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Star Trek is Our Business

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Posts

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Pentaghost wrote: »
    So why exactly do Klingon ships have cloaking devices? Being stealthy/sneaky seems completely antithetical to their warrior philosophy. I don't seem to recall any justification for it in the shows, although I never watched TOS.

    Because when ti comes to ship combat, they aren't stupid enough to discount the tactical gain of invisibility?

  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    Because in TOS Klingons were sneaky Soviet replacement aliens and if you really look at their warrior code they fucking love ambushes.

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  • PentaghostPentaghost Registered User regular
    I agree with the tactical advantage thing, it just seems like the Klingons would be the last race in the entire Alpha Quadrant to use them.

  • AManFromEarthAManFromEarth Let's get to twerk! The King in the SwampRegistered User regular
    Star Trek III needed a villain who could surprise Kirk over Genesis. QED.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Pentaghost wrote: »
    I agree with the tactical advantage thing, it just seems like the Klingons would be the last race in the entire Alpha Quadrant to use them.

    They'd be the last to develop them, sure. But then, they just ransomed them from the Romulans.

    They'd certainly use them though. They aren't stupid in space combat.

    Ground combat, on the other hand...

  • Boring7Boring7 Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Pentaghost wrote: »
    I agree with the tactical advantage thing, it just seems like the Klingons would be the last race in the entire Alpha Quadrant to use them.

    They'd be the last to develop them, sure. But then, they just ransomed them from the Romulans.

    They'd certainly use them though. They aren't stupid in space combat.

    Ground combat, on the other hand...

    The Klingons have cloak because Captain Archer gave it to them when he told them about that alien ship that got Catfish Tucker man-preggers.

    And now that you hate me forever, presumably the Great Houses which considered cloaking tech dishonorable LOST that particular war and by the time more honorable leadership came to power again everybody had them and decades of doctrine had been dedicated to their use.

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  • emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Pentaghost wrote: »
    I agree with the tactical advantage thing, it just seems like the Klingons would be the last race in the entire Alpha Quadrant to use them.

    They'd be the last to develop them, sure. But then, they just ransomed them from the Romulans.

    They'd certainly use them though. They aren't stupid in space combat.

    Ground combat, on the other hand...

    Sometimes the guy who brings the knife to a gun fight wins, because clearly that dude is fucking crazy.

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  • RenaissanceDanRenaissanceDan Registered User
    emp123 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Pentaghost wrote: »
    I agree with the tactical advantage thing, it just seems like the Klingons would be the last race in the entire Alpha Quadrant to use them.

    They'd be the last to develop them, sure. But then, they just ransomed them from the Romulans.

    They'd certainly use them though. They aren't stupid in space combat.

    Ground combat, on the other hand...

    Sometimes the guy who brings the knife to a gun fight wins, because clearly that dude is fucking crazy.

    Klingons just have to get base-to-base contact. Then it's attack of opportunity city on the idiots with phasers. And a Bat'leth does +4d6 on AoO.

  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Pentaghost wrote: »
    So why exactly do Klingon ships have cloaking devices? Being stealthy/sneaky seems completely antithetical to their warrior philosophy. I don't seem to recall any justification for it in the shows, although I never watched TOS.

    To quote Worf: "In war, nothing is more honorable than victory."

    Also because the TOS Klingons were kind of a metaphor for the Soviets and we all know how sneaky they were.

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  • Xenogears of BoreXenogears of Bore Registered User regular
    Klingons aren't the fucking clans from Battletech, they'll do whatever it takes to win in battle and call it honorable afterwards.

    It's partly why Worf and clone Kahless just don't really fit in with the rest of modern Klingons.

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  • ArchonexArchonex Registered User
    edited March 2012
    emp123 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Pentaghost wrote: »
    I agree with the tactical advantage thing, it just seems like the Klingons would be the last race in the entire Alpha Quadrant to use them.

    They'd be the last to develop them, sure. But then, they just ransomed them from the Romulans.

    They'd certainly use them though. They aren't stupid in space combat.

    Ground combat, on the other hand...

