The Trolley problem isn't a litmus test. It's not designed to determine "who is what" of anything. It simply frames the ethical problems of unjustly penalizing one or more individuals to positively impact the outcome of another more numerous set of individuals.
"In the Pale Moonlight" involves much more than just a Trolley problem. It is a character study of an individual, and the lengths he would go to ensure the safety of an extended community. In the case of a Pale Moonlight, the stakes are weighted HEAVILY more toward the multiple individuals, because the death of one Romulan Senator (who already is "an enemy" of the Federation, despite being reluctant allies) will manipulate the Romulans to assist in the war, which will determine the fate of all races and governments in the Alpha Quadrant. Sisko also tried to use deceptive means first, and he wasn't the direct agent of the actual killing (although he assumed responsibility because of his moral character). But despite his moral objections and guilty conscience, he states very plainly that he would do it all again in a heartbeat.
But this is NOT agonizing for the viewer. As guilty as Sisko may feel, his actions are entirely justified by the observers. He is trying to do the most good, by deceiving and ultimately eliminating a villain who is in his way. You won't find many people who would say "Oh, but you should not deceive/assassinate that poor innocent Romulan." The ends sometimes do justify the means, and television viewers recognize this difference. "In the Pale Moonlight" isn't interesting because of its Trolley problem (which, when it comes to the death of the individual, is downplayed to Act 5, after the climax), it's interesting because it's about Ben Sisko.
"Tuvix" and its Trolley problem are more grey and muddled than "In a Pale Moonlight". It involves a smaller group of people (Tuvok and Neelix) who are beloved as a member of an extended family. The "greater good" amounts to a bare majority, 2 versus 1. Again, the fewer people in the majority, the more grey the answers are. The closer the relationship to the potential victims, the more grey it is. The deck isn't "stacked too far to one side", it's balanced in such a way as to cause strife and division, unlike "In a Pale Moonlight". The decision SHOULD be agonizing, and it clearly was. This is not a decision that any of the characters state that "they would do again in a heartbeat", although we really aren't privy to what their thoughts were afterwards. I find "Tuvix" to be more thought-provoking than "In the Pale Moonlight", precisely because the ethical dilemma is more jarring and less clear-cut, but it is less compelling because it isn't about someone as interesting as Ben Sisko.
Yeah, "In The Pale Moonlight" is about Sisko and HIS dilemma on the issue. It's about how far he's willing to give up on his morals to save the Federation.
That was kinda my point in bringing it up. Hahnsoo said there are no unsuccessful trolley problems, and that's my Star Trek example of one. That episode is not about the problem itself because it is so one-sided pretty much no one is going to say Sisko was wrong (except in the sense that it could have backfired). The episode works because it's all about Sisko accepting what he has done and why it needed to be done. If the episode tried to play up the "what would you do!?" question, the episode would have failed.
Tuvix is very much about the problem, and like the "In the Pale Moonlight" situation, the Trolley problem is weighted to one side making it a terrible moral dilemma. It's no where near as extreme as Sisko's problem, but I'm not sure how many people are going to walk away from Tuvix thinking Janeway and crew made the right call. I feel that the pleading for his life, the resurrection of the dead, and the selfishness of the crew really overshadow the simple one life vs. two that's the heart of the trolley problem.
I suppose what I am saying is, that in terms of episodes of Trek that make you think about the right and wrong of a situation. "Tuvix" is pretty low on the list, but if handled better would have been much higher.
A good ending for that would be that either they never had the power to reverse the situation so they're stuck with him or they kill Tuvix trying to bring their team mates back only it fails, but that may have been too dark for Voyager.
The Trolley problem isn't a litmus test. It's not designed to determine "who is what" of anything. It simply frames the ethical problems of unjustly penalizing one or more individuals to positively impact the outcome of another more numerous set of individuals.
