An interesting dynamic in the 'two crews must band together to make their way home.'(
This part of the story had massive potential, but it was all sorted into "we're all happy-go-lucky Starfleet crew now. Maquis who?" crap after only two or three episodes. Some of the worst writing in the series, some of the worst acting... I know Robert Beltran hated everything about it, but he and Garrett Wang really made it duller than it was. Another part of the story with great potential was the idea of them running out of supplies and the ship beginning to fall apart from the lack of maintenance, but no, it was dealt with in one or two episodes and then never seen again. Clean uniforms always to hand, the ship always looked pristine and they had enough power to let the captain run around living her fantasies on the holodeck, but not enough to synthesize anything.
That's because the holodeck uses a separate power source, incompatible with the rest of the ship's systems.
...
I shit you not.
That's actually logical IMO.
That a subsystem of a ship uses such a completely different power source that it can never be used for other things? In a show where they've literally integrated tech from species they met five minutes ago?
An interesting dynamic in the 'two crews must band together to make their way home.'(
This part of the story had massive potential, but it was all sorted into "we're all happy-go-lucky Starfleet crew now. Maquis who?" crap after only two or three episodes. Some of the worst writing in the series, some of the worst acting... I know Robert Beltran hated everything about it, but he and Garrett Wang really made it duller than it was. Another part of the story with great potential was the idea of them running out of supplies and the ship beginning to fall apart from the lack of maintenance, but no, it was dealt with in one or two episodes and then never seen again. Clean uniforms always to hand, the ship always looked pristine and they had enough power to let the captain run around living her fantasies on the holodeck, but not enough to synthesize anything.
That's because the holodeck uses a separate power source, incompatible with the rest of the ship's systems.
...
I shit you not.
That's actually logical IMO.
That a subsystem of a ship uses such a completely different power source that it can never be used for other things? In a show where they've literally integrated tech from species they met five minutes ago?
I mean it's a system that would need a hell of a lot of power to operate. That said, they should have cannibalized its power source the first week to add to the ship's energy supply when they were stranded.
An interesting dynamic in the 'two crews must band together to make their way home.'(
This part of the story had massive potential, but it was all sorted into "we're all happy-go-lucky Starfleet crew now. Maquis who?" crap after only two or three episodes. Some of the worst writing in the series, some of the worst acting... I know Robert Beltran hated everything about it, but he and Garrett Wang really made it duller than it was. Another part of the story with great potential was the idea of them running out of supplies and the ship beginning to fall apart from the lack of maintenance, but no, it was dealt with in one or two episodes and then never seen again. Clean uniforms always to hand, the ship always looked pristine and they had enough power to let the captain run around living her fantasies on the holodeck, but not enough to synthesize anything.
That's because the holodeck uses a separate power source, incompatible with the rest of the ship's systems.
...
I shit you not.
That's actually logical IMO.
That a subsystem of a ship uses such a completely different power source that it can never be used for other things? In a show where they've literally integrated tech from species they met five minutes ago?
I mean it's a system that would need a hell of a lot of power to operate. That said, they should have cannibalized its power source the first week to add to the ship's energy supply when they were stranded.
Yes, that's logical. The full sensory simulation\replication of small items would require a huge amount of power to operate and should have been cannibalized fairly quickly for parts as well as power. Kirk and crew were just fine with a bar and a half dozen space board games and you never heard them bitching about a lack of recreational opportunities.
But because the writers didn't want to risk losing holodeck episodes, it was decided that the power supply for the holodecks was completely separate from the rest of the ship systems and couldn't be jury rigged into powering actually vital ship systems. Despite the fact that Starfleet engineers are known throughout the galaxy as being able to build a subspace radio in a cave with a box of scraps, somehow they couldn't rig together a power adapter that would have let the ship tap into it.
An interesting dynamic in the 'two crews must band together to make their way home.'(
This part of the story had massive potential, but it was all sorted into "we're all happy-go-lucky Starfleet crew now. Maquis who?" crap after only two or three episodes. Some of the worst writing in the series, some of the worst acting... I know Robert Beltran hated everything about it, but he and Garrett Wang really made it duller than it was. Another part of the story with great potential was the idea of them running out of supplies and the ship beginning to fall apart from the lack of maintenance, but no, it was dealt with in one or two episodes and then never seen again. Clean uniforms always to hand, the ship always looked pristine and they had enough power to let the captain run around living her fantasies on the holodeck, but not enough to synthesize anything.
