I think the real problem is that getting your back cracked does make you feel better. So naturally feeling better=fixed, which as we know is not always the situation.
And there are legitimate alternate medicine paths that are reasonable, but with so many snake oil salesmen out there, and people who are simply misinformed it is hard to separate truth from fiction.
Also in the particular example cited, I seriously doubt back pain from running was solved by any "adjustment". I would wager, you've already been taking steps to fix it - for example, did you changes shoes - particularly running shoes - or start wearing orthodics around that time?
Because a really really well known cause of back pain due to running is having improperly balanced and padded shoes, and is easily fixed by getting shoes which work better with your feet. If you changed shoes, or even just socks or possibly gait, then you'd fix the problem seemingly permanently.
No. I was in the military at the time and had been clomping around in boots most of every day, and continued to do so for about a year after. And this was a back pain that had plagued me whenever I ran for as long as I can remember, at least as far back as middle school. In that time I had gone through all sorts of changes; different pairs of shoes, boots, riding bikes, riding motorcycles, running track, fencing, growing several inches in height, joining the military, and then he did his adjustment thing and it went away like that. The only alternate explanation you suggested might be a change in gait, but the only reason my gait would have changed (And I didn't notice if it did) would have been because of the adjustment, and if that fixed the pain, wouldn't that be the same thing?
I think the real problem is that getting your back cracked does make you feel better. So naturally feeling better=fixed, which as we know is not always the situation.
And there are legitimate alternate medicine paths that are reasonable, but with so many snake oil salesmen out there, and people who are simply misinformed it is hard to separate truth from fiction.
Also in the particular example cited, I seriously doubt back pain from running was solved by any "adjustment". I would wager, you've already been taking steps to fix it - for example, did you changes shoes - particularly running shoes - or start wearing orthodics around that time?
Because a really really well known cause of back pain due to running is having improperly balanced and padded shoes, and is easily fixed by getting shoes which work better with your feet. If you changed shoes, or even just socks or possibly gait, then you'd fix the problem seemingly permanently.
No. I was in the military at the time and had been clomping around in boots most of every day, and continued to do so for about a year after. And this was a back pain that had plagued me whenever I ran for as long as I can remember, at least as far back as middle school. In that time I had gone through all sorts of changes; different pairs of shoes, boots, riding bikes, riding motorcycles, running track, fencing, growing several inches in height, joining the military, and then he did his adjustment thing and it went away like that. The only alternate explanation you suggested might be a change in gait, but the only reason my gait would have changed (And I didn't notice if it did) would have been because of the adjustment, and if that fixed the pain, wouldn't that be the same thing?
The fundamental problem with the anecdote is that nobody here had the opportunity to examine what happened; we're just stuck with your recollection of what happened. I could be that, yes, the adjustment fixed whatever issue - it might also be some other factor that you didn't think of / notice and that nobody here would be aware of. Human testimony just doesn't reliably inform us of reality (even testimony that is, to the best of the witness's knowledge, truthful).
What we do know is that chiropractic work fails to produce results consistent with it's claims of efficacy under controlled conditions.
I saw a chiropractor for a while when I was younger. The guy was all business, none of the "candles/flu adjustment/cracking your spine will cure cancer" bullshit. He straight up told me that adjustments weren't going to be effective alone, that I required a lifestyle change as well.
My back was so bad that the first time he adjusted me the sounds coming out of it made him say "wow" (that was the scariest part for me, realizing that the guy who does this shit for a living said wow after he popped my back). I came in once a week and over a period of time my back pain lessened considerably. Whether that was from the chiropractic work or from trying to keep a better posture and losing some weight in general or a combination of the two I'll never know with 100% certainty, but I do know that getting my back cracked by that guy felt better than sex.
It seems that chiropractors are like auto mechanics in that for every one honest guy who actually wants to help people out you've got two thousand assholes who want to fleece you out of as much money as possible.
So does the USA not have a governing body regulating chiropractics across the country? In Australia the practice is heavily regulated, and state boards make it easy for customers to complain about malpractice here http://www.hpca.nsw.gov.au/Chiropratic-Council/Home/Home/default.aspx .
-edit-
I'm really shocked at how much consumers/customers/patients in the USA are treated with contempt, like fucking trash, and nobody does anything about it.
There are plenty of chiropractors in London anyway, despite free, easily accessible primary healthcare provided by the NHS. Also, plenty of Chinese health and masseuse stores in malls or high streets, promising all sorts of awesome results
I actually went to a chiropractor recently. I guess I had been weight lifting wrong or something, but it ended up resulting in my back locking up and the worst pain of my life.
Went to a chiropractor the next day. He pretty much went straight to work by cracking a few main joints, then the nurse put on these electroshock pads on my muscles/nerves to loosen up the muscles for 20 min, then he cracked a few more areas and told me to come again to finish the treatment.
FYI, you can get those electro pads for home use too. I have a friend who has lots of tense back muscles and that machine made life much nicer for her.
Apparently they work well for strengthening muscles too. I never really thought too much about it but there seems to be some legitimate study on them, I recall, for that ab-shock thing I saw a few months back.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Different schooling than MD, it's not the traditional doctor path but it's usually considered just as good. I think the comparison is MDs look at the disease and symptoms to fix the problem, and DOs look at the person as a whole to fix the problems.
An MD might write a prescription to manage high blood pressure and call it a day
An DO might write the prescription but ask you to keep a log of your food and see if you can't do it naturally at first and then ween you off the prescription after a period of time.
