The Voyager had 150ish.
Voyager never had any problem with losing its crew. 10 died on the away mission? Never mind, here's 20 more Cap'n.
It was a science vessel that was built for combat (according to tom paris)
who the hell knows
Isn't that almost every Starfleet vessel that has large crews?
But the Voyager didn't have a large crew. It was tiny. The old TOS Connie had 400 people, the Galaxy (including families) over 2000. The Voyager had 150ish.
Voyager never had any problem with losing its crew. 10 died on the away mission? Never mind, here's 20 more Cap'n.
First thing Janeway did was build the crew cloning facility, next to the photon torpedo and shuttlecraft factories.
It was a science vessel that was built for combat (according to tom paris)
who the hell knows
Isn't that almost every Starfleet vessel that has large crews?
But the Voyager didn't have a large crew. It was tiny. The old TOS Connie had 400 people, the Galaxy (including families) over 2000. The Voyager had 150ish.
Voyager never had any problem with losing its crew. 10 died on the away mission? Never mind, here's 20 more Cap'n.
Your point? The claim that the Voyager has a large crew simply isn't true. At least when compared to most other Fed ships on the show. The Defiant being the obvious exception.
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NocrenLt Futz, Back in ActionNorth CarolinaRegistered Userregular
edited February 2012
For comparison... If that number is true, the Voyager has a crew roughly equal to a modern attack sub.
Of course of those numbers are true then the Enterprise D also had a smaller crew compliment than a fully loaded Carrier
By my guess I guess each crew member has their own quarters instead a bunk.
Nocren on
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
It was a science vessel that was built for combat (according to tom paris)
who the hell knows
Isn't that almost every Starfleet vessel that has large crews?
But the Voyager didn't have a large crew. It was tiny. The old TOS Connie had 400 people, the Galaxy (including families) over 2000. The Voyager had 150ish.
Voyager never had any problem with losing its crew. 10 died on the away mission? Never mind, here's 20 more Cap'n.
Your point? The claim that the Voyager has a large crew simply isn't true. At least when compared to most other Fed ships on the show. The Defiant being the obvious exception.
My point is official numbers mean squat. On the show they had all the crew they needed when the plot called for x people. This is a subject every other series can brush off because they can always recruit more crew off-screen Voyager has no such built-in explanation since they're lost with no hope for reinforcements.
It was a science vessel that was built for combat (according to tom paris)
who the hell knows
Isn't that almost every Starfleet vessel that has large crews?
But the Voyager didn't have a large crew. It was tiny. The old TOS Connie had 400 people, the Galaxy (including families) over 2000. The Voyager had 150ish.
Voyager never had any problem with losing its crew. 10 died on the away mission? Never mind, here's 20 more Cap'n.
Your point? The claim that the Voyager has a large crew simply isn't true. At least when compared to most other Fed ships on the show. The Defiant being the obvious exception.
My point is official numbers mean squat. On the show they had all the crew they needed when the plot called for x people. This is a subject every other series can brush off because they can always recruit more crew off-screen Voyager has no such built-in explanation since they're lost with no hope for reinforcements.
It's almost like you're saying they routinely ignore the basic premise of what makes Voyager a different show. Weird.
For comparison... If that number is true, the Voyager has a crew roughly equal to a modern attack sub.
Of course of those numbers are true then the Enterprise D also had a smaller crew compliment than a fully loaded Carrier
By my guess I guess each crew member has their own quarters instead a bunk.
Those are pretty good comparisons. Big D's supposed to be a Federation carrier at the very least.
I don't really think the D has a good comparison. The crew is assigned so that they can complete any mission ever. They do combat, Diplomacy, Exploration, various scientific tests. They have scientists, historians, and experts in seemingly every conceivable skill. I don't know that the millitary has ever attempted such a thing.
Voyager is as powerful as the plot needs it to be.
That is true of all the Star Trek ships/stations. It is just painfully obvious in the case of Voyager.
I think TNG and DS9 both did pretty damn good jobs of being consistent with how powerful their vessels were. It's not until the movies when the Enterprise suddenly lost its ability to fire any meaningful volume of fire.
