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New car is fuuuucked

13

Posts

  • 3lwap03lwap0 Registered User regular
    edited December 2011

    Do you have a Consumer Protection organization in your state, or is there a federal department that does that kind of thing? Contact them. You have been sold a lemon.

    Hi Figgy. Sorry as all hell to say this, but Chrishallet83 has the right of it - you've got a lemon. When you start to factor in all the time off you have to take to drop a car off the dealership, argue with mechanics, and generally be hassled, this car is costing you time and money. It isn't worth it. If you have a means of legal redress, I humbly suggest you do so immediately. Given what state/province you live in, there is usually a 30 day lemon law in effect - but, it could be considerably more or less depending where you live.

    In summary, you have a few options, but time could be a factor. It is best to get a new car from Toyota, or pursue them through the lemon laws applicable to where you live. Yeah, I know, it's a hassle. You've endured enough already over this shitty car. I sincerely hope you get this squared away, I'm pullin' for ya.


    Also, Toyota's customer service (corporate) #:

    Phone: 800-331-4331
    Fax: 310-468-7814
    Mon - Fri, 5:00 am - 6:00 pm PST
    Sat, 7:00 am - 4:00 pm PST

    Or send correspondence to: Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
    19001 South Western Ave.
    Dept. WC11
    Torrance, CA 90501

    3lwap0 on
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  • KillgrimageKillgrimage Registered User regular
    Figgy, I know next to nothing about cars, but this sounds like a super overt run around. You should look into lemon laws where you are, don't listen to what the GM says about them, he has no incentive to be truthful to you about lemon law and may actually be stringing you along until your window to get rid of the car relatively easily is closed. Don't take his word for it, don't wait another day to look it up and find out exactly what the law states and then dump this lousy car. I've been following this thread from the beginning and I'm pullin for you too.

  • MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    Figgy, I know next to nothing about cars, but this sounds like a super overt run around. You should look into lemon laws where you are, don't listen to what the GM says about them, he has no incentive to be truthful to you about lemon law and may actually be stringing you along until your window to get rid of the car relatively easily is closed. Don't take his word for it, don't wait another day to look it up and find out exactly what the law states and then dump this lousy car. I've been following this thread from the beginning and I'm pullin for you too.

    This. I would not be surprised if the dealership is trying to keep you busy until the window of opportunity for calling them out on a lemon law has passed.

  • EsseeEssee The pinkest of hair. Victoria, BCRegistered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Figgy, I know next to nothing about cars, but this sounds like a super overt run around. You should look into lemon laws where you are, don't listen to what the GM says about them, he has no incentive to be truthful to you about lemon law and may actually be stringing you along until your window to get rid of the car relatively easily is closed. Don't take his word for it, don't wait another day to look it up and find out exactly what the law states and then dump this lousy car. I've been following this thread from the beginning and I'm pullin for you too.

    This. I would not be surprised if the dealership is trying to keep you busy until the window of opportunity for calling them out on a lemon law has passed.

    Yeah, I don't have too much experience with this stuff myself, but considering your own dealership has been flat-out lying to your face, and the other dealership doesn't even seem to be telling you the full truth (the full truth being, as an example, "yeah that's super-low mpg, and the acceleration thing isn't normal... Maybe there's something that needs fixing the other dealership missed, bring it in and we'll take a look"), I suspect this is what they are trying to do. Maybe the other local dealership (the second one you talked to) even knows what's going on at your original dealership. Call Toyota and/or a lawyer.

    Essee on
  • SporkAndrewSporkAndrew Registered User, ClubPA regular
    Looks like the Canadian "Lemon Law" covers cars that are up to 4 years old.

    It recommends that you first talk to the dealer (which you've done) then take it up with the manufacturer itself (which you should do once you have some hard evidence of your MPG) before taking it up with them.