That's how it was explained to me, but, who knows.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Osteopathy is BS, but requires slightly more specialization and involves a lot more horrified denial because well they went to school(!) in the thing that doesn't actually do anything.
Also, I reiterate: your back getting better isn't actually evidence that the chiropractor did anything good, or that he didn't come close to doing something very very bad.
Let's say I have a treatment centre that provides... fuck... supraphysionostrum therapy. We put some stuff on a place, we hook you up to an EEG maybe we take x-rays (so medical!) and we say serious-faced: "now, this alone won't do it for you" because fuck we're so humble damn. The fact that it makes you think we're very serious and not at all trying to trick you even though it's essentially meaningless is a very convenient side-effect.
You get better! Wow, so effective!
Guess what you just proved? Not a fucking thing! Because that's not how evidence actually works! If the three-card monte scam didn't occasionally pay off, or provide the appearance of paying off, it wouldn't work!
Your friend goes on your recommendation, has an actual potentially serious spinal problem, shit gets cracked, and he loses the use of his legs! Oh darn oh well though I guess he had a choice about care providers.
Oh but that wouldn't happen, right? Because you're quite smart. So long as you're smart enough, lacking information can never harm you.
I had numbness in my left hand and some back pain.
I saw a chiropractor my Dad recommended, who took x-rays and did some kind of heat reading of the different part of my spine. Then he had me come in for regular sessions. It continued to get worse.
Once my insurance informed me that these would be $55 each because, and I quote the BCBS rep here "your coverage doesn't include magic." I never went back.
Then I went to a nerve specialist who stuck with electric needles and showed me how my nerve conduction speed was low, who directed me to a neurologist who looked at my spine and said "if you see that chiropractor again you'll permanently lose the use of your hand".
The neurologist operated on my arm to unpinch my ulnar nerve. And I haven't had a problem since unless I lift over 250 lbs.
Then I saw the episode of Bullshit! About chiropractors.
I hate them.
In my mind almost all alternative medicine is predicated on people frantically searching for a reliable mental health outlet. They go to normal doctors and leave unsatisfied because that isn't what they do. They go to bullshit artists and get a nice long soothing talk and some personal care and attention and that bare minimum of therapy makes them feel just good enough to trust the harmful bullshit that said artists provide.
Just saw this thread, but from what I understand about chiropractors is like other said, they're like car salesmen. Most are awful and want to steal your money, but some actually have many many hours of med school and training and actually know what they're doing. You just have to find the right one. But it is probably one of the fields most full of scammers and such.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
I saw a chiropractor for a while when I was younger. The guy was all business, none of the "candles/flu adjustment/cracking your spine will cure cancer" bullshit. He straight up told me that adjustments weren't going to be effective alone, that I required a lifestyle change as well.
My back was so bad that the first time he adjusted me the sounds coming out of it made him say "wow" (that was the scariest part for me, realizing that the guy who does this shit for a living said wow after he popped my back). I came in once a week and over a period of time my back pain lessened considerably. Whether that was from the chiropractic work or from trying to keep a better posture and losing some weight in general or a combination of the two I'll never know with 100% certainty, but I do know that getting my back cracked by that guy felt better than sex.
It seems that chiropractors are like auto mechanics in that for every one honest guy who actually wants to help people out you've got two thousand assholes who want to fleece you out of as much money as possible.
Anecdotes, anecdotes, I guess.
Maybe theres like 1% of chiropractors that are on the lifestyle change side. I ran into one, you ran into one.
Just saw this thread, but from what I understand about chiropractors is like other said, they're like car salesmen. Most are awful and want to steal your money, but some actually have many many hours of med school and training and actually know what they're doing. You just have to find the right one. But it is probably one of the fields most full of scammers and such.
Honest chiropractors like honest Floridian dentists: you're not going to find one.
I saw a chiropractor for a while when I was younger. The guy was all business, none of the "candles/flu adjustment/cracking your spine will cure cancer" bullshit. He straight up told me that adjustments weren't going to be effective alone, that I required a lifestyle change as well.
My back was so bad that the first time he adjusted me the sounds coming out of it made him say "wow" (that was the scariest part for me, realizing that the guy who does this shit for a living said wow after he popped my back). I came in once a week and over a period of time my back pain lessened considerably. Whether that was from the chiropractic work or from trying to keep a better posture and losing some weight in general or a combination of the two I'll never know with 100% certainty, but I do know that getting my back cracked by that guy felt better than sex.
It seems that chiropractors are like auto mechanics in that for every one honest guy who actually wants to help people out you've got two thousand assholes who want to fleece you out of as much money as possible.
Anecdotes, anecdotes, I guess.
Maybe theres like 1% of chiropractors that are on the lifestyle change side. I ran into one, you ran into one.
I ran into one.
Mine loves to hear that I've been trying to work at rehabilitating my back injury, and encourages healthier habits so I wouldn't be over-reliant on routine sessions as my only form of injury management. Never has he suggested any of that bullshit stuff described in this thread. I only go to him when my back is worse than usual and prevents me from exercising or studying adequately because it's gotten itself all bent out of shape.
I actually prefer him to physiotherapists.
I went to one to treat my back. She injured me.