I mean established comparisons we get in the show is that the Enterprise D is roughly equivalent to a Romulan warbird (but whoever shot first would win), equivalent to a klingon cruiser or a few Birds of Prey, and that inferior races couldn't touch their shields ("They could fire their weapons till they ran dry and not hurt the Enterprise").
Voyager on the other hand varies wildly in power depending on what they need for the episode, and absolutely every race is at least powerful enough to damage voyager, and damage is cumulative. Hell Kazon shuttle craft can damage Voyager, because if you shoot a tank enough with a 45 pistol, eventually you'll get through its armor amirite?
Well this is a pain in the arse. I've had the TOS recorded in full on my Sky+ box for months from when they were shown on TV, waiting to get around to watching them. So, I started, finally, and only 5 episodes in, the channel have missed episodes, and mislabeled them too. And, they're showing them with the correct 4:3 ratio, but with the top and bottom chopped off so the image fits into widescreen. Every bloody close up is now HUGE, and heads and feet are cut off everywhere. If they'd just shown them stretched, I could have fixed this myself with my TV. Guess I'll be adding the blu rays to my Lovefilm list instead.
Voyager is as powerful as the plot needs it to be.
That is true of all the Star Trek ships/stations. It is just painfully obvious in the case of Voyager.
Except TNG and DS9 at least try to explain why things like that happen. Like when the Dominion attack ships went from incredibly dangerous ships that no one wanted to mess with to expendable fighters, there was actually a storyline explanation for how it happened. Sisko managed to recover a downed Dominion attack ship and the Federation managed to reverse engineer their technology to develop a defense against their weapons.
It was a science vessel that was built for combat (according to tom paris)
who the hell knows
Isn't that almost every Starfleet vessel that has large crews?
But the Voyager didn't have a large crew. It was tiny. The old TOS Connie had 400 people, the Galaxy (including families) over 2000. The Voyager had 150ish.
Voyager never had any problem with losing its crew. 10 died on the away mission? Never mind, here's 20 more Cap'n.
Your point? The claim that the Voyager has a large crew simply isn't true. At least when compared to most other Fed ships on the show. The Defiant being the obvious exception.
My point is official numbers mean squat. On the show they had all the crew they needed when the plot called for x people. This is a subject every other series can brush off because they can always recruit more crew off-screen Voyager has no such built-in explanation since they're lost with no hope for reinforcements.
It's almost like you're saying they routinely ignore the basic premise of what makes Voyager a different show. Weird.
Well they routinely ignored things like logic and consistent writing. Might as well go for the ignorance gold.
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
Voyager is as powerful as the plot needs it to be.
That is true of all the Star Trek ships/stations. It is just painfully obvious in the case of Voyager.
Except TNG and DS9 at least try to explain why things like that happen. Like when the Dominion attack ships went from incredibly dangerous ships that no one wanted to mess with to expendable fighters, there was actually a storyline explanation for how it happened. Sisko managed to recover a downed Dominion attack ship and the Federation managed to reverse engineer their technology to develop a defense against their weapons.
DS9 still had a lot of back-and-forth when the defiant (or far worse, the Klingon bird of prey) between tearing through lots of Jem'Hadar fighters and taking ridiculous amounts of punishment or getting the crap kicked out of it by just 1-3. The Rotarran could kill hundreds, but in a major space battle they'd end up blowing up a lot of unnamed birds of prey.
Voyagers crew and weapon complement? I remember a few episodes where they were keeping score of how many photon torpedoes there were, though they'd occasionally pull a trick where they used 1 and then got a space probe or whatnot that they could re-purpose to replace the lost torpedo. The crew was more troublesome but they actually managed to keep the episodes *I* saw rather low-mortality (or hit the reset button afterwards).
On the other hand this may have been why Ronald D. Moore started every BSG episode with the current scoreboard of remaining survivors.
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ArchonexNo hard feelings, right?Registered Userregular
edited February 2012
So on a whim i've been digging up some of the concept art that went into making the big villains of Star Trek. Star Trek TNG has its share of what could generously be referred to by the TVTropes name for it --- "High Octane Nightmare Fuel". Some episodes seemed to be designed, in fact, to scare the shit out of the viewer. However, it turns out that that's just the tip of iceberg of what could have been.