"In the Pale Moonlight" involves much more than just a Trolley problem. It is a character study of an individual, and the lengths he would go to ensure the safety of an extended community. In the case of a Pale Moonlight, the stakes are weighted HEAVILY more toward the multiple individuals, because the death of one Romulan Senator (who already is "an enemy" of the Federation, despite being reluctant allies) will manipulate the Romulans to assist in the war, which will determine the fate of all races and governments in the Alpha Quadrant. Sisko also tried to use deceptive means first, and he wasn't the direct agent of the actual killing (although he assumed responsibility because of his moral character). But despite his moral objections and guilty conscience, he states very plainly that he would do it all again in a heartbeat.
But this is NOT agonizing for the viewer. As guilty as Sisko may feel, his actions are entirely justified by the observers. He is trying to do the most good, by deceiving and ultimately eliminating a villain who is in his way. You won't find many people who would say "Oh, but you should not deceive/assassinate that poor innocent Romulan." The ends sometimes do justify the means, and television viewers recognize this difference. "In the Pale Moonlight" isn't interesting because of its Trolley problem (which, when it comes to the death of the individual, is downplayed to Act 5, after the climax), it's interesting because it's about Ben Sisko.
"Tuvix" and its Trolley problem are more grey and muddled than "In a Pale Moonlight". It involves a smaller group of people (Tuvok and Neelix) who are beloved as a member of an extended family. The "greater good" amounts to a bare majority, 2 versus 1. Again, the fewer people in the majority, the more grey the answers are. The closer the relationship to the potential victims, the more grey it is. The deck isn't "stacked too far to one side", it's balanced in such a way as to cause strife and division, unlike "In a Pale Moonlight". The decision SHOULD be agonizing, and it clearly was. This is not a decision that any of the characters state that "they would do again in a heartbeat", although we really aren't privy to what their thoughts were afterwards. I find "Tuvix" to be more thought-provoking than "In the Pale Moonlight", precisely because the ethical dilemma is more jarring and less clear-cut, but it is less compelling because it isn't about someone as interesting as Ben Sisko.
Yeah, "In The Pale Moonlight" is about Sisko and HIS dilemma on the issue. It's about how far he's willing to give up on his morals to save the Federation.
That was kinda my point in bringing it up. Hahnsoo said there are no unsuccessful trolley problems, and that's my Star Trek example of one. That episode is not about the problem itself because it is so one-sided pretty much no one is going to say Sisko was wrong (except in the sense that it could have backfired). The episode works because it's all about Sisko accepting what he has done and why it needed to be done. If the episode tried to play up the "what would you do!?" question, the episode would have failed.
Tuvix is very much about the problem, and like the "In the Pale Moonlight" situation, the Trolley problem is weighted to one side making it a terrible moral dilemma. It's no where near as extreme as Sisko's problem, but I'm not sure how many people are going to walk away from Tuvix thinking Janeway and crew made the right call. I feel that the pleading for his life, the resurrection of the dead, and the selfishness of the crew really overshadow the simple one life vs. two that's the heart of the trolley problem.
I suppose what I am saying is, that in terms of episodes of Trek that make you think about the right and wrong of a situation. "Tuvix" is pretty low on the list, but if handled better would have been much higher.
I think they perfectly underscored it. You aren't supposed to walk away necessarily thinking they made the right call. You are supposed to wonder whether they did and why they made it. And the pleading and the Doctor's objection and Janeway's face while she does it is all supposed to underscore this idea that this may not be the right decision but at the same time it's the decision the characters would choose. The selfishness you feel is there is counteracted (or supposed to be anyway) by the fact that you don't want the characters in question to die either.
I think it does an excellent job of muddying the waters in how you feel about the situation. Although it could have done much better imo (by, say, focusing on things like Tuvok's skills and abilities being necessary for the ship to survive. There's a later episode with the Doctor that does a similar thing, but chickens out on it).
It's also an episode that made the reset button actually count for something, which is a nice change of pace.
There are no unsuccessful or successful Trolley problems, unless you are using some weird metric of success as in "how fuzzy this episode made me feel" or "how interesting the solution was". It is a dilemma of balancing wrongs. No matter what you choose to do, moral injustice is being committed against someone. There is no "wrong triumphed over right" or "right versus wrong" in those situations... the idea presented is that there is no way to quantify how morally wrong an action is based solely on the population of the victims involved. In the Pale Moonlight is less about its particular Trolley problem and more about the character study. It's not a presentation of an "unsuccessful Trolley problem", as Sisko grappled with a guilty conscience even though he wasn't the direct agent leading to the Romulan's death. Again, unless you are applying some bizarre entertainment metric to it, but there's no "Trolley problem success" scale. You wouldn't say that the Poseidon Venture or Titanic was a (un)successful disaster movie based solely on the nature of the disaster that takes place in it.