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What exactly does "cracking" one's back consist of, physiologically? Because I know that a) cracking joints feels fantastic, and b) cracking joints is, as far as I know, either harmful or neutral. Cracking one's neck, for example, weakens muscles and pinches nerves, and cracking knuckles doesn't cause arthritis, but can cause limited pain and is thought to cause weakened grip strength (either temporary or permanent). From what I've read, there is actually some disagreement on what happens when you crack a joint, regarding fluids in the joint, tendon movement, cartilage and bone, etc., so I'm curious as to what is actually going on when a chiropractor manipulates someone's spine.
Saying "oh, trust me this works but... also... um, doooo a lot of other stuff and remember not to rely on me or what I do and also sign this waiver"
isn't a fucking bold stance. It's ass-covering. It's dime-store advice that requires no medical training, is right just often enough to make people think you're magic, and allows you to explain that well if there was any failure it was probably because you weren't following the procedure.
Saying "oh, trust me this works but... also... um, doooo a lot of other stuff and remember not to rely on me or what I do and also sign this waiver"
isn't a fucking bold stance. It's ass-covering. It's dime-store advice that requires no medical training, is right just often enough to make people think you're magic, and allows you to explain that well if there was any failure it was probably because you weren't following the procedure.
GPs do this. If you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and they suggest you make life changes, and then go in and they don't see improvement they blame you for not listening to them, then write a scrip. Medical profession attracts narcissists i guess.
Saying "oh, trust me this works but... also... um, doooo a lot of other stuff and remember not to rely on me or what I do and also sign this waiver"
isn't a fucking bold stance. It's ass-covering. It's dime-store advice that requires no medical training, is right just often enough to make people think you're magic, and allows you to explain that well if there was any failure it was probably because you weren't following the procedure.
GPs do this. If you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and they suggest you make life changes, and then go in and they don't see improvement they blame you for not listening to them, then write a scrip. Medical profession attracts narcissists i guess.
The major difference being that a medical professional is giving you actual advice based on the available evidence, not telling you some boiler-plate bullshit that works often enough to smokescreen their complete lack of credentials.
But, again, probably not your guy. You're too smart to fall for that.
I always thought that chiropractors were the same as physical therapists but just specialized in the back. This is good information.
While we're on the subject of quack medicine, what is the consensus on Doctors of Osteopathy (D.O.s)? Legit?
A DO receives equivalent training to an MD. They are essentially the same. The only difference is training in osteopathic manipulation, which is their sorcerous bone-magics. I don't really know anything about it because MD schools don't ever really talk about it. Not every DO continues to use it beyond their training years.
Yeah aside from the esoteric bone magic, their training is roughly equivalent. It's usually cheaper to become a DO compared to MD, which is why some people do it, and then never use the bone magic shit again. Then there's the whole touchy-feely let me heal you nonsense some of them do too.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
But, again, probably not your guy. You're too smart to fall for that.
The way you keep saying this makes it seem like you are trying to subtly imply that anyone that disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you're not trying to do that but I might not be the only person getting that impression which may be something to consider.
They are legally the same in the U.S as well, like if you go to the hospital and some dude introduces himself as Dr. Dudenstein he could be an M.D or a D.O.
But, again, probably not your guy. You're too smart to fall for that.
The way you keep saying this makes it seem like you are trying to subtly imply that anyone that disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you're not trying to do that but I might not be the only person getting that impression which may be something to consider.
No, it's that anyone who views chiropractic as anything other than scientifically unsupported snake oil is ignorant. It's just in your case, the ignorance is willful.
But, again, probably not your guy. You're too smart to fall for that.
The way you keep saying this makes it seem like you are trying to subtly imply that anyone that disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you're not trying to do that but I might not be the only person getting that impression which may be something to consider.
No, it's that anyone who views chiropractic as anything other than scientifically unsupported snake oil is ignorant. It's just in your case, the ignorance is willful.
It's the drumbeat response to every scam.
"Right right there are some bad people out there! But my guy seems super legit. Also, admitting to any moment of weakness would make me feel bad, and cause me to reevaluate some of my conceptions of myself as practically infallible and relentlessly logical. A way better way of dealing with this would be to assume that other people are dumb but not me and remain content with my decision."
It's how scams work. It frustrates me to no end to hear people talk about "their guy" as though it's impossible to be fooled by someone. It's only ever other people who are stupid enough to be fooled.
Edit: So really, I'm more calling upon everyone to recognize that we're illogical and barely-sentient and we need lots and lots of well-supported evidence to avoid destroying ourselves with our ridiculous notions. You're not the special one who doesn't need help.
Saying "oh, trust me this works but... also... um, doooo a lot of other stuff and remember not to rely on me or what I do and also sign this waiver"
isn't a fucking bold stance. It's ass-covering. It's dime-store advice that requires no medical training, is right just often enough to make people think you're magic, and allows you to explain that well if there was any failure it was probably because you weren't following the procedure.
GPs do this. If you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and they suggest you make life changes, and then go in and they don't see improvement they blame you for not listening to them, then write a scrip. Medical profession attracts narcissists i guess.
The major difference being that a medical professional is giving you actual advice based on the available evidence, not telling you some boiler-plate bullshit that works often enough to smokescreen their complete lack of credentials.
But, again, probably not your guy. You're too smart to fall for that.
If I had gone to a GP for immediate lower back pain relief I wouldn't have gotten any, but I would have received the same boiler-plate bullshit about exercise, stretching, posture, etc.
GPs do this. If you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and they suggest you make life changes, and then go in and they don't see improvement they blame you for not listening to them, then write a scrip.