That's because the holodeck uses a separate power source, incompatible with the rest of the ship's systems.
...
I shit you not.
That's actually logical IMO.
That a subsystem of a ship uses such a completely different power source that it can never be used for other things? In a show where they've literally integrated tech from species they met five minutes ago?
They learned after all that shit in TNG went down to completely firewall off the holodeck from everything else. That thing is ground zero for half the major catastrophes in the show.
Of course, I've lost count of the amount of times they completely forgot that the holodeck has seperate power. One episode, the ship even lost power, and the lights went off in the holdeck. Of course, they used a holographic flashlight to see. On the holodeck with no power. But it has seperate power. But it could go off. But why does the flashli-MY BRAIN.
But yeah they never mention it has seperate power again, and are always talking about diverting power from/to it.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
Subconsciously it may have influenced me. TNG and TOS, in particular.
It didn't effect me like it did you, though. I'm a bit of a pessimist about humans surviving the next few hundred years with global warming occurring and humanity sitting in our asses doing nothing about it. For all our accomplishments we've let our worst impulses take over when we need them most, even today, in matters that effect us all like politics & business. This is kinda why DS9 is still my favorite Trek series. It doesn't pretend those problems don't exist and has characters willing to confront them head on.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
Subconsciously it may have influenced me. TNG and TOS, in particular.
It didn't effect me like it did you, though. I'm a bit of a pessimist about humans surviving the next few hundred years with global warming occurring and humanity sitting in our asses doing nothing about it. For all out accomplishments we've let our worst impulses take over when we need them most, even today, in matters that effect us all like politics & business. This is kinda why DS9 is still my favorite Trek series. It doesn't pretend those problems don't exist and has characters willing to confront them head on.
I do love that about DS9: it uses alien conflicts to tackle issues of racism, genocide, and war. I think the ways in which the show handled the portrayal of mankind & ethics differently can be explained by Gene Roddenberry's passing away. He was alive at its conception, but was never directly involved.
One of my favorites from DS9 "Far Beyond the Stars" where the Prophets give Sisko a vision of living as a black science fiction writer in 1950s. It's really poignant.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
Subconsciously it may have influenced me. TNG and TOS, in particular.
It didn't effect me like it did you, though. I'm a bit of a pessimist about humans surviving the next few hundred years with global warming occurring and humanity sitting in our asses doing nothing about it. For all out accomplishments we've let our worst impulses take over when we need them most, even today, in matters that effect us all like politics & business. This is kinda why DS9 is still my favorite Trek series. It doesn't pretend those problems don't exist and has characters willing to confront them head on.
I do love that about DS9: it uses alien conflicts to tackle issues of racism, genocide, and war. I think the ways in which the show handled the portrayal of mankind & ethics differently can be explained by Gene Roddenberry's passing away. He was alive at its conception, but was never directly involved.
Agreed.
One of my favorites from DS9 "Far Beyond the Stars" where the Prophets give Sisko a vision of living as a black science fiction writer in 1950s. It's really poignant.
Been years since I've watched the show (thank god for Netflix and Amazon) but that sounds like cool. Very impressive that they'd take out all the Trek elements for a strictly drama episode.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
Voyager is better than Enterprise. The only thing Enterprise has over Voyager is that it takes less time to watch all of it.
It really isn't. Enterprise has better, more interesting characters. The majority of the episodes are actually enjoyable, has greater continuity & the writing has higher quality consistantly. The last season also has a showrunner who comes close to fulfilling the series potential.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
It ended with Janeway murdering someone!
The situation was astronomically unique (as many ST situations are), and you could say that she was acting on behalf of the two men (who's lives had been put in her hands) in their absence. I don't think it's necessarily what I would've done in that situation but I don't think it's as black and white as murder.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
It ended with Janeway murdering someone!