The Trolley problem isn't a simple "boil it down to actuarial mathematics", either. If you think that it is, you are ignoring the studies and arguments. It's a way to see that people draw the line differently when it comes to ethical and moral decisions, without placing judgments on the value of those decisions. It is not a simple problem (and yet, it happens all the time in real life... we are constantly weighing the harm we do to a minority to benefit the majority and whether this is morally just), and if anything, Tuvix highlights this.
If you sample a random population of viewers watching the episode, I guarantee you will get mixed results as to whether or not they thought Janeway was making the right decision. Everyone has a different perspective and sees a different context in that situation.
Off-Topic (as this discussion is derailing further): Interestingly enough, there are researchers that are showing that we act first, make a decision, then justify the decision with morality after the fact. It's part of our humanity, part of how we create the story afterwards to frame our actions in the past.
So, watching through season three of Voyager with the wife. Last night included the episode "Darkling" AKA the Doctor plays a bad guy. Something that bothered me and I'll spoiler just in case.
So Kes and Neelix are no longer a thing apparently. And this is just mentioned in a line of dialogue, we don't actually see the breakup. I'm fine with them not being a couple any longer, but did I miss something in an earlier episode, or was it just decided they could write more interesting stories with the two of them separated?
So, watching through season three of Voyager with the wife. Last night included the episode "Darkling" AKA the Doctor plays a bad guy. Something that bothered me and I'll spoiler just in case.
So Kes and Neelix are no longer a thing apparently. And this is just mentioned in a line of dialogue, we don't actually see the breakup. I'm fine with them not being a couple any longer, but did I miss something in an earlier episode, or was it just decided they could write more interesting stories with the two of them separated?
Not one of Kes' better episodes. I didn't care much for her anyway, though I was glad to finally see a humanoid species that lived MUCH less than a human. We had the Vulcans, Klingons and Romulans, El Aurians, etc. that lived longer. Why not have a species live in dog years too?
Not one of Kes' better episodes. I didn't care much for her anyway, though I was glad to finally see a humanoid species that lived MUCH less than a human. We had the Vulcans, Klingons and Romulans, El Aurians, etc. that lived longer. Why not have a species live in dog years too?
Kes was one of my favorite characters. It was sad when she left.
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
It was as good of an excuse as any. You have to remember, that until Voyager arrived the only outsiders Kes had seen were Neelix and the Kazon. All of a sudden, she gets to see what a loser Neelix is in contrast to more normal people. The surprising part is that they stayed together as long as they did.
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
I agree, bad writing. It bothered me because both of us asked each other "So, when did that happen?" The answer being "when one of them was possessed by an outside entity" is frankly, the highest fucking form of gooseitude.
I agree, bad writing. It bothered me because both of us asked each other "So, when did that happen?" The answer being "when one of them was possessed by an outside entity" is frankly, the highest fucking form of gooseitude.
It can't be the highest form of gooseitude. There's still like 4 seasons left. They can do better!
So you're saying we should prepare for it to get even worse? But, the Doctor gets a family episode is soon. I've seen that one before, I remember it being good. And we already made it past Threshold. Ah well. Overall, the time spent has been enjoyable, even with some of the "that one wasn't so good" remarks we've made. I can tell Voyager will not be our favorite when all is said and done. TNG and DS9 will probably have to fight that out.
So, I'm watching Enterprise. Not only is the show not as bad as I'd figured, I'm finding that I really like Cpt. Archer.
The theme song still eats rotten horse balls, though.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
The captain archer that starts the show is pretty OK, but the whiny "I don't want to found an organisation that will stabilise the quadrant and raise the standard of living for trillions of sentient beings; I've got to sacrifice myself to save Trip!" git that finishes the show is kind of annoying.