If I had gone to a GP for immediate lower back pain relief I wouldn't have gotten any, but I would have received the same boiler-plate bullshit about exercise, stretching, posture, etc
I'm amazed at this display of willful ignorance. A GP will suggest a lifestyle change, of course, as improved diet and exercise is an OVERWHELMINGLY more effective method than pills and back-cracking.
I am astonished that you call exercise, stretching and posture "boiler-plate bullshit."
The difference here (that, again, I am astonished you're not seeing) is that a GP is offering you that advice because he/she believes it will make you better. A doctor of magic is giving you the same advice, while trying to sell you on further treatment.
Saying "oh, trust me this works but... also... um, doooo a lot of other stuff and remember not to rely on me or what I do and also sign this waiver"
isn't a fucking bold stance. It's ass-covering. It's dime-store advice that requires no medical training, is right just often enough to make people think you're magic, and allows you to explain that well if there was any failure it was probably because you weren't following the procedure.
GPs do this. If you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and they suggest you make life changes, and then go in and they don't see improvement they blame you for not listening to them, then write a scrip. Medical profession attracts narcissists i guess.
The major difference being that a medical professional is giving you actual advice based on the available evidence, not telling you some boiler-plate bullshit that works often enough to smokescreen their complete lack of credentials.
Sometimes an MD will give advice that's not really evidence-based and is more boiler-plate bullshit. MDs aren't infallible.
But as a general trend, yes, I agree with you.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
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EncA Fool with CompassionPronouns: He, Him, HisRegistered Userregular
As a snake oil salesman, my profession is already hard enough without be compared to the chiropractic industry. Sure, it's a placebo, but have you considered how many individuals we employ to squeeze oil out of these snakes? It's not going to be done by itself, oh no. We're job creators. And do you know how much money we put into research for venom antidotes? Enough to have Big Pharma match our contributions to fund more than a few children in St. Jude's, I'll have you know.
But sure, compare us to Chiropractors.
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mrt144King of the NumbernamesRegistered Userregular
GPs do this. If you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and they suggest you make life changes, and then go in and they don't see improvement they blame you for not listening to them, then write a scrip.
If I had gone to a GP for immediate lower back pain relief I wouldn't have gotten any, but I would have received the same boiler-plate bullshit about exercise, stretching, posture, etc
I'm amazed at this display of willful ignorance. A GP will suggest a lifestyle change, of course, as improved diet and exercise is an OVERWHELMINGLY more effective method than pills and back-cracking.
I am astonished that you call exercise, stretching and posture "boiler-plate bullshit."
The difference here (that, again, I am astonished you're not seeing) is that a GP is offering you that advice because he/she believes it will make you better. A doctor of magic is giving you the same advice, while trying to sell you on further treatment.
But he didn't sell me on further treatment. He literally told me after the 3rd visit that I had to make the changes from here on out and no amount of adjustments will make the back physically better and there were no more visits after that. Why did he do that? Why didn't he want me as a client? Was I not worth the time?
And it's only boiler-plate bullshit when qualified by the source of the information, according to some people.
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
Osteopathy is BS, but requires slightly more specialization and involves a lot more horrified denial because well they went to school(!) in the thing that doesn't actually do anything.
Also, I reiterate: your back getting better isn't actually evidence that the chiropractor did anything good, or that he didn't come close to doing something very very bad.
Let's say I have a treatment centre that provides... fuck... supraphysionostrum therapy. We put some stuff on a place, we hook you up to an EEG maybe we take x-rays (so medical!) and we say serious-faced: "now, this alone won't do it for you" because fuck we're so humble damn. The fact that it makes you think we're very serious and not at all trying to trick you even though it's essentially meaningless is a very convenient side-effect.
You get better! Wow, so effective!
Guess what you just proved? Not a fucking thing! Because that's not how evidence actually works! If the three-card monte scam didn't occasionally pay off, or provide the appearance of paying off, it wouldn't work!
Your friend goes on your recommendation, has an actual potentially serious spinal problem, shit gets cracked, and he loses the use of his legs! Oh darn oh well though I guess he had a choice about care providers.
Oh but that wouldn't happen, right? Because you're quite smart. So long as you're smart enough, lacking information can never harm you.
I had numbness in my left hand and some back pain.
I saw a chiropractor my Dad recommended, who took x-rays and did some kind of heat reading of the different part of my spine. Then he had me come in for regular sessions. It continued to get worse.
Once my insurance informed me that these would be $55 each because, and I quote the BCBS rep here "your coverage doesn't include magic." I never went back.
Then I went to a nerve specialist who stuck with electric needles and showed me how my nerve conduction speed was low, who directed me to a neurologist who looked at my spine and said "if you see that chiropractor again you'll permanently lose the use of your hand".
The neurologist operated on my arm to unpinch my ulnar nerve. And I haven't had a problem since unless I lift over 250 lbs.
Then I saw the episode of Bullshit! About chiropractors.
I hate them.
In my mind almost all alternative medicine is predicated on people frantically searching for a reliable mental health outlet. They go to normal doctors and leave unsatisfied because that isn't what they do. They go to bullshit artists and get a nice long soothing talk and some personal care and attention and that bare minimum of therapy makes them feel just good enough to trust the harmful bullshit that said artists provide.
You keep returning to mental health when discussing alternative therapy, and while I completely agree it's all bullshit, I don't think it's because of mental health. The person desperately seeking a cure for cancer when all conventional medicine has told them to give up is not there to seek treatment for mental health. The person visiting a chiropractor because he "seems" like a medical professional and they hear good things from their friends are not seeking a mental health treatment.
