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[SW:TOR] Tanks like spanking.

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Posts

  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    How's the dps line in the Guardian talent tree? I'm thinking of going Guardian, but possibly being more of a dps role. Mainly...I want to wield one lightsaber and wear armor.

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  • CripTonicCripTonic Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Guardian & Juggernaut talents

    Suggested talent specs: Jedi Guardian & Sith Juggernaut

    "Iffy" talents:
    - Command / Throw Gauntlet: May not be that useful to you. AOE taunt helps a lot in AOE scenarios with multiple ranged NPCs, as it forces everything in combat with you to attack you with no range restriction (to my knowledge).
    - Force Clap / Crash: 2s stun on Force Leap/Charge is somewhat useless as the skills function as an interrupt without this talent.
    - Inner Peace / Dark Blood: Very few skills in the game do elemental/internal damage (most are dispellable DOTs), and Enure/Endure Pain are kind of crappy compared to other tanking cooldowns.

    Feel free to re-allocate any of the above if you don't like them, or don't find them useful.

    Decent substitutes:
    - Pacification / Heavy Handed: 15% damage on Hilt Strike/Back Hand as well as AOE skills is nice, but won't let you deal enough to effectively AOE tank because of the target caps on the skills (5 target maximum) and relatively low base damage. AOE taunt should be used instead in these situations if the goal is to simply keep aggro.
    - Perseverance / Dreadnaught: 6% Strength is good, but even at 2000 strength, will only add about 24 damage to your attacks.
    - Master Focus / Ravager: Using Master Strike/Ravage and Stasis/Choke more is good, but the cooldown reduction is minimal.
    - 2/3 Insight / Malice: 4% Force Crit is good but misses a lot of skills you frequently use.
    - Solidified Force / Intimidation: More of a PvP talent, but can be useful for kiting things that do a lot of melee damage.

    General Itemization:

    Guardians & Juggs have the highest base defense of any of the tanks because of the 6% gain on Riposte/Retaliation, so it shouldn't be a high priority to get significantly more. Once you have about 20%, talents included, it's much more effective to gear towards shield and absorption rating since they scale significantly faster and make you overall easier to heal (consistent damage vs. burst damage.) On paper, Defense always appears to be a better stat in terms of actual damage reduction, but since no healers have finite resource pools and causing them to burst heal hurts them more, it's better to stretch out lots of low damage.

    Accuracy is a very, very useful stat as a large amount of skills are classified as Melee, including almost all Focus/Rage generating skills, which if they miss give you nothing. All Slashes (with the exception of Guardian Slash, which is poorly named) are also Melee, and will simply waste Focus/Rage if you miss. If you aren't hit capped threat shouldn't be a huge issue as the vast majority of your B&B threat skills will still be hit capped, you will just wang your Focus/Rage generation which is annoying.

    Surge and Crit are basically useless as none of your talents rely on critical strikes to trigger a secondary effect. Alacrity is detrimental as it will shorten the CC on your Choke/Stasis and you are still able to dodge while casting Master Strike/Ravage.

    Stuff you should know:

    Soresu Form is really, really, crappy until you can pick up the talents to make it more tolerable by either reducing skill costs or giving you better ways to generate focus/rage while in it. Because of the location of these talents in the tree (Tiers 4 and 6) this makes it extremely impractical to tank as a non-tank specialized Guardian or Jugg. Your threat generation and survivability will simply not be up to par relative to other un-spec'd tanks. This has been a major complaint about the class for multiple builds in beta, and tanking simply will not work well no matter how you spec.

    Leveling as a tank make not be a very good idea. In the most recent beta builds your damage output simply becomes too low after about level 35, and the survival you gain from being a tank won't make up for your lower damage output even with a healer companion.

    Your action bars will be incredibly full by level 50. You'll have a few skills that are good on paper but almost completely useless: Pommel Strike and Dispatch/Vicious Throw are pretty worthless and you'll likely never use them while tanking. Cyclone/Sweeping Slash and Slash/Vicious Slash have done roughly the same damage in the past few beta builds, so it's probably a good idea to always use the AOE variant, especially if you elect to pick up the +15% damage talent.