    Sometimes the guy who brings the knife to a gun fight wins, because clearly that dude is fucking crazy.

    Also, it's actually a good idea to bring a knife to a gun fight if you're going to be close to the guy wielding the gun.

    Turns out a bladed, slicing implement is much more useful in close quarters, then the thing that requires you to aim the tip of it to do significant damage. This is partially because a gunman would only get a shot or two at most off past a certain distance before someone with a knife could close on them and start hacking vital bits up. Most TV shows don't reflect that that well though, Star Trek included.

    Which is funny, since Star Trek is one of the series that it really should have given that props too. I'm pretty sure phasers don't even have a muzzle blast like real guns do, and there's no issue of recoil skewing things. On top of that, even if someone pins you to the ground, you couldn't hope to stun them with the muzzle blast on particularly powerful guns (It can burn the shit out of you.), so there's that too.

    By all accounts that makes the Klingons one of the smarter races. As (sometimes) evidenced by the fact of how they pretty much fuck up anything that gets in melee range of them unless they have plot armor. If the writers used beaming tech properly (Beam a horde of them right on top of the defenders.), most of the DS9 episodes with them as a villain would have ended pretty fast.

    Hell, like I posted before, Worf has an absurd Borg kill count in First Contact. Everyone else is bawling about how their space age weaponry isn't working, and meanwhile, he's tearing through them by the dozen and tying off any bad wounds to his limbs with their severed arms/arm cabling while wondering what the big deal is.

    Klingons were always hypocrites in the series, though. They use honor as an excuse to justify many of their actions. Worf is basically the equivalent of a Klingon fanboy.

    Archonex on
  • RenaissanceDanRenaissanceDan Registered User
    Also, I never really understood why the beam weapons were fired like projectile weapons. You never saw someone just hold down the phaser fire button and just hose a group of people down: It was always individual blasts.

    I mean, I could be wrong on the functionality of them. But it seems like you could just make an arc and mow down a hallway or line of advancing guys and not have to draw individual beads for each shot.

  • GarthorGarthor Registered User regular
    Also, I never really understood why the beam weapons were fired like projectile weapons. You never saw someone just hold down the phaser fire button and just hose a group of people down: It was always individual blasts.

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  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Archonex, the thing about knives is unless you're a trained ninja, you have to stab someone a whole bunch of times to actually make them fall over dead.

    Where as if you get shot almost anywhere with most kinds of firearms your ability to fight back drops to zero really fast. There's a reason special forces soldiers are trained to go for their gun above their pistol, even in close quarters (their entire close quarters training is designed around getting gun barrel to enemy and pulling trigger). Sure they're trained for knives too, incase their guns are jammed or out of ammo or whatever.

    When talking about Star Trek it gets really stupid, when you have Klingons fighting with bat'leths against weapons that have 100% instant stopping power. In TOS a starfleet captain killed thousands of people with a couple of hand phaser batteries who tried to charge him

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  • dlinfinitidlinfiniti Registered User regular
    unless you're fighting gorn
    if you're fighting gorn you're required to fight them hand to hand

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    dlinfiniti wrote: »
    unless you're fighting gorn
    if you're fighting gorn you're required to fight them hand to hand

    Until you can MacGuyver up a gun and then learn what an advanced race was trying to teach you. :P

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Archonex wrote: »
    emp123 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Pentaghost wrote: »
    I agree with the tactical advantage thing, it just seems like the Klingons would be the last race in the entire Alpha Quadrant to use them.

    They'd be the last to develop them, sure. But then, they just ransomed them from the Romulans.

    They'd certainly use them though. They aren't stupid in space combat.

    Ground combat, on the other hand...

    Sometimes the guy who brings the knife to a gun fight wins, because clearly that dude is fucking crazy.

    Also, it's actually a good idea to bring a knife to a gun fight if you're going to be close to the guy wielding the gun.

    Turns out a bladed, slicing implement is much more useful in close quarters, then the thing that requires you to aim the tip of it to do significant damage. This is partially because a gunman would only get a shot or two at most off past a certain distance before someone with a knife could close on them and start hacking vital bits up with little recourse in regards to the gunman easily defending himself with his weapon. Most TV shows don't reflect that that well though, Star Trek included.