I think people who seek treatment from someone with verifying what kind of treatment they are gettiing need mental health treatment, but they aren't necessarily there to seek it. They don't think there's anything wrong with them. It's the medical establishment out to get them...
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
As a snake oil salesman, my profession is already hard enough without be compared to the chiropractic industry. Sure, it's a placebo, but have you considered how many individuals we employ to squeeze oil out of these snakes? It's not going to be done by itself, oh no. We're job creators. And do you know how much money we put into research for venom antidotes? Enough to have Big Pharma match our contributions to fund more than a few children in St. Jude's, I'll have you know.
GPs do this. If you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and they suggest you make life changes, and then go in and they don't see improvement they blame you for not listening to them, then write a scrip.
If I had gone to a GP for immediate lower back pain relief I wouldn't have gotten any, but I would have received the same boiler-plate bullshit about exercise, stretching, posture, etc
I'm amazed at this display of willful ignorance. A GP will suggest a lifestyle change, of course, as improved diet and exercise is an OVERWHELMINGLY more effective method than pills and back-cracking.
Ugh, this is really overly simplistic. I'm not sure if I really want to get into this in this thread in too much detail, but the crux of it is that not only is cholesterol only moderately under the person's control, but it's also poorly associated with disease. If your argument is "diet and exercise is overwhelmingly more effective than pills" (specifically, statins) at controlling cholesterol, then you're objectively verifiably factually wrong. However, diet and exercise are probably more effective than statins at improving general cardiovascular health.
But that's kind of the weirdness that we've been seeing. Giving people statins can reduce their LDLs by over 50% but results in a much less dramatic reduction in stroke risk. (In some studies, statins increased stroke risk). Diet and exercise can greatly decrease your stroke risk without making a dent in LDLs.
The problem is that a lot of people, MDs included, are still clinging to the old outmoded boiler plate 'wisdom' that poor lifestyle = high LDL = high stroke risk when it is increasingly looking like LDL is much less associated with either poor lifestyle or high stroke risk than previously believed.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Saying "oh, trust me this works but... also... um, doooo a lot of other stuff and remember not to rely on me or what I do and also sign this waiver"
isn't a fucking bold stance. It's ass-covering. It's dime-store advice that requires no medical training, is right just often enough to make people think you're magic, and allows you to explain that well if there was any failure it was probably because you weren't following the procedure.
GPs do this. If you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and they suggest you make life changes, and then go in and they don't see improvement they blame you for not listening to them, then write a scrip. Medical profession attracts narcissists i guess.
The major difference being that a medical professional is giving you actual advice based on the available evidence, not telling you some boiler-plate bullshit that works often enough to smokescreen their complete lack of credentials.
Sometimes an MD will give advice that's not really evidence-based and is more boiler-plate bullshit. MDs aren't infallible.
You keep returning to mental health when discussing alternative therapy, and while I completely agree it's all bullshit, I don't think it's because of mental health. The person desperately seeking a cure for cancer when all conventional medicine has told them to give up is not there to seek treatment for mental health. The person visiting a chiropractor because he "seems" like a medical professional and they hear good things from their friends are not seeking a mental health treatment.
I think people who seek treatment from someone with verifying what kind of treatment they are gettiing need mental health treatment, but they aren't necessarily there to seek it. They don't think there's anything wrong with them. It's the medical establishment out to get them...
Oh yes, obviously. No one admits their own motivations. But they go to a doctor with complaints that cannot be addressed medically, because there are no actual medical complaints to address (or, those complaints exist and the only actual treatment is non-existent, boring, or annoying). Then they go see someone who can't actually offer medical advice, but can listen and be attentive.
They aren't actively and outwardly searching for therapy, but that's the thing they're looking for. So, yeah. They complain of the doctor being cold and mean and not helping, hear good things about [alternative BS] and see a nice person who gives them some kind words. If people weren't so terrified of being labelled crazy, we could address this sort of general shitty feeling the way it should be instead of shunting it to scam artists.
Edit: And to add to the "MDs are fallible" thing: yes, totally. But so is every professional in every field everywhere.
At no point is that a good argument for "trusting your gut" or going with the unproven scam because it worked once for you/a friend. I am pretty sure structural engineers are occasionally wrong. Sometimes disastrously! But that doesn't actually justify my consulting with sufi mystics about how to toss up a new apartment block.
Science is wrong, scientists are wrong, doctors are wrong, and it's very very hard for them to admit it, as it is for everyone. But for fuck's sake at least they think it's important to admit it, and have attempted to build institutions that force them to admit when they're wrong.
'Bout ten years ago I had to go for my drivers license test. Only problem was, as we then discovered, I couldn't look behind me. As in my neck did not twist to a sufficient degree as to allow me to see behind me and check blindspots or do parallel parking, both of which were instant fails if you messed it up.
So we got sent to a chiro. Dude put me in what looked suspiciously like a dentist's chair and started oiling my neck up. And then suddenly the most horrible cracking sound that I've ever heard filled my ears.
I thought he murdered me. Straight up broke my neck.
But he didn't, and long story short for the first time in years I could look over my own shoulder, and I still can. So yeah, some small amount of what they do has actual benefit, but the bullshit they sling far outweighs it.
'Bout ten years ago I had to go for my drivers license test. Only problem was, as we then discovered, I couldn't look behind me. As in my neck did not twist to a sufficient degree as to allow me to see behind me and check blindspots or do parallel parking, both of which were instant fails if you messed it up.