    CripTonic on
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  • BuddiesBuddies Registered User regular
    I am starting to have a fleeting interest in this game, which may grow over the next couple weeks.

    It took me a while to find the class I enjoyed most in WoW, the Protection Warrior. I tried playing a Death Knight and I just couldn't go past level 70. Death Grip just felt flat out wrong to me. I wanted to be in everythings Face whenever I wanted, not bring something to me whenever I wanted. A brief glimpse through this thread makes it sound like a lot of the Tanks have a similar mechanic to Death Grip to close distance instead of Charge.

    Are there any Tank Classes that play similar to the Protection Warrior from WoW? A Tank Class with high mobility is what I am looking for.

  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    Great info right there @CripTonic

    EDIT:

    My lvl 25 build http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500ZZG0Rrd0o.1

    My base tank build http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500crGcubrouo.1

    EDIT 2:

    The unwavering focus talent is a mistake. That talent is a joke.

    shelak on
  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    Buddies wrote:
    I am starting to have a fleeting interest in this game, which may grow over the next couple weeks.

    It took me a while to find the class I enjoyed most in WoW, the Protection Warrior. I tried playing a Death Knight and I just couldn't go past level 70. Death Grip just felt flat out wrong to me. I wanted to be in everythings Face whenever I wanted, not bring something to me whenever I wanted. A brief glimpse through this thread makes it sound like a lot of the Tanks have a similar mechanic to Death Grip to close distance instead of Charge.

    Are there any Tank Classes that play similar to the Protection Warrior from WoW? A Tank Class with high mobility is what I am looking for.

    Jedi Guardians/Sith Warriors are designed to work like WoW Warriors. I don't know about high mobility, though, they've just got one charge, but otherwise, mechanically and skill-wise, they're a pretty direct copy.

  • shelakshelak Registered User
    High mobility ? Remember that in WoW you could force ranged into melee, here you can't.

    I had no issues at low level, but once i got past 25+ i started to get the knife in a gun fight feeling.

  • Dr_KeenbeanDr_Keenbean Registered User regular
    shelak wrote:

    This brought something to light in my head. Am I going to be shooting myself in the foot by speccing into the tanking tree pre-XX level?

    I plan on soloing primarily but I will still want to do heroic quests and flashpoints when they are level-appropriate and tanking them.

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  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    At low level ( till 22+ ) you don't need to be a tank. The low level flashpoints are done with that in mind and you still don't have half of your skills.

    The lvl 17? flashpoint may already require some tanking, i didn't try it.

    After that point, you can solo in tanking build, but keep in mind that it might be faster with a DPS build. However i may be mistaken as i didn't get that far. @CripTonic is a better source.

    Personally, i did 22-28 with a tanking build and healer companion.

    EDIT:

    I'm going focus right at the start because it is the one that help the most at low level. I tried the DPS tree as well, but it only develops after 20+ with the DPs form. Keep in mind that till 22 or so, your main abilities are going to be force sweep, blade storm and slash, two of them based on force.

    shelak on
  • BuddiesBuddies Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote:
    Buddies wrote:
    I am starting to have a fleeting interest in this game, which may grow over the next couple weeks.

    It took me a while to find the class I enjoyed most in WoW, the Protection Warrior. I tried playing a Death Knight and I just couldn't go past level 70. Death Grip just felt flat out wrong to me. I wanted to be in everythings Face whenever I wanted, not bring something to me whenever I wanted. A brief glimpse through this thread makes it sound like a lot of the Tanks have a similar mechanic to Death Grip to close distance instead of Charge.

    Are there any Tank Classes that play similar to the Protection Warrior from WoW? A Tank Class with high mobility is what I am looking for.

    Jedi Guardians/Sith Warriors are designed to work like WoW Warriors. I don't know about high mobility, though, they've just got one charge, but otherwise, mechanically and skill-wise, they're a pretty direct copy.

    Thanks, I'll check them out. Watch some youtube videos and what not to see if the Gameplay looks like something I would enjoy.

  • FerrusFerrus Registered User regular
    @CripTonic

    What do you think about the combination of Unleashed 2/2 and Payback 2/2? 10% heal every 90 or so seconds sounds pretty good to me.