Surprisingly enough, alot of the designs for the Borg and those bug aliens from Conspiracy were massively toned down for public consumption. The bug alien looks like something straight out of Dead Space in the concept art, for instance.
Here's a picture of an incubator/hive leader, which is the thing that we saw at the end of Conspiracy.
I wish Star Trek Online would bring these guys back. They were creepy as fuck.
Funny story too, originally those Dead Space looking things were planned to be what the Borg were. But reactions to the episode "Conspiracy" ranged from people basically shitting their pants in terror, to people not sure if they wanted to see them again because that episode was so damned dark compared to the other episodes (And this is in a series where what appears to be a lovecraftian Elder God kidnaps the Enterprise to try and understand this thing called "death" by forcing it on the crew in an agonizing, screaming death, one by one.). That, coupled with the fact that it was really expensive to produce the props for that episode, apparently, lead to them going for the much "friendlier" looking Borg.
By the way. You know how the Borg tended to be relatively tame looking outside of the dead looking skin and black cybernetics in most appearances? Guess what? They toned it down again from the concept art.
Seems tame so far, right? This drone even seems kind of cheerful, what with the look on his face.
Someone apparently forgot to tell this dude to put his flesh on, today.
Giger IS watchingyou.
If this doesn't seem creepy, look carefully at the image and what the text accompanying it says. That stuff in the center of his stomach is his intestinal tract, which the Borg apparently didn't bother to waste resources to plate over. Or maybe they felt like it'd help terrorize their foes into submission easier if they were terrified by the mechanical space zombies having a window looking into their guts. Setting all that aside, either they cut him open, or they apparently felt the need to flay the flesh off of the drone prior to putting the plating on, given how the armor looks.
Voyager is as powerful as the plot needs it to be.
That is true of all the Star Trek ships/stations. It is just painfully obvious in the case of Voyager.
Except TNG and DS9 at least try to explain why things like that happen. Like when the Dominion attack ships went from incredibly dangerous ships that no one wanted to mess with to expendable fighters, there was actually a storyline explanation for how it happened. Sisko managed to recover a downed Dominion attack ship and the Federation managed to reverse engineer their technology to develop a defense against their weapons.
That wasn't actually from the ship that Sisko recovered. The Federation just did all that in the background.
Voyager is as powerful as the plot needs it to be.
That is true of all the Star Trek ships/stations. It is just painfully obvious in the case of Voyager.
Except TNG and DS9 at least try to explain why things like that happen. Like when the Dominion attack ships went from incredibly dangerous ships that no one wanted to mess with to expendable fighters, there was actually a storyline explanation for how it happened. Sisko managed to recover a downed Dominion attack ship and the Federation managed to reverse engineer their technology to develop a defense against their weapons.
DS9 still had a lot of back-and-forth when the defiant (or far worse, the Klingon bird of prey) between tearing through lots of Jem'Hadar fighters and taking ridiculous amounts of punishment or getting the crap kicked out of it by just 1-3. The Rotarran could kill hundreds, but in a major space battle they'd end up blowing up a lot of unnamed birds of prey.
Voyagers crew and weapon complement? I remember a few episodes where they were keeping score of how many photon torpedoes there were, though they'd occasionally pull a trick where they used 1 and then got a space probe or whatnot that they could re-purpose to replace the lost torpedo. The crew was more troublesome but they actually managed to keep the episodes *I* saw rather low-mortality (or hit the reset button afterwards).
On the other hand this may have been why Ronald D. Moore started every BSG episode with the current scoreboard of remaining survivors.
The Defiant was only weak against Dominion ships before the Federation developed a defense against Dominion weapons. It was only after the end of season 5 that the Defiant could blow them away by the handful. I believe there was only one time after season 5 where the Defiant had trouble against just two or three Dominion ships and that was when it was studying some kind of anomaly that scrambled its sensors so they weren't able to raise their shields when the Jem'Hadar attacked.
As for the Rotarran, they've rarely shown it taking damage so there's really not that much info on how tough it is compared to other Klingon ships. Although, considering how it is Martok's ship, it has probably been modified to be more powerful than the average Bird of Prey of that size.