So we got sent to a chiro. Dude put me in what looked suspiciously like a dentist's chair and started oiling my neck up. And then suddenly the most horrible cracking sound that I've ever heard filled my ears.
I thought he murdered me. Straight up broke my neck.
But he didn't, and long story short for the first time in years I could look over my own shoulder, and I still can. So yeah, some small amount of what they do has actual benefit, but the bullshit they sling far outweighs it.
Don't you see falx, you could always look over your shoulder and you paid some charlatan for the privileged of instilling the belief that you could into you. Don't you know that if you had taken a sugar pill that you were led to believe would increase range of motion for your neck, you would be able to look over you over your shoulder?
But, again, probably not your guy. You're too smart to fall for that.
The way you keep saying this makes it seem like you are trying to subtly imply that anyone that disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you're not trying to do that but I might not be the only person getting that impression which may be something to consider.
No, it's that anyone who views chiropractic as anything other than scientifically unsupported snake oil is ignorant. It's just in your case, the ignorance is willful.
I don't think it's too unreasonable a claim that you could resolve someone's back pain by forcibly adjusting their back, or that it is possible for a person to learn techniques by which to do so.
Saying "oh, trust me this works but... also... um, doooo a lot of other stuff and remember not to rely on me or what I do and also sign this waiver"
isn't a fucking bold stance. It's ass-covering. It's dime-store advice that requires no medical training, is right just often enough to make people think you're magic, and allows you to explain that well if there was any failure it was probably because you weren't following the procedure.
GPs do this. If you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and they suggest you make life changes, and then go in and they don't see improvement they blame you for not listening to them, then write a scrip. Medical profession attracts narcissists i guess.
The major difference being that a medical professional is giving you actual advice based on the available evidence, not telling you some boiler-plate bullshit that works often enough to smokescreen their complete lack of credentials.
Sometimes an MD will give advice that's not really evidence-based and is more boiler-plate bullshit. MDs aren't infallible.
But as a general trend, yes, I agree with you.
Seriously, I think some people are just making the point that doctors aren't perfect either. They're definitely coming from actual real science as their background, but because of the nature of most doctor's offices, they're not willing to give more than a glance at your symptoms.
ANECDOTE TIME! About 2 years ago I was under a lot of stress and had severe abdominal pain. It was near constant, but especially bad when I ate anything at all. This lasted for about 6 months with me going to see many doctors in the meantime. I went to 2 clinic doctors and the emergency room 3 times, twice in an ambulance. Each time I went to the doctor I listed the same symptoms and without running any tests, they decided within 15 seconds what my problem absolutely must be and prescribed me medication that would totally fix it. And of course, each diagnosis was different, but was said with absolute certainty. Finally, on my last hospital visit, when I actually had a doctor tell me that she wouldn't let me leave until they knew for sure what was wrong with me, and that they were actually going to run real tests, I basically broke down.
Chronic pain where nobody takes you seriously is torture, and you can tell in many doctor's offices they are barely listening to you. If part of the chiropractic experience is that they take the time to listen and make you feel that they are really trying to help, then I can understand people in their vulnerability wanting to go there to feel relief. It's disgusting for them to be using people's pain to be making a money on something that won't help them in the long run, but I think some of the fault belongs to doctors for letting this industry flourish. If doctors were more attentive people would be less likely to run to a chiropractor or homeopath just to feel heard.
For the record, I had gallstones, and after a minor surgery I was completely fine. Something really mundane that could have been found months earlier if a doctor had actually bothered to run any tests.
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that'd be one bat ass doctor
No. I was in the military at the time and had been clomping around in boots most of every day, and continued to do so for about a year after. And this was a back pain that had plagued me whenever I ran for as long as I can remember, at least as far back as middle school. In that time I had gone through all sorts of changes; different pairs of shoes, boots, riding bikes, riding motorcycles, running track, fencing, growing several inches in height, joining the military, and then he did his adjustment thing and it went away like that. The only alternate explanation you suggested might be a change in gait, but the only reason my gait would have changed (And I didn't notice if it did) would have been because of the adjustment, and if that fixed the pain, wouldn't that be the same thing?
The fundamental problem with the anecdote is that nobody here had the opportunity to examine what happened; we're just stuck with your recollection of what happened. I could be that, yes, the adjustment fixed whatever issue - it might also be some other factor that you didn't think of / notice and that nobody here would be aware of. Human testimony just doesn't reliably inform us of reality (even testimony that is, to the best of the witness's knowledge, truthful).
What we do know is that chiropractic work fails to produce results consistent with it's claims of efficacy under controlled conditions.
My back was so bad that the first time he adjusted me the sounds coming out of it made him say "wow" (that was the scariest part for me, realizing that the guy who does this shit for a living said wow after he popped my back). I came in once a week and over a period of time my back pain lessened considerably. Whether that was from the chiropractic work or from trying to keep a better posture and losing some weight in general or a combination of the two I'll never know with 100% certainty, but I do know that getting my back cracked by that guy felt better than sex.
It seems that chiropractors are like auto mechanics in that for every one honest guy who actually wants to help people out you've got two thousand assholes who want to fleece you out of as much money as possible.
Anecdotes, anecdotes, I guess.
-edit-
I'm really shocked at how much consumers/customers/patients in the USA are treated with contempt, like fucking trash, and nobody does anything about it.