The situation was astronomically unique (as many ST situations are), and you could say that she was acting on behalf of the two men (who's lives had been put in her hands) in their absence. I don't think it's necessarily what I would've done in that situation but I don't think it's as black and white as murder.
None of that matters. There was a sentient sapient creature who had decided he didn't want to have a procedure preformed on him that would either kill him or make him lesser, depending on how you look at it, and then she did it anyway.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
It ended with Janeway murdering someone!
The situation was astronomically unique (as many ST situations are), and you could say that she was acting on behalf of the two men (who's lives had been put in her hands) in their absence. I don't think it's necessarily what I would've done in that situation but I don't think it's as black and white as murder.
None of that matters. There was a sentient sapient creature who had decided he didn't want to have a procedure preformed on him that would either kill him or make him lesser, depending on how you look at it, and then she did it anyway.
On the other hand Tuvix's mere existence means he technically killed them. Don't they have the right to continue their lives, just as much as he does?
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
It ended with Janeway murdering someone!
The situation was astronomically unique (as many ST situations are), and you could say that she was acting on behalf of the two men (who's lives had been put in her hands) in their absence. I don't think it's necessarily what I would've done in that situation but I don't think it's as black and white as murder.
None of that matters. There was a sentient sapient creature who had decided he didn't want to have a procedure preformed on him that would either kill him or make him lesser, depending on how you look at it, and then she did it anyway.
On the other hand Tuvix's mere existence means he technically killed them. Don't they have the right to continue their lives, just as much as he does?
He didn't kill them. The freak accident that created him did. Both sides couldn't survive but one group was already dead and one you had to kill.
Plus the way he described it both characters were a part of him. If so the only wholly unique thing that died either way was Tuvix. But that's a very moral-free argument I prefer not to use.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
It ended with Janeway murdering someone!
The situation was astronomically unique (as many ST situations are), and you could say that she was acting on behalf of the two men (who's lives had been put in her hands) in their absence. I don't think it's necessarily what I would've done in that situation but I don't think it's as black and white as murder.
None of that matters. There was a sentient sapient creature who had decided he didn't want to have a procedure preformed on him that would either kill him or make him lesser, depending on how you look at it, and then she did it anyway.
On the other hand Tuvix's mere existence means he technically killed them. Don't they have the right to continue their lives, just as much as he does?
He didn't kill them. The freak accident that created him did. Both sides couldn't survive but one group was already dead and one you had to kill.
Only they weren't dead, they were fused into a third entity. The reason I use the word "killed" is because you think he died when he didn't exist anymore. He may not have caused the accident that made him but his existence ended their's. His existence makes them dead since they no longer existed with him around. If he died when Janeway reversed the process, so did they when he was born.
Plus the way he described it both characters were a part of him. If so the only wholly unique thing that died either way was Tuvix. But that's a very moral-free argument I prefer not to use.
Neelix and Tuvak were unique beings, too. Not on his level from a scientific point of view, but unique all the same.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
It ended with Janeway murdering someone!
The situation was astronomically unique (as many ST situations are), and you could say that she was acting on behalf of the two men (who's lives had been put in her hands) in their absence. I don't think it's necessarily what I would've done in that situation but I don't think it's as black and white as murder.
None of that matters. There was a sentient sapient creature who had decided he didn't want to have a procedure preformed on him that would either kill him or make him lesser, depending on how you look at it, and then she did it anyway.
On the other hand Tuvix's mere existence means he technically killed them. Don't they have the right to continue their lives, just as much as he does?
He didn't kill them. The freak accident that created him did. Both sides couldn't survive but one group was already dead and one you had to kill.
Only they weren't dead, they were fused into a third entity. The reason I use the word "killed" is because you think he died when he didn't exist anymore. He may not have caused the accident that made him but his existence ended their's. His existence makes them dead since they no longer existed with him around. If he died when Janeway reversed the process, so did they when he was born.
Plus the way he described it both characters were a part of him. If so the only wholly unique thing that died either way was Tuvix. But that's a very moral-free argument I prefer not to use.
Neelix and Tuvak were unique beings, too. Not on his level from a scientific point of view, but unique all the same.