Voyager is as powerful as the plot needs it to be.
That is true of all the Star Trek ships/stations. It is just painfully obvious in the case of Voyager.
Except TNG and DS9 at least try to explain why things like that happen. Like when the Dominion attack ships went from incredibly dangerous ships that no one wanted to mess with to expendable fighters, there was actually a storyline explanation for how it happened. Sisko managed to recover a downed Dominion attack ship and the Federation managed to reverse engineer their technology to develop a defense against their weapons.
That wasn't actually from the ship that Sisko recovered. The Federation just did all that in the background.
It is heavily implied that's how the Federation developed a defense since it wasn't until after that episode that Federation shields could stand up to Dominion weapons. Plus they brought it back for an episode during the Dominion War.
So on a whim i've been digging up some of the concept art that went into making the big villains of Star Trek. Star Trek TNG has its share of what could generously be referred to by the TVTropes name for it --- "High Octane Nightmare Fuel". Some episodes seemed to be designed, in fact, to scare the shit out of the viewer. However, it turns out that that's just the tip of iceberg of what could have been.
Surprisingly enough, alot of the designs for the Borg and those bug aliens from Conspiracy were massively toned down for public consumption. The bug alien looks like something straight out of Dead Space in the concept art, for instance.
Here's a picture of an incubator/hive leader, which is the thing that we saw at the end of Conspiracy.
I wish Star Trek Online would bring these guys back. They were creepy as fuck.
Funny story too, originally those Dead Space looking things were planned to be what the Borg were. But reactions to the episode "Conspiracy" ranged from people basically shitting their pants in terror, to people not sure if they wanted to see them again because that episode was so damned dark compared to the other episodes (And this is in a series where what appears to be a lovecraftian Elder God kidnaps the Enterprise to try and understand this thing called "death" by forcing it on the crew in an agonizing, screaming death, one by one.). That, coupled with the fact that it was really expensive to produce the props for that episode, apparently, lead to them going for the much "friendlier" looking Borg.
By the way. You know how the Borg tended to be relatively tame looking outside of the dead looking skin and black cybernetics in most appearances? Guess what? They toned it down again from the concept art.
Seems tame so far, right? This drone even seems kind of cheerful, what with the look on his face.
Someone apparently forgot to tell this dude to put his flesh on, today.
Giger IS watchingyou.
If this doesn't seem creepy, look carefully at the image and what the text accompanying it says. That stuff in the center of his stomach is his intestinal tract, which the Borg apparently didn't bother to waste resources to plate over. Or maybe they felt like it'd help terrorize their foes into submission easier if they were terrified by the mechanical space zombies having a window looking into their guts. Setting all that aside, either they cut him open, or they apparently felt the need to flay the flesh off of the drone prior to putting the plating on, given how the armor looks.
So on a whim i've been digging up some of the concept art that went into making the big villains of Star Trek. Star Trek TNG has its share of what could generously be referred to by the TVTropes name for it --- "High Octane Nightmare Fuel". Some episodes seemed to be designed, in fact, to scare the shit out of the viewer. However, it turns out that that's just the tip of iceberg of what could have been.
Surprisingly enough, alot of the designs for the Borg and those bug aliens from Conspiracy were massively toned down for public consumption. The bug alien looks like something straight out of Dead Space in the concept art, for instance.
Here's a picture of an incubator/hive leader, which is the thing that we saw at the end of Conspiracy.
I wish Star Trek Online would bring these guys back. They were creepy as fuck.
Funny story too, originally those Dead Space looking things were planned to be what the Borg were. But reactions to the episode "Conspiracy" ranged from people basically shitting their pants in terror, to people not sure if they wanted to see them again because that episode was so damned dark compared to the other episodes (And this is in a series where what appears to be a lovecraftian Elder God kidnaps the Enterprise to try and understand this thing called "death" by forcing it on the crew in an agonizing, screaming death, one by one.). That, coupled with the fact that it was really expensive to produce the props for that episode, apparently, lead to them going for the much "friendlier" looking Borg.
By the way. You know how the Borg tended to be relatively tame looking outside of the dead looking skin and black cybernetics in most appearances? Guess what? They toned it down again from the concept art.