I actually went to a chiropractor recently. I guess I had been weight lifting wrong or something, but it ended up resulting in my back locking up and the worst pain of my life.
Went to a chiropractor the next day. He pretty much went straight to work by cracking a few main joints, then the nurse put on these electroshock pads on my muscles/nerves to loosen up the muscles for 20 min, then he cracked a few more areas and told me to come again to finish the treatment.
I felt so much better afterwards, holy schnikies.
While we're on the subject of quack medicine, what is the consensus on Doctors of Osteopathy (D.O.s)? Legit?
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An MD might write a prescription to manage high blood pressure and call it a day
An DO might write the prescription but ask you to keep a log of your food and see if you can't do it naturally at first and then ween you off the prescription after a period of time.
That's how it was explained to me, but, who knows.
Also, I reiterate: your back getting better isn't actually evidence that the chiropractor did anything good, or that he didn't come close to doing something very very bad.
Let's say I have a treatment centre that provides... fuck... supraphysionostrum therapy. We put some stuff on a place, we hook you up to an EEG maybe we take x-rays (so medical!) and we say serious-faced: "now, this alone won't do it for you" because fuck we're so humble damn. The fact that it makes you think we're very serious and not at all trying to trick you even though it's essentially meaningless is a very convenient side-effect.
You get better! Wow, so effective!
Guess what you just proved? Not a fucking thing! Because that's not how evidence actually works! If the three-card monte scam didn't occasionally pay off, or provide the appearance of paying off, it wouldn't work!
Your friend goes on your recommendation, has an actual potentially serious spinal problem, shit gets cracked, and he loses the use of his legs! Oh darn oh well though I guess he had a choice about care providers.
Oh but that wouldn't happen, right? Because you're quite smart. So long as you're smart enough, lacking information can never harm you.
In my mind almost all alternative medicine is predicated on people frantically searching for a reliable mental health outlet. They go to normal doctors and leave unsatisfied because that isn't what they do. They go to bullshit artists and get a nice long soothing talk and some personal care and attention and that bare minimum of therapy makes them feel just good enough to trust the harmful bullshit that said artists provide.
Maybe theres like 1% of chiropractors that are on the lifestyle change side. I ran into one, you ran into one.
Honest chiropractors like honest Floridian dentists: you're not going to find one.
I ran into one.
Mine loves to hear that I've been trying to work at rehabilitating my back injury, and encourages healthier habits so I wouldn't be over-reliant on routine sessions as my only form of injury management. Never has he suggested any of that bullshit stuff described in this thread. I only go to him when my back is worse than usual and prevents me from exercising or studying adequately because it's gotten itself all bent out of shape.
I actually prefer him to physiotherapists.
I went to one to treat my back. She injured me.
Please shoot me a PM if you add me so I know to add you back.
isn't a fucking bold stance. It's ass-covering. It's dime-store advice that requires no medical training, is right just often enough to make people think you're magic, and allows you to explain that well if there was any failure it was probably because you weren't following the procedure.
GPs do this. If you have high blood pressure or cholesterol and they suggest you make life changes, and then go in and they don't see improvement they blame you for not listening to them, then write a scrip. Medical profession attracts narcissists i guess.
The major difference being that a medical professional is giving you actual advice based on the available evidence, not telling you some boiler-plate bullshit that works often enough to smokescreen their complete lack of credentials.
But, again, probably not your guy. You're too smart to fall for that.
A DO receives equivalent training to an MD. They are essentially the same. The only difference is training in osteopathic manipulation, which is their sorcerous bone-magics. I don't really know anything about it because MD schools don't ever really talk about it. Not every DO continues to use it beyond their training years.
The way you keep saying this makes it seem like you are trying to subtly imply that anyone that disagrees with you is stupid. I'm sure you're not trying to do that but I might not be the only person getting that impression which may be something to consider.
No, it's that anyone who views chiropractic as anything other than scientifically unsupported snake oil is ignorant. It's just in your case, the ignorance is willful.
It's the drumbeat response to every scam.
"Right right there are some bad people out there! But my guy seems super legit. Also, admitting to any moment of weakness would make me feel bad, and cause me to reevaluate some of my conceptions of myself as practically infallible and relentlessly logical. A way better way of dealing with this would be to assume that other people are dumb but not me and remain content with my decision."
It's how scams work. It frustrates me to no end to hear people talk about "their guy" as though it's impossible to be fooled by someone. It's only ever other people who are stupid enough to be fooled.
Edit: So really, I'm more calling upon everyone to recognize that we're illogical and barely-sentient and we need lots and lots of well-supported evidence to avoid destroying ourselves with our ridiculous notions. You're not the special one who doesn't need help.
If I had gone to a GP for immediate lower back pain relief I wouldn't have gotten any, but I would have received the same boiler-plate bullshit about exercise, stretching, posture, etc.
I'm amazed at this display of willful ignorance. A GP will suggest a lifestyle change, of course, as improved diet and exercise is an OVERWHELMINGLY more effective method than pills and back-cracking.
I am astonished that you call exercise, stretching and posture "boiler-plate bullshit."
The difference here (that, again, I am astonished you're not seeing) is that a GP is offering you that advice because he/she believes it will make you better. A doctor of magic is giving you the same advice, while trying to sell you on further treatment.
Sometimes an MD will give advice that's not really evidence-based and is more boiler-plate bullshit. MDs aren't infallible.
But as a general trend, yes, I agree with you.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
But sure, compare us to Chiropractors.