    Which is funny, since Star Trek is one of the series that it really should have given that props too. I'm pretty sure Phasers don't even have a muzzle blast like real guns do, and there's no issue of recoil skewing things. On top of that, even if someone pins you to the ground, you couldn't hope to stun them with the muzzle blast on particularly powerful guns (It can burn the shit out of you.), so there's that too.

    By all accounts that makes the Klingons one of the smarter races. As (sometimes) evidenced by the fact of how they pretty much fuck up anything that gets in melee range of them unless they have plot armor. If the writers used beaming tech properly (Beam a horde of them right on top of the defenders.), most of the DS9 episodes with them as a villain would have ended pretty fast.

    Hell, like I posted before, Worf has an absurd Borg kill count in First Contact. Everyone else is bawling about how their space age weaponry isn't working, and meanwhile, he's tearing through them by the dozen and tying off any bad wounds to his limbs with their severed arms/arm cabling while wondering what the big deal is.

    Klingons were always hypocrites in the series, though. They use honor as an excuse to justify many of their actions. Worf is basically the equivalent of a Klingon fanboy.

    Most of the stuff on knife vs gun is for police and is based on pulling the weapon and centering it on the target. In a fight where you already have a bead on the target (like say a firefight mid-battle) a melee weapon is worthless. You will get shot long before you get anywhere close.

    Star Trek actually makes this EASIER since phasers don't seem to need to hit a vital spot to fuck you up and are (or should be) pretty damn accurate.

    Of course, Star Trek fighting at any level is ridiculous and makes no sense, so there you go.

  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    in TNG the descriptions made it seem like phasers on highest setting were weapons of mass destruction, however in the show they never fight with them on max setting (however data blows an aqueduct up with one)

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  • MyDcmbrMyDcmbr Registered User regular
    in TNG the descriptions made it seem like phasers on highest setting were weapons of mass destruction, however in the show they never fight with them on max setting (however data blows an aqueduct up with one)

    And that wasn't even on max, so he said.

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  • FoomyFoomy Registered User regular
    I always felt that Klingons fighting with melee would make a lot more sense if they all carried some sort of energy dampeners. Being well trained and armed with bladed weapons would be a huge advantage if your enemy suddenly couldn't use their phasers. But as far as I know they never use or mention anything like that.

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  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    Archonex wrote: »
    emp123 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Pentaghost wrote: »
    I agree with the tactical advantage thing, it just seems like the Klingons would be the last race in the entire Alpha Quadrant to use them.

    They'd be the last to develop them, sure. But then, they just ransomed them from the Romulans.

    They'd certainly use them though. They aren't stupid in space combat.

    Ground combat, on the other hand...

    Sometimes the guy who brings the knife to a gun fight wins, because clearly that dude is fucking crazy.

    Also, it's actually a good idea to bring a knife to a gun fight if you're going to be close to the guy wielding the gun.

    Turns out a bladed, slicing implement is much more useful in close quarters, then the thing that requires you to aim the tip of it to do significant damage. This is partially because a gunman would only get a shot or two at most off past a certain distance before someone with a knife could close on them and start hacking vital bits up with little recourse in regards to the gunman easily defending himself with his weapon. Most TV shows don't reflect that that well though, Star Trek included.

    Which is funny, since Star Trek is one of the series that it really should have given that props too. I'm pretty sure Phasers don't even have a muzzle blast like real guns do, and there's no issue of recoil skewing things. On top of that, even if someone pins you to the ground, you couldn't hope to stun them with the muzzle blast on particularly powerful guns (It can burn the shit out of you.), so there's that too.

    By all accounts that makes the Klingons one of the smarter races. As (sometimes) evidenced by the fact of how they pretty much fuck up anything that gets in melee range of them unless they have plot armor. If the writers used beaming tech properly (Beam a horde of them right on top of the defenders.), most of the DS9 episodes with them as a villain would have ended pretty fast.