Seems tame so far, right? This drone even seems kind of cheerful, what with the look on his face.
Someone apparently forgot to tell this dude to put his flesh on, today.
Giger IS watchingyou.
If this doesn't seem creepy, look carefully at the image and what the text accompanying it says. That stuff in the center of his stomach is his intestinal tract, which the Borg apparently didn't bother to waste resources to plate over. Or maybe they felt like it'd help terrorize their foes into submission easier if they were terrified by the mechanical space zombies having a window looking into their guts. Setting all that aside, either they cut him open, or they apparently felt the need to flay the flesh off of the drone prior to putting the plating on, given how the armor looks.
It was a science vessel that was built for combat (according to tom paris)
who the hell knows
Isn't that almost every Starfleet vessel that has large crews?
But the Voyager didn't have a large crew. It was tiny. The old TOS Connie had 400 people, the Galaxy (including families) over 2000. The Voyager had 150ish.
Uhm... actually the highest compliment of people I believe heard on the USS Enterprise-D was 1,053. Now that could probably be doubled on ships of that class if alterations were made in the design of crew quarters; instead of a large number of family suites and larger quarters, more bunks and multi-berth crew quarters could be utilized.
So we get stiff once in a while. So we have a little fun. What’s wrong with that? This is a free country, isn’t it? I can take my panda any place I want to. And if I wanna buy it a drink, that’s my business.
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Casually HardcoreOnce an Asshole. Trying to be better.Registered Userregular
Ya'll complaints with Voyager reminds me of why I always thought BSG did everything that Voyager did wrong.
Anyways, I finally gotten up to Q-Who? and holy shit was that such a good episode. It's refreshing to see Borg as a threat and not the 'whipping boys of the week'. One more episode in season 2 and then I'm off to season 3!
This reminds me that 90% of the problems they had on TNG would have been solved by listening to Mr. Worf. lol
Worf is such a meta-player, everyone else is there to role play... well except for Ricker, he's the guy going through the fridge asking if there's any girls there and if there are, he wants to do them.
Voyager is as powerful as the plot needs it to be.
That is true of all the Star Trek ships/stations. It is just painfully obvious in the case of Voyager.
Except TNG and DS9 at least try to explain why things like that happen. Like when the Dominion attack ships went from incredibly dangerous ships that no one wanted to mess with to expendable fighters, there was actually a storyline explanation for how it happened. Sisko managed to recover a downed Dominion attack ship and the Federation managed to reverse engineer their technology to develop a defense against their weapons.
DS9 still had a lot of back-and-forth when the defiant (or far worse, the Klingon bird of prey) between tearing through lots of Jem'Hadar fighters and taking ridiculous amounts of punishment or getting the crap kicked out of it by just 1-3. The Rotarran could kill hundreds, but in a major space battle they'd end up blowing up a lot of unnamed birds of prey.
Voyagers crew and weapon complement? I remember a few episodes where they were keeping score of how many photon torpedoes there were, though they'd occasionally pull a trick where they used 1 and then got a space probe or whatnot that they could re-purpose to replace the lost torpedo. The crew was more troublesome but they actually managed to keep the episodes *I* saw rather low-mortality (or hit the reset button afterwards).
On the other hand this may have been why Ronald D. Moore started every BSG episode with the current scoreboard of remaining survivors.
There's actually a storyline explanation for the bird of prey: the klingons haven't changed how birds of prey look in forever (and even in the future they look the same) they just slap better guns/shields/gahk dispensers into them. Not every Bird of Prey is created equal.
The Rotarran is probably using the best stuff, just like how the Defiant has ablative armor and gizmos that make it superior to the Valiant
You know also, Plot armor, which is the real reason of course, I'm just saying it's not nonsensical like Voyager standing up to a borg battleship. One can be explained by luck that comes with plot armor, the other makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Just like the cardassians building a self guided torpedo that is superior in combat to a top of the line Federation ship built 20 years after it was.