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
The answer is:
Bad Writing
I seem to remember the breakup being how Kess really felt, but she just never had the courage to stand up to Neelix because he rescued her.
Really their relationship is kind of creepy to begin with if you think about it, Neelix is exploiting the fact that he rescued her to pressure her into staying with him the whole time.
Captain Archer is a crazed homeless man they found and convinced to captain a starship.
Well, not really, but their attempt at making him "likable" and "quirky" made him insane and when combined with Berman's Fantastic Racism (he freaking HATES Vulcans) and B&B's utter lack of scientific understanding and their twisted morality makes him seem like a manic nutjob who hears voices.
Kind of like how Dr. Phlox is hilarious and likable right up until Dear Doctor.
The smiling doctor gives way to a genocidal madman, and my interest in watching the show dries up and blows away.
So you're saying we should prepare for it to get even worse? But, the Doctor gets a family episode is soon. I've seen that one before, I remember it being good. And we already made it past Threshold. Ah well. Overall, the time spent has been enjoyable, even with some of the "that one wasn't so good" remarks we've made. I can tell Voyager will not be our favorite when all is said and done. TNG and DS9 will probably have to fight that out.
That song is one of the best terrible songs. It reminds me of the ending song to every heartwarming late 80s/early 90s movie.
Also, yes, Enterprise leads off very promising. And in addition to character decay, they try WAY too hard to tie it in to the other trek stuff. I was really looking forward to more of a "Das Boot" Star Trek, but, alas, time travel rears its ugly head.
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
The answer is:
Bad Writing
I seem to remember the breakup being how Kess really felt, but she just never had the courage to stand up to Neelix because he rescued her.
Really their relationship is kind of creepy to begin with if you think about it, Neelix is exploiting the fact that he rescued her to pressure her into staying with him the whole time.
Man, next you'll be pointing out that legally he's a pedophile and their biology only makes sense if they were designed as a race of "toys" by a sociopathic bioengineer for creepy clientele.
Hell, certain states' interpretation of laws could make Star Trek Voyager child pornography, if they actually knew the plot.
Kind of like how Dr. Phlox is hilarious and likable right up until Dear Doctor.
The smiling doctor gives way to a genocidal madman, and my interest in watching the show dries up and blows away.
He continues to be likable and hilarious long after that episode. He's one of the few reasons to watch the show. It takes more than a bizarre Star Trek morality play to assassinate a character, for me. *shrugs* It's episodic television... therefore, I have the power to simply pick up and move onto the next episode.
Captain Archer is a crazed homeless man they found and convinced to captain a starship.
Well, not really, but their attempt at making him "likable" and "quirky" made him insane and when combined with Berman's Fantastic Racism (he freaking HATES Vulcans) and B&B's utter lack of scientific understanding and their twisted morality makes him seem like a manic nutjob who hears voices.
Kind of like how Dr. Phlox is hilarious and likable right up until Dear Doctor.
The smiling doctor gives way to a genocidal madman, and my interest in watching the show dries up and blows away.
Yeah... not really feeling any of that, honestly.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
The answer is:
Bad Writing
I seem to remember the breakup being how Kess really felt, but she just never had the courage to stand up to Neelix because he rescued her.
Really their relationship is kind of creepy to begin with if you think about it, Neelix is exploiting the fact that he rescued her to pressure her into staying with him the whole time.
Man, next you'll be pointing out that legally he's a pedophile and their biology only makes sense if they were designed as a race of "toys" by a sociopathic bioengineer for creepy clientele.
Hell, certain states' interpretation of laws could make Star Trek Voyager child pornography, if they actually knew the plot.
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
The answer is:
Bad Writing
I seem to remember the breakup being how Kess really felt, but she just never had the courage to stand up to Neelix because he rescued her.
Really their relationship is kind of creepy to begin with if you think about it, Neelix is exploiting the fact that he rescued her to pressure her into staying with him the whole time.
Man, next you'll be pointing out that legally he's a pedophile and their biology only makes sense if they were designed as a race of "toys" by a sociopathic bioengineer for creepy clientele.
Hell, certain states' interpretation of laws could make Star Trek Voyager child pornography, if they actually knew the plot.
