[SW:TOR] Tanks like spanking.

GoodKingJayIII

I actually am a new tank, so that's really helpful (I had very minimal tanking experience as a death knight tank, pre Cata). I will definitely put more effort into tagging everything, it's a simple idea but good to know. I think I was getting caught up in the idea of "well, I may be able to tag all these guys, but I can only really hold one the way things are being DPSed. So I should try and hold the one that's being burned down."

Of course, that mentality doesn't account for things like healer threat. It's largely a learning experience for me, both in TOR, and as a tank in general. So the simple is good to hear.

HamHamJ

I don't think you arr supposed to tank that encounter, if by tank you mean all the guys are hitting you.

2+ of the guys should be stunned at all times and you need to keep one guy on you that dps burns down and the remaining guy should be getting hit by short term stuns or just ignored.

Bobble

GoodKingJayIII wrote:

The prime example for me at level thirty one is the second boss encounter for Mando Raiders. Without any real spoilers, it's four guys, and even with cc I find I have to tank at least two. I was constantly spamming my taunt button for one because I couldn't build consistent threat against the other if I were constantly switching targets. Force push definitely came in handy to keep one off the healer as well. But give me one guy to tank and no one can pull him off me.

Regarding that particular fight...

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure at least one of those mobs will drop threat periodically, so don't beat yourself up on that one. It's a shitshow and a half.

Preacher

So yeah if you are a new tank when you are in a group you need to just focus on where the mob hate is being directed and less on the damage being dealt to any given mob. Because especially for pug groups, you'll have overactive dps more often than focus fire and you'll need to constantly be spamming your hits on all mobs.

As a guardian this is harder because you lack the range of a vanguard or even a shadow, so you need to be more aware of your ranged threat moves (like saber toss taunt and I believe blade storm can be hit at a distance). This is also where charges short cooldown and ability to be used in combat really comes in handy, especially with the talent that lets you get a free bladestorm off a charge, you can charge to a loose mob, hit a bladestorm maybe a sundering strike and then start moving back to your previous targets.

Also for strongs and below you can use opportune strike immediately following a charge (if you don't have that yet, you'll get it). It doesn't work on elites or anything above that, but it can build threat/severly damage normals at the start of a fight and its just extra damage gravy.

Arryn

Tab is going to end up being your best friend, and you're going to say a lot of cuss words when tab won't target a given mob (usually due to some weird LoS issue).

Usually I pop a mob with two moves, w/ever I happen to have off cd and then move onto the next.

Other than that, remember to always guard someone. I generally go for w/ever dps is giving me the most headaches.

I really wish they'd get rid of the dead spot for Saberthrow, and increase the range on Stasis just a smidge. Both of those things would be incredibly helpful.

Preacher

Yeah dead zones for ranged abilities are a bit silly. Like shadows get a pull move that only works at 10m+ and its kind of silly to back up away from mobs I'm fighting to grab that one ranged guy thats just not quite far enough away.

Thomamelas

Preacher wrote:

So yeah if you are a new tank when you are in a group you need to just focus on where the mob hate is being directed and less on the damage being dealt to any given mob. Because especially for pug groups, you'll have overactive dps more often than focus fire and you'll need to constantly be spamming your hits on all mobs.

As a guardian this is harder because you lack the range of a vanguard or even a shadow, so you need to be more aware of your ranged threat moves (like saber toss taunt and I believe blade storm can be hit at a distance). This is also where charges short cooldown and ability to be used in combat really comes in handy, especially with the talent that lets you get a free bladestorm off a charge, you can charge to a loose mob, hit a bladestorm maybe a sundering strike and then start moving back to your previous targets.

Also for strongs and below you can use opportune strike immediately following a charge (if you don't have that yet, you'll get it). It doesn't work on elites or anything above that, but it can build threat/severly damage normals at the start of a fight and its just extra damage gravy.

Force Stasis also has range and if it's a mob it stuns then it can make life a lot easier.

Preacher

Yeah I forgot about force stasis, hell it also has a dot component, so even when the stun doesn't fire off (like on an immune mob) the damage still does.

Arryn

Thomamelas wrote:

Preacher wrote:

So yeah if you are a new tank when you are in a group you need to just focus on where the mob hate is being directed and less on the damage being dealt to any given mob. Because especially for pug groups, you'll have overactive dps more often than focus fire and you'll need to constantly be spamming your hits on all mobs.