It's strange how the Cardassians never bothered to stick their adaptable (superior to borg) self repairing god vessel shit into any of their warships
That was a really bad episode. The Cardassians' most powerful ships, the Galor class, seem to have trouble fighting off small Maquis fighters that only have 5 or 6 crew, but they can build an advanced super missile with adaptive AI that's impervious to an Intrepid class?
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
That was a really bad episode. The Cardassians' most powerful ships, the Galor class, seem to have trouble fighting off small Maquis fighters that only have 5 or 6 crew, but they can build an advanced super missile with adaptive AI that's impervious to an Intrepid class?
The original AI wasn't that smart, and I think Torres might have said she upgraded the shields too?
Also, no crew = way more juice not being wasted on life support to use on shields and other defences.
Plus, it got the bonus +100% defence "super-secret super-weapon" situational advantage.
That was a really bad episode. The Cardassians' most powerful ships, the Galor class, seem to have trouble fighting off small Maquis fighters that only have 5 or 6 crew, but they can build an advanced super missile with adaptive AI that's impervious to an Intrepid class?
Given the apparent size of the Maquis complement in Voyager and the fact they were all rescued from a single Maquis fighter, their crew complement is way more than 5 or 6. And given their size, they're basically the 24th century starship equivalent of a clown car.
That was a really bad episode. The Cardassians' most powerful ships, the Galor class, seem to have trouble fighting off small Maquis fighters that only have 5 or 6 crew, but they can build an advanced super missile with adaptive AI that's impervious to an Intrepid class?
Given the apparent size of the Maquis complement in Voyager and the fact they were all rescued from a single Maquis fighter, their crew complement is way more than 5 or 6. And given their size, they're basically the 24th century starship equivalent of a clown car.
A clown car that comes complete with clowns, no less.
Maybe the Obsidian Order built that missile. They do seem to have technology that's much more advanced than the Cardassian military. Heck, maybe they bought the technology from another race.
Voyager is as powerful as the plot needs it to be.
That is true of all the Star Trek ships/stations. It is just painfully obvious in the case of Voyager.
Except TNG and DS9 at least try to explain why things like that happen. Like when the Dominion attack ships went from incredibly dangerous ships that no one wanted to mess with to expendable fighters, there was actually a storyline explanation for how it happened. Sisko managed to recover a downed Dominion attack ship and the Federation managed to reverse engineer their technology to develop a defense against their weapons.
DS9 still had a lot of back-and-forth when the defiant (or far worse, the Klingon bird of prey) between tearing through lots of Jem'Hadar fighters and taking ridiculous amounts of punishment or getting the crap kicked out of it by just 1-3. The Rotarran could kill hundreds, but in a major space battle they'd end up blowing up a lot of unnamed birds of prey.
Voyagers crew and weapon complement? I remember a few episodes where they were keeping score of how many photon torpedoes there were, though they'd occasionally pull a trick where they used 1 and then got a space probe or whatnot that they could re-purpose to replace the lost torpedo. The crew was more troublesome but they actually managed to keep the episodes *I* saw rather low-mortality (or hit the reset button afterwards).
On the other hand this may have been why Ronald D. Moore started every BSG episode with the current scoreboard of remaining survivors.
There's actually a storyline explanation for the bird of prey: the klingons haven't changed how birds of prey look in forever (and even in the future they look the same) they just slap better guns/shields/gahk dispensers into them. Not every Bird of Prey is created equal.
The Rotarran is probably using the best stuff, just like how the Defiant has ablative armor and gizmos that make it superior to the Valiant
You know also, Plot armor, which is the real reason of course, I'm just saying it's not nonsensical like Voyager standing up to a borg battleship. One can be explained by luck that comes with plot armor, the other makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Just like the cardassians building a self guided torpedo that is superior in combat to a top of the line Federation ship built 20 years after it was.
It's strange how the Cardassians never bothered to stick their adaptable (superior to borg) self repairing god vessel shit into any of their warships
I figured it had more to do with the crew, especially the bridge officers. The main characters in star trek are always being portrayed as heroes, famous throughout the federation. I think their amazing skill gives massive buffs to their ship. That's how it worked in STO anyway.
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Voyagers not built for combat, every single time it gets in a fight the first shot takes helm control off line.