    Hell, like I posted before, Worf has an absurd Borg kill count in First Contact. Everyone else is bawling about how their space age weaponry isn't working, and meanwhile, he's tearing through them by the dozen and tying off any bad wounds to his limbs with their severed arms/arm cabling while wondering what the big deal is.

    Klingons were always hypocrites in the series, though. They use honor as an excuse to justify many of their actions. Worf is basically the equivalent of a Klingon fanboy.

    They don't beam soldiers on top of defenders or beam defenders into space because beaming tech is really easy to jam, as are the sensors needed to get a transporter lock. After all, you don't want to beam your soldiers into the walls.

  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    It's best not to analyze star trek ground combat like, at all.

    Realize today, in 2012 (actually for 2 decades now) we've had bombs that break up into dozens of smaller bomblets, and each one individually can identify a hostile target and fire a sub-munition at it. With one bomb an entire enemy convoy can be destroyer, with precision.

    Now in star trek, with advanced robotics, power sources, anti gravity technology, and energy weapons of great destructive capability, a melon sized floating combat robot armed with a phaser emitter would be worth a hundred foot soldiers - you could even stick shields on it.

    When you realize how advanced targeting sensors would be in the future combined with their absurdly accurate and destructive firepower, conventional ground combat (in war) makes absolutely no sense in Star Trek

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  • LucidLucid Registered User regular
    Phasers;

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    MyDcmbr wrote: »
    in TNG the descriptions made it seem like phasers on highest setting were weapons of mass destruction, however in the show they never fight with them on max setting (however data blows an aqueduct up with one)

    And that wasn't even on max, so he said.

    From what I remember of stuff for the original series, a hand phaser at max power and wide dispersal could basically wipe out a small city.

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Though honestly that's not normally an option really.

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  • Boring7Boring7 Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    Foomy wrote: »
    I always felt that Klingons fighting with melee would make a lot more sense if they all carried some sort of energy dampeners. Being well trained and armed with bladed weapons would be a huge advantage if your enemy suddenly couldn't use their phasers. But as far as I know they never use or mention anything like that.

    Blood Oath featured an episode wherein they disabled the guns of a pirate leader enemy and proceeded to kick ass with their blades. Also To the Death had the lego phaser rifles fail due to the emissions from th-...due to technobabble. One of the extended universe non-canon novels set in TOS' era featured a Vietnam-like skirmish where Starfleet phasers had been disabled by some Klingon satellite trick but their disruptors and the locals' projectile-weapons (regular freakin' guns) worked. I believe Captain Kirk personally beat down a Klingon, stole his disruptor, then managed to get two shots off before the disruptor ran out of juice because it's power cell was off. Oddly enough this was just an opener and then they left this hot spot because something weird elsewhere was happening and this was just to show it was "srs bznss."

    In reference to other posts, phasers have made continuous-fire bursts, like when Belly-anna (whatever) has to burn through a force field to stop the giant cardassian smart(ish) missile before blah blah blah it's voyager who cares.
    When you realize how advanced targeting sensors would be in the future combined with their absurdly accurate and destructive firepower, conventional ground combat (in warthat even remotely involves people) makes absolutely no sense in Star Trek

    Fixed?

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  • ArchonexArchonex Registered User
    edited March 2012
    Archonex, the thing about knives is unless you're a trained ninja, you have to stab someone a whole bunch of times to actually make them fall over dead.

    Where as if you get shot almost anywhere with most kinds of firearms your ability to fight back drops to zero really fast. There's a reason special forces soldiers are trained to go for their gun above their pistol, even in close quarters (their entire close quarters training is designed around getting gun barrel to enemy and pulling trigger). Sure they're trained for knives too, incase their guns are jammed or out of ammo or whatever.

    When talking about Star Trek it gets really stupid, when you have Klingons fighting with bat'leths against weapons that have 100% instant stopping power. In TOS a starfleet captain killed thousands of people with a couple of hand phaser batteries who tried to charge him

    Somewhat true. It largely depends on a number of factors, though. If someone lands a solid stab in the neck or a tendon connected to the limb holding the gun, you're pretty much screwed no matter what. You don't really need to be a ninja to exploit the fact that human anatomy isn't really built to withstand the sort of punishment man-made weaponry inflicts these days.