Tuvix was according to himself everything they were. And yes we're using "killed" to describe a more nebulous concept, that doesn't change the fact that the creature that sat there was alive. By being alive it had rights. Even if you decided that Tuvok and Neelix's rights matter more then his, which you would have to to justify killing him for them, it's made painfully clear that they didn't do it because it was the moral thing to do but because they liked Tuvok and Neelix better.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
It ended with Janeway murdering someone!
The situation was astronomically unique (as many ST situations are), and you could say that she was acting on behalf of the two men (who's lives had been put in her hands) in their absence. I don't think it's necessarily what I would've done in that situation but I don't think it's as black and white as murder.
None of that matters. There was a sentient sapient creature who had decided he didn't want to have a procedure preformed on him that would either kill him or make him lesser, depending on how you look at it, and then she did it anyway.
On the other hand Tuvix's mere existence means he technically killed them. Don't they have the right to continue their lives, just as much as he does?
He didn't kill them. The freak accident that created him did. Both sides couldn't survive but one group was already dead and one you had to kill.
Only they weren't dead, they were fused into a third entity. The reason I use the word "killed" is because you think he died when he didn't exist anymore. He may not have caused the accident that made him but his existence ended their's. His existence makes them dead since they no longer existed with him around. If he died when Janeway reversed the process, so did they when he was born.
Plus the way he described it both characters were a part of him. If so the only wholly unique thing that died either way was Tuvix. But that's a very moral-free argument I prefer not to use.
Neelix and Tuvak were unique beings, too. Not on his level from a scientific point of view, but unique all the same.
Tuvix was according to himself everything they were. And yes we're using "killed" to describe a more nebulous concept, that doesn't change the fact that the creature that sat there was alive. By being alive it had rights. Even if you decided that Tuvok and Neelix's rights matter more then his, which you would have to to justify killing him for them, it's made painfully clear that they didn't do it because it was the moral thing to do but because they liked Tuvok and Neelix better.
The situation is more complex then that IMO. If Tuvix really did die then you're right Janeway was guilty of murder. Unfortunately there's more at stake then him. His existence is a death sentence for Neelix and Tuvak. That's why it makes the situation very unique. Usually when someone dies they won't split into two entities who "died" so the third entity could exist.
Either way it's a bad situation for someone. Somebody has to die for the others to live, which would have still occurred even had Janeway kept him alive.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
Subconsciously it may have influenced me. TNG and TOS, in particular.
It didn't effect me like it did you, though. I'm a bit of a pessimist about humans surviving the next few hundred years with global warming occurring and humanity sitting in our asses doing nothing about it. For all out accomplishments we've let our worst impulses take over when we need them most, even today, in matters that effect us all like politics & business. This is kinda why DS9 is still my favorite Trek series. It doesn't pretend those problems don't exist and has characters willing to confront them head on.
I do love that about DS9: it uses alien conflicts to tackle issues of racism, genocide, and war. I think the ways in which the show handled the portrayal of mankind & ethics differently can be explained by Gene Roddenberry's passing away. He was alive at its conception, but was never directly involved.
Agreed.
One of my favorites from DS9 "Far Beyond the Stars" where the Prophets give Sisko a vision of living as a black science fiction writer in 1950s. It's really poignant.
Been years since I've watched the show (thank god for Netflix and Amazon) but that sounds like cool. Very impressive that they'd take out all the Trek elements for a strictly drama episode.
What you two are discussing can be said of every Star Trek series, not just DS9. Tell me of a ST series that pretends problems don't exist or that portrays main characters unwilling to confront them(at least for the most part). Without hyperbole.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
Subconsciously it may have influenced me. TNG and TOS, in particular.
It didn't effect me like it did you, though. I'm a bit of a pessimist about humans surviving the next few hundred years with global warming occurring and humanity sitting in our asses doing nothing about it. For all out accomplishments we've let our worst impulses take over when we need them most, even today, in matters that effect us all like politics & business. This is kinda why DS9 is still my favorite Trek series. It doesn't pretend those problems don't exist and has characters willing to confront them head on.
I do love that about DS9: it uses alien conflicts to tackle issues of racism, genocide, and war. I think the ways in which the show handled the portrayal of mankind & ethics differently can be explained by Gene Roddenberry's passing away. He was alive at its conception, but was never directly involved.