Well he didn't say it was built well for combat
Although it does disable a borg battleship in like 3 shots, but a race that by all accounts shouldn't be a threat (the kazon) are able to disable them on a number of occasions.
Honestly how do weapons work in Voyager? In TNG a substantially inferior race couldn't hurt you, in Voyager fucking 700 year old atmospheric fighter craft could shoot them down
Expecting consistency from Voyager is like expecting quality from Voyager, or expecting scientific accuracy from Voyager, or expecting character development from Voyager, or expecting good writing from Voyager, or ...
Voyager never had any problem with losing its crew. 10 died on the away mission? Never mind, here's 20 more Cap'n.
That is true of all the Star Trek ships/stations. It is just painfully obvious in the case of Voyager.
First thing Janeway did was build the crew cloning facility, next to the photon torpedo and shuttlecraft factories.
Of course of those numbers are true then the Enterprise D also had a smaller crew compliment than a fully loaded Carrier
By my guess I guess each crew member has their own quarters instead a bunk.
Those are pretty good comparisons. Big D's supposed to be a Federation carrier at the very least.
My point is official numbers mean squat. On the show they had all the crew they needed when the plot called for x people. This is a subject every other series can brush off because they can always recruit more crew off-screen Voyager has no such built-in explanation since they're lost with no hope for reinforcements.
It's almost like you're saying they routinely ignore the basic premise of what makes Voyager a different show. Weird.
I don't really think the D has a good comparison. The crew is assigned so that they can complete any mission ever. They do combat, Diplomacy, Exploration, various scientific tests. They have scientists, historians, and experts in seemingly every conceivable skill. I don't know that the millitary has ever attempted such a thing.
don't forget enterprise is as much a cruise ship as it is whatever else they wanted it to be
I think TNG and DS9 both did pretty damn good jobs of being consistent with how powerful their vessels were. It's not until the movies when the Enterprise suddenly lost its ability to fire any meaningful volume of fire.
I mean established comparisons we get in the show is that the Enterprise D is roughly equivalent to a Romulan warbird (but whoever shot first would win), equivalent to a klingon cruiser or a few Birds of Prey, and that inferior races couldn't touch their shields ("They could fire their weapons till they ran dry and not hurt the Enterprise").
Voyager on the other hand varies wildly in power depending on what they need for the episode, and absolutely every race is at least powerful enough to damage voyager, and damage is cumulative. Hell Kazon shuttle craft can damage Voyager, because if you shoot a tank enough with a 45 pistol, eventually you'll get through its armor amirite?
Except TNG and DS9 at least try to explain why things like that happen. Like when the Dominion attack ships went from incredibly dangerous ships that no one wanted to mess with to expendable fighters, there was actually a storyline explanation for how it happened. Sisko managed to recover a downed Dominion attack ship and the Federation managed to reverse engineer their technology to develop a defense against their weapons.
Well they routinely ignored things like logic and consistent writing. Might as well go for the ignorance gold.
DS9 still had a lot of back-and-forth when the defiant (or far worse, the Klingon bird of prey) between tearing through lots of Jem'Hadar fighters and taking ridiculous amounts of punishment or getting the crap kicked out of it by just 1-3. The Rotarran could kill hundreds, but in a major space battle they'd end up blowing up a lot of unnamed birds of prey.
Voyagers crew and weapon complement? I remember a few episodes where they were keeping score of how many photon torpedoes there were, though they'd occasionally pull a trick where they used 1 and then got a space probe or whatnot that they could re-purpose to replace the lost torpedo. The crew was more troublesome but they actually managed to keep the episodes *I* saw rather low-mortality (or hit the reset button afterwards).
On the other hand this may have been why Ronald D. Moore started every BSG episode with the current scoreboard of remaining survivors.
Surprisingly enough, alot of the designs for the Borg and those bug aliens from Conspiracy were massively toned down for public consumption. The bug alien looks like something straight out of Dead Space in the concept art, for instance.
Here's a picture of an incubator/hive leader, which is the thing that we saw at the end of Conspiracy.
I wish Star Trek Online would bring these guys back. They were creepy as fuck.