I wasn't referring to her age, more that she's from a backwater that never encountered other races directly and he's a spaceman with a spaceship and saved her life, of course she went out with him. Go watch Neelix and Kes episodes, he's more than just annoying hes a total shithead who treats her like a moron
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
The answer is:
Bad Writing
I seem to remember the breakup being how Kess really felt, but she just never had the courage to stand up to Neelix because he rescued her.
Really their relationship is kind of creepy to begin with if you think about it, Neelix is exploiting the fact that he rescued her to pressure her into staying with him the whole time.
Man, next you'll be pointing out that legally he's a pedophile and their biology only makes sense if they were designed as a race of "toys" by a sociopathic bioengineer for creepy clientele.
Hell, certain states' interpretation of laws could make Star Trek Voyager child pornography, if they actually knew the plot.
HAHAHAHA! Don't be silly!
Ocampan biology doesn't make any sense.
What do you mean a race that can only produce a single offspring in its entire life doesn't make sense?
override367 on
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PentaghostClassification: NOT SO BADThe Southern OracleRegistered Userregular
One thing that bothered me about Voyager is Janeway continually said that they were looking for a way home to Earth. Considering that the Federation - and Voyager itself - is made up of many different species you'd think she'd stop being so arrogant and realise that some of her crew have no interest in getting to Earth at all.
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
The answer is:
Bad Writing
I seem to remember the breakup being how Kess really felt, but she just never had the courage to stand up to Neelix because he rescued her.
Really their relationship is kind of creepy to begin with if you think about it, Neelix is exploiting the fact that he rescued her to pressure her into staying with him the whole time.
Man, next you'll be pointing out that legally he's a pedophile and their biology only makes sense if they were designed as a race of "toys" by a sociopathic bioengineer for creepy clientele.
Hell, certain states' interpretation of laws could make Star Trek Voyager child pornography, if they actually knew the plot.
HAHAHAHA! Don't be silly!
Ocampan biology doesn't make any sense.
Well, you also have to remember that she's got a body temperature of about 18°C... which is a bit chilly. Must have been some very specific cliental.
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
The answer is:
Bad Writing
I seem to remember the breakup being how Kess really felt, but she just never had the courage to stand up to Neelix because he rescued her.
Really their relationship is kind of creepy to begin with if you think about it, Neelix is exploiting the fact that he rescued her to pressure her into staying with him the whole time.
Oh yeah, Neelix acts like he owns her. He is super jealous of ANYONE she pays the slightest bit of attention to. And on top of all of that, he tries to control her and her interests rather than celebrating her development. Yeah, the breakup is kind of glazed over, but her "the separation stands" argument is one of the stronger character moments in the series.
One thing that bothered me about Voyager is Janeway continually said that they were looking for a way home to Earth. Considering that the Federation - and Voyager itself - is made up of many different species you'd think she'd stop being so arrogant and realise that some of her crew have no interest in getting to Earth at all.
By the 5th season, it ends up that only two members of the crew have no interest in getting to Earth: Seven of Nine and Naomi Wildman. This is highlighted in the episode "Bliss".
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
The answer is:
Bad Writing
I seem to remember the breakup being how Kess really felt, but she just never had the courage to stand up to Neelix because he rescued her.
Really their relationship is kind of creepy to begin with if you think about it, Neelix is exploiting the fact that he rescued her to pressure her into staying with him the whole time.
Man, next you'll be pointing out that legally he's a pedophile and their biology only makes sense if they were designed as a race of "toys" by a sociopathic bioengineer for creepy clientele.
Hell, certain states' interpretation of laws could make Star Trek Voyager child pornography, if they actually knew the plot.
I wasn't referring to her age, more that she's from a backwater that never encountered other races directly and he's a spaceman with a spaceship and saved her life, of course she went out with him. Go watch Neelix and Kes episodes, he's more than just annoying hes a total shithead who treats her like a moron
Oh I know, I just wanted to add to the list of horrible, creepy exploitation and abuse tropes that her character represented. Hell her whole point was to be an innocent and docile little sex object for the creepier fanbase. A doll with sex appeal, an innocent who learns, an abused ex-slave being "saved", the bird with the broken wing, etc. And the weird part? Rumor has it that it was her or Harry Kim that were being booted, because they both were supposed to be representing the same general fetish and the show only needed one sexy prey for the sexual predators.