    They can institute the manufacturer buying the car back off you as well as paying for any out of pocket expenses, but it seems like it's a lengthy process. I guess all you can do is keep on keeping on and keep records of everything you've paid for in relation to getting the car looked at (including time off work, time spent in waiting rooms, etc)

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  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    Yeah, I'll get some more exact fuel numbers and see where we stand. It could very well be that:

    1) I'm not guaging the fuel consumption accurately. If there's still 7L or so in the tank when the needle is at the bottom of the guage, that makes a big difference.

    2) The lack of power could be something I'm noticing because of the 4 speed tranny.

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  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    Cylinders is a big thing too. If it's a 4 cyl engine, it's going to be suspiciously weak compared to a 6 or 8 cyl engine.

  • MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    Just to make sure - You are calculating your mileage by setting a trip meter right after you fill the tank up, drive around for a while, fill the tank to full again, and then divide the number of miles (km?) by how many gallons (liters?) you just put in the tank, right?

  • Zombie NirvanaZombie Nirvana Registered User regular
    Right, do what Mushroom says. Don't try and run the tank down.

    Fill up, reset, fill up. Take distance and 2nd fill-up volume as divisor. That'll give you your consumption rate. You could do it a couple times to get a better average if you wanted.

  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    it's suspicious to me that you can't roll the car. Can you roll it in neutral?

    "Maybe we're here to eat the sandwich." -- Joe Rogan
  • MushroomStickMushroomStick Registered User regular
    Also, was the car like this from the moment you drove it off the lot? And do you always go to the same gas station?

  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    it's suspicious to me that you can't roll the car. Can you roll it in neutral?

    I can roll it. It just feels difficult to do so. I could be imagining it.
    Also, was the car like this from the moment you drove it off the lot? And do you always go to the same gas station?

    I did notice the power difference immediately. And judging by the odometer being at 1900 (and -80 for starting KM) and 4 tanks of gas, the economy has always been poor.

    I'll get a proper reading next tank.

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  • NappuccinoNappuccino Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    bowen wrote:
    Cylinders is a big thing too. If it's a 4 cyl engine, it's going to be suspiciously weak compared to a 6 or 8 cyl engine.

    Even still, you shouldn't have to mash the accelerator just to go up a hill. I have an 07 matrix (4 cylinder)and, while it certaintly isn't a speed demon, I only have to floor it if i'm merging into insanely fast traffic. Otherwise a gentle push down is enough for everything, including keeping your speed as you go up most hills.

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  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    Yeah, true. Someone who's always driven a 6 will notice the differences in 4 though. But yeah it's not that bad.

  • EffefEffef Who said your opinion mattered, Jones? Registered User regular
    wmelon wrote:
    I've also generally notice a drop in fuel economy when they switch to the winter blend of gas. I usually lose a mile or two per gallon during the winter, which brings it down significantly now that almost all the stations around here are selling E15 exclusively.

    Ethanol's energy density is much less than gasoline, so the more ethanol they put in the gas the worse gas mileage you get.

    In a car with forced induction this is mostly offset by being able to run higher boost because of how ethanol resists detonation, which means you get more power. Running ethanol in a normally aspirated car that doesn't need the requisite octane boost really gives no benefit other than emissions.

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  • EffefEffef Who said your opinion mattered, Jones? Registered User regular
    bowen wrote:
    Yeah, true. Someone who's always driven a 6 will notice the differences in 4 though. But yeah it's not that bad.

    How many cylinders an engine has is not directly linked to how much power it makes. You can have a V8 with 400hp, a V6 with 400hp, or a inline or boxer 4 with 400hp. There differences come in regards to torque and horsepower made at any given RPM, and general driveability based upon another set of factors like boost levels and power curve.

    ox30LTf.gif
  • wmelonwmelon Registered User regular
    Effef wrote:
    wmelon wrote:
    I've also generally notice a drop in fuel economy when they switch to the winter blend of gas. I usually lose a mile or two per gallon during the winter, which brings it down significantly now that almost all the stations around here are selling E15 exclusively.

    Ethanol's energy density is much less than gasoline, so the more ethanol they put in the gas the worse gas mileage you get.