Funny story too, originally those Dead Space looking things were planned to be what the Borg were. But reactions to the episode "Conspiracy" ranged from people basically shitting their pants in terror, to people not sure if they wanted to see them again because that episode was so damned dark compared to the other episodes (And this is in a series where what appears to be a lovecraftian Elder God kidnaps the Enterprise to try and understand this thing called "death" by forcing it on the crew in an agonizing, screaming death, one by one.). That, coupled with the fact that it was really expensive to produce the props for that episode, apparently, lead to them going for the much "friendlier" looking Borg.
By the way. You know how the Borg tended to be relatively tame looking outside of the dead looking skin and black cybernetics in most appearances? Guess what? They toned it down again from the concept art.
Seems tame so far, right? This drone even seems kind of cheerful, what with the look on his face.
Someone apparently forgot to tell this dude to put his flesh on, today.
Giger IS watching you.
If this doesn't seem creepy, look carefully at the image and what the text accompanying it says. That stuff in the center of his stomach is his intestinal tract, which the Borg apparently didn't bother to waste resources to plate over. Or maybe they felt like it'd help terrorize their foes into submission easier if they were terrified by the mechanical space zombies having a window looking into their guts. Setting all that aside, either they cut him open, or they apparently felt the need to flay the flesh off of the drone prior to putting the plating on, given how the armor looks.
That wasn't actually from the ship that Sisko recovered. The Federation just did all that in the background.
The Defiant was only weak against Dominion ships before the Federation developed a defense against Dominion weapons. It was only after the end of season 5 that the Defiant could blow them away by the handful. I believe there was only one time after season 5 where the Defiant had trouble against just two or three Dominion ships and that was when it was studying some kind of anomaly that scrambled its sensors so they weren't able to raise their shields when the Jem'Hadar attacked.
As for the Rotarran, they've rarely shown it taking damage so there's really not that much info on how tough it is compared to other Klingon ships. Although, considering how it is Martok's ship, it has probably been modified to be more powerful than the average Bird of Prey of that size.
It is heavily implied that's how the Federation developed a defense since it wasn't until after that episode that Federation shields could stand up to Dominion weapons. Plus they brought it back for an episode during the Dominion War.
Sadly those images aren't showing for me. :-(
Same. Please rehost, I'd love to see them!
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This reminds me that 90% of the problems they had on TNG would have been solved by listening to Mr. Worf. lol
Anyways, I finally gotten up to Q-Who? and holy shit was that such a good episode. It's refreshing to see Borg as a threat and not the 'whipping boys of the week'. One more episode in season 2 and then I'm off to season 3!
Worf is such a meta-player, everyone else is there to role play... well except for Ricker, he's the guy going through the fridge asking if there's any girls there and if there are, he wants to do them.
Plot?
Oh right, I forgot, this is Star Trek and logic isnt really important.
There's actually a storyline explanation for the bird of prey: the klingons haven't changed how birds of prey look in forever (and even in the future they look the same) they just slap better guns/shields/gahk dispensers into them. Not every Bird of Prey is created equal.
The Rotarran is probably using the best stuff, just like how the Defiant has ablative armor and gizmos that make it superior to the Valiant
You know also, Plot armor, which is the real reason of course, I'm just saying it's not nonsensical like Voyager standing up to a borg battleship. One can be explained by luck that comes with plot armor, the other makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Just like the cardassians building a self guided torpedo that is superior in combat to a top of the line Federation ship built 20 years after it was.
It's strange how the Cardassians never bothered to stick their adaptable (superior to borg) self repairing god vessel shit into any of their warships
The original AI wasn't that smart, and I think Torres might have said she upgraded the shields too?
Also, no crew = way more juice not being wasted on life support to use on shields and other defences.
Plus, it got the bonus +100% defence "super-secret super-weapon" situational advantage.
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Given the apparent size of the Maquis complement in Voyager and the fact they were all rescued from a single Maquis fighter, their crew complement is way more than 5 or 6. And given their size, they're basically the 24th century starship equivalent of a clown car.
I figured it had more to do with the crew, especially the bridge officers. The main characters in star trek are always being portrayed as heroes, famous throughout the federation. I think their amazing skill gives massive buffs to their ship. That's how it worked in STO anyway.