Also, yes, Enterprise leads off very promising. And in addition to character decay, they try WAY too hard to tie it in to the other trek stuff. I was really looking forward to more of a "Das Boot" Star Trek, but, alas, time travel rears its ugly head.
Enterprise leads off boring and goes downhill from there.
I quit long before it got bad because it just wasn't interesting at all.
I might be an odd one out, but I think early on what bothered me about enterprise was how often they seemed to point out the whole 'look what technology the federation doesn't have yet!' thing. Later on what bothered me was how it was terrible. But after finally being convinced to watch choice episodes of season 3 and especially 4, I really wish it had been given another year.
Enterprise started off by giving the most advanced ship of Earth to a group of hillbillies and sent them out into space as the ambassadors of Earth... I had a hard time buying into that premise. There's a certain amount of suspension of disbelief needed to watch any sci-fi show, but that went too far across the line for me. And, if for whatever reason they truly wanted to go with that premise, I'd expect the human race to be wiped out by about half way through the first season after they piss off the wrong people.
Yeah, and if earth was doing a big 'this is our first exploratory ship, let's go be diplomats' it's hard to believe they wouldn't have consulted the vulcans and gone along some sort of sane route of introduction to the local species in their part of the galaxy.
Yeah, we wrote off the breakup in "Warlord" as the dude controlling her. Didn't think that would actually stay that way. That doesn't logically make any sense.
The answer is:
Bad Writing
I seem to remember the breakup being how Kess really felt, but she just never had the courage to stand up to Neelix because he rescued her.
Really their relationship is kind of creepy to begin with if you think about it, Neelix is exploiting the fact that he rescued her to pressure her into staying with him the whole time.
Oh yeah, Neelix acts like he owns her. He is super jealous of ANYONE she pays the slightest bit of attention to. And on top of all of that, he tries to control her and her interests rather than celebrating her development. Yeah, the breakup is kind of glazed over, but her "the separation stands" argument is one of the stronger character moments in the series.
I was glad when the Neelix-Kes thing ended, their relationship was incredibly unhealthy and just downright offensive. Goofy stupid Neelix is way better than stupid controlling fuckwad Neelix.
Yeah, and if earth was doing a big 'this is our first exploratory ship, let's go be diplomats' it's hard to believe they wouldn't have consulted the vulcans and gone along some sort of sane route of introduction to the local species in their part of the galaxy.
Well the humans hated the Vulcans because they wouldnt help them go faster or whatever and the Vulcans wouldnt give them anything beyond their basic starcharts or something. Not the best explanation, but whatever.
Yeah, and if earth was doing a big 'this is our first exploratory ship, let's go be diplomats' it's hard to believe they wouldn't have consulted the vulcans and gone along some sort of sane route of introduction to the local species in their part of the galaxy.
Well the humans hated the Vulcans because they wouldnt help them go faster or whatever and the Vulcans wouldnt give them anything beyond their basic starcharts or something. Not the best explanation, but whatever.
Yeah, but you'd think that Earth wouldn't want to go and prove the Vulcans right, and instead give their ship to the best Earth has to offer.
Yeah, and if earth was doing a big 'this is our first exploratory ship, let's go be diplomats' it's hard to believe they wouldn't have consulted the vulcans and gone along some sort of sane route of introduction to the local species in their part of the galaxy.
Well the humans hated the Vulcans because they wouldnt help them go faster or whatever and the Vulcans wouldnt give them anything beyond their basic starcharts or something. Not the best explanation, but whatever.
Yeah, but you'd think that Earth wouldn't want to go and prove the Vulcans right, and instead give their ship to the best Earth has to offer.
I think Archer is supposed to be one of the best pilots, and he has experience designing ships or something. Hoshi is the best translator they have to offer, Engineer guy is supposed to be their best engineer. Helms guy is well acquainted with space? They should have brought a diplomat though.