    In a car with forced induction this is mostly offset by being able to run higher boost because of how ethanol resists detonation, which means you get more power. Running ethanol in a normally aspirated car that doesn't need the requisite octane boost really gives no benefit other than emissions.

    Precisely, but there are different additives they add in the winter that they don't add in the summer, such as anti-gelling agents, that also negatively effect fuel efficiency.

  • EffefEffef Who said your opinion mattered, Jones? Registered User regular
    Ah, yeah. I forget sometimes that winter in other parts of the world doesn't just mean "well, id better put on my long shirt, its 40F outside".

    ox30LTf.gif
  • MidshipmanMidshipman Registered User regular
    Figgy wrote:
    Yeah, I'll get some more exact fuel numbers and see where we stand. It could very well be that:

    1) I'm not guaging the fuel consumption accurately. If there's still 7L or so in the tank when the needle is at the bottom of the guage, that makes a big difference.

    2) The lack of power could be something I'm noticing because of the 4 speed tranny.

    1) Measuring fuel consumption accurately is very easy. Top off the fuel tank and reset the trip meter on the odometer. Drive car. When it comes time to refuel, divide the mileage (kilometerage?) by the amount of fuel it takes to fully fill the tank. Reset the trip meter and you are ready for another round of measurement.

    2) Test drive an equivalent model to your car. This is harder to get a quantitative measurement on without timing 0-100 acceleration or distance from a stop, but you should be able to feel whether you car is performing similarly or not to the test drive car. If you are still going to try and work with the dealership, this would be the most obvious comparison as well. Have them drive an equivalent car and then have them drive your car back to back (preferably with you in the car both times).

    midshipman.jpg
  • GaslightGaslight Registered User regular
    As a point of reference: I drive a 2004 Honda Accord with a 160 horsepower 4-cylinder engine and a 4-speed automatic transmission. I literally never have to depress the gas pedal more than halfway at the most to easily accelerate up an uphill freeway entrance ramp.

    1Slimus.jpg
  • DibsDibs Registered User regular
    Why haven't you involved Toyota yet?

  • chrishallett83chrishallett83 Hi! Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    bowen wrote: »
    Cylinders is a big thing too. If it's a 4 cyl engine, it's going to be suspiciously weak compared to a 6 or 8 cyl engine.

    Not really, no. If you want I can show you a 2.2 litre 4 cylinder engine that puts out more power than two Corvettes...

    EDIT: Wait, no, three Corvettes.

    chrishallett83 on
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  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    Figgy to do some testing, fill the car up to the brim with fuel.

    Hit zero on the odometer and drive it round for a few days, if possible, note the percentage of highway/city driving you are doing.

    Then fill it up to the brim again.

    Keep both receipts and maybe photograph them next to the odometer.


    Eyeballing it and telling Toyota that "it's using a lot" doesn't mean much to them.

    Also jump in the car with the wifey and flat foot it on a straight piece of road and have her time 0-60 and 0-100. These are hard numbers that you can show to Toyota for basic performance.

  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Stop testing shit, you're wasting time.

    Something is not right, contact Toyota. This isn't some mystery you'll get to the bottom of if you figure out your actual mpg. All you're going to do is run out of time with regards to your legal recourse and ease at which you get it replaced/repaired. I know it sounds like a pain in the ass, but stop dicking around and contact Toyota if you haven't yet. At the very least you can start a paper trail so when it comes time to turn this thing in or force the dealer to buy it back you're already that much farther along.

    dispatch.o on
  • Blake TBlake T Registered User regular
    The first thing Toyota will say is what is wrong.

    If you tell them it doesn't seem to run well they will say that didn't mean jack. If you can tell them the fuel economy is xxx and the performance of the car is xxx. They will be able to say, yes that dies not seem correct.

    The testing is a paper trail.

    Additionally as someone said, if you are taking the car back under the lemon laws. You will need to have evidence.