But he didn't sell me on further treatment. He literally told me after the 3rd visit that I had to make the changes from here on out and no amount of adjustments will make the back physically better and there were no more visits after that. Why did he do that? Why didn't he want me as a client? Was I not worth the time?
And it's only boiler-plate bullshit when qualified by the source of the information, according to some people.
You keep returning to mental health when discussing alternative therapy, and while I completely agree it's all bullshit, I don't think it's because of mental health. The person desperately seeking a cure for cancer when all conventional medicine has told them to give up is not there to seek treatment for mental health. The person visiting a chiropractor because he "seems" like a medical professional and they hear good things from their friends are not seeking a mental health treatment.
I think people who seek treatment from someone with verifying what kind of treatment they are gettiing need mental health treatment, but they aren't necessarily there to seek it. They don't think there's anything wrong with them. It's the medical establishment out to get them...
Best response ever.
Ugh, this is really overly simplistic. I'm not sure if I really want to get into this in this thread in too much detail, but the crux of it is that not only is cholesterol only moderately under the person's control, but it's also poorly associated with disease. If your argument is "diet and exercise is overwhelmingly more effective than pills" (specifically, statins) at controlling cholesterol, then you're objectively verifiably factually wrong. However, diet and exercise are probably more effective than statins at improving general cardiovascular health.
But that's kind of the weirdness that we've been seeing. Giving people statins can reduce their LDLs by over 50% but results in a much less dramatic reduction in stroke risk. (In some studies, statins increased stroke risk). Diet and exercise can greatly decrease your stroke risk without making a dent in LDLs.
The problem is that a lot of people, MDs included, are still clinging to the old outmoded boiler plate 'wisdom' that poor lifestyle = high LDL = high stroke risk when it is increasingly looking like LDL is much less associated with either poor lifestyle or high stroke risk than previously believed.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
True, but the expectation at least exists.
Going to a magician, not so much.
Oh yes, obviously. No one admits their own motivations. But they go to a doctor with complaints that cannot be addressed medically, because there are no actual medical complaints to address (or, those complaints exist and the only actual treatment is non-existent, boring, or annoying). Then they go see someone who can't actually offer medical advice, but can listen and be attentive.
They aren't actively and outwardly searching for therapy, but that's the thing they're looking for. So, yeah. They complain of the doctor being cold and mean and not helping, hear good things about [alternative BS] and see a nice person who gives them some kind words. If people weren't so terrified of being labelled crazy, we could address this sort of general shitty feeling the way it should be instead of shunting it to scam artists.
Edit: And to add to the "MDs are fallible" thing: yes, totally. But so is every professional in every field everywhere.
At no point is that a good argument for "trusting your gut" or going with the unproven scam because it worked once for you/a friend. I am pretty sure structural engineers are occasionally wrong. Sometimes disastrously! But that doesn't actually justify my consulting with sufi mystics about how to toss up a new apartment block.
Science is wrong, scientists are wrong, doctors are wrong, and it's very very hard for them to admit it, as it is for everyone. But for fuck's sake at least they think it's important to admit it, and have attempted to build institutions that force them to admit when they're wrong.
So we got sent to a chiro. Dude put me in what looked suspiciously like a dentist's chair and started oiling my neck up. And then suddenly the most horrible cracking sound that I've ever heard filled my ears.
I thought he murdered me. Straight up broke my neck.
But he didn't, and long story short for the first time in years I could look over my own shoulder, and I still can. So yeah, some small amount of what they do has actual benefit, but the bullshit they sling far outweighs it.
STEAM
Don't you see falx, you could always look over your shoulder and you paid some charlatan for the privileged of instilling the belief that you could into you. Don't you know that if you had taken a sugar pill that you were led to believe would increase range of motion for your neck, you would be able to look over you over your shoulder?
I don't think it's too unreasonable a claim that you could resolve someone's back pain by forcibly adjusting their back, or that it is possible for a person to learn techniques by which to do so.
Seriously, I think some people are just making the point that doctors aren't perfect either. They're definitely coming from actual real science as their background, but because of the nature of most doctor's offices, they're not willing to give more than a glance at your symptoms.
ANECDOTE TIME! About 2 years ago I was under a lot of stress and had severe abdominal pain. It was near constant, but especially bad when I ate anything at all. This lasted for about 6 months with me going to see many doctors in the meantime. I went to 2 clinic doctors and the emergency room 3 times, twice in an ambulance. Each time I went to the doctor I listed the same symptoms and without running any tests, they decided within 15 seconds what my problem absolutely must be and prescribed me medication that would totally fix it. And of course, each diagnosis was different, but was said with absolute certainty. Finally, on my last hospital visit, when I actually had a doctor tell me that she wouldn't let me leave until they knew for sure what was wrong with me, and that they were actually going to run real tests, I basically broke down.
Chronic pain where nobody takes you seriously is torture, and you can tell in many doctor's offices they are barely listening to you. If part of the chiropractic experience is that they take the time to listen and make you feel that they are really trying to help, then I can understand people in their vulnerability wanting to go there to feel relief. It's disgusting for them to be using people's pain to be making a money on something that won't help them in the long run, but I think some of the fault belongs to doctors for letting this industry flourish. If doctors were more attentive people would be less likely to run to a chiropractor or homeopath just to feel heard.
For the record, I had gallstones, and after a minor surgery I was completely fine. Something really mundane that could have been found months earlier if a doctor had actually bothered to run any tests.