As a guardian this is harder because you lack the range of a vanguard or even a shadow, so you need to be more aware of your ranged threat moves (like saber toss taunt and I believe blade storm can be hit at a distance). This is also where charges short cooldown and ability to be used in combat really comes in handy, especially with the talent that lets you get a free bladestorm off a charge, you can charge to a loose mob, hit a bladestorm maybe a sundering strike and then start moving back to your previous targets.

Also for strongs and below you can use opportune strike immediately following a charge (if you don't have that yet, you'll get it). It doesn't work on elites or anything above that, but it can build threat/severly damage normals at the start of a fight and its just extra damage gravy.

Force Stasis also has range and if it's a mob it stuns then it can make life a lot easier.

I was going to mention that as well, but the problem (imo) is that Force Stasis' range is actually pretty damn short. You almost have to be on top of the mob to use it.

Thomamelas

Arryn wrote:

Thomamelas wrote:

Preacher wrote:

So yeah if you are a new tank when you are in a group you need to just focus on where the mob hate is being directed and less on the damage being dealt to any given mob. Because especially for pug groups, you'll have overactive dps more often than focus fire and you'll need to constantly be spamming your hits on all mobs.

As a guardian this is harder because you lack the range of a vanguard or even a shadow, so you need to be more aware of your ranged threat moves (like saber toss taunt and I believe blade storm can be hit at a distance). This is also where charges short cooldown and ability to be used in combat really comes in handy, especially with the talent that lets you get a free bladestorm off a charge, you can charge to a loose mob, hit a bladestorm maybe a sundering strike and then start moving back to your previous targets.

Also for strongs and below you can use opportune strike immediately following a charge (if you don't have that yet, you'll get it). It doesn't work on elites or anything above that, but it can build threat/severly damage normals at the start of a fight and its just extra damage gravy.

Force Stasis also has range and if it's a mob it stuns then it can make life a lot easier.

I was going to mention that as well, but the problem (imo) is that Force Stasis' range is actually pretty damn short. You almost have to be on top of the mob to use it.

Pretty much. But it's useful if the mob is peeling off you.

spamfilter

Ok, I have a question about the mechanics of the enure ability for Guardians.

It increases your max health by 30% for 10 secs, but what does that mean?

Say I have 10,000 health, if I use it I'll have 13,000, that's pretty obvious.

But what if I have 5000/10000 health, would I have 6500/13,000, or 8000/13,000? And if after 10 secs I have only 3000/13000 left, would I go down proportionately or would I take a 3,000 hit and die.

Joshmvii

If you have 5000/10000 you will go up to 8000/13000. Then after 15 seconds(should be this if you're talented to tank in the defense tree) the health goes away, and yes, if you're under 3000 when that happens you will die.

Raid buffed in my mix of Columi/Tionese tank gear now I have just shy of 30k health for 15 seconds when I pop Enure and my Rakata medpack. It's quite awesome.

spamfilter

What if you win the fight just before the 15secs finish, would you still die?

Joshmvii

I've never had that happen, and in fact have never died from losing the buff(came close once doing a heroic daily quest), but I'd imagine even if you dropped combat you'd still die if you had less HP left than you lose when you lose the buff. It's really a terrific tank cooldown, because it works as a heal essentially, the healer just has to make sure you're high enough before it drops. Now that it's on a 90 second CD it's even better.

GoodKingJayIII

Joshmvii wrote:

If you have 5000/10000 you will go up to 8000/13000. Then after 15 seconds(should be this if you're talented to tank in the defense tree) the health goes away, and yes, if you're under 3000 when that happens you will die.

Raid buffed in my mix of Columi/Tionese tank gear now I have just shy of 30k health for 15 seconds when I pop Enure and my Rakata medpack. It's quite awesome.

I noticed this. That makes no sense. The hit points should only disappear if they haven't taken the damage to burn them off. It's supposed to act as a cushion, but there's a non-zero chance that if you pop it, you just end up being a liability.

Arryn

GoodKingJayIII wrote:

Joshmvii wrote:

If you have 5000/10000 you will go up to 8000/13000. Then after 15 seconds(should be this if you're talented to tank in the defense tree) the health goes away, and yes, if you're under 3000 when that happens you will die.

Raid buffed in my mix of Columi/Tionese tank gear now I have just shy of 30k health for 15 seconds when I pop Enure and my Rakata medpack. It's quite awesome.

I noticed this. That makes no sense. The hit points should only disappear if they haven't taken the damage to burn them off. It's supposed to act as a cushion, but there's a non-zero chance that if you pop it, you just end up being a liability.