  • JohnnyCacheJohnnyCache Starting Defense Registered User regular
    I agree on both the need to move quickly and the need to test. Fill it, drive it 50k, fill it again, and you should have a good mileage. Then involve toyota.

    I doubt that the dealer knows what is wrong and is stalling on purpose, but they are probably non-competent fuckfaces who don't want to waste a bunch of time digging through the thing to find the issue, and they're wasting your time.

    If the salesmen told me "I don't know much about the mechanical side of them" I would tell him, "Well, you do know they're supposed to run right when you sell them as new, right?"

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  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    I've got about 150KM on the current tank, so I'll fill it tomorrow and calculate the exact usage.

    Coming home from work tonight seemed fine. Was able to maintain speed and everything with very little pedal pressure. It's the damn hills that get me. I did notice that going up the bridge today, I had to really give the pedal a bit to get it to downshift. Was running about 4000-4500 RPM until it did that.

    What sort of economy loss am I going to see driving 120KM/HR as opposed to 100?

    Edit: And about calling corporate at this point, I don't think I have enough to go on. "I think the car isn't as powerful as it should be and it's guzzling gas" probably isn't enough. They'll tell me to take it to a dealer, and I'll have to say the dealer said it's fine. If I could then add "but I have paperwork here that shows I'm getting 60% economy and it takes x time to reach y speed with the gas pedal floored" that might hold more water.

    Figgy on
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  • HewnHewn Registered User regular
    Figgy wrote:
    Edit: And about calling corporate at this point, I don't think I have enough to go on. "I think the car isn't as powerful as it should be and it's guzzling gas" probably isn't enough. They'll tell me to take it to a dealer, and I'll have to say the dealer said it's fine. If I could then add "but I have paperwork here that shows I'm getting 60% economy and it takes x time to reach y speed with the gas pedal floored" that might hold more water.

    The fuel economy is more than enough to warrant a call.

    However, I didn't realize you were only estimating your economy. Eyeballing the gauge is wildly inaccurate, and even with the check engine light on you'll typically have anywhere from 2-3 gallons left in the tank. With a car your size, that could account for a 50 (80KM) to 100 (160KM) mile spread. By filling the tank, we'll have a much better idea how things are shaping up for you.

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  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    bowen wrote: »
    Cylinders is a big thing too. If it's a 4 cyl engine, it's going to be suspiciously weak compared to a 6 or 8 cyl engine.

    Not really, no. If you want I can show you a 2.2 litre 4 cylinder engine that puts out more power than two Corvettes...

    EDIT: Wait, no, three Corvettes.

    Just as a rule of thumb, there are exceptions but someone who's buying a $18,000 4 cyl engine vehicle is probably not getting a performance machine.

    bowen on
  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    Figgy wrote:
    I did notice that going up the bridge today, I had to really give the pedal a bit to get it to downshift. Was running about 4000-4500 RPM until it did that.

    What sort of economy loss am I going to see driving 120KM/HR as opposed to 100?

    There are a lot of factors that figure into that, but reading this graph from this wikipedia entry, that could be a 2-5 mpg difference. With only 4 cogs, your top gear might not have a very high overdrive ratio, but then again I thought the Matrix (Corolla platform IIRC) should be relatively fuel efficient.

    Does your car have a "manu-matic" mode where you can force a downshift? Cause if you have to regularly gun it to 5K then that's going to hurt economy.

  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    Djeet wrote:
    Figgy wrote:
    I did notice that going up the bridge today, I had to really give the pedal a bit to get it to downshift. Was running about 4000-4500 RPM until it did that.

    What sort of economy loss am I going to see driving 120KM/HR as opposed to 100?

    There are a lot of factors that figure into that, but reading this graph from this wikipedia entry, that could be a 2-5 mpg difference. With only 4 cogs, your top gear might not have a very high overdrive ratio, but then again I thought the Matrix (Corolla platform IIRC) should be relatively fuel efficient.

    Does your car have a "manu-matic" mode where you can force a downshift? Cause if you have to regularly gun it to 5K then that's going to hurt economy.