Agreed.
One of my favorites from DS9 "Far Beyond the Stars" where the Prophets give Sisko a vision of living as a black science fiction writer in 1950s. It's really poignant.
Been years since I've watched the show (thank god for Netflix and Amazon) but that sounds like cool. Very impressive that they'd take out all the Trek elements for a strictly drama episode.
What you two are discussing can be said of every Star Trek series, not just DS9. Tell me of a ST series that pretends problems don't exist or that portrays main characters unwilling to confront them(at least for the most part). Without hyperbole.
They did confront humanity's problems, that's true. DS9 did a much better, less jaded take on the subject. TOS comes the closest next to DS9, but TNG*, Voyager & Enterprise were terrible at it IMO.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
It ended with Janeway murdering someone!
The situation was astronomically unique (as many ST situations are), and you could say that she was acting on behalf of the two men (who's lives had been put in her hands) in their absence. I don't think it's necessarily what I would've done in that situation but I don't think it's as black and white as murder.
None of that matters. There was a sentient sapient creature who had decided he didn't want to have a procedure preformed on him that would either kill him or make him lesser, depending on how you look at it, and then she did it anyway.
On the other hand Tuvix's mere existence means he technically killed them. Don't they have the right to continue their lives, just as much as he does?
He didn't kill them. The freak accident that created him did. Both sides couldn't survive but one group was already dead and one you had to kill.
Only they weren't dead, they were fused into a third entity. The reason I use the word "killed" is because you think he died when he didn't exist anymore. He may not have caused the accident that made him but his existence ended their's. His existence makes them dead since they no longer existed with him around. If he died when Janeway reversed the process, so did they when he was born.
Plus the way he described it both characters were a part of him. If so the only wholly unique thing that died either way was Tuvix. But that's a very moral-free argument I prefer not to use.
Neelix and Tuvak were unique beings, too. Not on his level from a scientific point of view, but unique all the same.
Killing requires action in part of the individual involved. Tuvix simply rose from circumstances that resulted in the death of two others. His existence did not end theirs, their existence ended the moment whatever mishap occurred. To say Tuvix ended their existence would imply that he existed previously to the two undergoing cessation of their own existence. Of course, he did not. So he could not.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
It ended with Janeway murdering someone!
The situation was astronomically unique (as many ST situations are), and you could say that she was acting on behalf of the two men (who's lives had been put in her hands) in their absence. I don't think it's necessarily what I would've done in that situation but I don't think it's as black and white as murder.
None of that matters. There was a sentient sapient creature who had decided he didn't want to have a procedure preformed on him that would either kill him or make him lesser, depending on how you look at it, and then she did it anyway.
On the other hand Tuvix's mere existence means he technically killed them. Don't they have the right to continue their lives, just as much as he does?
He didn't kill them. The freak accident that created him did. Both sides couldn't survive but one group was already dead and one you had to kill.
Only they weren't dead, they were fused into a third entity. The reason I use the word "killed" is because you think he died when he didn't exist anymore. He may not have caused the accident that made him but his existence ended their's. His existence makes them dead since they no longer existed with him around. If he died when Janeway reversed the process, so did they when he was born.
Plus the way he described it both characters were a part of him. If so the only wholly unique thing that died either way was Tuvix. But that's a very moral-free argument I prefer not to use.
Neelix and Tuvak were unique beings, too. Not on his level from a scientific point of view, but unique all the same.
Killing requires action in part of the individual involved. Tuvix simply rose from circumstances that resulted in the death of two others. His existence did not end theirs, their existence ended the moment whatever mishap occurred. To say Tuvix ended their existence would imply that he existed previously to the two undergoing cessation of their own existence. Of course, he did not. So he could not.
Of course his existence ended their's. The fact they came back once the process was reversed proves it. He didn't have to exist previously to "kill" them. All he had to do was exist to keep them "dead". Being alive is a crucial element in why they no longer existed.
Ending their existence requires agency on the part of Tuvix, something he did not possess prior to his own existence, for obvious reasons. He cannot act in the universe without having existed, he can't be attributed with action. Saying he did something isn't applicable to this situation as he as an entity was not a factor in their death. Their death was a factor in his formation as an entity.