    Any significant injury can pretty much take you out of the fight due to shock or pain unless you're pumped so full of adrenaline that you're in the midst of hulking out. Guns just have a range advantage. That's part of why if you're extremely close to someone who intends to, one hundred percent certain, shoot you, most of the self defense teachers and enthusiasts i've talked too say that if you're armed, you may as well take your chances. You're too far away for them to miss consistently (If at all.) if you try to run unless they're dangerously incompetent with a firearm, and you actually stand a decent chance of stopping them provided they aren't standing across a room.

    A gun would obviously be a better option if you had it, however.

    Funnily enough, I recall that famous DS9 episode "Way of the Warrior" actually putting that into play. Kira is blowing Klingons away with a phaser when a Klingon comes out of nowhere. She ends up getting stabbed in the side. She has just enough time to knock the Klingon out with hammy ToS era martial arts before what appears to be shock sets in and she's taken out of the fight.


    The whole "beaming is easy to jam" thing doesn't make sense, since the few times we've seen it employed in a "siege" setting (Way of the Warrior.), they were beaming Klingons directly into Ops. Except instead of doing what any intelligent person would do, and zerging the place with the fifty heavily armed warriors they sent in, they beamed them in in conveniently dramatic positions piecemeal instead.

    I think there was also a fairly funny scene (Wasn't intended that way, but it's hard not to chuckle when you think of it in context.) where two Klingons beam in and are immediately mowed down by a security officer who was basically spawn camping a beam in site.


    Star Trek is really weird with that sort of stuff. One minute they're consistent, and the next it's gone full on soap opera. Best not to think too hard about it, I guess, since it basically runs off of "Rule of Cool".

    Archonex on
  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    I think if it became a common tactic to beam all or units into the command building then tricking sensors into thinking the command building was somewhere else would turn into a common tactic.

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  • ArchonexArchonex Registered User
    edited March 2012
    I think if it became a common tactic to beam all or units into the command building then tricking sensors into thinking the command building was somewhere else would turn into a common tactic.

    The episode made it clear that they had many reserves. I'm pretty sure you could cram the thing full of Klingons to the point where they were packed in like sardines, and you'd still have enough spare men to do it again 40 times over.

    Way of the Warrior was the first time they used CG in a big way in the TV series. Which they exploited for all it was worth. There was literally a
    Spoiler:
    sieging the place. Nevermind that i'm sure the blueprints of what was where was probably common knowledge by then.

    It's just a plot hole, really. Sort of like why that huge Federation/Dominion fleet in Sacrifice of Angels is smashing into each other on an even plane in space, instead of them trying to maneuver around the other or for an advantage. It looked cool, so that's what they went with.

    Archonex on
  • RenaissanceDanRenaissanceDan Registered User
    I've also got to wonder if Klingon space travel didn't end up coming about the same way it did in the Mirror episode of Enterprise: aliens land, Klingons go "GETTEM AND TAKE THEIR SHIP!" Because you don't really see a lot of Klingon scientists. Or any, really. Or Klingons good at the delicate work it takes to keep all their tech running.

    I mean, unless they can all just Fonzie things into working order.

  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    I've also got to wonder if Klingon space travel didn't end up coming about the same way it did in the Mirror episode of Enterprise: aliens land, Klingons go "GETTEM AND TAKE THEIR SHIP!" Because you don't really see a lot of Klingon scientists. Or any, really. Or Klingons good at the delicate work it takes to keep all their tech running.

    I mean, unless they can all just Fonzie things into working order.

    Yeah, there's a back story somewhere about the early Klingons being enslaved by a race that dominated the sector, but Klingons revolted and kicked their ass and they dissipated.

    But frankly the much later (voyagerish) Klingons are barely smart enough to sweep the floors let alone keep a ship functional. So unless they enslaved a permanent tech support team it makes any scientific advancement rather unlikely.

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  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    there was a tng episode with a klingon scientist, i think everyone was shocked.