Yeah, and if earth was doing a big 'this is our first exploratory ship, let's go be diplomats' it's hard to believe they wouldn't have consulted the vulcans and gone along some sort of sane route of introduction to the local species in their part of the galaxy.
Well the humans hated the Vulcans because they wouldnt help them go faster or whatever and the Vulcans wouldnt give them anything beyond their basic starcharts or something. Not the best explanation, but whatever.
Yeah, but you'd think that Earth wouldn't want to go and prove the Vulcans right, and instead give their ship to the best Earth has to offer.
I think Archer is supposed to be one of the best pilots, and he has experience designing ships or something. Hoshi is the best translator they have to offer, Engineer guy is supposed to be their best engineer. Helms guy is well acquainted with space? They should have brought a diplomat though.
Earth's best captain, Earth's best pilot, Earth's best translator... kinda makes me feel bad for Earth's best doctor, who got passed over for the alien doctor who just happened to be standing there.
And they should have brought along a scientist too, given how many scientific opportunities were lost. How many times did they skip over an asteroid or nebula or whatever that was completely unlike anything humanity had ever seen because it's "boring" and they'd rather visit the planet of the topless babes or some such?
And maybe the guy with Earth's best common sense, to tell them not to go camping on a planet no one's ever set foot on before without taking an environmental survey and making a weather scan to make sure they won't all die in the next 12 hours.
The captain archer that starts the show is pretty OK, but the whiny "I don't want to found an organisation that will stabilise the quadrant and raise the standard of living for trillions of sentient beings; I've got to sacrifice myself to save Trip!" git that finishes the show is kind of annoying.
That's character development. The Xindi war broke the man. That and constantly being around alien dicks.
When the Orion's kidnapped his crew to be sold on the inter-galactic sex slave black market it didn't help him trust in aliens, either.
Kind of like how Dr. Phlox is hilarious and likable right up until Dear Doctor.
The smiling doctor gives way to a genocidal madman, and my interest in watching the show dries up and blows away.
He continues to be likable and hilarious long after that episode. He's one of the few reasons to watch the show. It takes more than a bizarre Star Trek morality play to assassinate a character, for me. *shrugs* It's episodic television... therefore, I have the power to simply pick up and move onto the next episode.
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A good ending for that would be that either they never had the power to reverse the situation so they're stuck with him or they kill Tuvix trying to bring their team mates back only it fails, but that may have been too dark for Voyager.
I think they perfectly underscored it. You aren't supposed to walk away necessarily thinking they made the right call. You are supposed to wonder whether they did and why they made it. And the pleading and the Doctor's objection and Janeway's face while she does it is all supposed to underscore this idea that this may not be the right decision but at the same time it's the decision the characters would choose. The selfishness you feel is there is counteracted (or supposed to be anyway) by the fact that you don't want the characters in question to die either.
I think it does an excellent job of muddying the waters in how you feel about the situation. Although it could have done much better imo (by, say, focusing on things like Tuvok's skills and abilities being necessary for the ship to survive. There's a later episode with the Doctor that does a similar thing, but chickens out on it).
It's also an episode that made the reset button actually count for something, which is a nice change of pace.
The Trolley problem isn't a simple "boil it down to actuarial mathematics", either. If you think that it is, you are ignoring the studies and arguments. It's a way to see that people draw the line differently when it comes to ethical and moral decisions, without placing judgments on the value of those decisions. It is not a simple problem (and yet, it happens all the time in real life... we are constantly weighing the harm we do to a minority to benefit the majority and whether this is morally just), and if anything, Tuvix highlights this.
If you sample a random population of viewers watching the episode, I guarantee you will get mixed results as to whether or not they thought Janeway was making the right decision. Everyone has a different perspective and sees a different context in that situation.
Off-Topic (as this discussion is derailing further): Interestingly enough, there are researchers that are showing that we act first, make a decision, then justify the decision with morality after the fact. It's part of our humanity, part of how we create the story afterwards to frame our actions in the past.
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Kes was one of my favorite characters. It was sad when she left.
I guess no one bothered to tell Neelix what happened?
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Bad Writing
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It can't be the highest form of gooseitude. There's still like 4 seasons left. They can do better!
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The theme song still eats rotten horse balls, though.