    I would like to pause for a moment, to talk about my penis.
    Spoiler:
  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    At 25-40, My Sith Juggernaut full-spec tank was a pain to level. Your DPS is laughable, and the survivability you gain isn't enough to make up for the loss. This is not a WoW tank leveling deal where you can stack a larger number of mobs and slowly whittle them all down. I'd hazard that it's best to level DPS if you're doing Jugg/Guard.
    Are there any Tank Classes that play similar to the Protection Warrior from WoW? A Tank Class with high mobility is what I am looking for.

    Vanguard/PT has more control over mobs, Assassin has more personal mobility. All you get for Jugg/Guardian is Force Leap and the ability to wipe snares, etc.

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  • Catastrophe_XXVICatastrophe_XXVI Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    It's too early for me to really put things together for a tank build. Mostly because I'm at work but also because the highest I got in the beta weekends was lvl 15. But I am curious about tanky dps and pvp builds. I would like to tank or be able to (read:if we don't have a tank I will and can) but I'd also like to dps. Reading the larger guardian/jugg post it sounds like I'm better off putting points into my damage tree to level anyways. Has anyone been able to put together a talent build that looks good on paper that's 31/10 damage/tank?

    Catastrophe_XXVI on
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  • shelakshelak Registered User
    At 25-40, My Sith Juggernaut full-spec tank was a pain to level. Your DPS is laughable, and the survivability you gain isn't enough to make up for the loss. This is not a WoW tank leveling deal where you can stack a larger number of mobs and slowly whittle them all down. I'd hazard that it's best to level DPS if you're doing Jugg/Guard.
    Are there any Tank Classes that play similar to the Protection Warrior from WoW? A Tank Class with high mobility is what I am looking for.

    Vanguard/PT has more control over mobs, Assassin has more personal mobility. All you get for Jugg/Guardian is Force Leap and the ability to wipe snares, etc.

    That pretty much confirms @CripTonics Tank build warnings. I guess i'm not going to do any flashpoints at all till 50. Maybe later with an other class.

  • FerrusFerrus Registered User regular
    Hearing this talk of lack of damage makes me glad I'll have a personal damage monkey assassin I'm grouping with.

    I would like to pause for a moment, to talk about my penis.
    Spoiler:
  • AutomaticzenAutomaticzen Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Yeah, I was kind of disappointed actually. I planned on being Guardian in live, but my experience has pushed me towards either a Kinetic Shadow or Shield Vanguard. And then I'll make my healer out of the other class.

    Automaticzen on
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    I write news and stuff. It is fun.
  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Buddies wrote:
    reVerse wrote:
    Buddies wrote:
    I am starting to have a fleeting interest in this game, which may grow over the next couple weeks.

    It took me a while to find the class I enjoyed most in WoW, the Protection Warrior. I tried playing a Death Knight and I just couldn't go past level 70. Death Grip just felt flat out wrong to me. I wanted to be in everythings Face whenever I wanted, not bring something to me whenever I wanted. A brief glimpse through this thread makes it sound like a lot of the Tanks have a similar mechanic to Death Grip to close distance instead of Charge.

    Are there any Tank Classes that play similar to the Protection Warrior from WoW? A Tank Class with high mobility is what I am looking for.

    Jedi Guardians/Sith Warriors are designed to work like WoW Warriors. I don't know about high mobility, though, they've just got one charge, but otherwise, mechanically and skill-wise, they're a pretty direct copy.

    Thanks, I'll check them out. Watch some youtube videos and what not to see if the Gameplay looks like something I would enjoy.

    I do believe Guardian/Juggernaut has 3 charges if you're tank specced. Force leap, then Zealous leap which is basically a copy of force leap gotten at level 20, then defender's leap at level 50 which leaps you to an ally and makes them take 20% less damage for so many seconds. It's one of the things I'm most excited about with the class, because i love charging around.

  • BuddiesBuddies Registered User regular
    Joshmvii wrote:
    Buddies wrote:
    reVerse wrote:
    Buddies wrote:
    I am starting to have a fleeting interest in this game, which may grow over the next couple weeks.