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  • override367override367 Registered User regular
    I wish more of trek looked at other aspects of Klingon life.

    I loved the Klingon lawyer, who had no shame in his profession, he just believed the courtroom was his battlefield.

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  • Pi-r8Pi-r8 Registered User regular
    I wish more of trek looked at other aspects of Klingon life.

    I loved the Klingon lawyer, who had no shame in his profession, he just believed the courtroom was his battlefield.

    yeah, and there was also the one where Quark discovered that someone was stealthily attacking the Duras sisters by undermining them financially. Klingon can be sneaky when they want to be.

  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Registered User regular
    Pi-r8 wrote: »
    I wish more of trek looked at other aspects of Klingon life.

    I loved the Klingon lawyer, who had no shame in his profession, he just believed the courtroom was his battlefield.

    yeah, and there was also the one where Quark discovered that someone was stealthily attacking the Duras sisters by undermining them financially. Klingon can be sneaky when they want to be.
    It wasn't one of the Duras sisters. It was a Klingon widow named Grillka of some other house, which then becomes the "House of Quark". This is one of the funnier Quark scenes (and Klingon scenes, for that matter) in DS9:


    Gowron with the confused look while holding the little datapad is priceless.

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  • emp123emp123 Registered User regular
    I sort of remember an episode of DS9 maybe where they actually talk about how not all Klingons are warriors, they just strive for honor in their respective fields and that warrior Klingons are the ones most people interact with because the other Klingons are busy doing their trade.

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  • Mr_RoseMr_Rose Registered User regular
    emp123 wrote: »
    I sort of remember an episode of DS9 maybe where they actually talk about how not all Klingons are warriors, they just strive for honor in their respective fields and that warrior Klingons are the ones most people interact with because the other Klingons are busy doing their trade.

    Yeah, they're always on about how dying in honourable battle is the greatest thing a Klingon warrior can achieve, but they never mention what the greatest thing a Klingon trader can achieve is. Possibly dying in honourable transaction?

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  • RenaissanceDanRenaissanceDan Registered User
    Mr_Rose wrote: »
    emp123 wrote: »
    I sort of remember an episode of DS9 maybe where they actually talk about how not all Klingons are warriors, they just strive for honor in their respective fields and that warrior Klingons are the ones most people interact with because the other Klingons are busy doing their trade.

    Yeah, they're always on about how dying in honourable battle is the greatest thing a Klingon warrior can achieve, but they never mention what the greatest thing a Klingon trader can achieve is. Possibly dying in honourable transaction?

    Scientist: To die in an honorable lab explosion, or to die of radiation poison from honorium.

    Chef: To die during Taargh butchering.

    Politician: To die on a diplomatic mission, causing an incident that provides an excuse for the empire to go to war.

  • Harry DresdenHarry Dresden Registered User regular
    edited March 2012
    emp123 wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Pentaghost wrote: »
    I agree with the tactical advantage thing, it just seems like the Klingons would be the last race in the entire Alpha Quadrant to use them.

    They'd be the last to develop them, sure. But then, they just ransomed them from the Romulans.

    They'd certainly use them though. They aren't stupid in space combat.

    Ground combat, on the other hand...

    Sometimes the guy who brings the knife to a gun fight wins, because clearly that dude is fucking crazy.

    Usually it's either the guy with the gun is incredibly incompetent with the weapon or the knife guy is a goddamn super-human entity that is immune to physics (like Val Armorr). That's why it's difficult for me to take close combat knife fighting Klingons against opponents with phasers seriously, excluding Red Shirts those people are to stupid to live.

    Being crazy only works if you can back it up. Otherwise they're easy pickings against competent opponents.

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  • CapfalconCapfalcon Tunnel Snakes Rule Capital WastelandRegistered User regular
    Scientist: To die in an honorable lab explosion, or to die of radiation poison from honorium.

    Chef: To die during Taargh butchering.

    Politician: To die on a diplomatic mission, causing an incident that provides an excuse for the empire to go to war.

    Doctor: To have the most people die honorably under you.

This discussion has been closed.