It's situational. It's not an all the time CD like Saber Ward. It's mostly for things like: a) when you're low and your healer needs a second to catch up or b) you know you're about to take a large damage spike. More endgame boss type tanking stuff.

WoW had an ability similar to this called "Last Stand". I didn't use it every fight, but there were plenty a boss that we managed to kill because of it.

Rakai

spamfilter wrote:

What if you win the fight just before the 15secs finish, would you still die?

If you have under 3k hp, you don't die in combat or out. You just get left with 1hp so any dot or someone sneezing on you will kill you.

Joshmvii

Enure is an incredible cooldown, and should be popped pretty much any time you drop below 50% health and it's available. It heals you and gives the healers time to catch up well before the 15 seconds it takes for the extra HP to wear off.

Decomposey

Arryn wrote:

WoW had an ability similar to this called "Last Stand". I didn't use it every fight, but there were plenty a boss that we managed to kill because of it.

My only complain about it is it doesn't have the same graphic Last Stand did, turning the user giant and red, which makes it pointless for me to macro (if I could macro) it to yell 'Red Warrior needs food badly!' every time I used it.

It's the definition of an 'oh shit' button. It won't sustain you through the fight, and you can go through stuff never hitting it at all. But when your health dips to uncomfortable levels, and you know your healer just got knocked back, and your brain scream 'Oh shit!' it's the perfect ability to use.

Badwrong

Joshmvii wrote:

If you have 5000/10000 you will go up to 8000/13000. Then after 15 seconds(should be this if you're talented to tank in the defense tree) the health goes away, and yes, if you're under 3000 when that happens you will die.

Raid buffed in my mix of Columi/Tionese tank gear now I have just shy of 30k health for 15 seconds when I pop Enure and my Rakata medpack. It's quite awesome.

edit: I must have been looking at it wrong, you do lose the HP. Someone needs to test if you can die from it...

I like using it with the frenzies on forman crusher in hard KP. Just gives healers some breathing room. Then alternate other cooldowns like rakata medpac and invincible. Also fucks with people in PVP if doing the medpac+endure pain for 34k HP... then when it wears off use invincible so they still wonder why their damage sucks so bad suddenly.

Joshmvii

You cannot die from losing the HP. It was mentioned before, and now I've seen it first hand, but when Enure wears off if you're under the amount it gave you it'll put you at 1 health.

GnomeTank

Last Stand in WoW did the same thing, it couldn't directly kill you, just dropped you to 1 HP.

GoodKingJayIII

I think I get it. I'm 34, way up the Guardian Defense tree, and whenever I fight something I shouldn't, I tend to just stun it to death and take almost no damage. It's pretty fun.

Badwrong

So we took out Hard Mode Soa last night. Normally on our raid/ops night we do HM KP clear, then with the time we have left as much of HM EV as we can... so usually not many tries on Soa, since we aren't trying to make raiding/ops a "job". It only took us two tries last night though, and 5 merc DPS made it pretty simple.

But the DPS really has never been an issue, its that transition from the second fighting phase to the second falling phase. People thrown at the wrong time, or mind trapped can give them issues as well as lightning balls that are still up during that change. Its really not much harder than normal, which is a joke, but its that single transition that can fuck any group with bad RNG.

As a tank, you really have the smallest part in the whole fight. If the group is doing their job, your lightning ball will just come right to you. On the last phase moving him to the pillars is really the most you do the whole fight.

Also, tanks CAN take the pillar damage when enrage hits. But you have to have the right cooldowns ready... with invincible and endure pain+rakata med (40% less damage, 45% more HP), the pillar puts me at about 20% life. My operation buffed life is over 23k, and with rakata med+endure pain its 34K... so if the pillar is putting me that low with those defensive cooldowns going, its hitting for more than 50k before that 40% reduction of invincible. (very approximate math BTW)

Bobble

Badwrong wrote:

5 merc DPS

0_o Please tell me it was 16-man at least, though that number would be more appropriate with, say, 40-man groups

Badwrong

Bobble wrote:

0_o Please tell me it was 16-man at least, though that number would be more appropriate with, say, 40-man groups

Nope... 8 people venue. Thats just what signed up for the operation, wasn't planned at all. We usually have 2-3 mercs, but people who usually are there couldn't make it.

Hard Mode Soa we rarely have time for since we do all of Hard Mode KP first, since an off-tank is needed for 1 boss on KP we decided to just do Hard EV last night since no off-tank is needed at all... that meant more time to try him and get a good RNG during the transition.