Ending their existence requires agency on the part of Tuvix, something he did not possess prior to his own existence, for obvious reasons. He cannot act in the universe without having existed, he can't be attributed with action. Saying he did something isn't applicable to this situation as he as an entity was not a factor in their death. Their death was a factor in his formation as an entity.
Were this is a normal death, I'd agree. I'm not talking about the event which caused Tuvix' existence. He had no role in that. However, every second after that his existence kept them from living again.
Yes, but so? It just goes the other way around. Tuvok and Neelix are no more 'valid' in terms of existence than Tuvix, someone who had no control over the circumstance in question. To deny him the choice of existence to bring back the other two is exactly what you're getting at. To have them in place of him keeps him from living.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
Ending their existence requires agency on the part of Tuvix, something he did not possess prior to his own existence, for obvious reasons. He cannot act in the universe without having existed, he can't be attributed with action. Saying he did something isn't applicable to this situation as he as an entity was not a factor in their death. Their death was a factor in his formation as an entity.
Were this is a normal death, I'd agree. I'm not talking about the event which caused Tuvix' existence. He had no role in that. However, every second after that his existence kept them from living again.
But they were already dead.
They could easily have added in something to explain why Tuvix had to go away, some kind of medicotechnobabble or something. Instead they went with the Stargate Atlantis justification: It's okay cause it saves our main characters. I loved SGA, but those guys had some fucked up morals at times.
Yes, but so? It just goes the other way around. Tuvok and Neelix are no more 'valid' in terms of existence than Tuvix, someone who had no control over the circumstance in question. To deny him the choice of existence to bring back the other two is exactly what you're getting at. To have them in place of him keeps him from living.
It's the same for them, as well. That's what I'm getting at. Tuvix existence doesn't automatically make him have a superior right to live than they do. Him living denies their existence. They have the same right to keep on living the same as he does.
They don't have any rights when they don't exist. They can't possess something when there is no them to take possession. Tuvix has rights because he exists.
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AManFromEarthLet's get to twerk!The King in the SwampRegistered Userregular
You know what my biggest problem was with Tuvix? I don't care that Janeway murdered him to get Tuvok and dumbass back, I care that there was never any fallout. Same with O'Brien and space prision and Picard with the Borg. These are events that should have had much more of an effect on their psyche than they did (outside of the specific episodes they happened in).
I finally stumbled across the Star Trek thread, finally.
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
Subconsciously it may have influenced me. TNG and TOS, in particular.
It didn't effect me like it did you, though. I'm a bit of a pessimist about humans surviving the next few hundred years with global warming occurring and humanity sitting in our asses doing nothing about it. For all out accomplishments we've let our worst impulses take over when we need them most, even today, in matters that effect us all like politics & business. This is kinda why DS9 is still my favorite Trek series. It doesn't pretend those problems don't exist and has characters willing to confront them head on.
I do love that about DS9: it uses alien conflicts to tackle issues of racism, genocide, and war. I think the ways in which the show handled the portrayal of mankind & ethics differently can be explained by Gene Roddenberry's passing away. He was alive at its conception, but was never directly involved.
Agreed.
One of my favorites from DS9 "Far Beyond the Stars" where the Prophets give Sisko a vision of living as a black science fiction writer in 1950s. It's really poignant.
Been years since I've watched the show (thank god for Netflix and Amazon) but that sounds like cool. Very impressive that they'd take out all the Trek elements for a strictly drama episode.
What you two are discussing can be said of every Star Trek series, not just DS9. Tell me of a ST series that pretends problems don't exist or that portrays main characters unwilling to confront them(at least for the most part). Without hyperbole.
I wouldn't describe the other series in that way. I think the difference is that there are many, many more "win-win" endings in, for instance, TNG.
In DS9 situations arise more often where one good must be sacrificed for another, if greater, good. This usually results in more ambiguous consequences, which is probably easier to relate to for most of us living in the 21st century.