    It took me a while to find the class I enjoyed most in WoW, the Protection Warrior. I tried playing a Death Knight and I just couldn't go past level 70. Death Grip just felt flat out wrong to me. I wanted to be in everythings Face whenever I wanted, not bring something to me whenever I wanted. A brief glimpse through this thread makes it sound like a lot of the Tanks have a similar mechanic to Death Grip to close distance instead of Charge.

    Are there any Tank Classes that play similar to the Protection Warrior from WoW? A Tank Class with high mobility is what I am looking for.

    Jedi Guardians/Sith Warriors are designed to work like WoW Warriors. I don't know about high mobility, though, they've just got one charge, but otherwise, mechanically and skill-wise, they're a pretty direct copy.

    Thanks, I'll check them out. Watch some youtube videos and what not to see if the Gameplay looks like something I would enjoy.

    I do believe Guardian/Juggernaut has 3 charges if you're tank specced. Force leap, then Zealous leap which is basically a copy of force leap gotten at level 20, then defender's leap at level 50 which leaps you to an ally and makes them take 20% less damage for so many seconds. It's one of the things I'm most excited about with the class, because i love charging around.

    Oh okay, so just like Charge, Intercept and Intervene. Perfect.

  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    Joshmvii wrote:
    Buddies wrote:
    reVerse wrote:
    Buddies wrote:
    I am starting to have a fleeting interest in this game, which may grow over the next couple weeks.

    It took me a while to find the class I enjoyed most in WoW, the Protection Warrior. I tried playing a Death Knight and I just couldn't go past level 70. Death Grip just felt flat out wrong to me. I wanted to be in everythings Face whenever I wanted, not bring something to me whenever I wanted. A brief glimpse through this thread makes it sound like a lot of the Tanks have a similar mechanic to Death Grip to close distance instead of Charge.

    Are there any Tank Classes that play similar to the Protection Warrior from WoW? A Tank Class with high mobility is what I am looking for.

    Jedi Guardians/Sith Warriors are designed to work like WoW Warriors. I don't know about high mobility, though, they've just got one charge, but otherwise, mechanically and skill-wise, they're a pretty direct copy.

    Thanks, I'll check them out. Watch some youtube videos and what not to see if the Gameplay looks like something I would enjoy.

    I do believe Guardian/Juggernaut has 3 charges if you're tank specced. Force leap, then Zealous leap which is basically a copy of force leap gotten at level 20, then defender's leap at level 50 which leaps you to an ally and makes them take 20% less damage for so many seconds. It's one of the things I'm most excited about with the class, because i love charging around.

    I had completely missed them having more than one charge. Damn, now I want to play them, too...

  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    Zealous leap is focus speced :? So only force leap and guardian leap, which themselves do not solve the knife in a gunfight problem at all. You can't force leap around to keep aggro on two groups if needed.

    Imho, out of LOS will be the jk/sw best friend, except on Tatooine, where you are just dead meat.

    shelak on
  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    Well now I don't want to play them anymore.

  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    The groups themselves are clustered but widespread around the areas. You can't "silence" them to force melee, so your best bet is to dps them down. In the larger areas the problem is worse since the gaps are bigger.

    i'm not saying that it is impossible, just that it can be a bit troublesome when comparing to jedi shadows or ranged tanks.

    So don't let my words change your decision. Play it and experience it yourself.

    shelak on
  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    No I mean because they only get one offensive charge.

  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    Well, you do get a saber throw, two if you count Dispatch.

    shelak on
  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    I fail to see how that's relevant to my interests of charging into a dudes' faces.

    reVerse on
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    I prefer choking beasts twice my size myself.

    EDIT: uh, didn't sound so bad when i wrote it.

    shelak on
  • FerrusFerrus Registered User regular
    shelak wrote:
    I prefer choking beasts twice my size myself.

    :winky:

    I would like to pause for a moment, to talk about my penis.
    Spoiler:
  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    So is there a dps spec for guardian at all? Like, if I don't want to tank at all, can I be viable as dps?

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  • shelakshelak Registered User
    edited December 2011
    Ferrus wrote:
    @CripTonic

    What do you think about the combination of Unleashed 2/2 and Payback 2/2? 10% heal every 90 or so seconds sounds pretty good to me.