Comradebot

So... what should I really be looking for as a tanking Vanguard? Defense or Shield+Absorbtion?

I've mostly been pumping my mods with the shieldness (and it's worked pretty well, I can stand up to some silly odds), but at the same time... the shield pops up more often, but it only reduces the amount of damage. Defense means I have a shot to completely ignore it. I'd wager there's a sweet spot where you can get the best of both, but I'd like to know the thoughts from some others.

Joshmvii

I do believe as a Vanguard you're trying to get close to or up to the 50%/50% caps on shield/absorb and having less defense. I know as a Guardian I have a ton more defense than my Vanguard tanking buddy, but he has more shield/absorb than me.

SanderJK

Google Docs that helps calculate optimum mitigation for vanguard/powertech

The main thing that comes out of that is: Absorb>Defense>Shield under most situations, but they are fairly close together so in many cases better iLvl = better.

Joshmvii

One thing I've noticed on my Guardian, is that now that I'm in a mix of Columi/Rakata tank gear, my defense is so high and into DR that if I can get an augment that is absorption, the 28 rating will give me like 3% of absorption, whereas the same defense would give me like 0.5% at most. Of course, I also have a basically permanent +6% defense during combat so that helps too, but I just kind of play it by ear in terms of def/shield/absorb.

Badwrong

Whatever you do for stats, don't go with all the default mods on rakata. They try to mix so many stats on there, and they replace a lot of the columi tanking ones with accuracy. I assume we need some accuracy, but there isn't some really solid numbers showing we need accuracy on each piece to remove defense/shield stuff.

With full rakata minus 1 piece, I get around 30% defense, then of course the 6% more while fighting and retaliation is up.

Really, I'm not sure if they had the same people making columi and rakata gear at all.

Joshmvii

Yeah, one of my pieces of Rakata tank gear has surge rating on it, which is pretty dumb. I just chalk it up to bad itemization that seems to plague most MMOs in their early life.

Comradebot

Joshmvii wrote:

Yeah, one of my pieces of Rakata tank gear has surge rating on it, which is pretty dumb. I just chalk it up to bad itemization that seems to plague most MMOs in their early life.

I love you can still get lower-leveled blue 2H swords in WoW that have spirit on em'.

Arryn

Joshmvii wrote:

Yeah, one of my pieces of Rakata tank gear has surge rating on it, which is pretty dumb. I just chalk it up to bad itemization that seems to plague most MMOs in their early life.

Wasn't there a post earlier in this thread though about Surge being a good Threat stat?

Javen

Joshmvii wrote:

Yeah, one of my pieces of Rakata tank gear has surge rating on it, which is pretty dumb. I just chalk it up to bad itemization that seems to plague most MMOs in their early life.

Yeah, it's fixable since you can rip out the enhancement that gives it and replace it with the enhancement from another piece, but still, it's plenty dumb to begin with

Sirson

I don't think one piece with Surge on it is bad, it's not a bad stat in it's own rights

Joshmvii

IMO the only threat stat that should show up on tank gear is accuracy. We don't have a high enough crit chance for surge to be a viable secondary stat to want on our gear.

Jephery

Arryn wrote:

Joshmvii wrote:

Yeah, one of my pieces of Rakata tank gear has surge rating on it, which is pretty dumb. I just chalk it up to bad itemization that seems to plague most MMOs in their early life.

Wasn't there a post earlier in this thread though about Surge being a good Threat stat?

That was for Vanguards/Powertechs, who have a +50% crit chance talent for their primary ability. So naturally Surge is their best threat stat.

Badwrong

Awwww ya, full rakata tank gear now. And of course it came with surge on it by default which I remodded.
We managed to 1 shot Soa on hard this time, the patch fixing the mind traps on the transitions made less RNG involved now. Last time we killed him it took a few tries with just the hope that the mind traps didn't do something stupid during the phase change.

ringswraith

Questions, gentlepeople. I've got a consular that I plan on turning into a shadow, with the tank spec. I've seen the suggested spec (31/0/10) and that looks pretty clear, but right now I'm trying to figure out gear.

IIRC, willpower is a consular's main stat. Now if I'm tanking, should I still pile on the willpower or focus on something else? (Endurance comes on everything so I don't think I have to specifically target that stat.)

Speaking of focus, what offhand should I be looking for? (Can shadows even use shields?)

And for item mods, I'm guessing endurance + whatever stat is in answer #1 above. What about power/crit/surge- are any of those things I should look out for?

Thank you kindly.