More importantly, the characters are not as easily classified into categories of good and bad. While the crew of the Enterprise experience feelings of selfishness, hate, and anger at times, they seem to have a very strong sense of right and wrong. We always know they are aligned with each other, and with Starfleet... (unless Starfleet command has been taken over by a parasitic alien race or somesuch thing) whereas in DS9, we often wonder who's side everyone is on. Especially with Quark, Garak, and Kira. Trust and deception seem to be major continuing themes.
Posts
That a subsystem of a ship uses such a completely different power source that it can never be used for other things? In a show where they've literally integrated tech from species they met five minutes ago?
I mean it's a system that would need a hell of a lot of power to operate. That said, they should have cannibalized its power source the first week to add to the ship's energy supply when they were stranded.
But because the writers didn't want to risk losing holodeck episodes, it was decided that the power supply for the holodecks was completely separate from the rest of the ship systems and couldn't be jury rigged into powering actually vital ship systems. Despite the fact that Starfleet engineers are known throughout the galaxy as being able to build a subspace radio in a cave with a box of scraps, somehow they couldn't rig together a power adapter that would have let the ship tap into it.
And it's that second part that defies all logic.
They learned after all that shit in TNG went down to completely firewall off the holodeck from everything else. That thing is ground zero for half the major catastrophes in the show.
But yeah they never mention it has seperate power again, and are always talking about diverting power from/to it.
I'm serious, when crew in the holodeck are in danger they can't just turn the fucking thing off
I'm not sure if this has been brought up before in 86 pages, but I always like to ask other Trek fans about this... I (in all seriousness) find that I've referred to Trek (especially TNG) as my moral compass. I don't think I've ever really disagreed with the resolution of any ethical dilemma presented in that series. This is my biggest reason for loving the franchise; it gives me hope that one day human beings will "evolve" to a point where reason, not dogma, will prevail. And compassion will not be something only taught through religious teachings, but a necessary part of any well-lubricated, functioning society.
So I guess what I want to know is... does anyone else feel that ST inspires them in this way, as opposed to simply enjoying it for the sake of great storytelling?
One word.
Tuvix.
TOS to DS9, maybe. But anyone using VOY or ENT as a moral compass will end up in jail, with good reason.
Subconsciously it may have influenced me. TNG and TOS, in particular.
It didn't effect me like it did you, though. I'm a bit of a pessimist about humans surviving the next few hundred years with global warming occurring and humanity sitting in our asses doing nothing about it. For all our accomplishments we've let our worst impulses take over when we need them most, even today, in matters that effect us all like politics & business. This is kinda why DS9 is still my favorite Trek series. It doesn't pretend those problems don't exist and has characters willing to confront them head on.
Yeah I was thinking not as much VOY/ENT. I actually only watched two Enterprise episodes and gave up, so I'm not too familiar with it. Voyager I loved as a teen because I had a crush on Tom Paris (forgive me) but it never held me in the way that the other shows did. Too soap opera-ish at times. Nevertheless, it had it's bright moments, and I did appreciate the Tuvix episode!
The Tuvix episode is awful.
After that I find Janeway completely irredeemable.
I do love that about DS9: it uses alien conflicts to tackle issues of racism, genocide, and war. I think the ways in which the show handled the portrayal of mankind & ethics differently can be explained by Gene Roddenberry's passing away. He was alive at its conception, but was never directly involved.
One of my favorites from DS9 "Far Beyond the Stars" where the Prophets give Sisko a vision of living as a black science fiction writer in 1950s. It's really poignant.
Watch more ENT. It's far superior to VOY, especially in its last season when competent people take over the show. I highly recommend the Vulcan based episodes in the forth season.
Lol I know that Voyager and its many silly episodes will be argued about till the end of time, I personally don't think it's awful like others do, just not as good as the other series. More drama and camp than science fiction but what can you do.
I promise you that I will actually do this based on your recommendation.
Agreed.
Been years since I've watched the show (thank god for Netflix and Amazon) but that sounds like cool. Very impressive that they'd take out all the Trek elements for a strictly drama episode.
It ended with Janeway murdering someone!
It really isn't. Enterprise has better, more interesting characters. The majority of the episodes are actually enjoyable, has greater continuity & the writing has higher quality consistantly. The last season also has a showrunner who comes close to fulfilling the series potential.