    I can shift over to 3rd, 2nd, or 1st. Again, not really familiar with driving auto trans, is it safe to just pop it into 3 at any time? Or should I be at a certain speed/RPM?

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  • NappuccinoNappuccino Registered User regular
    I would think the on-board computer should be able to safely do that.

    But I'm not really sure as I don't think my car has that ability.

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  • FiggyFiggy Registered User regular
    And it's entirely possible to just shift over to 3rd by accident, since the shifter in drive is just right beside 3:

    2011-Toyota-Matrix-016.jpg

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  • DjeetDjeet Registered User regular
    Ahhh, that's not the "manu-matic" or "sport shift" I've seen in some autos, which allows you to pop the shifter over and shift ratchet-style: like this or this. I'm not sure how good or bad it is to use 3 to downshift to pass or climb regularly; however the operators manual might have something to say, as it shouldn't say you can do something that would place undue wear on the vehicle/components.

    On transmissions like yours I've only used it to engine brake on a declining slope. Basically when you put in into D, you're telling the auto tranny that it can use all 4 gears (I assume 4 is an overdrive gear). When you put it into 3 you're telling the tranny it can only use gears 1-3, and so forth. So popping it into 3 should result in a downshift to 3 as quickly as the computer/tranny can do so safely, but again, not sure if it's recommended as a regular driving technique.

  • DhalphirDhalphir don't you open that trapdoor you're a fool if you dareRegistered User regular
    Any new auto transmission should recognise fairly quickly when you want to shift. Manually shifting downwards should not be necessary unless the transmission is broken as hell.

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  • DibsDibs Registered User regular
    Edit: And about calling corporate at this point, I don't think I have enough to go on. "I think the car isn't as powerful as it should be and it's guzzling gas" probably isn't enough. They'll tell me to take it to a dealer, and I'll have to say the dealer said it's fine. If I could then add "but I have paperwork here that shows I'm getting 60% economy and it takes x time to reach y speed with the gas pedal floored" that might hold more water.

    This is just so wrong. The minute your dealership gave you the run around, you should have involved corporate. CALL TOYOTA.

    The dealership has no stake - they got your money, and that's all they care about. The corporate office has an image to maintain, and in this day and age keeping every single customer as happy as possible is paramount. Why haven't you called Toyota? People have been telling you to do it since the page 1 and you keep 'testing your mileage' - call Toyota, someone gave you the number.

  • EffefEffef Who said your opinion mattered, Jones? Registered User regular
    Dhalphir wrote:
    Any new auto transmission should recognise fairly quickly when you want to shift. Manually shifting downwards should not be necessary unless the transmission is broken as hell.

    broken as hell or a dodge or ford 4 speed auto from a few years ago

    take your pick

    ox30LTf.gif
  • DerrickDerrick Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    On your wife's car, almost all wheels are out of balance. Every time you get your tires rotated or changed, the shop guys should be rebalancing your tires and adding weights where appropriate to get them into line.

    So, it's not weird that your tire was out of balance, but it is weird that the shop you took it to didn't just hammer a 75g weight on the rim at the proper point. You don't want to be putting miles on a car with tires that are out of balance, as it can cause all kinds of problems (and it's really cheap and fast to fix).

    Derrick on
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  • WildEEPWildEEP Registered User regular
    Do not shift your automatic into lower gears unless you're on unique terrain or hauling something.
    There are new transmissions that allow you to do this at will, but with that shifter you've got, you do not have one of those transmissions.
    Call the GM and set an appointment to drive an identical model car for a demo. If it handles exactly the same way, then its probably just you not used to automatic.

    If it really bothers you, you can actually adjust the power curve settings so that it shifts at a lower RPM. Thats another trip to the dealer though..and I dont know If I'd trust them to do it at this point.

  • bowenbowen Registered User regular
    Well.. if you're manually shifting that car once its in gear that would explain bad mileage. Drop it on the 3-D and leave it there. 2/L is for different driving/towing conditions.

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