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I seem to remember the breakup being how Kess really felt, but she just never had the courage to stand up to Neelix because he rescued her.
Really their relationship is kind of creepy to begin with if you think about it, Neelix is exploiting the fact that he rescued her to pressure her into staying with him the whole time.
Well, not really, but their attempt at making him "likable" and "quirky" made him insane and when combined with Berman's Fantastic Racism (he freaking HATES Vulcans) and B&B's utter lack of scientific understanding and their twisted morality makes him seem like a manic nutjob who hears voices.
Kind of like how Dr. Phlox is hilarious and likable right up until Dear Doctor.
That song is one of the best terrible songs. It reminds me of the ending song to every heartwarming late 80s/early 90s movie.
Also, yes, Enterprise leads off very promising. And in addition to character decay, they try WAY too hard to tie it in to the other trek stuff. I was really looking forward to more of a "Das Boot" Star Trek, but, alas, time travel rears its ugly head.
Man, next you'll be pointing out that legally he's a pedophile and their biology only makes sense if they were designed as a race of "toys" by a sociopathic bioengineer for creepy clientele.
Hell, certain states' interpretation of laws could make Star Trek Voyager child pornography, if they actually knew the plot.
Yeah... not really feeling any of that, honestly.
HAHAHAHA! Don't be silly!
Ocampan biology doesn't make any sense.
I wasn't referring to her age, more that she's from a backwater that never encountered other races directly and he's a spaceman with a spaceship and saved her life, of course she went out with him. Go watch Neelix and Kes episodes, he's more than just annoying hes a total shithead who treats her like a moron
What do you mean a race that can only produce a single offspring in its entire life doesn't make sense?
Well, you also have to remember that she's got a body temperature of about 18°C... which is a bit chilly. Must have been some very specific cliental.
Oh yeah, Neelix acts like he owns her. He is super jealous of ANYONE she pays the slightest bit of attention to. And on top of all of that, he tries to control her and her interests rather than celebrating her development. Yeah, the breakup is kind of glazed over, but her "the separation stands" argument is one of the stronger character moments in the series.
Oh I know, I just wanted to add to the list of horrible, creepy exploitation and abuse tropes that her character represented. Hell her whole point was to be an innocent and docile little sex object for the creepier fanbase. A doll with sex appeal, an innocent who learns, an abused ex-slave being "saved", the bird with the broken wing, etc. And the weird part? Rumor has it that it was her or Harry Kim that were being booted, because they both were supposed to be representing the same general fetish and the show only needed one sexy prey for the sexual predators.
Or at least that's what I heard.
Enterprise leads off boring and goes downhill from there.
I quit long before it got bad because it just wasn't interesting at all.
I was glad when the Neelix-Kes thing ended, their relationship was incredibly unhealthy and just downright offensive. Goofy stupid Neelix is way better than stupid controlling fuckwad Neelix.
Well the humans hated the Vulcans because they wouldnt help them go faster or whatever and the Vulcans wouldnt give them anything beyond their basic starcharts or something. Not the best explanation, but whatever.
Yeah, but you'd think that Earth wouldn't want to go and prove the Vulcans right, and instead give their ship to the best Earth has to offer.
I think Archer is supposed to be one of the best pilots, and he has experience designing ships or something. Hoshi is the best translator they have to offer, Engineer guy is supposed to be their best engineer. Helms guy is well acquainted with space? They should have brought a diplomat though.
Earth's best captain, Earth's best pilot, Earth's best translator... kinda makes me feel bad for Earth's best doctor, who got passed over for the alien doctor who just happened to be standing there.
And they should have brought along a scientist too, given how many scientific opportunities were lost. How many times did they skip over an asteroid or nebula or whatever that was completely unlike anything humanity had ever seen because it's "boring" and they'd rather visit the planet of the topless babes or some such?
And maybe the guy with Earth's best common sense, to tell them not to go camping on a planet no one's ever set foot on before without taking an environmental survey and making a weather scan to make sure they won't all die in the next 12 hours.
That's character development. The Xindi war broke the man. That and constantly being around alien dicks.
Enterprise isn't episodic, it's a serial.