I especially don't agree with that character bit. ENT has terrible characters through and through.
The situation was astronomically unique (as many ST situations are), and you could say that she was acting on behalf of the two men (who's lives had been put in her hands) in their absence. I don't think it's necessarily what I would've done in that situation but I don't think it's as black and white as murder.
The main characters in Enterprise were far more entertaining to watch then Voyager's IMO. Excluding the Doctor, he was Voyager's best character.
None of that matters. There was a sentient sapient creature who had decided he didn't want to have a procedure preformed on him that would either kill him or make him lesser, depending on how you look at it, and then she did it anyway.
On the other hand Tuvix's mere existence means he technically killed them. Don't they have the right to continue their lives, just as much as he does?
He didn't kill them. The freak accident that created him did. Both sides couldn't survive but one group was already dead and one you had to kill.
Plus the way he described it both characters were a part of him. If so the only wholly unique thing that died either way was Tuvix. But that's a very moral-free argument I prefer not to use.
Only they weren't dead, they were fused into a third entity. The reason I use the word "killed" is because you think he died when he didn't exist anymore. He may not have caused the accident that made him but his existence ended their's. His existence makes them dead since they no longer existed with him around. If he died when Janeway reversed the process, so did they when he was born.
Neelix and Tuvak were unique beings, too. Not on his level from a scientific point of view, but unique all the same.
Tuvix was according to himself everything they were. And yes we're using "killed" to describe a more nebulous concept, that doesn't change the fact that the creature that sat there was alive. By being alive it had rights. Even if you decided that Tuvok and Neelix's rights matter more then his, which you would have to to justify killing him for them, it's made painfully clear that they didn't do it because it was the moral thing to do but because they liked Tuvok and Neelix better.
The situation is more complex then that IMO. If Tuvix really did die then you're right Janeway was guilty of murder. Unfortunately there's more at stake then him. His existence is a death sentence for Neelix and Tuvak. That's why it makes the situation very unique. Usually when someone dies they won't split into two entities who "died" so the third entity could exist.
Either way it's a bad situation for someone. Somebody has to die for the others to live, which would have still occurred even had Janeway kept him alive.
What you two are discussing can be said of every Star Trek series, not just DS9. Tell me of a ST series that pretends problems don't exist or that portrays main characters unwilling to confront them(at least for the most part). Without hyperbole.
They did confront humanity's problems, that's true. DS9 did a much better, less jaded take on the subject. TOS comes the closest next to DS9, but TNG*, Voyager & Enterprise were terrible at it IMO.
* With exceptions like "The Drumhead"
Of course his existence ended their's. The fact they came back once the process was reversed proves it. He didn't have to exist previously to "kill" them. All he had to do was exist to keep them "dead". Being alive is a crucial element in why they no longer existed.
Were this is a normal death, I'd agree. I'm not talking about the event which caused Tuvix' existence. He had no role in that. However, every second after that his existence kept them from living again.
But they were already dead.
They could easily have added in something to explain why Tuvix had to go away, some kind of medicotechnobabble or something. Instead they went with the Stargate Atlantis justification: It's okay cause it saves our main characters. I loved SGA, but those guys had some fucked up morals at times.
It's the same for them, as well. That's what I'm getting at. Tuvix existence doesn't automatically make him have a superior right to live than they do. Him living denies their existence. They have the same right to keep on living the same as he does.
I wouldn't describe the other series in that way. I think the difference is that there are many, many more "win-win" endings in, for instance, TNG.
In DS9 situations arise more often where one good must be sacrificed for another, if greater, good. This usually results in more ambiguous consequences, which is probably easier to relate to for most of us living in the 21st century.
More importantly, the characters are not as easily classified into categories of good and bad. While the crew of the Enterprise experience feelings of selfishness, hate, and anger at times, they seem to have a very strong sense of right and wrong. We always know they are aligned with each other, and with Starfleet... (unless Starfleet command has been taken over by a parasitic alien race or somesuch thing) whereas in DS9, we often wonder who's side everyone is on. Especially with Quark, Garak, and Kira. Trust and deception seem to be major continuing themes.