    Yeah, looks like some nice synergy but i wonder if it really is.

    Personally i'm only going to get into a second tree after my 31 point talent, so i doubt if it will be of any use on flashpoints. However, i reserve further judgement till i see it in action.

    @Heir viable for solo, not sure for group DPS.

    shelak on
  • BubsBubs Not Burbs ChicagoRegistered User regular
    Absolutely. It's not going to be all that far off from a "real" dps spec either. And if it is, nobody can tell anyway

    LoL: Bubs 23
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    Well, if they abide by their 10% rule, you will be 10% less effective then a real dps.

  • reVersereVerse Never odd or even Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Bubs wrote:
    Absolutely. It's not going to be all that far off from a "real" dps spec either. And if it is, nobody can tell anyway

    That's something I genuinely like about TOR: no combat log. As long as shit dies in orderly fashion, who fucking cares which guy had 12% better DPS than the rest.

    Do or do not, there's no damage meters.

    reVerse on
  • shelakshelak Registered User
    I will have to concede on that one. Not having a combat log or the ability to extract such numbers of the game, may put some people off, but in general it looks like a step for the better.

  • DecomposeyDecomposey Registered User regular
    I would like to make a comment about Pommel Strike. In one post above they said it was worthless, when its far from. It does a great deal of damage, the only caveat being the mob has to be immobile to use it, which is a problem. Unless you are speced into the un-channeled force choke, then pommel strike becomes a very useful high damage ability. to use while you are gaining rage.

    Before following any advice, opinions, or thoughts I may have expressed in the above post, I feel I should warn you: I found Keven Costners "Waterworld" to be a very entertaining film.
  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote:
    No I mean because they only get one offensive charge.

    Well, Force Leap/Charge can be used in combat, so specing focus/rage just gets you yet another charge with it's own CD.

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  • JoshmviiJoshmvii Registered User regular
    Damn, I thought zealous leap was baseline for Guardian. That's a bummer. Having force leap and defender's leap is going to be awesome as hell for huttball though. =)

  • CripTonicCripTonic Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    Ferrus wrote:
    @CripTonic

    What do you think about the combination of Unleashed 2/2 and Payback 2/2? 10% heal every 90 or so seconds sounds pretty good to me.

    Resolute/Unleash is your PvP trinket skill, and no solo fights are longer than 180s (using the skill twice vs. once), so getting Unleashed seems like a bad idea on paper. As far as the 10% HP return, that will cap out at about 1700 HP (or less, most people have about 14k at 50), which is almost nothing. For scale, the largest non-Biochem med packs are like 2400 HP. Any fight where it would be useful, you can just use your 20 min cooldown skill that returns HP and resets the cooldown on your 50% defense skill.

    CripTonic on
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  • PeffPeff Registered User regular
    edited December 2011
    So I'm trying to figure out the place that Swelling Shadows has Assassin tanking. Mainly, it seems like the points should just go somewhere else, specc'd into it, 65% chance to heal for 130 and do 179 dmg to the target. I don't know if there's any information on it scaling or not. If not, it really just seems like you're better off skipping it for Lightning Recovery, like a lot better. Would speccing into Electric Execution increase the dmg and the heal by the 9%? It just doesn't look like its worth it.

    Are you really going to need THAT much healing, especially if using Harnessed Darkness and using Hallow specc'd Overcharge as an "o shit" heal?

    Peff on
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  • eMoandereMoander Registered User regular
    Does anyone who played in beta have any feeling for how the Powertech does DPS-wise? It seems to me that being able to tank or melee or ranged dps would be pretty awesome for allowing flexibility in ops. As long as the dps makes it worthwhile of course...

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  • FoefallerFoefaller Registered User regular
    eMoander wrote:
    Does anyone who played in beta have any feeling for how the Powertech does DPS-wise? It seems to me that being able to tank or melee or ranged dps would be pretty awesome for allowing flexibility in ops. As long as the dps makes it worthwhile of course...

    I would be happy to hear how Powertechs do with leveling and tanking in both DPS and Tank builds as well.

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  • InvisibleInvisible Registered User regular
    Anyone have a good talent list for shadows?

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